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India Border Watch: Security and Operations

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shiv
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby shiv » 24 May 2017 06:17

The PRC with Pak problem is not going to be directly military for two reasons
1. There is an agreement in place that is easy for the Chinese but slightly more difficult for India - that is we simply maintain the existing line of Actual control with no attempt to occupy. China is currently happy with this and part of the agreement is that neither side gets its claims. But India squeezed one important thing out of this deal - and that is the LAC should be based on matching strengths - that means that India will continue to build up border infra and strength to match anything that the Chinese bring in. This is causing discomfort to China but there is nothing they can do. In teh last 10 years India has become a different beast and is able to put down forces rapidly and in strength. The Chinese in turn cannot easily bring in stuff - especially in the west - let alone Pakistan. Logistics for them still remains a nightmare. Their current presence in Tibet is not that big.

2. The Chinese can no longer inflict the kind of punishment on India that they did in 1962 easily. There will have to be massive escalation (movement and build up of forces for months - not days) and they could well have their butts kicked after such escalation. This will be bad for Xi.

So China via Pak has, with respect - a small degree of d-shivering and needs to be interpreted in context without blindly imagining that just because China is with Pak - all of China is going to be figthing via Pak. It is important to be precise about what China can actually do rather than saying "China will do x,y.z" via Pak and "must be dealt with". If push comes to shove China cannot easily help Pak.

A combined Chinese Pak offensive is constantly referred to with anxiety and fear without even one chirp about the visible military moves that will have to happen (for months) before any such thing happens let alone the geopolitical circumstances. I personally dislike such speculation in the absence of fleshing out details that indicate knowledge rather than fears

shiv
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby shiv » 24 May 2017 06:30

Rudradev wrote:Xi is a different sort.

Being a different sort does not actually offer him military capabilities vis a vis India that were not available to earlier leaders. In fact Chinese military possibilities via India have shrunk in many ways particularly in the last decade. If the man wants to make an example out of India he has to show an outright victory and the military balance with India no longer holds this possibility open to the Chinese.

shiv
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby shiv » 24 May 2017 06:46

On the China-India border - there are vast areas that simply cannot be easily reached or manned. It is entirely possible for IA or PLA "adventure patrols" to roam freely. Most of these areas are more easily reachable by Indian Army mountaineering/adventure patrols than PLA. Even today a I am sure there are Indian patrols going into China claimed areas and Chinese patrols into Indian areas without detection, but the agreement is that nothing shall be built up in these areas. That is what keeps the peace. India's presence on the Chinese border has become much more robust but it is work in progress. It will only get better given time

The statement that "It will get better" is typically interpreted as "Oh that means we will be screwed if the Chinese attack tomorrow". That is the way of our media - that is they way they twist meanings. But it is not true.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Pathik » 24 May 2017 06:46

Rishi_Tri wrote:
jamwal wrote:Indian Army Conducts Counterstrikes Against Pakistani Posts Along The Line Of Control
By Saurav Jha - May 23, 2017
http://www.delhidefencereview.com/2017/ ... f-control/


Good but still waiting for heads. That report on lapses, operational procedures on why the army and BSF jawans were beheaded is typical bureaucracy speak.

The widow of BSF jawan had said - Dont want compensation but Want 50 Heads. Still waiting for those 100 heads .


The IA action will not result in any heads remaining to be taken. smithereens. we also need to politically maintain that we are a non-barbaric nation.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Thakur_B » 24 May 2017 08:36

This reply does not cut it. Lat year's cross border fire assaults were far more intense.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Kashi » 24 May 2017 08:42

Thakur_B wrote:This reply does not cut it. Lat year's cross border fire assaults were far more intense.


And to an extent unprecedented. Pakis were caught napping since they did not expect such a response.

This year they were probably better prepared, so the response had to be calibrated accordingly.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby SwamyG » 24 May 2017 09:00

Rudraji, China can only use Pakistan as a proxy. Just like it uses NoKo.

The World has the stomach to observe a big country or coalition to beat up small countries. The World cannot watch two big powers beat up each other. Irrespective of Chinese or Indian military capabilities, both or big countries that World will not want to see fighting.

It is no longer 62, still both will want only a small scale war with limited casualties but with more H&D loss.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby SwamyG » 24 May 2017 09:06

What is possible is cyber threat from China, so India has to think about Cyber Borders. Indian experts one hope are already on that job. It pays to keep certain things off the grid.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby aditya » 24 May 2017 09:24

Pakistan releases equal-equal video claiming to have destroyed Indian posts

https://swarajyamag.com/insta/pakistan- ... -its-claim

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby krishna_krishna » 24 May 2017 10:24

Interesting analysis KaranM, but I still believe unless officers are targeted this BAT sh*t will continue, there officers rarely resident border posts.

Secondly I feel bad when Bikram Singh is revered here on this forum specially damage he did to army and TSD officers after VKS? He was part of gang to continue LOS,believe Gen Bikram Singh was also accused of smuggling arms and ivory in collaboration with Pakistan's General Bajwa when they were both on UN duty.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karthik S » 24 May 2017 10:35

SwamyG wrote:What is possible is cyber threat from China, so India has to think about Cyber Borders. Indian experts one hope are already on that job. It pays to keep certain things off the grid.


Indeed, IIRC, China has some 1.2 lakh hackers while we have few thousand. We really need to build up on this.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karthik S » 24 May 2017 13:03

TIMES NOW‏Verified account @TimesNow
Multiple Pak Jet Fighters land near Siachen Glacier, forward operating bases made operational, reports Pak Media


What has got them so spooked.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya_V » 24 May 2017 13:21

Jet fighters can't land near siachen. They can best land at skardu

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby shiv » 24 May 2017 14:33

Karthik S wrote:
SwamyG wrote:What is possible is cyber threat from China, so India has to think about Cyber Borders. Indian experts one hope are already on that job. It pays to keep certain things off the grid.


Indeed, IIRC, China has some 1.2 lakh hackers while we have few thousand. We really need to build up on this.

How are hacker numbers determined? Do hackers identify themselves and belong to a union? It's not that I am denying the cyberwar threat but it is the numbers that bother me. For example I am reminded of the story that the Pakistan air force uses bombs which have feedback - when the bomb bursts it sends a message to the aircraft "17 militants killed" so Pakistan claims after an air attack "!7 militants killed"

How are hacker numbers determined?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Rudradev » 25 May 2017 03:05

Posting this here, not because I believe half of it, but just because I want to see what Shiv says to it :mrgreen:

http://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2017/05 ... an/138129/


Let’s Not Kid Ourselves, India Will Not Win a War Against Pakistan by Raghu Raman

The reasons are many, including China's help accelerating Pakistan's nuclear technology, missile systems, and cyber and drone warfare capabilities.

...

For all the xenophobic war mongering touted in every medium, India cannot “win” a war against Pakistan and the sooner we appreciate this politico-military reality, the more coherent and serious we will sound to our adversaries and the world community. The demands for a “once and for all” resolution of Kashmir/Pakistan emanating from several quarters, which surprisingly includes some veterans—equating India’s non-retaliation with impotence—perhaps don’t factor the larger picture and the stark truth of modern military warfare.

Matter of fact, short of total genocide, no country regardless of its war-withal can hope to achieve a decisive victory with a “short war” in today’s world. As the US is discovering eight years, trillion dollars, and over 25,000 casualties later—in Afghanistan. That era of “decisive” short wars, especially in the Indo-Pak context, is largely over because of several reasons.

Firstly, the much vaunted Indian military superiority is largely an accounting subterfuge. Sure we have more soldiers, tanks, aircraft, and ships than Pakistan, but banking on mere numbers is misleading and irrelevant in military strategy. Pakistan has successfully locked down over 30% of our army in internal counter insurgency roles that not only sucks in combat troops from their primary roles for prolonged periods, but also alienates the local population in the valley.

The major reason for the Pakistani Op Gibraltar’s failure in 1965 was the overwhelming loyalty of Kashmiri locals towards India. Disguised Pakistani troops who had infiltrated into the valley to incite rebellions were caught by the locals and promptly handed over to the Indian security forces. Fifty years later, sentiment in the valley is very different. And this “turning move” has been achieved by Pakistan with a ridiculously low investment of merely a few hundred terrorists and psychological operations.

Another substantial part of our army is locked down in the North East insurgency and we are still trying to build adequate force levels against our much stronger adversary all along our border with China. India’s Chinese front is in a tenuous state because of decades of neglect and the massive infrastructure China has built to be able to mobilise several divisions in a matter of hours into that theatre. :(( :((


Most worryingly, Pakistan and China have achieved military interoperability, which is the capability of their two armies to execute joint missions against a common target. Decades of mutual cooperation, technology transfer, training, equipment sales, and of course a common enemy, have welded our two adversaries into a formidable joint force. Pakistan’s accelerated achievements in nuclear technology, missile delivery systems, logistic supply chain of equipment, and spares as well as new-age technologies such as cyber and drone warfare are all the result of cooperation between the two countries. :eek:

In contrast, India has not even been able to integrate its three services, what to speak of assimilation with political leadership, industry, academia and indigenous defence capabilities. As Praveen Sahwney points out in his book “The Dragon on our doorsteps,” India has primarily focused on developing its military arsenal whereas Pakistan and China have been developing war waging capabilities, which is a synthesis of many strengths other than just military force. :oops:

Secondly, Pakistan has leveraged its geopolitical position far more strategically than India has been able to. India has traditionally relied on moral high ground to achieve global consensus and support. In the aftermath of the Cold War, the world’s largest democracy, wedged in between a communist adversary and a rapidly radicalising Islamic nation got global mindshare and sympathy. Though none of that translated into meaningful benefits for India per se, our foreign policy continues to have the hangover of “doing the right thing.” Unfortunately, in the harsh reality of the contemporary world that doesn’t count for much.

Russia, our traditional all-weather friend, has far greater bonhomie with both the US and China than ever before. :shock: The US needs Pakistan to achieve closure in Afghanistan so much so, that despite the blatant betrayal of shielding America’s public enemy number one, Osama bin Laden, the US has no choice but to continue supporting Pakistan financially and militarily. On the other hand Pakistan’s dependence on the US has reduced dramatically with China filling in the gap.

China’s “One Belt One Road” project coursing through the length of Pakistan has pretty much made the two permanent partners. China’s economic aspirations and access to the Arabian Sea through Baluchistan ending at Gwadar port is a strategic masterstroke by Pakistan and China. Not only is it a win-win for them but it is also a “lose-lose” for India for many reasons.
:(( :((


Firstly, the only area where India could try a meaningful riposte to Pakistan-sponsored insurgency would be Baluchistan. By tying in China’s stake of keeping Baluchistan under control, Pakistan has made it extraordinarily difficult for India to make any aggressive move in its south without threatening Chinese interests. The same is true for any Indian military action in the theatres of Kashmir or Punjab. Any Indian operation that endangers thousands of Chinese citizens working on the CPEC project in Pakistan will draw the wrath of China and give them the loco standi to initiate hostilities against India. So beyond shallow skirmishes all along the border, India really has no operational or strategic options without the risk of drawing China into a two-front war.

Pakistan has correctly appreciated that the force levels which India will be able to muster against it will be more or less evenly matched, and in the event of Indo-Pak hostilities, they can depend on China for their logistics supply chain as well as splitting the Indian armed forces’ resources and focus by mobilising PLA divisions along the border with India. This would in effect, pin down a substantial part of the Indian Army’s reserves to cater for the eastern front.

Also, now there too many stakeholders dependent on the success of the “One Belt One Road”/CPEC project and any disturbance in this area would be attributed to India’s truculence rather than Pakistan’s interference into Kashmir. China combine has positioned the OBOR as an Asian developmental initiative, whereas the Kashmir problem has been positioned as a bilateral local issue—by none other than India itself. So, rather than looking like the visionary big player in the Asian growth story, India is at the risk of being perceived as the obdurate party incapable of setting aside bilateral issues for the larger good of the region. And with dark clouds hovering over their own respective challenges, none of the world’s major powers, the US, UK, Russia or France, will have the gumption to interfere militarily in an Indo-Pak conflict that has the potential to draw in the fifth permanent member of the UN Security Council.

...

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Bheeshma » 25 May 2017 03:30

That farticle is a complete joke. :rotfl:
India and US or India and Russia have far more inter-operatability than pakis and chinese. This is a paid farticle cause India's objection to cpec and refusal to join obor has pakis and chinese shitting bricks. The projects are simply not viable without India.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Rudradev » 25 May 2017 04:07

Yeah. Interoperability, because all the double chinned Pakjabi afsars have learned to flawlessly read instructions written in Kanji pictograms. "Eh button d'baa dey, Chow Mein niklega" :rotfl:

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby shiv » 25 May 2017 06:39

Rudradev wrote:Posting this here, not because I believe half of it, but just because I want to see what Shiv says to it :mrgreen:

http://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2017/05 ... an/138129/

Bah. Worthless. It would take a whole counter article to do point by point rebuttal. But it looks like the article has been deliberately worded that way to generate interest and controversy and hits. There has to be a deliberate editorial plan to cause a section of people to react - which attracts viewers as it gets shared on social media.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karan M » 25 May 2017 06:40

Well said Shiv-ji. The deliberate editorial plan is to deflect attention from further action on TSP towards "nothing can be and should be done".

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby yensoy » 25 May 2017 06:58

It's called a "straw-man argument". We are not trying to fight a bloody conventional war (which arguably is unwinnable given the huge hit to economy, and threat of nukes). We are fighting sub-conventional. The end game is to drive the enemy to ruin without crossing the border. Once that point is understood, you can essentially toss out the article.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby rsangram » 25 May 2017 09:13

Any truth to that article is a damning indictment of the anti-national Congress governments over the past decades, not the army or a 3 year old government.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Kashi » 25 May 2017 10:39

What's more damning is that such people were in charge of or closely linked with the affairs of our national security for many many years.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Philip » 25 May 2017 11:05

Yes, and Pak has no forces on the Afghan front either,they're all waiting to cross over and teach us another ('71) lesson what?!!

The news that 3 Chinamen have been abducted in Baluchistan is v.god news indeed.This must happen on a regular basis all over Pak! Beijing must understand that tying to finger India through Pak,will result in it being hurt badly.We should make the situ so dififcult for OBOR to materialise,that investors will flee from Pak. While on the border/LOC,constant arty shelling and MBRL fire are required to make the Paki army pay in casualties/fatalities every day.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karthik S » 25 May 2017 11:16

Unless the abducted people happen to be some VIP, the cheen will not even bother. In that sense, there is no diff between them and pakis.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby partha » 25 May 2017 11:22

"Govt supports Army's actions at LoC", says a news report. I think the statement is from DM Jaitley. It's a weird statement. Why should the obvious need to be stated? This is not Pakistan where rogue army controls the Govt and acts independently. In India, army's actions are a result of Govt's decisions so there should be no need for such statements and clarifications.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby partha » 25 May 2017 11:52

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/iaf-rejects-pakistans-claims-of-flying-jet-fighters-near-siachen/articleshow/58821529.cms
Pakistan jets fly near Siachen, 'Indian air space not violated'

GoI should issue guidelines to media on how to report in these cases. PAF jets may have flown over Skardu but technically it's Indian airspace and hence it was violated. All of Gilgit Baltistan and PoK airspace is Indian airspace.

How about "active Indian airspace was not violated"?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karthik S » 26 May 2017 20:18

Delhi Defence Review‏ @delhidefence
NEWS: Assam Rifles repatriates 338 Myanmar refugees back home.


What about rohingyas and BDs?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Guddu » 27 May 2017 08:24

partha wrote:"Govt supports Army's actions at LoC", says a news report. I think the statement is from DM Jaitley. It's a weird statement. Why should the obvious need to be stated? This is not Pakistan where rogue army controls the Govt and acts independently. In India, army's actions are a result of Govt's decisions so there should be no need for such statements and clarifications.


Under MMS, this was not the case, and hence the need to clarify.

krishna_krishna
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby krishna_krishna » 27 May 2017 08:49

This is what IDF does to killed terrorists zdesh should also start dong this :


http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/26044 ... greenfield


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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Amber G. » 27 May 2017 12:20


Marten
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Marten » 27 May 2017 12:45

Abu Zarar dead -- I hope they cremate him then and there after taking samples for genetic verification.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby g.sarkar » 27 May 2017 13:19

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/tral ... 64237.html
Burhan Wani successor Sabzar Ahmad Bhat gunned down by Army in Tral, 6 other militants killed in Baramulla
Security forces in Kashmir's Tral shot down Sabzar Ahmad Bhat, a top Hizbul Commander who is believed to have succeeded Burhan Wani, and another militant in an encounter going on since Friday.
Forces have shot down Sabzar Ahmad Bhat, a top Hizbul Mujahideen commander, in an encounter in Pulwama's Tral that has been going on since Friday.
Sabzar Ahmad Bhat is widely believed to have succeeded Burhan Wani, whose killing last year sparked months-long unrest and violence in Kashmir.
Apart from Bhat, another militant has been killed and at least one is believed to be trapped in the area under barrage of heavy fire from the Indian security forces. The encounter has been going on since Friday night after Hizbul terrorists ambushed an Army patrol party of 42 Rashtriya Rifles at Saimooh village in Tral around 9pm. According to reports, Sabzar made a final phone call to his family members when he got injured and asked for forgiveness.
He said, "Forgive me if I'm wrong. We have been cornered."
In another audio clip that India Today accessed, an aide of Sabzar Bhat is heard saying, 'As you know there is an encounter going on in Tral. Sabzar bhai (brother) is trapped in that encounter.' It was not immediately clear who the aide was or with whom he was speaking.
Meanwhile, at least six suspected militants have been killed in Baramulla area after the Army foiled an infiltration bid in the Rampur sector on late Friday night. Four were killed between Friday and Saturday while two more militants were gunned down today morning.
According to an Army statement, forces laid an ambush for the militants at around 7.30 pm on Friday after receiving specific input about their movements inside Indian territory.
.......

There is a nice before and after picture of Shri Sabzar in the article.
It seems now even the Indian army is servicing them on Fridins so that there no hitch on receiving the 72s.
Gautam

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Amber G. » 27 May 2017 13:53

g.sarkar wrote:http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/tral-encounter-top-hizbul-mujahideen-commander-sabzar-ahmad-bhat-killed-indian-army/1/964237.html
There is a nice before and after picture of Shri Sabzar in the article.
It seems now even the Indian army is servicing them on Fridins so that there no hitch on receiving the 72s.
Gautam

IMO: The "after photo" in above article is an old photo from 2015...( Gurdaspur attack). for example here: https://twitter.com/67fce2225cdb4b0/status/625551077622984704/photo/1

Karthik S
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karthik S » 27 May 2017 15:00

Image

sabzi baat

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby DrRatnadip » 27 May 2017 20:13

Is it mandatary for army to hand over dead bodies of killed terrorist to relatives? Crowd gathering at their funerals is used by antinationals to propogate hatred against India..

ragupta
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ragupta » 27 May 2017 20:20

Dip them in pig fat, and sent them to electric crematorium.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Sid » 27 May 2017 20:33

Why he is even being advertised? Just get rid of him without any declaration

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby prahaar » 27 May 2017 20:35

Sid wrote:Why he is even being advertised? Just get rid of him without any declaration


Jungle mein mor nacha kisne dekha. There is a method behind this madness of transparently sharing his death photos.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby darshan » 27 May 2017 20:49

Sid wrote:Why he is even being advertised? Just get rid of him without any declaration

+1. There should be a simple webpage with a list of targets to be eliminated with each elimination being strike out. No brownie points for taking high roads.

There should be 24/7 messages being sent out through various media about paki atrocities to bengalis, baluchis, afghanis, etc.


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