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India Border Watch: Security and Operations

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Kakarat
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Kakarat » 05 Jul 2017 16:28

Since a couple of days many have been posting about trade imbalance and chinese products in Indian market
I just want to ask what phone do you use? Lenovo, xiaomi mi, huawei hornor, ZTC, Motorola, ect are all chinese productes. Even the modems that come with many broadband connections and the usb dongles are chinese

I had decided some time ago that I will try my best to avoid chinese companies, though avoiding made in china is not completely possible as yet.

Aditya_V
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya_V » 05 Jul 2017 16:37

Kakarat wrote:Since a couple of days many have been posting about trade imbalance and chinese products in Indian market
I just want to ask what phone do you use? Lenovo, xiaomi mi, huawei hornor, ZTC, Motorola, ect are all chinese productes. Even the modems that come with many broadband connections and the usb dongles are chinese

I had decided some time ago that I will try my best to avoid chinese companies, though avoiding made in china is not completely possible as yet.


This cannot be without a long term plan where we start making our own chips and components for computers phones etc. India we love shortcuts.

Singha
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Singha » 05 Jul 2017 16:39

though samsung, htc, sony and apple also make in china, the net value add to chinese economy is much less for these as its just contract manufacturing job and maybe 90% of the retail price goes to the korean/japani/american/taiwani OEM. selectively some models like iphoneSE are also made in india, as are some galaxy(?)

lenovo(moto),huawei,xiaomi,oppo, oneplus,vivo are 101% cheen. whatever you pay goes to pocket of the lizard. selectively some of them have started to make in India.

about karbonn,lava,micromaxx, I think they pocket some marketing margin but the IP and design also belong to the chinese OEM who makes it in batches for these. so they fall in same bucket as xiaomi. they might do some final assembly in india.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Marten » 05 Jul 2017 16:47

Kakarat wrote:Since a couple of days many have been posting about trade imbalance and chinese products in Indian market
I just want to ask what phone do you use? Lenovo, xiaomi mi, huawei hornor, ZTC, Motorola, ect are all chinese productes. Even the modems that come with many broadband connections and the usb dongles are chinese

I had decided some time ago that I will try my best to avoid chinese companies, though avoiding made in china is not completely possible as yet.

I'm on the same path. The goal is to try and minimize, not look to go crazy in eliminating. Made in Korea or Japan is any day a better option, and I have been pushing the same amongst friends and family for a while. To protect ourselves, we must first recognize the manners in which we hurt ourselves!

Kakarat
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Kakarat » 05 Jul 2017 16:53

Aditya_V wrote:
Kakarat wrote:Since a couple of days many have been posting about trade imbalance and chinese products in Indian market
I just want to ask what phone do you use? Lenovo, xiaomi mi, huawei hornor, ZTC, Motorola, ect are all chinese productes. Even the modems that come with many broadband connections and the usb dongles are chinese

I had decided some time ago that I will try my best to avoid chinese companies, though avoiding made in china is not completely possible as yet.


This cannot be without a long term plan where we start making our own chips and components for computers phones etc. India we love shortcuts.


Please note I am not saying boycott Made in china, I have clearly said 'avoiding made in china is not completely possible as yet'. But we can still avoid Chinese companies

Aditya_V
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya_V » 05 Jul 2017 17:10

I am agreeing with emotional boycott without an Indian manufacturing base for high end electronics is useless but as country we need to reduce our addiction to Chinese goods in the long term.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya G » 05 Jul 2017 17:26

One aspect of the ongoing standoff with China;

Technically speaking it is an out of area operation for the Indian Army as it is on foreign (Bhutan) soil.

The india china agreement or disagreement on LAC is not directly relevant.

I realised that only after looking at rohit vats maps.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby TKiran » 05 Jul 2017 17:37

^^^this trade deficit has doubled in the last 2years, how about that?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ArjunPandit » 05 Jul 2017 18:11

Should we check with empelol Jin ping if millions of dead Chinese is a small no for him like Mao?
OK that's taking it to far but I am sure ia iaf have gamed the scenarios by now and are taking a calculated risk.... This is a God sent opportunity and we should not leave them without extracting price... At the least the if these people when they come again should be returned wth adequate humiliation like taking their weapons as highlight our peaceful credentials

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby DrRatnadip » 05 Jul 2017 18:15

/china/no-dispute-with-bhutan-in-doklam-area-china/articleshow/59457355.cms

No dispute with Bhutan in Doklam area: China

BEIJING: China on Wednesday claimed that it has a "basic consensus" with Bhutan on the boundary and there is no dispute between two countries in the Doklam area, the center of the current Sino-India military dispute.
The stand-off between troops of India and China at Doklam area started after Bhutan, which has close diplomatic and military ties with India, protested to Beijing about the People's Liberation Army troops building a road in the strategic location close to the 'Chicken's Neck' tri-junction.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby jamwal » 05 Jul 2017 21:12

TKiran wrote:^^^this trade deficit has doubled in the last 2years, how about that?

in Jan 2017
The total India-China bilateral trade in 2016 amounted to $70.8 billion, a decline of 2.1% as per the trade figures released by General Administration of Customs (GAC). China exports totaled to $58.33 billion, registering an increase of 0.2% compared to $58.25 billion in 2015, as GAC data accessed by PTI.



What am I missing here ?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Prasad » 05 Jul 2017 21:55

In case anyone has excess bile to throw up after reading this piece - http://m.economictimes.com/news/defence ... 448272.cms

TKiran
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby TKiran » 05 Jul 2017 22:31

jamwal wrote:
TKiran wrote:^^^this trade deficit has doubled in the last 2years, how about that?

in Jan 2017
The total India-China bilateral trade in 2016 amounted to $70.8 billion, a decline of 2.1% as per the trade figures released by General Administration of Customs (GAC). China exports totaled to $58.33 billion, registering an increase of 0.2% compared to $58.25 billion in 2015, as GAC data accessed by PTI.



What am I missing here ?


Jamwal sir, this discussion has popped up many times. There's heavy sensorship in chacha search for data.

When MMS left Office the trade deficit was $20 B
By Jan 17 it's 45.86 according to your own data.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby rsingh » 05 Jul 2017 23:13

Prasad wrote:In case anyone has excess bile to throw up after reading this piece - http://m.economictimes.com/news/defence ... 448272.cms

How this guy became Senior fellow at the Institute of Peace & Conflict Studies?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby pattnayak » 05 Jul 2017 23:14

YashG wrote:
pattnayak wrote:Reading all these editorials from Global Times and other Chinese mouth-pieces, I am astonished at the level of Chinese scholars' understanding of India. "If we push on sensitive border, India will join CPEC/OBOR", "India did this to show US it can contain India', "India is not on the same level as China, so it will not stand up to us, we will teach them a lesson". Is this really what they think? Do they really think India is trying to curry favors with India and not securing its on territorial integrity?

I am really confused. I hope there are some Chinese policy experts who know why India is doing what its doing.


Well thats exactly what I think they do - create a confusing smokescreen about their real intentions. And thats what I suggested in my last post. If we confuse them too - creative ideas in strategic space - they will pull out their hairs too. :D that would be funny.


Seriously. I don't know why, but I thought the Chinese would be a better adversary than Pakistan. Maybe I have not read enough. I am still 27 year old who discovered BRF in college and have been reading it ever since. Trying to educated my self before I open my mouth. One of the reasons I don't comment much.

But after seeing the recent comments by so called scholars from China. I am shocked. They sound like the frat boys I met while doing engineering in US. The kind of people you don't want to talk to, forget about fighting.

In fact for some reason I think Chinese are like those frat douchebags. Flexing muscles. Getting in your face and abusing you. Pacing around like an angry monkey. Unable to have a discussion with facts. The dumb sorority girls (other countries enamored by Chinese muscle flexing) and frat bros like Pakistan (standing behind alpha dog, flexing muscle. But runs like a poodle if the big dog not around) and other countries supporting China seem so juvenile.

We should totally start a trolling campaign against china. Not only on twitter, reddit and FB but also on Weibo. For starters we can go with this

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/07/03/africa/kenya-bridge-collapse/index.html

"China upped the ante in Bhutan, because it wants to show the world that it can make good infrastructure projects. Especially after the Kenya bridge collapse, they have to show that they can build something. Therefore they are building this road for that purpose"

Completely ridiculous I know. But I so want to send this as a reply to those condescending Chinese "policy experts".

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby DrRatnadip » 05 Jul 2017 23:35

Indian responce to current issue is much more caliberated and clear..This is in contrast to chinese who are trying to intimidate India every now and then..Only official statement by India on this issue is very straightforward:

Recent Developments in Doklam Area
June 30, 2017
The Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs made a statement on 26 June 2017 alleging that Indian border troops crossed the boundary line in the Sikkim sector of the China-India boundary and entered Chinese territory. This has been reiterated since then in other Chinese official briefings.
The facts of the matter are as follows:
i.On 16 June, a PLA construction party entered the Doklam area and attempted to construct a road. It is our understanding that a Royal Bhutan Army patrol attempted to dissuade them from this unilateral activity. The Ambassador of the Royal Government of Bhutan (RGOB) has publicly stated that it lodged a protest with the Chinese Government through their Embassy in New Delhi on 20 June.

ii.Yesterday, the Foreign Ministry of Bhutan has also issued a statement underlining that the construction of the road inside Bhutanese territory is a direct violation of the 1988 and 1998 agreements between Bhutan and China and affects the process of demarcating the boundary between these two countries. They have urged a return to the status quo as before 16 June 2017.

iii.In keeping with their tradition of maintaining close consultation on matters of mutual interest, RGOB and the Government of India have been in continuous contact through the unfolding of these developments.

iv.In coordination with the RGOB, Indian personnel, who were present at general area Doka La, approached the Chinese construction party and urged them to desist from changing the status quo. These efforts continue.

v.The matter has been under discussion between India and China at the diplomatic level in the Foreign Ministries since then, both in New Delhi and Beijing. It was also the subject of a Border Personnel Meeting at Nathu La on 20 June.

India is deeply concerned at the recent Chinese actions and has conveyed to the Chinese Government that such construction would represent a significant change of status quo with serious security implications for India.
In this context, the Indian side has underlined that the two Governments had in 2012 reached agreement that the tri-junction boundary points between India, China and third countries will be finalized in consultation with the concerned countries. Any attempt, therefore, to unilaterally determine tri-junction points is in violation of this understanding.
Where the boundary in the Sikkim sector is concerned, India and China had reached an understanding also in 2012 reconfirming their mutual agreement on the "basis of the alignment”. Further discussions regarding finalization of the boundary have been taking place under the Special Representatives framework.
It is essential that all parties concerned display utmost restraint and abide by their respective bilateral understandings not to change the status quo unilaterally. It is also important that the consensus reached between India and China through the Special Representatives process is scrupulously respected by both sides.
India has consistently taken a positive approach to the settlement of its own boundary with China, along with the associated issue of the tri-junctions.
India cherishes peace and tranquillity in the India-China border areas. It has not come easily. Both sides have worked hard to establish institutional framework to discuss all issues to ensure peace and tranquillity in the India-China border areas. India is committed to working with China to find peaceful resolution of all issues in the border areas through dialogue.

Most important factor in this issue will be Bhutan's resolve against Chinese salami slicing..

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ArjunPandit » 06 Jul 2017 02:51

India asks China to retreat from Doklam

"The Chinese troops should stay where they were earlier...They have entered Bhutan's territory...they should not intrude into Bhutanese territory. This is our security concern and this is our stand,"

Sau sunar ki ek luhar ki

"Understand what Bhutan is saying. This tension can be resolved only at a diplomatic level; across the table, we can solve all the problems."

begani shaadi main xi deewana

China is fuming at the way Indian troops stationed in the Doka La general area, near the Sikkim-Bhutan-Tibet tri-junction, stepped in to prevent the Chinese soldiers and construction workers from building the road.

Sach ka saamna

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Kashi » 06 Jul 2017 06:55

TKiran wrote:When MMS left Office the trade deficit was $20 B
By Jan 17 it's 45.86 according to your own data.


Eh...???

2011

India-China bilateral trade hit a record USD 73.9 billion last year, but the ballooning trade deficit in Beijing favour rose to over USD 27 billion


2012

India’s bilateral trade with China has fallen by 12 per cent to $ 66 billion in 2012, driven by a record slump in exports, which has expanded the trade deficit to $29 billion


2013

India-China trade: record $ 31 bn deficit in 2013
India’s trade deficit with China reached a record $ 31.4 billion in 2013, with two-way trade declining last year by 1.5 per cent on account of a sharp decline in Indian exports, new trade figures released in Beijing on Friday showed.


2014

Trade deficit between India and China increased about 34 per cent to USD 48.43 billion in 2014-15 from USD 36.21 billion in the previous fiscal, Parliament was told on Wednesday.


The trade deficit between India and China has been rapidly increasing for years, largely due to increase in the import of heavy machinery and manufactured goods, mostly for infrastructure projects.

But it was definitely not $20 billion in 2014 when MMS left the office. It has not been $20 billion since at least 2009-2010.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Iyersan » 06 Jul 2017 08:30

India asks China to retreat from Bhutanese territory
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 462861.cms

War on the cards

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya_V » 06 Jul 2017 13:22

Iyersan wrote:India asks China to retreat from Bhutanese territory
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 462861.cms

War on the cards


Waris only on the cards if the Chinese Leadership get the habit from thier Munna. As long as we are prepared and our capability is good Chinese will not attack

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby chola » 06 Jul 2017 13:33

Aditya_V wrote:
Iyersan wrote:India asks China to retreat from Bhutanese territory
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 462861.cms

War on the cards


Waris only on the cards if the Chinese Leadership get the habit from thier Munna. As long as we are prepared and our capability is good Chinese will not attack


We should attack if they do not.

Remember, the Cheenis' MO is to intimidate but not actually fight. So let's take advantage of the situation and actually give them the fight they threaten but do not expect.

Like the fat bully threatening a skinny be-spectacled victim, he would be completely shocked when the first blow smashes his nose and the next one to his flabby belly sends him to the ground. He will cry for his mommy in complete disbelief.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Kakarat » 06 Jul 2017 14:12

chola wrote:We should attack if they do not.

Remember, the Cheenis' MO is to intimidate but not actually fight. So let's take advantage of the situation and actually give them the fight they threaten but do not expect.

Like the fat bully threatening a skinny be-spectacled victim, he would be completely shocked when the first blow smashes his nose and the next one to his flabby belly sends him to the ground. He will cry for his mommy in complete disbelief.


You wont be asking for war if you are in the border and your life is at stake, in a war even if we can be victorious many of our soldiers will still be lost and no responsible nation will go to war and will try to solve issues diplomatically.

Remember even after so many provocations by TSP including death of many of our soldiers we have never started a War

I am not saying that we are not capable or we should runaway from War, but War should be only the last option and we should be prepared for it

So stop this war mongering and this includes you Iyersan

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Marten » 06 Jul 2017 14:17

+! Kakarat, thank you Sir. We may or not be prepared for war, but need to be far more circumspect about this war mongering.

Iyersan
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Iyersan » 06 Jul 2017 14:19

Kakarat wrote:
chola wrote:We should attack if they do not.

Remember, the Cheenis' MO is to intimidate but not actually fight. So let's take advantage of the situation and actually give them the fight they threaten but do not expect.

Like the fat bully threatening a skinny be-spectacled victim, he would be completely shocked when the first blow smashes his nose and the next one to his flabby belly sends him to the ground. He will cry for his mommy in complete disbelief.


You wont be asking for war if you are in the border and your life is at stake, in a war even if we can be victorious many of our soldiers will still be lost and no responsible nation will go to war and will try to solve issues diplomatically.

Remember even after so many provocations by TSP including death of many of our soldiers we have never started a War

I am not saying that we are not capable or we should runaway from War, but War should be only the last option and we should be prepared for it

So stop this war mongering and this includes you Iyersan


Will war mongering on BRF lead to actual war. Lets talk abt the Chinese state media war mongering shall we?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby kapilrdave » 06 Jul 2017 14:23

I dont think we should attack china at this point ie. before sorting out porkies. But if they try even a smallest skirmish hoping to get away with it, we should escalate the offensive very rapidly and unexpectedly. Immediate use of heavy air power should be used. This will deny them the time to build up the force+logistics and leave a permanent fear of losing a war before even starting it.

But before all that happens, let the pingpongs try to intrude *with* their rifles in their hand. :rotfl:
Gen. Rawat should send a message similar to that he sent to the stone pelters of valley.... pickup the guns instead of stones and see our response.... :mrgreen:

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Prasad » 06 Jul 2017 14:35

A serious count of what each side has to throw at the other -
http://thediplomat.com/2017/07/chinas-c ... -of-india/

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby chola » 06 Jul 2017 14:49

Prasad wrote:A serious count of what each side has to throw at the other -
http://thediplomat.com/2017/07/chinas-c ... -of-india/


This is indicative of the advantages we have over Cheen in our theater:

Unlike in the past, the PLAAF now operates year-round from TAR, with reportedly some 24 combat aircraft, a mix of J-10s and J-11s


If we cannot overwhelm a mere 24 J-10s and J-11s then we might as well shut up about China and simply ignore them as a rival because it is pointless to even talk about them.

"Unlike the past," meaning even this small number of warplanes is a recent ability. Compared to literally hundreds of IAF aircraft spread across 33 airfields within striking range of the border. Our advantages are immense but meaningless if we are dhoti shivering too much in face of Cheen to actually wield them.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Prasad » 06 Jul 2017 15:10

Threat to IAF isn't from PLAAF based out of Tibet, even if they augment the rotating ones with more detachments. Threat is to airbases in the form of missile attacks and SAMs within Tibet.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby deejay » 06 Jul 2017 15:22

Prasad wrote:Threat to IAF isn't from PLAAF based out of Tibet, even if they augment the rotating ones with more detachments. Threat is to airbases in the form of missile attacks and SAMs within Tibet.


Similar threat as faced by PLAAF.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby pankajs » 06 Jul 2017 18:45

Unless they have deployed something akin to Russian S-300/400 how are they going to prevent IAF from operating from within our airspace? 50-60 km range air defense system will need to be deployed right at the border to have any impact. In a defensive war IAF is mostly going to operate from within our airspace no.

Also folks are thinking of deep strikes and some have even commented on the nuclear dimension. Bhai war is not a joke or a video game. Border skirmishes perhaps, some intrusion possible but nothing beyond that. It is in the interest of both countries to keep things localized even a major flareup.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Rahul M » 06 Jul 2017 21:45

>> Unless they have deployed something akin to Russian S-300/400

they have, look up HQ-9. which is why brahmos- both IA & IAF versions (among other things) are such a high priority for IAF.

pankajs
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby pankajs » 06 Jul 2017 22:22

There is Brahmos which was tested for behind the mountain/hill strike and there was one another missile which was heard once and never to make an appearance again. It was the cousin of Sagarika.

OK .. got it. Shaurya!

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby nam » 07 Jul 2017 01:05

Rahul M wrote:>> Unless they have deployed something akin to Russian S-300/400

they have, look up HQ-9. which is why brahmos- both IA & IAF versions (among other things) are such a high priority for IAF.


Wonder if Brahmos can have Anti-Radiation seaker, to act as ARM. It has most of the qualities for ARM, speed & range...

So HQ-9 radar can be a juicy target at 200-400 KM standoff.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 07 Jul 2017 01:15

Guys please got to Strat forum Managing China threat thread. Please don't post here as its difficult to follow so many threads on different forums.
Thanks, ramana

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby DrRatnadip » 08 Jul 2017 16:23

xxxxxwww.dawn.com/news/1344012/5-civilians-killed-in-cross-loc-shelling-by-indian-troops

5 civilians killed in cross-LoC shelling by Indian troops

As India-held Kashmir braced for stepped-up policing Saturday on the occasion of the first death anniversary of famed Hizbul Mujahideen commander Burhan Wani, Indian troops resorted to heavy shelling in different areas of Azad Jammu and Kashmir from across the Line of Control (LoC), officials said.

At least five civilians, four of them women, were reported killed and 10 others injured in the shelling incidents, the highest death toll in a single day in many months of cross-border violence
Last edited by Rahul M on 08 Jul 2017 20:47, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: url disabled

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby sum » 08 Jul 2017 17:30

What really did Shri Wani do that he became a "famed" commander?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby chetak » 08 Jul 2017 17:41

sum wrote:What really did Shri Wani do that he became a "famed" commander?


any cute pretty boy type is destined to be a "youth icon".

very capable chap. He could do his own make up before he took selfies for his facebook posts. No other "famed" commander could do that.

Money really poured in from donations and people signed up in good numbers.

Presstitutes loved him and the lady anchors, especially the runditv types, creamed their panties when reporting his wondrous feats.

It is called marketing. :lol:

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Sid » 08 Jul 2017 20:36

Why are we linking articles from "Dawn" and letting BRF contribute yo its traffic ? Isn't NDTV enough?

fanne
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Posts: 2548
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby fanne » 08 Jul 2017 20:38

btw all dawn and tsp links have viruses/worms/Trojan that your vanilla antivirus/spyware cannot detect. Visit at your own risk

nirav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2005
Joined: 31 Aug 2004 00:22
Location: Mumbai

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby nirav » 08 Jul 2017 21:22

fanne wrote:btw all dawn and tsp links have viruses/worms/Trojan that your vanilla antivirus/spyware cannot detect. Visit at your own risk


I've gotten alerts on a Paki "defence forum".. never on dawn.. are you sure about this Saar ?


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