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India Border Watch: Security and Operations

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shiv
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby shiv » 10 Feb 2018 19:44

https://twitter.com/TimesNow/status/962327155723010048
Two Jaish e Mohammad shitholes in military fatigues attacked an army residential camp. 5 women and a child have been hurt by the PakIslamic mofos. Two men killed and so far two terrorists killed

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Kashi » 11 Feb 2018 10:09

Three terrorists dispatched to jahannum, but we have lost 5 brave citizens on our side, 4 of whom were off duty personnel. At least 2-3 more terrorists believed to be holed up.

The same camp was attacked in 2013.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 11 Feb 2018 11:14

Kashi wrote:Three terrorists dispatched to jahannum, but we have lost 5 brave citizens on our side, 4 of whom were off duty personnel. At least 2-3 more terrorists believed to be holed up.

The same camp was attacked in 2013.

Is this different then the two terrorists ?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Kashi » 11 Feb 2018 11:47

Lots of conflicting reports coming in from the ground. Three terrorists have been gunned down and six on our side (5 jawans and 1 civilian- father of one of the jawans) were sadly martyred in this attack.

The firing has stopped, but more terrorists are believed to be holed up, anywhere from between 1 and 3. Cordon ops are going on. We'll find out soon enough.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 11 Feb 2018 12:21


nam
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby nam » 11 Feb 2018 12:36

Before we jump in and blame army for lax security , start blaming ourselves, keep in mind this is a Pakistani attack on us.

If we want to build walls and stay inside, we better disband the army. No army, no lives lost.

The response is not building walls, but firing brahmos in to mudrike.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Philip » 11 Feb 2018 14:25

I am deeply saddened as yet again our soldiers have laid down their lives for India....but in what cause? To repeat ad nauseam give "befitting replies" in parliament? I've asked from the inception of BED ' over two decade ago, why even a diplomatic slap in the face of Pakistan hasn't been done, sanctions applied, cross border trade banned, visas denied, so too overflights, etc., etc. The same with provocations from China , stapled visas, creeping expansion on our borders, etc.

I now have had a little glimpse into why we do not penalise both nations aimed at destroying us.Vested interests at the highest level making huge amounts of money in backdoor deals.Remember that classic film "Network"? Where the corporate boss tears into mad anchor Howard Beale for disturbing the primal forces of nature when he criticised a planned merger of the group. He tells him that there are no longer nations and national interests but corporate." General Motors, General Electric, AT&T,US Steel, etc." Similarly in India too, vested financial int, corporate groups and other inerests hold sway over national.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Sid » 11 Feb 2018 14:51

It’s a Kaluchak attack rerun, these types of brazen attacks will continue to happen unless we raise the stakes much higher for them.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Bart S » 11 Feb 2018 16:18

nam wrote:Before we jump in and blame army for lax security , start blaming ourselves, keep in mind this is a Pakistani attack on us.

If we want to build walls and stay inside, we better disband the army. No army, no lives lost.

The response is not building walls, but firing brahmos in to mudrike.


Are you serious? We shouldn't build a basic perimeter wall around a highly threatened army camp? One with not only army personnel but their wives and children? Go check out any US or Israeli military establishment in even a moderate threat environment. A solid perimeter is a basic minimum requirement, not having it is just reckless and deliberate endangerment of our soldiers lives.

NOBODY here is blaming the Army. If 'ourselves' includes the various GOIs over the years (and society at large that voted for them and didn't hold them accountable), then they are absolutely worthy of blame. If a fraction of the money spent on sundry bribes and scams had been spent for this purpose, a lot of our soldiers lives would have been saved. And the fact that the GOIs over the decades have decided to adopt a defensive instead of a more proactive and aggressive posture, hence in a way just inviting Pakistan to keep attacking us while we labour on under the assumption that we can absorb this stuff, only makes this neglect more criminal.

Absolutely by all means fire missiles into Pakistan, everyone will support that. But don't endanger our soldiers lives due to criminal neglect! These are people who would proudly volunteer to face near suicidal odds if required, it doesn't mean that we should take it for granted, let it at least not have to come to that situation purely due to our shameless neglect.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby abhijitm » 11 Feb 2018 16:40

Feeling so sad and angry. Again and again they are targeting families. There must be multi layered security apparatus around the residence and schools inside the camp. This simply cannot go on.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby chetak » 11 Feb 2018 17:08

nam wrote:Before we jump in and blame army for lax security , start blaming ourselves, keep in mind this is a Pakistani attack on us.

If we want to build walls and stay inside, we better disband the army. No army, no lives lost.

The response is not building walls, but firing brahmos in to mudrike.


You object to walls as perimeter security??

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby nam » 11 Feb 2018 17:23

Bart S wrote:Are you serious? We shouldn't build a basic perimeter wall around a highly threatened army camp? One with not only army personnel but their wives and children? Go check out any US or Israeli military establishment in even a moderate threat environment. A solid perimeter is a basic minimum requirement, not having it is just reckless and deliberate endangerment of our soldiers lives.



The self styled hyperpower and reference point for everything, lost 6 harriers in Afghanistan with it's high security barrier in a very hot zone. Just shows nothing is impregnable. You built a wall, the terrorist will get a rpg/ied next time and blow the weakest part.

There are 3000 forces related bases in our country. How may will you wall off? You wall off 1000 of them, they will hit the 1001th one. If not forces, they will hit our scientific establishment, government buildings etc.The list is very long.

Why should our forces live in fear in their OWN country inside walls. No one is saying keep everything open. However there is a difference common sense and defensive mindset.

There is no deterrent because there is repercussion. If there is no deterrent, no walls will protect anyone.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby nam » 11 Feb 2018 17:25

chetak wrote:
nam wrote:Before we jump in and blame army for lax security , start blaming ourselves, keep in mind this is a Pakistani attack on us.

If we want to build walls and stay inside, we better disband the army. No army, no lives lost.

The response is not building walls, but firing brahmos in to mudrike.


You object to walls as perimeter security??


No, objecting to blaming Army for not having a wall every time there is attack. Object to blaming ourself for every attack and letting Pakis off the hook.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Vips » 11 Feb 2018 17:27

We are a free and open society not a security state like North Korea where movement of people is restricted. These attacks on or bases will continue to happen and lives will be lost no matter how many layers of security is added. Only way to eliminate this is to make the costs unbearably high for the enemy. There should be a more then equal and incrementally very high response on the other side. The Pakjabi army and its dear ones should be targeted. This is the only option.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby nam » 11 Feb 2018 17:47

14 year old shot at remains critical. A pregnant lady was shot at, luckily gave birth to a child safely.

If we cannot respond, when our kids and pregnant woman are targeted, then nothing can move us.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby chetak » 11 Feb 2018 17:53

nam wrote:
chetak wrote:
You object to walls as perimeter security??


No, objecting to blaming Army for not having a wall every time there is attack. Object to blaming ourself for every attack and letting Pakis off the hook.


every army/military installation in other states has walls for perimeter security but not in cashmere??

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby abhijitm » 11 Feb 2018 18:15

nam wrote:14 year old shot at remains critical. A pregnant lady was shot at, luckily gave birth to a child safely.

If we cannot respond, when our kids and pregnant woman are targeted, then nothing can move us.

It is prevention more important than reaction. How the hell those scums can come so close to those families? We can always kill 100 pakistanis in retaliation but loss of family members very inside an army camp is demoralizing for soldiers. That's what they want to achieve.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Deans » 11 Feb 2018 19:22

There are practical difficulties in trying to secure defense installation in India. They exist in very close proximity to civilians (even ignoring encroachments, which are rampant). for e.g from any of the tall buildings within 200m of the Naval base in Mumbai, attackers can fire RPG's with an excellent view of their targets. Many of our IAF bases are also used for civil aviation. Civilians are allowed to travel on roads through army cantonments. These are realities we have to live with. in contrast, if one approaches within 50m of a perimeter wall of a US base in Afghanistan or Iraq they will be shot.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby chetak » 11 Feb 2018 19:42

obviously, the jehadis and the rohingyas were watching.


twitter



Govt needs to answer why the Sunjuwan Military Station in #Jammu was not properly sealed with proper thick walls and fencing on all sides. Look at how tin sheets were kept to seal the boundary apart from the old brick wall. We can’t risk lives of Army personnel, their families.

Image

Image

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Khalsa » 12 Feb 2018 02:15

Sid wrote:It’s a Kaluchak attack rerun, these types of brazen attacks will continue to happen unless we raise the stakes much higher for them.

aye it reminded me of that

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby fanne » 12 Feb 2018 05:39

Fact of the matter is, it has nothing to do with stakes raising or secularism or Islamism ...maybe it is all, but the bottom line is it is either them or us, sooner we realize it and then work towards ending this (from the root, where war is just one option, maybe the required one and the last one), the better it is. And yes it is doable.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby manjgu » 12 Feb 2018 06:14

Deans ..well said. Its not about constructing a wall ... u have to man it...protect it..else a even a half trained man can breach it..how many walls will u construct? its virtually impossible to secure all areas... children go to school..families go to MH for treatment...etc.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby vasu raya » 12 Feb 2018 08:30

Does IA have any form of Battle Damage assessment after opening mortar or artillery other than UAVs which are more in the classified domain? There is no active effort in showing Paki casualties other than social media and the enemy is hiding his dead.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby pankajs » 12 Feb 2018 08:50

It is not either or but both. You have to do your best on perimeter security at least the basic minimum like a proper wall with electrified fence also take the fight to the enemy.

Even then there will be costs because you can't have 100% defence against an enemy whose sole motivation is to hurt no matter what the cost.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya_V » 12 Feb 2018 10:04

Those Jihadis have not run from the Border to the Army camp, it needs to cchecked who provided sanctuary and transport to these and alogn with thier families need to be quietly eliminated.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby milindc » 12 Feb 2018 11:43

There is a massive effort to upgrade security in all bases. Seems priority is IAF. Tenders floated and work in progress.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby yensoy » 12 Feb 2018 12:36

milindc wrote:There is a massive effort to upgrade security in all bases. Seems priority is IAF. Tenders floated and work in progress.


The most impregnable physical defences are invariably infiltrated by the use of human weaknesses - bribery, coercion and insider subterfuge; these are the aspects which will need work once the physical work is done.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya_V » 12 Feb 2018 16:32

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/pakistan-warns-against-any-indian-cross-border-raid-after-kashmir-attack/articleshow/62884221.cms

Pigs seem to be ready, must take out time and hit them at our time of choosing, take down those 3 Agosta 90B in Karachi harbor or somewhere inbetween. Get some Paki trucks transporting troops, unless we get some major hit, they are goign continue this charade.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby GopiD » 12 Feb 2018 17:55

Aditya_V wrote:https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/pakistan-warns-against-any-indian-cross-border-raid-after-kashmir-attack/articleshow/62884221.cms

Pigs seem to be ready, must take out time and hit them at our time of choosing, take down those 3 Agosta 90B in Karachi harbor or somewhere inbetween. Get some Paki trucks transporting troops, unless we get some major hit, they are goign continue this charade.


This Paki line seems to be a direct challenge to our political and security establishment. After pathankot, we went in for surgical strikes, which was well done and a welcome change from the previous establishment's dossier diplomacy. We also dared the Pakis when we declared it to the world. After a year, we came up with some good videos and reenactments which was all good for the country's morale. However, I thought that just one surgical strike wouldn't really make much of a difference and also I thought that the government oversold it. What would have given us a better outcome is to have a surgical strike after every attack and made surgical strikes into a new normal. Of course it is not easy to ingress and exit without losses, especially when the Pakis are alert and expecting. Also, we should have primed our population for losses in this war of attrition.

If you analyse, its the same kind of attack as pathankot was, but this is even deeper into the hinterland and then the Pakis are coming with a warning to not repeat the surgical attack. They are challenging us with "I will hit you harder and deeper into your country. What are you going to do about it?" I am sure this time they are ready. I think the surgical strikes and the videos have hurt some people's egos in Pak. They are operating under the principle of "One swallow doesn't make a summer." This was expected and hopefully our establishment has gamed this scenario and have a plan ready.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby A Deshmukh » 12 Feb 2018 20:42

Can we use this attack as an excuse and dismantle the rohingya settlement. just send in the bulldozers and destroy overnight.


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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby sum » 12 Feb 2018 21:01

A big thappad is on the way for sure

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby nam » 12 Feb 2018 21:13

We fire missiles in to Mudrike and other terror locations, wait for their response. What will Pakis do

1. Fire assault acros LoC. Can't invade, it is winter.
2. Terror attacks.
3. Invade us across IB.
4. Stand off CM & air attacks.

1 & 2 is already been done.

For 3, will Pakis invade us for the sale of some cannon fodder? If they do well & good. Something we are waiting for.

For 4, we will respond in kind. As in (3) everyone will be calling for ceasefire. Meanwhile we will carry out intense air attacks on PAF & CM locations, before the ceasefire kicks in. They dont have capacity to destroy our airbases, however we do have capability to destroy theirs.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 12 Feb 2018 23:30

vasu raya wrote:Does IA have any form of Battle Damage assessment after opening mortar or artillery other than UAVs which are more in the classified domain? There is no active effort in showing Paki casualties other than social media and the enemy is hiding his dead.



vasu raya, That's a lose, lose proposition. In Vietnam US started the body count thing and found lots of fudging and causes morale downturn.

Counting enemy dead is not a soldierly thing.

But civilians can do that as psy war and some gain can be achieved.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 14 Feb 2018 01:23

Indranil wrote:
ramana wrote:While I agree, look at Honorary Captain Chaudhry who died at Sanjuwan.

Without weapons he confronted the terrorists and save his family when his quarters were attacked.

Terrorists should fear everyone of the IA.

There are so many tales of bravery. But, for me this one takes the cake really! An unprepared 50 year old unarmed man taking on armed men half his age and saving his family. Doesn't get much better than this.



Think what he would have done with even a pistol.

I think Officers and Subedar rank JCOs should carry side arms in difficult postings like Jammu & Kashmir.

This death should not be in vain.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ashish raval » 14 Feb 2018 04:39

ramana wrote:
Indranil wrote:There are so many tales of bravery. But, for me this one takes the cake really! An unprepared 50 year old unarmed man taking on armed men half his age and saving his family. Doesn't get much better than this.



Think what he would have done with even a pistol.

I think Officers and Subedar rank JCOs should carry side arms in difficult postings like Jammu & Kashmir.

This death should not be in vain.

Guru,
In theory it makes sense in practice if the officer has a heated argument at home all hell can break loose!! This is precisely the argument British uses for not allowing guns at home and this is precisely the argument Americans fail to comprehend and accept. Perhaps they will when their nation will grow older!! Human brain works in mysterious ways to lesser weapons around means less chance of self harm and harm to ones around..alcohol, drugs and guns can be an invitation to death almost.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 14 Feb 2018 04:49

Ok. Even deejay says same thing. In that case can they have armed patrols in hazardous areas and mot just at the gates?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Guddu » 14 Feb 2018 07:17

So the raksha mantri says, there will be a response. Since they have openly said there will be a response, I suppose a surgical strike is not the planned response. So what kind of response might we expect ?. Might we consider taking out the JEM leaders?.If so how ?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Sid » 14 Feb 2018 08:05

ramana wrote:Ok. Even deejay says same thing. In that case can they have armed patrols in hazardous areas and mot just at the gates?


Better solution is to not allow any families in field postings. Temporary visits should be fine, but permanent family quarters in a field posting is big bulls eye for ultras. Families usually are given SF quarters until next posting.

Ideally we should not have any field positing on our own soil, but until that time we can only exercise caution.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Khalsa » 14 Feb 2018 08:19

Sid wrote:
ramana wrote:Ok. Even deejay says same thing. In that case can they have armed patrols in hazardous areas and mot just at the gates?


Better solution is to not allow any families in field postings. Temporary visits should be fine, but permanent family quarters in a field posting is big bulls eye for ultras. Families usually are given SF quarters until next posting.

Ideally we should not have any field positing on our own soil, but until that time we can only exercise caution.


Jammu is not field posting.
Its thriving city ... with schools and hospitals and tourists.
These terrorists are causing use to declare the summer capital of our state to be field.
really ?


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