India Border Watch: Security and Operations

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Prem Kumar
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Prem Kumar » 21 Apr 2019 11:01

Hopefully, Balakot & Modi's free-hand has brought some sense of priority to IA's defense purchases. While its important to prepare for war, its urgent + important to utterly dominate the sub-conventional war.

1) Think of NAG as a bunker buster. Induct & use in the 100s all along LOC. Top-attack will likely require just 1 shot. Don't wait for unobtainium & prepare for a tank-on-tank war that may never come. Induct for the war that your troops are already fighting!
2) Induct CLGM in numbers. Cheap & a deadly tandem warhead. Hit those bunkers again
3) Like Ramana says, start pounding with Dhanush. The first few years' lot should all go to LOC for target practice & fine-tuning in live conditions

There must be a 10 - 20 Km wide DMZ all along the LOC. We will kill anything that moves there.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 22 Apr 2019 02:36

Prem, You are thinking like British Army sand table guys.They have this old fashioned idea from.Afghan wars that sangars are a pile of stones around a hole in the ground. That was true in1st and second Afghan wars.
Now they are what's called Defensive Field Position or DFP. These neo sangars can be with wire mesh around sandbags to concrete cemented stones. Wire mesh defeats shaped charges. Sandbag absorbs near miss blasts. What you need is a fragmenting shell like ERFB with a course correction.fuse to blast and kill the occupants.

Let's come to bunkers. These can.be temporary dugout shelters with timber and concrete slabs go roof. Again shaped charges won't dent them.
Only direct fire from Dhanush type guns.
Also one has to map them and take out the key bunker that provides covering fire to each other.

BTW a NAG costs $1.5M per shot. And if it wont take out a bunker why waste it.

Guided Pinaka has a 100kg warhead with 5m CEP. It should be fired singly to take out bunkers.
Other alternate is the SAAW fired from a helicopter.
Carry 4 SAAWs from a Dhruv which can carry 1000 KG. Shine a laser from.the ground.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Prem Kumar » 22 Apr 2019 10:42

Got it, Ramana.

Why not CLGM too? Both ground and air-launchable. Laser guided, accurate and cheap.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 23 Apr 2019 02:11

CLGM might take out a sangar but not a bunker. Not enough warhead capability.

I am.now convinced, SAAW with el-op seeker launched from Helicopter with ground laser designator.
Khel over.

Hari Nair can a Dhruv carry a Litening pod? And SAAW type bombs?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Vips » 23 Apr 2019 18:34

Work resumes full steam on Maldives coastal radars.

After an initial stumble following political uncertainty in the Maldives, work on setting up a coastal surveillance radar chain in the island nation has resumed full steam, with technical teams from India finishing installation work to get the system operational.

The radar chain—which will link up with similar systems in India, Sri Lanka, Mauritius and Seychelles—will provide a comprehensive live feed of ship movements in the Indian Ocean Region that can be used by friendly navies.

Sources have told ET that seven out of the 10 radars that had to be set up are now being fitted with the latest systems that can relay location information, videos and images live to a central command unit. While the civil work on the seven radars had been completed, the political turmoil before the change of government in November 2018 had held up operationalisation of the chain.

Three other radars had been functional but could only relay AIS (automatic identification system) data and are currently being upgraded by teams from Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL), the sources said. Once complete, these can be integrated into the 600-crore Coastal Surveillance Radar System (CSRS) project.

Image

As part of the plan to increase maritime domain awareness in the wake of the 26/11 Mumbai attack, coastal surveillance radars have been set up in Sri Lanka (6), Mauritius (8) and Seychelles (1). India also set up an Information Fusion Centre – Indian Ocean Region (IFC-IOR) in December that will share real-time maritime information with friendly nations in the region.

In the future, officers from Indian Ocean littoral will be invited for permanent deployment at the Gurgaonbased centre which India believes will help reduce illegal maritime activities by providing intelligence and the means to enforce the law.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Hari Nair » 01 May 2019 13:00

ramana wrote:CLGM might take out a sangar but not a bunker. Not enough warhead capability.

I am.now convinced, SAAW with el-op seeker launched from Helicopter with ground laser designator.
Khel over.

Hari Nair can a Dhruv carry a Litening pod? And SAAW type bombs?


The Mk-IV 'Rudra' (in service) and the LCH (firing trials completed) already have the day-night sensors, designators and associated electronics similar to the Litening pod. These are integral to the helicopter (not in a pod form). The thought about how to take on 'neo-sangars' (nice and apt term!) is very much a priority for the Army, as far as I can comprehend.

A better weapon for the target, given the launch platform being a rotary wing and the terrain being mountainous, may be laser guided aerial rockets, with designation done by the launch or buddy Mk-IVs or LCH. The 70 mm rockets presently in use by these two are unguided. They have inherent good range and accuracy. Addition of laser guidance can be done in a kit form (a sort of a 'plug-and-play' type) to enable the sort of accuracy required to take on the neo-sangars.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 02 May 2019 05:17

So how thick a concrete wall can the 70mm rockets take on?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Hari Nair » 02 May 2019 11:25

Aerial rockets are not specifically designed as shelter penetrators. These are designed to take out max of thin steel armour (vehicles, personnel, materiel). Given that the DFPs are a mix of rocks, steel mesh & cement, the laser guided rocket will need to be lobbed through the gun ports or from the top, if its an top-open type.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby tsarkar » 02 May 2019 12:25

Thermobaric warheads are the best option for such Defensive Field Positions / neo-sangars.

HEAT will be ineffective in penetrating rocks as will HE-FRAG.

The Indian Army uses RPO-A Shmel "flamethrower" for this purpose in COIN operations, though its actually a thermobaric weapon. There is an article by General H S Panag on the cultural nuances & training for using this weapon.

The Arjun also has a thermobaric round as well as a HESH round that causes spalling inside bunkers & sangar killing/injuring inhabitants and damaging equipment.

I think the US too developed a thermobaric round for Hellfire missile based on its Afghanistan experience.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Lisa » 02 May 2019 13:54

^^

Not that well informed but would this be a more effective missile?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-65_Maverick

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karan M » 02 May 2019 15:13

You need penetration before the round either HE-FRAG or Thermobaric, can do its job. Loosely packed sangars may be knocked down by a FAE bomb, but not most. Fuel needs to mix with air.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 514955.cms

The new tank ammunition called 'Penetration-Cum Blast (PCB) and Thermobaric (TB) Ammunition' is specially designed for Arjun Tank and was recently tested by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

IMO PCB is the right kind for fortified targets without easy openings etc.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Manish_P » 02 May 2019 17:11

tsarkar wrote:The Indian Army uses RPO-A Shmel "flamethrower" for this purpose in COIN operations, though its actually a thermobaric weapon. There is an article by General H S Panag on the cultural nuances & training for using this weapon.


Sir, does the IA use/plan to procure the compact & light weight MGK Bur 62mm Rocket Launcher

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 02 May 2019 19:15

Hari as you know helicopters addressing to you.
My thinking is helicopters will be with IAF and IA.
The 2.75"/68mm rockets have a Armor Piercing warhead in addition to HE.
I like your idea of using a guided rocket*.
The AP round can penetrate 3.3 m concrete from published data.
OTH the semi-armor penetrating warhead with explosive is also there.

* I think DRDO can develop a mid-body guidance with INS (MEMS chip) plus IIR seeker(low cost FPGA not the ASAT version) module to attack to the rocket body and interface with the warhead section. So this guidance section would be assembled between the rocket front interface and the warhead aft interface. That way no changes to warhead effects. Also would like a zirconuim liner to the tungsten rod to fry the occupants.

Lisa, the Maverick is quite expensive but it does the damage from its large 125 lb. warhead.

Studies have shown rcc bunkers need 4-6hits from 155mm shell in direct fire. Dhanush and M-777 have about 4km standoff for this.
The quest for Krasnopol was for these sangars and it did not perform as advertised.
(I think due to the low density air at the heights, the Mach effect gives added supersonic lift and need to reduce the charge to make it go slower. That will give the seeker more chance to maneuver. I may be wrong.)

KaranM you are right but that means need to wait for Arjun to be inducted in the mountains.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 02 May 2019 19:16

Manish_P wrote:
tsarkar wrote:The Indian Army uses RPO-A Shmel "flamethrower" for this purpose in COIN operations, though its actually a thermobaric weapon. There is an article by General H S Panag on the cultural nuances & training for using this weapon.


Sir, does the IA use/plan to procure the compact & light weight MGK Bur 62mm Rocket Launcher


I think too many diverse weapons will induce logistics nightmares.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Manish_P » 02 May 2019 21:04

I understand. Just that this particular model is said to be much lighter (at approx 5 Kgs) and does have a thermobaric round (Wiki - 'blast yield similar to 6 kg (13 lb) of TNT, or a 122 mm artillery rocket'). Hence i wondered.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 02 May 2019 21:17

Can you compare the Shemel vs Bur vs Carl Gustav warheads wrt bunker penetration.
Maybe DRDO should look at a thermobaric for Carl Gustav.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Manish_P » 02 May 2019 21:38

^ Couple of years ago I actually had come across a post (not on BRF, probably on the old version of themess.net) where a detailed comparison was done between the Shmel RPO-M & Carl Gustaf Mk3 (not the Bur, possibly because it was not yet fielded to front line forces).

Interesting that you mention about a thermobaric round for the CG. That's exactly what the poster (who claimed to be ex Russian) who had done the comparison mentioned about the advantage of the Shmel over the CG. He was countered by a guy claiming to be ex-US forces saying that the US had that capability with the Mk.153 SMAW

I will see if i can locate the post

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karan M » 02 May 2019 22:13

ramana wrote:
KaranM you are right but that means need to wait for Arjun to be inducted in the mountains.


I meant this PCB warhead is now making its appearance everywhere. SAAW and Arjun as well, as Nirbhay, HSLD, and even the small MLPGM.

See link

And wow, looks like large TB rounds are devastating against concrete as well.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karan M » 02 May 2019 22:26

The much smaller RPO needs to "get inside" the target to cause damage.
https://youtu.be/ybpr3g0v7_8

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 02 May 2019 23:08

Karan M wrote:
ramana wrote:
KaranM you are right but that means need to wait for Arjun to be inducted in the mountains.


I meant this PCB warhead is now making its appearance everywhere. SAAW and Arjun as well, as Nirbhay, HSLD, and even the small MLPGM.

See link

And wow, looks like large TB rounds are devastating against concrete as well.


I like the Akash 65 kg warhead. Wish they put a nose and a tail and make it a small diameter bomb.
or put a rocket motor on the aft.

i remember that issue of TF but forgot all about it.
its a very good primer on warhead design.

The photos give a lot of clues about how they are made.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karan M » 02 May 2019 23:16

This is the other TF which talks about TBRL driven warhead designs and the more advanced EFP ones.

Warheads 2

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 03 May 2019 00:45

Thanks. Its about testing them but gives a good primer on how they work.
Wonder where teh EFP is going to be used. it totally smashed the block wall.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Davidrock » 03 May 2019 06:57

Something interesting in twitter, Congress claiming that they performed a cross LoC strike on 6 Jan 2013.

This is two days before beheading incident of Hemraj on 8 Jan.

The indian raid is also claimed by pakistan.
https://www.dawn.com/news/776811

One interesting observation is I thought India always retaliates. But its good to know that is not the case, we are calling the shots at our will and not only retaliating to violations.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 04 May 2019 00:52

Hari Nair,
Suppose a 68mm AP rocket is fired from a ground launcher towards a neo sangar in direct fire mode?
Off course needs a launcher tub for single rocket mode.
68mm SNEB has 3.0m Concrete penetration demonstrated from 4km range!
Am thinking of a single tube with an electrical trigger and a simple sight mechanism.
Mount this on a truck/4 Wheel drive Jonga type mobile platform.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karan M » 04 May 2019 02:34

ramana wrote:Thanks. Its about testing them but gives a good primer on how they work.
Wonder where teh EFP is going to be used. it totally smashed the block wall.


Directional one for PDV, Interceptor vehicle. The omnidirectional is for Naval anti ship missile recently revealed in DRDO submissions to Parliamentary Committees.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 04 May 2019 10:51

MBB had a naval missile called Kormorant.

It had an omnidirectional warhead. Would burst after entering the ship hull.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Hari Nair » 04 May 2019 11:32

ramana wrote:Hari Nair,
Suppose a 68mm AP rocket is fired from a ground launcher towards a neo sangar in direct fire mode?
Off course needs a launcher tub for single rocket mode.
68mm SNEB has 3.0m Concrete penetration demonstrated from 4km range!
Am thinking of a single tube with an electrical trigger and a simple sight mechanism.
Mount this on a truck/4 Wheel drive Jonga type mobile platform.


We learnt the hard way after 3-4 days of aerial strikes in Kargil ops, that rockets are not matched to the target in question (sangars), two reasons:
- Lack of penetration.
- Accuracy.
Those DFPs are tough little nuts to crack. Even if we manage the aspect of penetration with special penetrator warheads, that rocket has to hit the tiny target. Given that rockets are area weapons, they will need to be steered through a guidance system. Hence laser guidance as one possible solution.
Also peering through a manual sight with a naked eye at a sangar 4 km away - I wonder whether it can even be detected. Hence the need for an optical sight with a bore-sighted designator.
Finally the firing solution - if its high up on a mountain side, the effective range from a lower ground firing point may be lower, or vice versa.

The most effective way I suppose is to drop FAE munitions and wipe out all living creatures on that hillside / area! With that I suppose we will also be having the kind people from Human Rights breathing down our necks!
Last edited by Hari Nair on 04 May 2019 11:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby vimal » 04 May 2019 11:38

Davidrock wrote:Something interesting in twitter, Congress claiming that they performed a cross LoC strike on 6 Jan 2013.

This is two days before beheading incident of Hemraj on 8 Jan.

The indian raid is also claimed by pakistan.
https://www.dawn.com/news/776811

One interesting observation is I thought India always retaliates. But its good to know that is not the case, we are calling the shots at our will and not only retaliating to violations.


Boss, there is a difference between a deep stealthy strike that kills hundreds of pigs vs taking out a post or sniping. I'm sure India and Pak have been attacking each other on LoC for ages but that does not count as "Surgical Strike".

BTW

Image

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby VKumar » 06 May 2019 06:00

Heavy shelling reported in 4 sectors of LOC. Heavy weapons being used.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby brvarsh » 06 May 2019 11:01

vimal wrote:
Davidrock wrote:Something interesting in twitter, Congress claiming that they performed a cross LoC strike on 6 Jan 2013.

This is two days before beheading incident of Hemraj on 8 Jan.

The indian raid is also claimed by pakistan.
https://www.dawn.com/news/776811

One interesting observation is I thought India always retaliates. But its good to know that is not the case, we are calling the shots at our will and not only retaliating to violations.


Boss, there is a difference between a deep stealthy strike that kills hundreds of pigs vs taking out a post or sniping. I'm sure India and Pak have been attacking each other on LoC for ages but that does not count as "Surgical Strike".

BTW

Image


Because Congress is nothing but three Gandhis, the numbers too are multiples of three.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya G » 11 May 2019 17:16

2019 is when we should mark a victory in the border fight

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... LZTnI.html

Islamabad has blinked first in the staring battle along the Line of Control (LoC), the de facto border between India and Pakistan. Under sustained pressure from India, Pakistan has offered to de-escalate tensions along the LoC . The offer to India was made by the Pakistani military “through the institutionalised military channels of communication between the two sides,” a senior official in the Indian security establishment said on condition of anonymity.

The Directors General of Military Operations (DGMOs) of the two countries are regularly in touch and HT learns that the offer may have come during such an interaction.

Pakistan has offered to remove its Special Service Group (SSG) – the special forces of Pakistan – from the LoC and even suggested a “moratorium on the artillery fire from both sides,” a report sent to the Prime Minister’s Office said. HT has seen a copy of the report.

After the Pulwama suicide car bomb attack by a Jaish-e-Mohammed terrorist on February 26, which left 40 troopers of the Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) dead and led to the subsequent air strikes by the Indian Air Force on Jaish’s training camp at Balakot in Pakistan, Islamabad moved special forces and troops along the LoC and the border and “maintained a precautionary deployment”.

India’s pressure on Pakistan was not just along the border, but diplomatic as well. With the US, UK, and France backing India, China agreed to remove its so-called “technical hold” on declaring Maulana Masood Azhar, the emir of JeM, a global terrorist by the United Nations Security Council. Simultaneously, India is also pushing the Financial Action Taskforce (FATF), a global body that watches money laundering and terror funding, to blacklist Pakistan.

In the report, the Indian Army has said that there have been “no infiltration attempts,” and “no attempt to (carry out) cross border tactical action since the Pulwama terror attack.” Interestingly, terror launch pads along the LoC, from which terrorists infiltrate India are empty. “Terror infrastructure in close vicinity of the LoC has been temporarily closed due to overall pressure being maintained on Pakistan,” the Indian Army added in the report.

The thinning out of terror launch pads were reported “from active areas like Poonch and Rajouri as well,” a senior defence ministry official said, asking not to be identified because he is not authorized to speak to the media. “These are clear on-ground signals from Pakistan for de-escalation.” Recently, when formations along the LoC also repaired bunkers --an annual feature to prepare for the monsoons-- the “Pakistan army didn’t interfere,” the official added.

The government had warned the Indian Army and especially the Corps Commanders to take “adequate precautions” to prevent cross-border raids by the Pakistani army after the Pulwama suicide attack. And, while the Indian Air Force was planning air strikes, the Indian Army reinforced its positions along the border and adopted an aggressive posture all along the LoC and the international border. “There were over 100 instances when artillery was used,” the official said and added that “the use of artillery has considerably reduced now.” Pakistan army positions along the border from where Border Action Teams could be launched into India were especially targeted. “In the initial days, several Pakistan Army positions were destroyed, and we have not allowed them to rebuild or these positions,” a second senior official in the ministry of defence said on condition of anonymity.

First Published: May 11, 2019 07:13 IST

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby khan » 11 May 2019 18:20

None of this is “irreversible”

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby darshan » 11 May 2019 18:24

Is the Western border being kept clean just to create pausible denials when they use other routes like SL and Nepal?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Kashi » 11 May 2019 18:47

"Offered to remove SSG"??

SSG begging their govt for a downhill skiing?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Prem Kumar » 11 May 2019 19:14

For an Islamic enemy which is waging a 1000 year war against India, any such offer is a "tactical retreat" while they regroup and come up with new tactics to send terrorists into India.

Let them remove SSGs. We should use this opportunity to fortify our bunkers, arm our troops to the teeth, conduct more cross LOC strikes (because "hey - no SSG"), prevent rebuilding of their bunkers and grab land.

Dear Pakistan: you were beaten black & blue. As victors, we will claim our spoils

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby abhik » 11 May 2019 19:53

If there have been no infiltration attempts let's see if it actually results lower terror activity in J&K, else it's not even a temporary change.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Prasad » 11 May 2019 20:44

Artillery downhill skiing is significant. Looks like we've plastered them.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby rohitvats » 11 May 2019 23:04

The bit about SSG is interesting. By itself, presence or absence of Special Forces means nothing in overall scheme of things when it comes what is happening on LOC.

IMO, we should look at this SSG bit in terms of Border Action Teams (BAT) - which we know are composed of a mix of SSG and specially trained/hand-picked terrorists. The shock value of their action - decapitating Indian soldiers and carrying off with their heads - is much bigger than any tactical value of their raids.

And unlike loss of lives on LOC in fire-exchange or artillery duel, action of BAT(s) is highly inflammatory; they lead to public outrage in India with demands for 'revenge' from our side

Also, we know that Indian Army has developed SOP to actively hunt these BAT(s).

And who knows, how deep are Indian Special Forces going inside POK to neutralize these assets, especially the terrorist component of BAT(s).

In short - what PA is saying that they'll not indulge in any optics on LOC through SSG/BAT, and not try to play the game of one-upmanship. This is quite a watering down of aggressive stance of PA earlier. The artillery duels, and possibly counter special forces raids from our side, are hurting bad.

Apart from casualties, lets not forget it costs money to fight a war. Something, which is in short supply in Pakistan.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby shyamd » 11 May 2019 23:32

It would be good to see full report. In my view, TSP is conducting retreat but with a view to escalate in covert domain at the right time.

What ISI/TSPA will do is to escalate through increase supply of lethality to terror groups in valley - like armoured piercing bullets and mount attacks against security forces/bases.

What GoI will be doing is to wait and watch post passes melting. In my view GoI has to sustain the pressure until TSPA gives up terror completely.

All this is part of the direct covert negotiations at NSA level

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby JTull » 11 May 2019 23:54

They need de-escalation for FTFA upgrade.


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