India Border Watch: Security and Operations

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Vivek K
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Vivek K » 22 May 2020 04:36

Why do we respond in a predictive manner? Why don't Indian troops open other fronts and occupy five Chinese areas in response to one?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Roop » 22 May 2020 12:01

Vivek K wrote:Why do we respond in a predictive manner? Why don't Indian troops open other fronts and occupy five Chinese areas in response to one?


I agree. I think the time has come for India to open up a different front, in an area where China is weaker/not expecting an Indian riposte -- say somewhere in Sikkim, overlooking the Doklam area in Bhutan. Not just start shooting, but start shooting, kill at least a hundred or so Chinese soldiers, capture territory occupied/claimed by them and just keep quiet about it, i.e. don't boast about it in public (but the whole world will know we did it) and leave it for the Chinese to decide if they want to escalate or just sit quietly and lick their wounds. If they do escalate, we should aggressively meet them blow for blow, including the use of air power if necessary. There will never be a better time for this kind of action, from India's point of view. The whole world is pissed off with China, and they only have Pakis and NoKo on their side.

I say this because I think it has now become clear to everyone (even our neta/babu/mantri class) that China will never behave itself and live peacefully on the border unless it is forced to do so (and by that I mean military force, i.e. a real shooting war). I don't really think they have the guts to fight (Chola spoke about this repeatedly during the Doklam scuffle), but if they do, fine -- let's go at it. India cannot go on like this, year after year, petrified about when and where China will take the initiative and push the next pinprick, boasting in their lapdog press about how strong they are while we are perpetually on the defensive (and all the f**king cowardly shivering dhotis in India show up on the internet whining about how the mighty PLA is kicking our azs again).

The thing is (and again, I am repeating what Chola said but others have said so too), the Chinese are not necessary good fighters when it comes to actually risking life and limb against an opponent who can fight back and return fire. They are very good at intimidating potential adversaries, making a lot of noise, fancy military parades, shiny equipment, fierce-looking soldiers strutting about etc., but when push comes to shove, they are very unimpressive soldiers. What self-respecting army in the world will tolerate a junior enemy officer punching one of their majors in the nose and simply retreat peacefully? I hope everyone here remembers the articles posted by a BRF member (maybe it was Manjgu?? Sorry, I don't remember) about the miserable, cowardly performance of the Chinese UN soldiers when confronted by a rag-tag bunch of ganja-chewing African teenage riff-raff. The mighty PLA soldiers fled in terror, abandoning their weapons and equipment to the riff-raff. Arre wah!! Some f**king army!

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby manjgu » 22 May 2020 12:05

yes it was manjgu

manjgu
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby manjgu » 22 May 2020 12:10

some years back I was with the GOC of "balls of fire" division in a place called Tenga.. he took us to the underground ops room with his staff officers who then gave a presentation to a VVIP frnd of mine with huge maps/vid etc. He said the chinese are loath to give a fight as they are not sure of the outcome ... and thats is why this pushing and shoving but no actual fighting. But he did admit somewhat indirectly that the chinese have good intel on their movements. He said with modern devices, they also keep a hawks eye on the chinkis....

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby yensoy » 22 May 2020 13:03

Do not mistake the PLA's abilities for those of the so-called "soldiers" being sent out on UN peacekeeping missions. PLA could very well be sending low-threat convicts in military garb if there is a little bit of money to be made. They are experts at this kind of stuff.

Remember per capita GDP of China is about 4x to 5x of ours. What this means is that their typical soldier makes at least 2x or 3x what ours does. It's a simple matter of economics that they are not going to spare the cream of the crop for peacekeeping missions. They would instead use low cost poorly trained and repurposed sentry guards, soft criminals etc for that kind of work.

We (along with our neighbours) continue to view UN missions as a prestige operation where we should send our best and showcase our abilities. They view it very differently.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby nam » 22 May 2020 14:00

We should stop hoping that we will be able to get through, because the Chinese don't want to fight.

PLA is a ideological army. And we know from history, such armies are confident of their own superiority because of ideology. This leads to over aggression, that we see in those PLA videos.

And China has money and kit. If one company runs away, they will be replaced with another company with more kit. And they will keep doing it for H&D reason.

So instead of hoping for such an outcome, we better pull our self up and start investing in local kit and inducting them.

The line b/w hoping to win on our soldier's bravery and defeat, is the Chinese having one more bullet than us.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby manjgu » 22 May 2020 16:07

the chinkis dont want to fight because they are not sure of outcome not so much as they incompetent to fight.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Mollick.R » 22 May 2020 17:22

Vivek K wrote:Why do we respond in a predictive manner? Why don't Indian troops open other fronts and occupy five Chinese areas in response to one?



I think we are also doing same, but we just keep silent about it & local level IA commanders are exploiting the opportunities.
Maybe its our way of doing the things , but maintaining a low profile at the same time.
It keeps media crazies from bombarding with spicy headlines and manages the escalation ladder.

China's recent activity hindering India's normal patrolling: MEA
By Dipanjan Roy Chaudhury, ET Bureau|Last Updated: May 21, 2020, 11.07 PM IST

NEW DELHI: India on Thursday came out strongly against China over the current standoff at the Line of Actual Control (LAC), asserting that normal patrolling has been hindered by the recent Chinese activity and that no Indian troops have crossed over to the other side of the disputed boundary.

In the first reaction to the build up of troops in the Galwan and Pangong Tso area in Ladakh and the scuffle in North Sikkim, the Ministry of External Affairs (MEA) has said that India remains firmly committed to ensuring its sovereignty and security.

“Any suggestion that Indian troops had undertaken activity across the LAC in the Western Sector or the Sikkim sector is not accurate. Indian troops are fully familiar with the alignment of the Line of Actual Control in the India-China border areas and abide by it scrupulously,” the official spokesperson said.

Adding that all activities have remined on the Indian side of the border, the MEA statement suggests that Chinese troops have altered the ground situation. “In fact, it is Chinese side that has recently undertaken activity hindering India’s normal patrolling patterns. Indian side has always taken a very responsible approach towards border management. At the same time, we are deeply committed to ensuring India’s sovereignty and security,” the statement reads.

Stating that the two sides have established mechanisms to resolve such issues, the MEA has said that peace in the border areas is an “essential prerequisite” for further development of bilateral relations.

Sources familiar with India-China boundary matters told ET that China’s strategy of aggression in parts of Ladakh is an attempt to create leverage in future negotiations with India on LAC clarification and boundary disputes.

The region is part of the disputed territory between India and China and part of dialogue between Special Representatives – National Security Adviser Ajit Doval and China’s State Councillor Yang Jiechi.

China has been creating dual-use civil-military infrastructure in parts of Ladakh as part of attempts to take advantage of the penultimate phase of the Special Representative talks with India on the vexed boundary issue, people who track Sino-Indian ties told ET.

China has been building dual civil-military networks in the whole region, including in Gilgit and Baltistan and Ladakh, according to JNU Professor Srikanth Kondapalli, India’s foremost expert on China.

In the last two decades, China’s military logistics build-up in these areas has been unprecedented, Kondapalli, who has studied the region minutely, said. After India reacted to Chinese plans and started constructing strategic roads over the last decade, the area has become a flashpoint, one of the people who track the India-China relationship said.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/chinas-recent-activity-hindering-indias-normal-patrolling-mea/articleshow/75874753.cms?from=mdr

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Philip » 22 May 2020 18:42

China has now started through its pimp Oli in Nepal,a third area of dispute ,deliberately to keep Indian mil. responses diverted.


Our strategy should be multifarious.Military,diplomatic,economic and strategic ( nuclear arsenal). Immediate beefing up of our forces at trouble spots is par for the course,but it's responsive, a knee-jerk ,firefighting solution where the enemy is orchestrating the music.

This should be met with diplomatic punishment,where we call the shots,in a non-military manner.Banning Chins from entering into India, not even stapled visas, a series of jabs with the left, with a right hook banning all goods imported from China.This will immensely help our MSMEs and local industry and prevent $70 billion from going to China as trade imbalance.
Booting out its envoy and other diplomats would be kissingthe canvas,with the KO blow coming from severing of all relations and recognition of Taiwan and declariing Tibet as "China Occupied Tibet",COT.

However,if we are to play real hard ballx with China we must be prepared for a military clash with it. Megalomaniac XI Gins will havd no alternative but to savf face by attepting to " teach India another lesson".

China's timing for raising tensions is perfect,during the CV pandemic. China deliberately spread the disease worldwide with the connivance of the WHO whores,as if the CV epidemic was contained in China ,the lone nation to br affected greatly,it wouldhave a devastating effect upon its economy. This is why the WHO ,aka the "HU", never brought in travel advisories to stop flights from China until it was too late and the global spread of Cv was secured. We ,thanks to the MOD's unforgivable sloth,red tape and alleged pandering to vested interests, still in our infancy of modernisation and upgradation of the armed forces,are still in an inferior position militarily.However,appeasement of China is totally unacceptable, and the bullet hss to bf bitten.We need to rectify our weaknesses on a war footing taking emergrncy decision-making measures, by-passing MOD babudom taking the armed forces' advice in greater measure,plugging gaps and taking remddial measures for a 3- month military war on both fronts with our mortal enemies.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby nam » 22 May 2020 19:07

manjgu wrote:the chinkis dont want to fight because they are not sure of outcome not so much as they incompetent to fight.


If they are not incompetent and money not being an issue, they will figure out a way to turn the battle in to their favor. The terrain and numbers are on our side, but the kit is not.

For a 3T sized GDP, we probably hold the least amount of 155MM guns. Thanks to our mess in procurement and never ending trials.

One gun is at the mercy of OFB unions and another one at the mercy of army trials or MoD babus!

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Manish_Sharma » 22 May 2020 20:03

TWITTER
@DrApr007

China is placing heavy caliber weapons near Galwan Valley. IA is alert and prepared to counter any misadventure by China. Any miscalculation by China may be very expensive for PLA. Tension may increase in coming weeks.

https://twitter.com/drapr007/status/126 ... 74240?s=19


An Important visit in view of increasing tension with PLA in Galwan valley. Our forces are ready to counter any aggression from PLA or PA along the LoC or LAC.

#TrustIndianArmy

Entire J&K including PoK, Gilgit-Baltistan & Aksai Chin is integral part of India. https://t.co/PP7foeXdFY

https://twitter.com/drapr007/status/126 ... 72864?s=19

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Sumair » 22 May 2020 21:13

nam wrote:We should stop hoping that we will be able to get through, because the Chinese don't want to fight.

PLA is a ideological army. And we know from history, such armies are confident of their own superiority because of ideology. This leads to over aggression, that we see in those PLA videos.

And China has money and kit. If one company runs away, they will be replaced with another company with more kit. And they will keep doing it for H&D reason.

So instead of hoping for such an outcome, we better pull our self up and start investing in local kit and inducting them.

The line b/w hoping to win on our soldier's bravery and defeat, is the Chinese having one more bullet than us.

Money does not win battles, soldiers do. America in Afghanistan is a good case in point. Considering the Chinese demographic change with one child policy, they cannot simply afford to lose and replace companies of men. When was the last time Chinese lost a soldier in a battle? They have used threats coercion as a tool but they do not have the appetite to fight.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 22 May 2020 21:36

Philip wrote:China has now started through its pimp Oli in Nepal,a third area of dispute ,deliberately to keep Indian mil. responses diverted.


Our strategy should be multifarious.Military,diplomatic,economic and strategic ( nuclear arsenal). Immediate beefing up of our forces at trouble spots is par for the course,but it's responsive, a knee-jerk ,firefighting solution where the enemy is orchestrating the music.

This should be met with diplomatic punishment,where we call the shots,in a non-military manner.Banning Chins from entering into India, not even stapled visas, a series of jabs with the left, with a right hook banning all goods imported from China.This will immensely help our MSMEs and local industry and prevent $70 billion from going to China as trade imbalance.
Booting out its envoy and other diplomats would be kissingthe canvas,with the KO blow coming from severing of all relations and recognition of Taiwan and declariing Tibet as "China Occupied Tibet",COT.


Absolutely, all this must be done, the Indian public will be largely supportive and even cheering. But does India have the boldness and the stomach for it all is the huge question.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ChandraV » 22 May 2020 21:58

RKumar wrote:
ChandraV wrote:That's not how it works in real life; even where we have roads all the way to the border, we don't man the border post throughout the year because it is too cold and too barren and nobody is there on the other side; we come back in Spring, and they also come back in Spring. But if they come back earlier and occupy your road or disallow you access to your post, and tell you now this is no longer India, then what?
Is India doing anything similar by purposely extending its patrols to a further north or easterly points than it has since 1962? I don't know, but it doesn't seem likely, or else Chinese would be the one with urgency to settle the border. Instead, they keep taking a few meters and kilometers every summer... without so much as firing a shot or having to make any of their aircraft airborne.


What is stopping us to do the reverse next year? Or after they vacate their positions? We have nationalistic party ruling the country and Services have freedom to operate at local levels. Observe the Sino behaviors and pay back with interest as per our dharma.


I will believe it when I see it.

Right now, the Chinese are coming on a road built by India, and where India supposedly has an "ITBP" sign on the mountainside at Finger 8 and a bunch of permanent housing in the valley between Finger 8 and Finger 7. The Chinese are coming to Finger 4 and telling the INdians to go back to Finger 2.

Either the Indian Express news reporting is wrong, or India already lost access to its own built road as well as its permanent forward post built at Finger 8. And apparently, India only "physically" controls up to Finger 4. So even when our own perception of where the LAC is supposed to be is short of where we build our roads, the Chinese are coming across and stopping our own soldiers on our own roads from patrolling to where they have been patrolling.

Other than the one event in Arunachal Pradesh in the 1980s when we supposedly took a valley from China/Tibet, and they responded and also took some of our land, where has India taken back any land, let along taken something that was Chinese?

Spare me the nationalist party crap. Only facts on the ground matter. BJP is just as capable of giving everything at the negotiating table after soldiers on the ground win hard fought tactical victories, forget anything strategic. What has the Wuhan Summit given to India other than continuing aggression at the time and place of China's choosing?

https://indianexpress.com/article/india ... s-6421271/

"At Pangong Tso, as reported by The Indian Express, the Chinese have deployed additional boats on the lake and stopped the movement of Indian soldiers beyond Finger 2 on the northern banks of the lake – the mountains there jut forward in major spurs, which the Army calls Fingers. India claims the LAC is co-terminus with Finger 8, while the Chinese claim that the LAC passes through Finger 2. The area between the two differing perceptions is the territory which both armies try to dominate through regular patrolling. The Indians physically control the area up to Finger 4."

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ChandraV » 22 May 2020 22:07

Seems to be Indian units are still told to just hold position, never advance. So when the Chinese come all the way to the DSDBO/Road to SSN construciton site two miles down the Glawan River valley and tell Indians to stop construction, we do as we are told and stop, like a wet dog would, and complain. The babus in New Delhi are always happy to make it "go away" by staying mum or just accepting the Chinese line.

This is not a new movie. Classic salami-slicing.

Wake me up when IA/ITBP actually are allowed to use their weapons, their tactics, their local advantages, and take some of these Chinks hostage, or do some other reactionary maneuver...if not take initiative and surprise the Chinks by taking strategic land somewhere along the border.

Everything else is hogwash.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ArjunPandit » 22 May 2020 23:29

Sumair wrote:Money does not win battles, soldiers do. America in Afghanistan is a good case in point. Considering the Chinese demographic change with one child policy, they cannot simply afford to lose and replace companies of men. When was the last time Chinese lost a soldier in a battle? They have used threats coercion as a tool but they do not have the appetite to fight.

assuming that is a recipie for disaster...china or chinese for all her modernaization are fairly patriotic..they may not like CPC but would they like losing to smelly dirty indians....they may not have fought war..but they have the confidence ...thats what makes them wreckless..i am not saying we have to be afraid of them...but assuming them to be weaker will not do us any good..lets do a realistic assessment of numbers that they put in at each confrontation and then decide rather than going a generic analysis like this..

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Ashokk » 22 May 2020 23:41

This burying one's head in the sand and hoping the bully will go away approach is not going to solve the issue. This scenario plays out at least once every year, honestly unable to understand why we are always caught on the back foot. I am sure the govt & the armed forces have extensively war gamed it. Bit shocked that no one in govt feels that we need to change the approach after this has happened so many times. We seem to have some strange compulsion to be seen as the "good boy" by the world.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby fanne » 23 May 2020 01:26

there is lots of moral grandstanding going on, lets teach them a lesson, or are we afraid, or buhu we are afraid, no no mine is bigger than theirs...

War is serious business (as is maneuvering before events that lead to war). Let's leave that to professionals. The people manning it know best, few things that can fail them -
1) Political leadership (like 1962) - But today we have a pretty decent leadership in MAD. I trust them to take the right decision
2) Army overplaying its strength - I hope not, but there also only Army knows best
3)Army overplaying its weakness - I hope not, but there Army knows best
4) External environment - I am hoping post Covid, we have a more favorable environment. Two outside player who counts are Russia and US and I hope they will stand by us
5) Pakchina collaboration - That is going to happen this time and I hope, political leadership, Army, EAM etc. make cold calculation and take decisions based on that.
6) The most objective decision will be subject to influenced by internal forces (BIF gang will work in cahoots with Pakchina), we will also see some handles and fools getting activated in the BR forum (yes we have influence). I hope we do our part at BR. At the minimum, moral grandstanding and doubting of army and political leadership should be heavily censored, this is War!!
7) PakChina may not calculate (neither can we), but boy this could be the unintentional start of WW3. Let's give this skirmish the importance it deserves, not back down, but don't think like Pakis, that 1 indian =10 chini, or Chini morale would not stand more than a couple of hard blows at the right time and place
8) We cannot at the same time have them roll over us, else we will be negotiating with Pakchina who will keep west Delhi and who will keep North (you give one inch, you may end up giving all.
9) But all this talk of teaching lesson, or God why this happens every year, it's so tough to read it every year (ask the soldiers, they may not be complaining fighting but people are complaining reading)….it only lowers the standards and put the whole govt machinery in reactive mode. They would have already lost the initiative, but I trust them, treat all these comments as coming from Raul baba, weigh it and then either ignore or take appropriate action.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby VickyAvinash » 23 May 2020 01:30

Ashokk wrote:This burying one's head in the sand and hoping the bully will go away approach is not going to solve the issue. This scenario plays out at least once every year, honestly unable to understand why we are always caught on the back foot. I am sure the govt & the armed forces have extensively war gamed it. Bit shocked that no one in govt feels that we need to change the approach after this has happened so many times. We seem to have some strange compulsion to be seen as the "good boy" by the world.


May be the people at the helm are not sure of victory and dont want to pick a fight that they are not sure of winning. China does create a lot of rhetoric and any symbolic loss will have huge political implications for ruling party. Politicians seems to be unsure and risk averse when it comes to deal with hans head-on. There is no other explanation when the same Politico roar against pakis, they rarely utter a word against hans.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby fanne » 23 May 2020 02:18

VickyAvinash wrote:May be the people at the helm are not sure of victory and dont want to pick a fight that they are not sure of winning.
[/quote]

I don't see anything wrong with the above

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karan M » 23 May 2020 08:32

Ashokk wrote:This burying one's head in the sand and hoping the bully will go away approach is not going to solve the issue. This scenario plays out at least once every year, honestly unable to understand why we are always caught on the back foot. I am sure the govt & the armed forces have extensively war gamed it. Bit shocked that no one in govt feels that we need to change the approach after this has happened so many times. We seem to have some strange compulsion to be seen as the "good boy" by the world.


I firmly believe if we fix the OFB imbroglio by privatization of basic ammunition supplies at good quality, and open up the taps re: procurement for the Armed Forces (beyond current levels), that's when you will see a mindset change.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby vishal » 23 May 2020 10:36

It might not be a popular opinion around here but it looks like the Chinese seem to have us exactly where they want us. Basically, they are daring us to escalate or accept the new status quo.
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2020/05/ ... adakh.html

For the first time since the Kargil intrusions of 1999, Indian territory is in the hands of foreign soldiers. Starting in the third week of April, more than 5,000 Chinese soldiers of the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) have intruded into five points in Ladakh – four along the Galwan River, and one near the Pangong Lake."
::
::
That means that, in sending thousands of PLA troops three-to-four kilometres into the Galwan Valley, China has violated its own claim line and occupied territory that Beijing itself has traditionally acknowledged to be Indian.

This is not shaping up like a routing patrol confrontation, or even a temporary occupation of disputed territory of the kind that took place in Depsang in 2013, or in Chumar in 2014. This time the PLA soldiers are digging defences, preparing bunkers, moving in heavy vehicles and have reportedly even moved artillery guns to the rear (albeit in their own territory) to support the intruders, say the sources.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby fanne » 23 May 2020 10:39

of all people ajaishukla...and I don't buy don't kill the messenger part, he has been a snake oil peddler

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya_V » 23 May 2020 10:40

My theory on why the Chinese are acting up, with Covid 19 putting US aircraft carriers and Carrier Battle groups literally out of action, if crew are infected, then the Ship has to leave the Pacific theatre. They have deceided to fix India.

We need to play this smartly, increase our capabilities at the same time a tight rope walk. Pakistan could be a beneficiary of India Chinese clash, much of Indo-Pak border will not be useful for military operations once the South West Moon soon starts. We need to do well in this 1 month with Extra care and I think the 2 front option goes away and unless we are totally Nanga like in 1962 - Chinese supply routes become too cold by Sep-Oct.

As long as we keep are capability ready too punish the Chinese in case they escalate and there might be heavy losses, they will keep thier stuff to pin pricks. AT the same time with Paramilitary forces etc, keep up the pressure at the Pakis. This is a clear 2 front war in a limited time period.

Dont get swayed by Media who have thier own agenda- that same paper with the same management claimed a few years that the Indian Army was conducting a Coup- can there be a better falsehood? There is no official stuff that the Chinese have captured areas upto finger 2 etc, these are all to create confusion, the last Chinese post is East of Sirijap if they have territory upto Finger 2 they must have captured a lot of IA or ITBP personal - posters please give evidence of this when making the claim , the Chinese want us to walk into a trap like 1962 where we sent our troops without Backup up to where they were. I dont think even the Galwan river Valley is suitable for carrying heavy caliber weapons as reported. In 1962 our patrols without backup walked into well entrenched positions. I am sure that will not happen this time.

Yes we can also sneak in and withdraw with Banners- but what does such behavior achieve other than needling the other person and showing him where the weak points are in a real conflict? You can put a tent but I dont think we are in any position to today to start a confrontation and capture territory- as the Pakis will also open another front simultaneously.

Yes, keep capability ready to respond but remember since 1975 no bullet has been fired on the Indo- Tibet(China) border. Till be remove the fangs of the Pakistani snake - it is our interest to keep it this way.

https://indianexpress.com/article/india/chinese-transgression-line-of-actual-control-indian-territory-galwan-river-6423131/

And I cant believe what I am seeing, People who have put out false hoods and have in the past shown known agendas, questioned Surgical strikes and IAF strikes in the past are now become reliable sources on BRF.
Last edited by Aditya_V on 23 May 2020 10:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ldev » 23 May 2020 10:47

vishal wrote:It might not be a popular opinion around here but it looks like the Chinese seem to have us exactly where they want us. Basically, they are daring us to escalate or accept the new status quo.
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2020/05/ ... adakh.html

For the first time since the Kargil intrusions of 1999, Indian territory is in the hands of foreign soldiers. Starting in the third week of April, more than 5,000 Chinese soldiers of the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) have intruded into five points in Ladakh – four along the Galwan River, and one near the Pangong Lake."
::
::
That means that, in sending thousands of PLA troops three-to-four kilometres into the Galwan Valley, China has violated its own claim line and occupied territory that Beijing itself has traditionally acknowledged to be Indian.

This is not shaping up like a routing patrol confrontation, or even a temporary occupation of disputed territory of the kind that took place in Depsang in 2013, or in Chumar in 2014. This time the PLA soldiers are digging defences, preparing bunkers, moving in heavy vehicles and have reportedly even moved artillery guns to the rear (albeit in their own territory) to support the intruders, say the sources.


I was about to post that as well but you beat me to it.

Some inaccuracies, he claims that the Chinese troops have crossed over in late April and that Indian troops have not confronted them as yet. But other reporting indicates that the clash (physical brawl) at Galwan River or Pangong Lake took place on May 5&6. So there was a confrontation in at least 1 of the intruded areas. And while he claims that 75 Indian soldiers were injured he does not report on how many Chinese soldiers were injured in the melee. Though it may not be accurate if his sources are genuine he should at least have an estimate of Chinese injuries. Other news reports directly quoting Indian Army sources indicate that 5 Chinese soldiers and 3 Indian soldiers were injured in the brawl. Huge difference between 3 soldiers injured and 75 soldiers injured. And Shukla has not given/quoted any sources.

So while I do not accept his reporting 100%, nevertheless it is a worrying development.
Last edited by ldev on 23 May 2020 11:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby vishal » 23 May 2020 11:08

fanne wrote:of all people ajaishukla...and I don't buy don't kill the messenger part, he has been a snake oil peddler


Fanne, I've been on this forum a long time & one the things I've realised is which journos report news & which report something else. But, an inaccuracy or falsehood on THIS scale?

Also, my 1st statement is not meant to be snarky, just a worried one. One of the gifts of the Internet is a total absence of tone that accompanies words :)

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ldev » 23 May 2020 11:13

vishal wrote:
fanne wrote:of all people ajaishukla...and I don't buy don't kill the messenger part, he has been a snake oil peddler


Fanne, I've been on this forum a long time & one the things I've realised is which journos report news & which report something else. But, an inaccuracy or falsehood on THIS scale?

Also, my 1st statement is not meant to be snarky, just a worried one. One of the gifts of the Internet is a total absence of tone that accompanies words :)


I just realized there is a huge inconsistency in Shukla's report. In one sentence he claims that the Indian Army has not challenged the intruding PLA. And then later he claims that 75 Indian soldiers were injured. How can there be injuries if there was no challenge/confrontation?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Roop » 23 May 2020 12:13

Let me first state that I don't care about Shukla's opinions and analysis. The guy is a thoroughly dishonest, biased Modi-hating hack.

I would like to remind everyone that in circumstances such as these (an aggressive neighbour stealing your land a little bit at a time using salami-slicing tricks) the decision about what to do is always a choice between two (or more) bad alternatives. Life is never as simple as choosing between one "obviously bad" choice and another and another "obviously good" one -- at least, not when you are cursed with neighbours like Pakistan and China.

It appears to me that most people on here are saying, in effect, "don't take panga with China, they have a much better economy than ours, they have lots of shiny equipment, they are well dug in, they are moving heavy artillery in, they are ready for a fight" etc. Well, maybe they are and maybe they aren't, but to me that doesn't automatically settle the issue in favor of doing nothing. The costs of going to war are well known, but I don't see that the costs of not going to war have been stated here, and I would like to do so.

  1. If it is okay for China to do this now and suffer no immediate consequences, why should they stop here? If all these stories of artillery, digging in etc. are true, they will be even more reckless and intransigent in 3 months or 6 months. If India is (or appears to be) shivering in its dhoti, it would be a spectacular psychlogical defeat (and victory for China without firing a shot or risking any of its own troops' lives). This will be painfully obvious for the whole world to see, and India's smaller neighbours will take note and adjust their foreign policies accordingly. Why would Bhutan, Bangladesh, Myanmar, Sri Lanka, Maldives, Afghanistan put any trust in "loser India"?
  2. What China is attempting here is precisely what their Sun Tzu doctrine recommends -- win a victory in war without firing a shot. Make yourself look all fierce and threatening so that your enemy will not dare threaten you, but simply surrender to your will. They have done this successfully many times in the past -- not so much with India but with many other countries in the South China Sea (building up fake "islands", establishing ADIZ etc.) without any challenge from any other country, not even The Mighty Khan (TMK). But notice that on occasions when TMK in fact challenges them and dare them to shoot, they inevitably back down. Why the hell would they do that if they were so confident of victory with all their shiny equipment and their multi-trillion-dollar economy. They claim that these bogus islands are actually Chinese territory. Why, then, is it not a causus belli for an American warplane to fly over the island while ignoring warnings from Chinese military ships and planes in the area? I'll tell you why: it's because Sun Tzu says you must defeat the enemy without firing a shot.
  3. This meme about "the mighty China ready and waiting to kick India's ass and India can do nothing about it" is something that is noticeably missing from the dialog of Indian military leaders when talking about China. You only hear this from whiny shivering-dhoti columnists/politcos of opposition parties etc. The people who, in the event of war, would actually be called on to fight are not shivering in their dhotis. Have we so quickly forgotten what happened in Doklam? Let me do a quick recap: China went into its usual SUn Tzu routine, Global Times threatening all kinds of terrible defeat for India if it didn't immediately yield to China's demands etc, cowards in the Indian media and various online fora essentially repeating China's predictions, etc. And then the showdown came and the Chinese quietly retreated without firing a shot or making any other fuss. Why does anyone expect them this time to suddenly/magically become like a spectacularly efficient army and Indian army to collapse?
  4. If fear of failure or of paying a price in blood/treasure were the only relevant factors in times of political tension, India would never have done Surgical Strike 1 or 2 (Balakot); we would never have gone to war in Kargil or even taken the initiative in Siachen. Remember Nathu La and Sumdorung Chu? India was much weaker then, relative to China, so why did we fight then?
  5. Finally, if you want other countries to stand by you when you are attacked, you have to first do the bare minimum to defend your self by actually fighting back, not by throwing diplomatic dossiers on the desk of the UN Security Council. People respect a brave guy valiantly fighting back against an armed gangster, and may be moved to actually step in and help, but nobody respects a coward.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Kati » 23 May 2020 12:21

^^^
To the point .... 8) 8) 8)

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya_V » 23 May 2020 12:23

I think you are deliberately misstating what people have been saying, some on this forum have been saying why have not gone to war with China, all we are stating is China has not yet gone to far with India, they have not fired a bullet and even used a sharp weapon i.e then it is posturing, you cannot capture a post or territory without violence.

The rest is ceremonial posturing , do we attack them when they come in Tents, try and shoot their soldiers by firing the first shot or arresting their men.

All people are saying get the Indian capabilities ready. and if there is a First shot be ready to make sure we come out with the upper hand, unlike 1962 where we sent men in the Galwan valley and Thag La ridge without artillery or back up.

Be ready, but we do have unsolved problem with Pakistan - who will use the situation to attack thats all.

If China attacks our soldiers then that is a war and we have to attack them.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya_V » 23 May 2020 13:12

Can anyone tell what is this Chinese post there for google coordinates 32.972821, 79.218743 , there does not seem to be any Indian post near it

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby nam » 23 May 2020 13:54

More details have now come up. Pretty sure this has been feed to our journo, as there is a sense coming in our establishment that Chinis are not budging.

I think the issue at the lake is more serious. Manu Pubby reports that the Chinis have blocked access to Finger 8, from Finger 3 to 4. Building a bunker as well. We used to patrol till Finger 8.

The Chinis were allowed to patrol till Finger 3.

Shukla has probably put more masala on the incident. The Chinis have intruded, that is given. Now no one can prove if the Chinis have used 5000 troops or not.

Or someone feed him extra to blow up the issue.. to allow us to up the ante..

The Chinis trying to hide thing, cannot use it's media to "cry victim" like we can.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby nam » 23 May 2020 14:08

Exactly the narrative we want in the gora press.. :D

You know what 2020 was missing? A Chinese invasion of India. Because that’s essentially what this amounts to if accurate. 5000 Chinese forces dug into territory beyond their own LAC claim line. Question is why?Why now? This isn’t a local colonel freelancing. What does China want?


https://twitter.com/NarangVipin/status/1264030127421349889

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya_V » 23 May 2020 14:37

nam wrote:Exactly the narrative we want in the gora press.. :D

You know what 2020 was missing? A Chinese invasion of India. Because that’s essentially what this amounts to if accurate. 5000 Chinese forces dug into territory beyond their own LAC claim line. Question is why?Why now? This isn’t a local colonel freelancing. What does China want?


https://twitter.com/NarangVipin/status/1264030127421349889


Isnt this the same Mani Shankar Aiyer's SIL who quoted in some American journo Lara something that No F16 short down yada yada this is embarssing for the Indian Govt etc etc.....

Come on we are now giving free propaganda.

5000 Chinese soldiers have invaded India and Army is holding lamps............ I don't think you can suppress this kind of data in India.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby nam » 23 May 2020 14:47

Aditya_V wrote:Isnt this the same Mani Shankar Aiyer's SIL who quoted in some American journo Lara something that No F16 short down yada yada this is embarssing for the Indian Govt etc etc.....

Come on we are now giving free propaganda.

5000 Chinese soldiers have invaded India and Army is holding lamps............ I don't think you can suppress this kind of data in India.


Every story needs a villian, victim and useful jesters. Who bothers about a solitary F16.

What we want in media is "After Corona virus, the CCP is now trying to expand it's territory by invading in to India". "The democracies of the world should unite to defend a sister democracy being invaded by a authoritarian regime" yada yada..

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Manish_Sharma » 23 May 2020 16:14

vishal wrote:It might not be a popular opinion around here but it looks like the Chinese seem to have us exactly where they want us. Basically, they are daring us to escalate or accept the new status quo.
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2020/05/ ... adakh.html

For the first time since the Kargil intrusions of 1999, Indian territory is in the hands of foreign soldiers. Starting in the third week of April, more than 5,000 Chinese soldiers of the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) have intruded into five points in Ladakh – four along the Galwan River, and one near the Pangong Lake."
::
::
That means that, in sending thousands of PLA troops three-to-four kilometres into the Galwan Valley, China has violated its own claim line and occupied territory that Beijing itself has traditionally acknowledged to be Indian.

This is not shaping up like a routing patrol confrontation, or even a temporary occupation of disputed territory of the kind that took place in Depsang in 2013, or in Chumar in 2014. This time the PLA soldiers are digging defences, preparing bunkers, moving in heavy vehicles and have reportedly even moved artillery guns to the rear (albeit in their own territory) to support the intruders, say the sources.

FULL ARTICLE:

ajay shukla

For the first time since the Kargil intrusions of 1999, Indian territory is in the hands of foreign soldiers. Starting in the third week of April, more than 5,000 Chinese soldiers of the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) have intruded into five points in Ladakh – four along the Galwan River, and one near the Pangong Lake.


While patrol intrusions from both sides are routine in areas where the Line of Actual Control (LAC) – the de facto border between India and China – is disputed, the LAC in the Galwan Valley corresponds to China’s official claim line.


That means that, in sending thousands of PLA troops three-to-four kilometres into the Galwan Valley, China has violated its own claim line and occupied territory that Beijing itself has traditionally acknowledged to be Indian.


This is not shaping up like a routing patrol confrontation, or even a temporary occupation of disputed territory of the kind that took place in Depsang in 2013, or in Chumar in 2014. This time the PLA soldiers are digging defences, preparing bunkers, moving in heavy vehicles and have reportedly even moved artillery guns to the rear (albeit in their own territory) to support the intruders, say the sources.


The Chinese have pitched close to a hundred tents at four points on the Galwan River between Patrolling Point 14 (PP 14) and another location called Gogra.


Indian troops in the area were taken by surprise when a large Chinese force crossed the LAC into the Galwan area in late April. Since then, Indian forces have not challenged or confronted the PLA.


Sources say the PLA is expanding its presence. There are fresh reports that the PLA has already initiated another infiltration into another sector in Southern Ladakh.


The Pangong Lake intrusion has been especially bloody for the Indian soldiers there. Sources say 72 Indian soldiers were injured in the confrontation and some of them needed to be flown to hospitals in Leh, Chandi Mandir and Delhi.


The PLA intrusions into Ladakh do not appear to be a localized operation, since they are spread across the area of responsibility of different PLA brigades and division. That suggests centralized coordination from at least the PLA’s theatre command.


Contacted for confirmation, senior officers in the army’s public information directorate declined to comment. Sources say the prime minister’s office (PMO) and National Security Advisor Ajit Doval are overseeing the Indian response.


At the local military level, which falls under the ambit of the Leh Corps Commander, there is little contact with the Chinese. It is learnt that the PLA has stopped responding to Indian requests for flag meetings under the mutual protocol termed the “Border Management Posture” (BMP). “It is a stand-off in which there is presently no communication,” says a senior military officer.


The unusual level of Chinese aggression is illustrated by an incident at the end of April when two Chinese helicopter chased off an Indian helicopter in which the Leh Corps Commander was surveying Indian positions near the Pangong Lake.


The army admits that there was an incident involving helicopters from both sides, but states it was a “coincidence” that the Chinese helicopters were there. The Indian Air Force (IAF) chief, Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria admitted in an interview this week that there was Chinese helicopter activity in the area, but claimed that the IAF was taking “necessary action”.


There is little clarity within government about why the Chinese have triggered this intrusion, along with another simultaneously in Sikkim. Some officials speculate that Beijing is punishing New Delhi for publishing a revised map of the former state of Jammu & Kashmir in November, which showed Aksai Chin – which both countries claim, but China occupies – as a part of India. 


Another viewpoint holds that the traditionally peaceful Galwan River has now become a hotspot because it is where the LAC is closest to the new road India has built along the Shyok River to Daulet Beg Oldi (DBO) -- the most remote and vulnerable area along the LAC in Ladakh.


Along the 800 kilometre LAC in Ladakh, there have traditionally been just five trouble spots, where the two sides dispute the LAC. These are Chumar, Demchok, Pangong and two places near DBO. The PLA’s ingress into the Galwan River valley opens up a new and worrying chapter.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Manish_Sharma » 23 May 2020 16:24

^ I have posted shooklaaa article in full here so his lies can be taken down one by one

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ArjunPandit » 23 May 2020 16:42

Manish_Sharma wrote:The unusual level of Chinese aggression is illustrated by an incident at the end of April when two Chinese helicopter chased off an Indian helicopter in which the Leh Corps Commander was surveying Indian positions near the Pangong Lake.

and indian sukhois chased these helicopters

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby dinesh_kimar » 23 May 2020 17:57

Previously even during the Doklam crisis, media had been defeatist before even a shot had been fired (Thanks for concept, from Rohit Vats on twitter).

India Today predicted war, TOI also bleak outlook, and Raul Vinci even went for Chinese dinner. (Nowhere related to Leonardo Da Vinci, I presume).

More of the same can be expected from Chinese paid media.
Last edited by dinesh_kimar on 23 May 2020 18:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby chola » 23 May 2020 17:59

^^^ Is this true? If there are 5000 PLA kilometers into India then the IA would be fighting now or massing for a counterattack. No way this wouldn't be topping headlines everywhere.


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