India Border Watch: Security and Operations

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Manish_Sharma
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Manish_Sharma » 31 May 2020 23:14

I couldn't find how many Su-30MKM fighters China has on Google, IIRC they have around 500 but unlike our MKIs theirs don't have THRUST VECTORING. 3 years back they bought 24 Su-35 with 3d thrust VECTORING.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Deans » 31 May 2020 23:14

Mort Walker wrote:
khan wrote:There is a lot of dhoti shivering about 2 front War. IMO, the following two things haven’t changed:

1. India is perfectly capable of fighting a 2 front defensive war while holding its own and seriously mauling China & eliminating Pakistan’s war fighting capability.

2. These periodic tensions are good because they focus the mind on the national security aspect of things.


It's actually a 3 front war. COVID-19 cases are ramping up with 8,000 new cases over 200+ dead every day and has not plateaued yet. A public health crisis is on hand and resources must be dedicated for it. Don't think for a moment the Chinese don't know this and are planning for it.


The scenario the Chinese were hoping for was:
- Kashmir in flames in the summer after 370 abrogation (in reality casualties at their lowest).
- LOC in flames (in reality a lot quieter than China expected and no terror attack for months).
- Health system collapses due to Covid.
- Economy collapses because a bad situation is exacerbated by Covid.

Apart from these being largely incorrect (except for the economy) the Covid crisis has reinforced the fact that China is the bad guy and India a responsible state. I know that there is now an unprecedented level of Intel and other cooperation between the Quad countries.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Larry Walker » 31 May 2020 23:19

Unfortunately to shake our dharmic people out of slumber, we need a crisis which is severe but which can be managed to some extent. If Chinks and Porkies attack during this CoVid distress, no brainer it will cause more distress and anguish and some losses, but I am optimistic that it will finally awaken our people with spirit of nationalism and righteousness, and they will shrug off the petty differences and pool their infinite energy and focus in propelling the country and nation forward. Jai Shri Ram.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Deans » 31 May 2020 23:24

Manish_Sharma wrote:I couldn't find how many Su-30MKM fighters China has on Google, IIRC they have around 500 but unlike our MKIs theirs don't have THRUST VECTORING. 3 years back they bought 24 Su-35 with 3d thrust VECTORING.


They have 2 regiments of SU-30 and 3 regiments of J-16 (the SU-30 equivalent)
Each fighter regiment has 3 squadrons. Each squadron has 12-16 aircraft. That gives a total of approx 200 (SU30 + J16).
Their main modern combat fighter is the SU-27 & J-11.

There is no SU-30 or J-16 squadron assigned to the Western Theatre.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby yensoy » 31 May 2020 23:31

arshyam wrote:A 2017 promotional video by the contractor that built it, and it has got great visuals of the Pangong Tso's north bank road. The construction package is for 74km between Phobrang - Chartse - Point 4433, which, per the distance shown by G maps, is the entire stretch up to the ITBP sign at finger 4. (I couldn't locate where Chartse or Pt 4433 are on the map).
If this is the quality of roads we are building now, transportation in Ladakh has become much easier.

Thanks for sharing sir. This video is beautiful and a MUST WATCH for anyone who wants to understand the border situation. What a fantastic road!! I am sure it cost a pretty packet but that is what one needs to pay to make good roads, not just in Ladakh. I agree this must be running all the way to the ITBP post.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Ashokk » 31 May 2020 23:32

arshyam wrote:I couldn't locate where Chartse or Pt 4433 are on the map

Image

Pt4433 is probably here as the road ends here and it is on a hill top overlooking the border.
Last edited by Ashokk on 01 Jun 2020 01:36, edited 1 time in total.

fanne
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby fanne » 31 May 2020 23:36

There is no dhoti shivering - per IA's many chiefs - they have repeatedly said they have planned and ready for 2.5 war (not 1.5). They have the men and material, strategy and training for that. They have 13-14 divisions just against China, that's lots of manpower, particularly if are planning to defend (and further complicated by 3 division worth of offense-defend divisions). Unless all the chiefs were bluffing, IA is very ready. The .5 war could be though not just in JK but many parts of India - I hope the central and police is ready. IN is more than adequately ready. IAF could have been better (but not bad). If the war does not happen this year, ideal time for TSP/China could be summer (except monsoon) and September/October, IAF should try to build some bulk fast, low cost, low tech if that what's the low cost gets - More LCA, second hand mig29/m2k, some AEW, PGMs, Akash, AA missile, perhaps Meteor for M2K. Then we again start next summer April/MAY to October cycle for 2 front war.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby chetak » 01 Jun 2020 00:03

the chinese paltu presstitutes are into chinese funded perks and privileges and so silence is literally gold for them


Aarti Tikoo Singh@AartiTikoo·11h

Wondering why no outrage over #China’s incursions in #Ladakh?

Indian companies with Chinese Investors:
1. Big Basket
2. Flipkart
3. Make My Trip
4. Ola
5. Oyo
6. Paytm
7. Policy Bazaar
8. Quikr
9. Snapdeal
10. Swiggy
11.Zomato
12. Dailyhunt
13. Gaana
14. Practo
15. Khatabook

chetak
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby chetak » 01 Jun 2020 00:17

why return it at all. :mrgreen:


LCA TEJAS (INDIA) ‏‏ایل سی اے تیجس@Leopard212·6h

Observation: This is a Prize Catch-

The Chinese Dongfeng Mengshi, a rip-off from American Humvee 4x4 Troop Carrier.

It will be of interest to NOT Return This, NOT unless, DRDO Specialists, EME and Signal Units have stripped the vehicle bare, studied its contents & paraphernalia


Image
Last edited by chetak on 01 Jun 2020 00:20, edited 1 time in total.

RajaRudra
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby RajaRudra » 01 Jun 2020 00:19

chetak wrote:
LCA TEJAS (INDIA) ‏‏ایل سی اے تیجس@Leopard212·6h

Observation: This is a Prize Catch-

The Chinese Dongfeng Mengshi, a rip-off from American Humvee 4x4 Troop Carrier.

It will be of interest to NOT Return This, NOT unless, DRDO Specialists, EME and Signal Units have stripped the vehicle bare, studied its contents & paraphernalia


Image


Sirji..we had not captured it. In the video you can see it is going reverse.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 01 Jun 2020 00:22

Chetak, manjugu et al, Should we be more direct and rename the thread to China- Pak border watch thread?
Being ex fauji do weigh in.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 01 Jun 2020 00:28

Fanne, The 0.5 war includes political front. And in last one year a transformation of the GOI vast information power has been rechannelized. We see its results in internal security but dont realize it. Yes 2.5 front war preparation is ready. It will result in transformation of Indian subcontinent and the world geopolitics. We hope to see China liberated from the grip of the Communist dictatorship too.We want a new millennium and not just a few decades. The end of totalitarianism in Asia and Western dominance will be the end result.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karna » 01 Jun 2020 00:35

chetak wrote:the chinese paltu presstitutes are into chinese funded perks and privileges and so silence is literally gold for them


Aarti Tikoo Singh@AartiTikoo·11h

Wondering why no outrage over #China’s incursions in #Ladakh?

Indian companies with Chinese Investors:
1. Big Basket
2. Flipkart
3. Make My Trip
4. Ola
5. Oyo
6. Paytm
7. Policy Bazaar
8. Quikr
9. Snapdeal
10. Swiggy
11.Zomato
12. Dailyhunt
13. Gaana
14. Practo
15. Khatabook


China central bank has 1% stake in HDFC. Looking it from this perspective will be myopic.

Reason there is a limited outrage cause there is no leader. Has there been any statement from any senior leader raising their voices against cheen. As against na pork, where every leader wants to sound heroic, here every one is trying to tone down the passion.

Reading twitter timeline of some Indian Generals the feeling is cheen is a competitor while na pork is an enemy.

Communism and propaganda goes hand in hand and we all know such media houses..

chetak
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby chetak » 01 Jun 2020 00:39

ramana wrote:Chetak, manjugu et al, Should we be more direct and rename the thread to China- Pak border watch thread?
Being ex fauji do weigh in.


Yes sirji.

the problems on the nepal, beedi, and the myanmarese borders are substantially different from the china paki border issues.

while the china paki border issues have a lot of commonality including the active collusion, as well as, the coordination of interests resulting in eyeball to eyeball contact.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby williams » 01 Jun 2020 00:47

yensoy wrote:
arshyam wrote:A 2017 promotional video by the contractor that built it, and it has got great visuals of the Pangong Tso's north bank road. The construction package is for 74km between Phobrang - Chartse - Point 4433, which, per the distance shown by G maps, is the entire stretch up to the ITBP sign at finger 4. (I couldn't locate where Chartse or Pt 4433 are on the map).
If this is the quality of roads we are building now, transportation in Ladakh has become much easier.

Thanks for sharing sir. This video is beautiful and a MUST WATCH for anyone who wants to understand the border situation. What a fantastic road!! I am sure it cost a pretty packet but that is what one needs to pay to make good roads, not just in Ladakh. I agree this must be running all the way to the ITBP post.

I got a chance to glimpse through maybe a month old high res sat maps of SSN. I would say seeing metallic roads in this area in itself is heartwarming. There is also the construction of many defensive elements. Perhaps the latest skirmish shows the Chinese nervousness of these developments. One thing is for sure, between this new infrastructure and the new airlift capability, the Chinese cannot get away with a simple 1962 style infantry war. So I am not sure why MEA is not that assertive publicly. Perhaps they are avoiding to fuel any unnecessary internal lefty reaction.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby krishna_krishna » 01 Jun 2020 00:54

Some Sunday Thoughts to pen :

The Laddakh, POK and Tibet Region in addition to geo-strategic connectivity have one important thing for 21st century gold and future which is "water", this region holds sources to all the rivers that feed India, Bangladesh, Nepal , china , Myanmar, porkistan, china etc.

This is what the importance turkey enjoy's not just location but sources to river.Since Vedic times this has been the holy grail to control waters, we need to look this conflict not just an area control but for battle of water and strategic independence. Bramhaputra, Ganges, five rivers of Punjab (Ravi, Beas, Chenab, Jhelum, Sutlej) and Indus River cradle of our civilization. All have origins currently in either PoK or Tibet (under Chinese control) except for one or two.

Once the control of sources is under Chinese/porkies strangulation starts. This is why importance of Gilgit baltistand (Pok) is to India.

We can pen down pages on how this effects connectivity to Afghanistan etc. but the crux is control of waters. We can always see that mentality is this or that but that is more of diversion than focus on the geo-strategic objective of both the countries (nexus) to control the access and water.

Same is reason why US is interested in Bangladesh till today. More we understand and based strategy around this everything else will fall into place.

First is terrain analysis, then geo-strategic objectives or short war (ours vs porkis vs chinnis vs porkis chini combined), what they want to achieve in short war window that is still possible under Nu clear umbrella which Balakot showed us (we crossed in porkistan and they almost bombed our military HQ) but nu clear bums where no where visible.

I believe china also realizes that there is a window available and it is closing fast. By next year all the major roads will be done and then it will be too heavy price to pay to salami slice an area. What better time to do this, Massa is going on elections, corona has weakened the world, but china is not that much affected. This is where they see opportunity and they have calculated (miscalculated in my opinion). This will be their Vietnam,lets see they choose to loose face to commit harakiri.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Sravan » 01 Jun 2020 01:14

What’s the harm of limited war?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Suresh S » 01 Jun 2020 01:16

Tx. Incredible video. Must watch for everyone here.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Sravan » 01 Jun 2020 01:27



Face off between troops

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Sravan » 01 Jun 2020 01:28

Ashokk wrote:
AdityaM wrote:This Twitter image
Looks like unconscious & hurt Indian soldiers have been tied up by Chinese.

https://twitter.com/iq_examiner/status/ ... 01985?s=21

Any one has context ? There is a boat on the top left corner

Image


Ash ok the photo is fabricated. Look at the leg of the Chinese soldier, it just melts into the ground.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby chetak » 01 Jun 2020 01:54

Sravan wrote:What’s the harm of limited war?


really, you have to ask this question

1. people are going to die. families may well be destroyed if it is a single breadwinner family

2. it won't be you doing the fighting or the dying.

so stop with the war talk as though it is going to be a visit to the corner grocery store.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Larry Walker » 01 Jun 2020 01:56

I see assault rifles on back of Indian soldiers, but I thought both sides avoided carrying weapons ??

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Manish_Sharma » 01 Jun 2020 02:05

Thanks Deans saar for info regarding chinese fighter jets _/\_
________________________

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Sravan » 01 Jun 2020 02:35

chetak wrote:
Sravan wrote:What’s the harm of limited war?


really, you have to ask this question

1. people are going to die. families may well be destroyed if it is a single breadwinner family

2. it won't be you doing the fighting or the dying.

so stop with the war talk as though it is going to be a visit to the corner grocery store.


Yes, but aren’t people dying today. Aren’t we fighting today?

It’s a question of respect. Strength respects strength. If you don’t show strength, you get trampled and the cycle repeats. We need war to create and expand our sphere of influence. I strongly suggest we initiate war on our terms instead of having war forced on us by the enemy on their terms according to their strategies.

The first war we need to fight is to recognize the need for war. It’s the same conversation Krishna had with Arjun. Your arguments are flawed.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby parshuram » 01 Jun 2020 02:49

Ashokk wrote:
AdityaM wrote:This Twitter image
Looks like unconscious & hurt Indian soldiers have been tied up by Chinese.

https://twitter.com/iq_examiner/status/ ... 01985?s=21

Any one has context ? There is a boat on the top left corner

Image


Upper left most corner ,If Chinese have tried to sneak in a what looks like a boat . Very poor effort

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Davidrock » 01 Jun 2020 06:24

In my opinion, we no need to fear. If they have ingressed in Pangong Tso, apart from pushing them, we need to ingress in multiple other locations.

They have been cutting man power, we have not and can afford more men.

We need to work on our strengths. No matter what technology they have, they cant match our manpower if we decide to do so.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Vips » 01 Jun 2020 07:04

Do not bet on the Manpower angle too much as those Chinese soldiers who have been retired early will be treated as reserves and can and will be drafted/deployed on the border by the Chinese. Also unlike us where we have to take Pakistan into our calculations china does not face any challenge from or has to worry about any other country it shares its borders with and that includes Russia which is facing danger from the Chinese in Siberia!!!

We have to get ULH in big numbers and some T 72's or light tanks pronto. Get extra Spikes and Iglas in good numbers and we will see the lizard behave.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Sravan » 01 Jun 2020 07:14

Vips wrote:Do not bet on the Manpower angle too much as those Chinese soldiers who have been retired early will be treated as reserves and can and will be drafted/deployed on the border by the Chinese. Also unlike us where we have to take Pakistan into our calculations china does not face any challenge from or has to worry about any other country it shares its borders with and that includes Russia which is facing danger from the Chinese in Siberia!!!

We have to get ULH in big numbers and some T 72's or light tanks pronto. Get extra Spikes and Iglas in good numbers and we will see the lizard behave.


To do all that we need the intention to invade and salami slice on their side. If we maintain a defensive posture and match their build up only, you will always have an escalation latency. We SHOULD NOT mobilize without taking a chunk of land. Otherwise they can keep repeating to deplete our resources.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Davidrock » 01 Jun 2020 07:29

Vips wrote:Do not bet on the Manpower angle too much as those Chinese soldiers who have been retired early will be treated as reserves and can and will be drafted/deployed on the border by the Chinese. Also unlike us where we have to take Pakistan into our calculations china does not face any challenge from or has to worry about any other country it shares its borders with and that includes Russia which is facing danger from the Chinese in Siberia!!!

We have to get ULH in big numbers and some T 72's or light tanks pronto. Get extra Spikes and Iglas in good numbers and we will see the lizard behave.


In the long term yes, but we need to respond immediately and in that sense having superior man power will help in dealing with such scuffles in a dominant way.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Davidrock » 01 Jun 2020 07:31

And when skirmish breaks out, we need to engage IAF immediately. We can wait for them to fire the first shot, but surely cannot afford them to start the first air strike.

We are nuclear power, lets do some nuclear noise, they know full scale war is no affordable to them. Their main enemy is US, who will benefit most in an India china war and chinese know it.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby manjgu » 01 Jun 2020 07:46

Vips wrote:Do not bet on the Manpower angle too much as those Chinese soldiers who have been retired early will be treated as reserves and can and will be drafted/deployed on the border by the Chinese. Also unlike us where we have to take Pakistan into our calculations china does not face any challenge from or has to worry about any other country it shares its borders with and that includes Russia which is facing danger from the Chinese in Siberia!!!

We have to get ULH in big numbers and some T 72's or light tanks pronto. Get extra Spikes and Iglas in good numbers and we will see the lizard behave.


actually, if IA calls up Ladhak Scouts retired jawans of last 3 years ( no acclimitisation required)...we can outnumber the chinkis in any sector, apart from the logistics angle. actually if the 12000 construction workers news is correct, its a v good step. Apart from building civil works during the day, they should be paid to sing at night with bonfires etc... near the chinki camps.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby khan » 01 Jun 2020 07:47

Davidrock wrote:And when skirmish breaks out, we need to engage IAF immediately. We can wait for them to fire the first shot, but surely cannot afford them to start the first air strike.

We are nuclear power, lets do some nuclear noise, they know full scale war is no affordable to them. Their main enemy is US, who will benefit most in an India china war and chinese know it.

I am sure people much smarter and more knowledgeable than us have thought of an escalation ladder.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Davidrock » 01 Jun 2020 07:48

khan wrote:
Davidrock wrote:And when skirmish breaks out, we need to engage IAF immediately. We can wait for them to fire the first shot, but surely cannot afford them to start the first air strike.

We are nuclear power, lets do some nuclear noise, they know full scale war is no affordable to them. Their main enemy is US, who will benefit most in an India china war and chinese know it.

I am sure people much smarter and more knowledgeable than us have thought of an escalation ladder.


I bet ! just giving my opinion mate.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby manjgu » 01 Jun 2020 07:55

chetak wrote:
Sravan wrote:What’s the harm of limited war?


really, you have to ask this question

1. people are going to die. families may well be destroyed if it is a single breadwinner family

2. it won't be you doing the fighting or the dying.

so stop with the war talk as though it is going to be a visit to the corner grocery store.


war is a measure of last lastttttt resort for sane people..when all other options have been exhaussssssssteddddddd. there is much space as of today for other measures without letting our guard down.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby manjgu » 01 Jun 2020 07:58

btw there was a v good road to phobrang and beyond as of 2011/12 .... the road to chang la was being 4 laned ahead of Chemde till it climbs into the mountains as of 2017 ... the road shown in the vid was not that long as of 2013/14 but in v good shape ... used it to go to maan merak...

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby prasan » 01 Jun 2020 08:15

156 BMP 2 ordered


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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby arshyam » 01 Jun 2020 08:23

chetak wrote:
ramana wrote:Chetak, manjugu et al, Should we be more direct and rename the thread to China- Pak border watch thread?
Being ex fauji do weigh in.


Yes sirji.

the problems on the nepal, beedi, and the myanmarese borders are substantially different from the china paki border issues.

while the china paki border issues have a lot of commonality including the active collusion, as well as, the coordination of interests resulting in eyeball to eyeball contact.

Not an ex-fauji, but one small suggestion, if I may. Can we call it Tibet-Paki frontier thread instead? Using Tibet instead of China is not wrong, technically, and using the word frontier would not give the LoC or LAC sanctity of a "border".

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby arshyam » 01 Jun 2020 08:54

Ashokk wrote:
arshyam wrote:I couldn't locate where Chartse or Pt 4433 are on the map

<img>https://i.paste.pics/96B9K.png?trs=abf094de8dd16f36b857d4db8f8be5ca4a5aae97baabdba9de8fde329c4d389a</img>

Pt4433 is probably here as the road ends here and it is on a hill top overlooking the border.

Thanks saar - so Chartse is the junction of the two roads to Pangong from Phobrang (33°53'54"N 78°34'50"E). I still think the point 4488 is at/close to the ITBP sign along Pangong Tso, since the video clearly says the name of the lake, and the road surface type looks very similar to what they show in the video - laybye for slow-moving vehicles, retaining wall against the hills, and periodic concrete aprons that act as a causeway. The total distance to the ITBP sign also matches what they claim as part of the project (75km).

The link you gave is near Gogra, which is quite far away from Pangong Tso, and is 80km away from Phobrang on a route that does not touch Pangong Tso at all, so the signboard in the video that mentions Chartse would not make much sense. But there are signs of a road on this route as well!

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby arshyam » 01 Jun 2020 08:57

krishna_krishna wrote:Some Sunday Thoughts to pen :

The Laddakh, POK and Tibet Region in addition to geo-strategic connectivity have one important thing for 21st century gold and future which is "water", this region holds sources to all the rivers that feed India, Bangladesh, Nepal , china , Myanmar, porkistan, china etc.

This is what the importance turkey enjoy's not just location but sources to river.Since Vedic times this has been the holy grail to control waters, we need to look this conflict not just an area control but for battle of water and strategic independence. Bramhaputra, Ganges, five rivers of Punjab (Ravi, Beas, Chenab, Jhelum, Sutlej) and Indus River cradle of our civilization. All have origins currently in either PoK or Tibet (under Chinese control) except for one or two.

According to Maroof Raza and Iqbal Malhotra's book on Kashmir, the Shaksgam valley is the most glaciated region in the world, that eventually feeds the Yarkhand river which goes via Xinjiang. Just another data point.

Their thesis was that the entire Kashmir issue is over control of water, since China now holds all the cards and wants to ensure we are kept bogged down by the pakis and don't challenge their hold on most of Asia's water resources.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby arshyam » 01 Jun 2020 09:02

manjgu wrote:the road to chang la was being 4 laned ahead of Chemde till it climbs into the mountains as of 2017 ...

Interesting - this is the route to Durbuk and Shyok, which is on the the new route to SSN along the LAC.


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