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India Border Watch: Security and Operations

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Karthik S
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karthik S » 02 May 2017 20:08

Spoke well, but????

ArjunPandit
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ArjunPandit » 02 May 2017 20:47

nam wrote:One thing I am yet to understand is how are Pakis able to maintain conflict (even low level) against India, Afghanistan, Iranian border, Baluchistan & Waristan.

How come Pakis are able to beg/borrow/manufacture ammo for 5 fronts? while we crib all the time.

It sounds so bizzare that India which haven't fought a major war since 2003 is always short of ammo, while the bl***dy Pakis have been bombing & killing thousands since years and yet have time to needle a country having 8 times it's GDP.

Pakistan v/s others: No
1. India: Coz we dont respond with the danda the deserve their stocks are not depleted
2. Rest countries: They dont face an army at the max moderately armed militias exploiting the terrain.
I am sure after the arti duels begin white flag will be up shortly. I dont see the day when very far when the thoughts echoed here on BRF reverberate in the voices of our nation. Till then all we can do is try to bring that day earlier.

RohitAM
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby RohitAM » 02 May 2017 23:03

I certainly agree with the sentiment here. Its about time that we declared Pakistan a failed economy (basket case) and a terrorist country, cut off absolutely every tie with them (close their consulate and throw the Paki ambassador and his staff out), and enabled the military to have a full hand in dealing with the Pakis as they see fit. If that means leveling Skardu with a massive artillery/MBRL/missile barrage, then so be it. If it means wrecking absolute havoc behind the LoC via huge fire missions, then that's open season too. If it entails unleashing a few Brahmos rounds into PA HQ's, Ammo Depots, and Bases/Barracks in PoK and GB, so be it - the nation should be able to look at the Pakis in the face and tell them, "Come with what you got. Either this perpetual hatred and enmity from your end stops, or we will make it economically unviable for you to stand against us, not to mention that we will make it impossible for you to co-exist within 15-20 km's of the LoC. Nothing will survive there, we'll make sure of it."

And then take back PoK for good measure. That has been our perpetual problem - we have never understood how much bullying Pakistan can take before cracking and going rogue, and then being permanently destroyed. Can we absolutely wreck the PA's retaliatory and war-fighting capability along the LoC without a meaningful response? Can we level Skardu and other military installations without a military escalation from the PA? Can we take back PoK without Pakistan declaring a full-blown war on us? I honestly think that the time is upon us when the Armed Forces should be allowed to discern as to how much of a punitive escalation we can do without getting into a complete state of war or pushing the Pakistani nuclear threshold.

Until we get down to the brass tacks of wrecking the retards so badly that they think twice about sending another terrorist or a BAT across the LoC, we will not get anywhere, and we will remain caught up in this perpetual cycle of violence and "kadi ninda".

darshhan
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby darshhan » 02 May 2017 23:26

Karthik S wrote:First declare pak a terrorist state. RS MP Rajiv C brought in private member bill to declare pak that, but it didn't pass.


Who opposed?

ramana
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 03 May 2017 00:38

Mostly Rajnath Singh and his Ministry.

ramana
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 03 May 2017 00:51

Gagan et al,

Can you look at POK and mark the important locations on a Google map and post here?
I am interested in rail, road links to Pakistan and all military headquarters in POK. Include the ones near the LOC.

DrRatnadip
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby DrRatnadip » 03 May 2017 00:56

In 1965 pakistan wanted to "liberate"JK by combining border war with fuelled internal revolt..One imp reason that plan wasn't successful was their inability to get enough success in encouraging local population for revolt..Are they trying to repeat something similar? suppose army launches full scale assault on pak in near future due to some or other gruesome paki act what will be reaction of increasingly stone pelting crowd of JK..I mean these people have gathered enough courage to demand dead body of terrorists..pak is sure to use them for disturbing/ sabotaging army movements..Use force to suppress pigs and regular culprits in media will lable it as Genocide/ human right violation etc etc..Its not that i care what they say.. m just curious to know upto what extent this stone pelting crowd will hamper our capability to wage war against pak ..

Gagan
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Gagan » 03 May 2017 01:03

I don't want India to change what it it doing now.
1. Continue diplomatic relations - these are necessary, and quite useful to stick a diplomatic bayonet up Paki arse, and use it if any indian citizen is in trouble and Pakistani help is needed.
2. The response to a military provocation needs to be military, economic and political.
- India is not willing to notify Pakistan as a terrorist state - doing so will mean breaking off diplomatic relations.
- Taking out Pakistani soldiers, JCOs, Junior Officers is not going to change pakistan's policy. The senior officer corps is the one who orders these attacks. Attacking them will bring temporary relief. And India must take back indian territory now to up the ante

Pakistan won't change its use of terrorism as a policy simply because they can't.
They can't stop terrorism, because:
1. It is an industry, both economic, religious and political
2. Terrorism is now intwined and well entrenched in their fauji thought process - it is part and parcel of what and who they are.
3. Solving J&K will not stop terrorism, concessions to Pakistan will not stop terrorism, trade will not stop terrorism - in fact Pakistan does NOT want trade with India.

The Pakistani army does not want to improve relations with india - if they did, they would stop terrorism and indulge in trade, give their civilians a free hand. They are about to do none of these things. Their hold on power, terrorism and hatred against India & Hindus, using islamism in the worst possibly way fesable, milking the pakistani nation dry are all intertwined. These guys do not have the motivation to give it up.

The only possible motivation will be further breakup of Pakistan - that will however fuel further insecurities.
India is not doing enough to help along the breakup of Pakistan - infact it is mostly lip service. The global powers that be, don't want to disturb the world order, and India has limitations that way, and due to the fact, that India will NOT sponsor terrorism.
Ultimately, we will have to wait for Karma to catch up with Pakistan and its evil deeds. This is the sad truth.

Neela
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Neela » 03 May 2017 01:14

CPEC should have nice new shiny targets.
Get China to come to talks while pumelling down Chinese funded infrastructure in PoK. #
It will set the conditions:
1. India will not tolerate CPEC in PoK
2. India will not spare Pakis.
3. India will claim its land back by force if needed and the intent will never go.

Bart S
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Bart S » 03 May 2017 01:26

DrRatnadip wrote:In 1965 pakistan wanted to "liberate"JK by combining border war with fuelled internal revolt..One imp reason that plan wasn't successful was their inability to get enough success in encouraging local population for revolt..Are they trying to repeat something similar? suppose army launches full scale assault on pak in near future due to some or other gruesome paki act what will be reaction of increasingly stone pelting crowd of JK..I mean these people have gathered enough courage to demand dead body of terrorists..pak is sure to use them for disturbing/ sabotaging army movements..Use force to suppress pigs and regular culprits in media will lable it as Genocide/ human right violation etc etc..Its not that i care what they say.. m just curious to know upto what extent this stone pelting crowd will hamper our capability to wage war against pak ..


No need to worry about that. When the nation is at formal war, these stones that are thrown will be returned with bullets. Will be SOP and nobody will bat an eyelid, WKK's who complain would be in for a rude surprise from the reaction from Indians of all walks of life. Of course the valley jihadis will cause complications but our forces would not have their hands tied while dealing with them.

The only unfortunate thing is that for all practical purposes, currently and for the last 30 years (probably since independence, really), we have a country that is actively at war (undeclared) with us, with whom we are not at war with (not even undeclared).

Gagan
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Gagan » 03 May 2017 01:28

Ramana Ji,
These are two maps that I will use as reference. Not the road infrastructure, or the lack of it in POK. This is only for the lower POK, which Pakistan refers to as Azad Kashmir. The upper POK, they refer to as Gilgit-Baltistan.
Main Districts:
Image
Image

Image

Image

Most roads are poor quality like this:
Image

ArjunPandit
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ArjunPandit » 03 May 2017 01:57

Everything is indian territory gagan

Gagan
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Gagan » 03 May 2017 02:00

Neelum Valley: One can see Kel and Dudnial in the map above, which were hit by the Surgical Strikes, and have been hotbeds of terror infiltration.
The hills here are densely forested and Kishtwar lies directly in the valley below. Kishtwar is another hotbed of OGWs, who host these infiltrators. Mostly these infiltrators will hide in small shacks and villages up in the forested hills, and that is where the encounters take place mostly.

Gagan
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Gagan » 03 May 2017 02:01

Some of these placemarks are dated and may be incorrect

https://productforums.google.com/d/msg/ ... UwP5YTyZUJ
Last edited by Gagan on 03 May 2017 02:15, edited 1 time in total.

Khalsa
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Khalsa » 03 May 2017 02:05

ramana wrote:Mostly Rajnath Singh and his Ministry.

Why is that ?

Rudradev
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Rudradev » 03 May 2017 02:06

DrRatnadip wrote:In 1965 pakistan wanted to "liberate"JK by combining border war with fuelled internal revolt..One imp reason that plan wasn't successful was their inability to get enough success in encouraging local population for revolt..Are they trying to repeat something similar? suppose army launches full scale assault on pak in near future due to some or other gruesome paki act what will be reaction of increasingly stone pelting crowd of JK..I mean these people have gathered enough courage to demand dead body of terrorists..pak is sure to use them for disturbing/ sabotaging army movements..Use force to suppress pigs and regular culprits in media will lable it as Genocide/ human right violation etc etc..Its not that i care what they say.. m just curious to know upto what extent this stone pelting crowd will hamper our capability to wage war against pak ..


Stone pelting, slogan shouting etc. in a situation where you know the security forces have one hand tied behind their back is one thing. It is a stage-managed drama of civil disorder expressly devised to provoke incidents where if one shot is fired, they can loudly whine about "human rights" etc. They know that nothing (worse than being tied to the front of a jeep) will happen to them for exactly this reason.

Interfering with IA ops in the middle of a hot war is something very different, and will have very different consequences. They will find that out if they try. Most likely not even a single stone-pelting AoA-shouting valley Muslim will have the guts to attempt it.

Bart S
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Bart S » 03 May 2017 02:11

Gagan wrote:2. The response to a military provocation needs to be military, economic and political.
- India is not willing to notify Pakistan as a terrorist state - doing so will mean breaking off diplomatic relations.


I don't understand this part. Why would it result in that? Why can't we designate them a state sponsor of terror while still retaining a modicum of diplomatic presence?

We could do it the smart way by having a whole system of sanctions so any entity that wants to augment Pakistan's warfighting ability or ability to threaten India gets banned from the Indian market for a specific timeframe (unless they fill a critical requirement and apply for a waiver). So if SAAB (now Ericsson I guess) wants to sell AWACS to them, no telco or aerospace contracts from India for you. If Boeing wants to sell (donate actually) harpoons to them, guess what we are paying for them indirectly so we favor Airbus. If Walmart wants to sell Pakistani towels, we go slow on their Indian expansion plans....well that might be going a bit too far but might be something that we can do unofficially.

And this can be extended to much much more...for example just like diamonds sold in the west have to be certified 'conflict free' we should demand that any goods sold in India should have no ingredients or components that transited through the illegal CPEC pathways going through occupied Indian land.

OT for this thread, so my apologies for that.

ramana
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 03 May 2017 04:50

BartS, You know it doesn't work like that.
Lets not bring our pet peeves here.
Let Gagan do his work.

Gagan
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Gagan » 03 May 2017 05:12

The way pakistani defences are structured is, several border posts, right on the LOC, manned by a few soldiers, usually opposite a corresponding indian post as much as possible. There is a bigger base usually at a high vantage point, a few Kms back. Usually this base has a helipad, and a direct view of the forward posts.

There are artillery gun positions here and there, usually 5-20 kms from the LOC.

For example:
Hajipir Pass: Base where paki COAS visited 33°57'48.75"N, 74° 4'18.72"E

Artillery gun position on Hajipir (?130/155mm): 33°57'8.67"N, 74° 3'59.47"E

Forward post, trenches and sanghar: 34° 2'4.75"N, 74° 9'5.43"E
Post: 34° 0'30.37"N, 74°12'27.05"E
Post: 33°59'56.97"N, 74°14'48.56"E
Larger post: 33°56'28.39"N, 74°16'13.70"E

Posts are all on hilltops, and ridge lines/ watershed lines. Pakistani posts are very small, the corresponding Indian posts are massive, upto 10x in size, even bigger in some cases. Indian posts are well connected, with roads allowing jeeps to drive upto most of them.
Doesn't look like the Pakistanis can withstand much of an assault, they are there just to show their presence mostly.

Kakkaji
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Kakkaji » 03 May 2017 05:58

How do such smaller posts provide effective cover fire to infiltrators against much larger Indian posts?

During Gen. VKS time, IA had created its own counterparts of the Paki BAT that were quite effective. They were disbanded after the Congis kicked him out.

Chidambaram did more harm to India than even Anthony. :evil:

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Bishwa » 03 May 2017 06:07

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... l-4638185/

This article provides a history... it is by praveen swami

ramana
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 03 May 2017 07:12

Sorry to say but Pravin Swamy always justifies Paki military/ terrorist activities.

So there is no real confirmation that any Pakis were killed in the shelling in April17th.

looks like some intel babu is peddling a story lapped up by Pravin Swami to spread fear and confusion.
Does the intel babu know how many Pakis died on 17 April? And whom?
No he has no clue but wants to say this BAT raid is a retaliation to that shelling casualties which may or may not have occurred.

sum
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby sum » 03 May 2017 08:06

Saar, I recall that TSP papers reports were posted in BRF itself of losses of TSPA folks in shelling in that timeframe. So i wouldnt doubt it happened but that diesnt in anyways relate to current mutilation which Swami seems to be peddling

Bishwa
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Bishwa » 03 May 2017 08:36

Pravin Swamy says "Pakistan’s X Corps, made up of the 23 Infantry Division, 12 Infantry Division, 19 Infantry Division and Force Command Gilgit-Baltistan, has some 100,000-125,000 troops"

At one time, till recently, 19 Infantry Division was operating in SWAT in NWFP under Peshawar Corp for CI.

Any idea if this division is back in X Corp Orbat?

krishna_krishna
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby krishna_krishna » 03 May 2017 09:32

+1000, I know this from chaiwala the damage by that unit was so severe that porki soldiers even refused to man forward posts at night, initially they did one or two retaliatory strikes to save HD but cross border strikes totally stopped with porkis begging to stop.

The only thing that will stop this kabilawala is loss of HD which are more ruthless covert operations targeting seniors ,and when butt Hurst rub it in with more dosa requests

Kakkaji wrote:How do such smaller posts provide effective cover fire to infiltrators against much larger Indian posts?

During Gen. VKS time, IA had created its own counterparts of the Paki BAT that were quite effective. They were disbanded after the Congis kicked him out.

Chidambaram did more harm to India than even Anthony. :evil:

Philip
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Philip » 03 May 2017 12:56

Each time a Paki atrocity happens,it is the equiv of a recurring nightmare,played back again and again.We simply repeat the stale past their sell-by date slogans about "befitting replies" etc. I wonder whether a tailor is required for the "fitting " part,why this "bespoke" reply from India is taking so long in coming!

Anyway,if the GOI means business with Pak in the future,the kind that emanates from the barrel of a gun,the IA needs to be given a free hand and it should have a menu of options to choose from ,graded responses depending upon the severity of the atrocity/attack and the long-term strategy of the IA. Our first aim should be to destroy as much of the Paki mil machine as possible including men and material. The second goal should be -as a member has suggested above,the reclamation of POK bit by bit. Our magnificent strategy over Siachen,where we will not yield an inch of territory,should be the yardstick of our resolve.but in view of the Paki intransigence,we need to move further forward. A Kargil in reverse for continuous Paki perfidy. Needless to say a long-term strategy to destroy/dismantle Pak as a n entity should take place.I've said this for a long time,a "triad" of diplomatic,military and eco measures against Pak should be systematically ramped up,turning the screw tighter and tighter by the day.Our endeavour should be unrelenting and any nation that tries to interfere on the side of Pak,should be scorned and brushed aside with contempt. Those nations arming and funding Pak should also not be rewarded by India by awarding them mil deals,etc. The world should know that India has had enough.

The Pakis in uniform will never,never accept peace with India.Therefore the very raison-d'etre of their state needs to be shattered never to be repaired. Independent movements in Baluchistan,Sindh,the NWFP/ Af-Pak region and the POK recovery need to be engraved within our grand strategy. Needless to say,this calls for a complete revision of the def. and security architecture of the country in the light of the Sino-Paki JV against India. Destroying Pakj will not happen overnight,but to quote a famous Chinese saying," a journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step". Is India willing to step out"

rgosain
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby rgosain » 03 May 2017 13:11

Philip wrote:Each time a Paki atrocity happens,it is the equiv of a recurring nightmare,played back again and again.We simply repeat the stale past their sell-by date slogans about "befitting replies" etc. I wonder whether a tailor is required for the "fitting " part,why this "bespoke" reply from India is taking so long in coming!

Anyway,if the GOI means business with Pak in the future,the kind that emanates from the barrel of a gun,the IA needs to be given a free hand and it should have a menu of options to choose from ,graded responses depending upon the severity of the atrocity/attack and the long-term strategy of the IA. Our first aim should be to destroy as much of the Paki mil machine as possible including men and material. The second goal should be -as a member has suggested above,the reclamation of POK bit by bit. Our magnificent strategy over Siachen,where we will not yield an inch of territory,should be the yardstick of our resolve.but in view of the Paki intransigence,we need to move further forward. A Kargil in reverse for continuous Paki perfidy. Needless to say a long-term strategy to destroy/dismantle Pak as a n entity should take place.I've said this for a long time,a "triad" of diplomatic,military and eco measures against Pak should be systematically ramped up,turning the screw tighter and tighter by the day.Our endeavour should be unrelenting and any nation that tries to interfere on the side of Pak,should be scorned and brushed aside with contempt. Those nations arming and funding Pak should also not be rewarded by India by awarding them mil deals,etc. The world should know that India has had enough.

The Pakis in uniform will never,never accept peace with India.Therefore the very raison-d'etre of their state needs to be shattered never to be repaired. Independent movements in Baluchistan,Sindh,the NWFP/ Af-Pak region and the POK recovery need to be engraved within our grand strategy. Needless to say,this calls for a complete revision of the def. and security architecture of the country in the light of the Sino-Paki JV against India. Destroying Pakj will not happen overnight,but to quote a famous Chinese saying," a journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step". Is India willing to step out"

Phil totally agree with you and one of the first steps to take is to abrogate 370 citing the presence of the PRC in POK, and adjacent to Ladakh which have changed the facts on the ground since 1948. This should be coupled with rehousing ex srvicemen who are armed into the villages and properties that were vacated by the Pandit families to create the kind of security architecture that Israel has in the occupied territory. The cost of this can compensate the Pandits and is a fraction of the subsidies dished out to j/k every year.

Philip
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Philip » 03 May 2017 14:09

I've mentioned the same thingy before,setting up of linked "forts" in Kashmir,within which the Pandits are relocated.These "forts" could be called Fort Jawahar,Indira,Kaul,whatever! They will be self-contained settlements where Pandits can live,work and enjoy recreation safe and sound .The forts could cover large hillsides,and be designed to take into account the local terrain. Being on higher ground,they would be able to command views of the surroundings.Designed like ancient Roman camps/fortified settlements,they could have typical fort outer walls,bulwarks,bastions,etc,with adequate space to accommodate mil units. Helipads and if land allows it,some could even have small airstrips where light aircraft could operate from. It would be v. difficult to attack/penetrate the forts ,which would also feature UG infrastructure and adequate weaponry Such forts linked together every "X" miles or so,

If you look at the manner in which Israel has constructed its settlements in the West Bank/Jerusalem,brilliantly designed using local stone which make these dwellings bullet proof,etc.,one would get a good idea what we should do in J&K.Mr.Modi should take a good look at the Israeli settlement strategy and see how elements of it could be used in J&K.

Other measures that have been suggested are abrogating the Indus Water treaty,eco sanctions,etc. These diplo/eco punishments could be simultaneously meted out to Pak. No talks with Pak upfront or by the "ars*hole route" too until cross-border terror ceases and has been seen to cease for a goodly length of time!
Last edited by Philip on 03 May 2017 14:17, edited 1 time in total.

nam
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby nam » 03 May 2017 14:11

Bishwa wrote:Pravin Swamy says "Pakistan’s X Corps, made up of the 23 Infantry Division, 12 Infantry Division, 19 Infantry Division and Force Command Gilgit-Baltistan, has some 100,000-125,000 troops"

At one time, till recently, 19 Infantry Division was operating in SWAT in NWFP under Peshawar Corp for CI.

Any idea if this division is back in X Corp Orbat?


There was a Paki video of a program on Poonch area, where one of the guy mentioned they were deployed in SWAT in combat and now deployed on LOC. There were some grinning indicates the deployment was R&R.

The Pakis seems to having manpower issues.

nam
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby nam » 03 May 2017 14:36

Gagan wrote:The way pakistani defences are structured is, several border posts, right on the LOC, manned by a few soldiers, usually opposite a corresponding indian post as much as possible. There is a bigger base usually at a high vantage point, a few Kms back. Usually this base has a helipad, and a direct view of the forward posts.



We need to dislodge the pakis around Uri where they are in heights. And make the OGW hotbeads a no man's zone with constant artillery fire.

Ear mark a area which can can be easily reached from our posts. Everytime Paki try their act, send a brigade to capture this area, make a PR video, announce Turley style anti-terror ops complete and come back. Paki H&D will be constantly hurt.


Even for a tactical solution there are tons of options. Only if we apply some.

vinod
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby vinod » 03 May 2017 15:23

Why can't we just capture a bit of strategic land each time they do this? Inch by Inch we capture all of POK. Can we game this?

Aditya_V
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya_V » 03 May 2017 17:07

vinod wrote:Why can't we just capture a bit of strategic land each time they do this? Inch by Inch we capture all of POK. Can we game this?


Are you serious, it will cost a lot of lives and Pakis are well defended. Unless you are advocating an all out war, were we dont yet have military advantage thanks to thinning of our arms and ammunition and non serviceability of equipment mainly in the 2004-14 period.

and learning from Operation Parakram, the media is quite in favor of Pakis, the majority in this country were not for an all out war where Nukes could be used. Plus the International Powers squeezed our balls.

That requires years of preparation, Militarily production, a local Military Industrial Complex etc. Which needs a nationalistic govt for at least 10 years, not a Govt which cancelled the Denel Guns since it caused too much casualties, create Hindu terror Phobia, talk about making borders irrelevant etc.

We have limited options and we are not in a position where we overwhelm the Pakis quickly and take POK. In the meantime, we should attack at a time or place of our choosing, not just being reactionary.

Sorry there are no easy solutions and just asking soldiers to make blind assaults to capture land without a strategic goal can never happen. The Pakis are well defended and have the infrastruture to sustain and evict our soldiers in small scale conflicts. Only a full blown conflict where we thrrow everything at them when we have the necessary miltary superiority can we recover land. For that we need years of preparation and it has to be time of our choosing.

One more thing the miltants are cannon fodder, we need to hit the PA hard with casualties and loss of equipment.

vinod
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby vinod » 03 May 2017 17:29

Aditya_V wrote: Are you serious, it will cost a lot of lives and Pakis are well defended. Unless you are advocating an all out war, were we dont yet have military advantage thanks to thinning of our arms and ammunition and non serviceability of equipment mainly in the 2004-14 period.


Are you saying we still haven't got our ammo and equipment act together in the last 3 years and still can't hit puny PA? I doubt that...
No one wants a nuclear war, I agree. That is probably the only reason which is keeping Pak alive. Also, once the Pak's land is captured, we will know our true friends and many will be forced to show their true colours.

Let us assume, we captured few sq kms of strategic hills in POK overnight, what next? Pak will try to take it back... just like kargil in reverse. Will they declare all out war? Or can we talk it out? This we have to game and see... that's all I'm suggesting. Who will diplomatically back us, best time and opportunity to do this, what we need, how to prevent escalation, sanctions, blockades, bribe pak generals... whatever is involved, should be gamed.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby nam » 03 May 2017 17:36

vinod wrote:Why can't we just capture a bit of strategic land each time they do this? Inch by Inch we capture all of POK. Can we game this?


I do understand that we claim PoK, but frankly I dont know if it is even worth it. Why would we want to feed more nutcases like we are doing in kashmir?

The moment India announces a campaign to capture PoK, instead of refugees escaping war as it happens in the rest of the world, pretty sure half of Pakjabis will land up in PoK claiming residency and indian citizenship.

Who wouldn't want GoI bankrolled life, growing apples, least poverty in south asia, with option to throw stones when bored, like they do in Kashmir.

On the other side, as long as PoK is still PoK.. we can test our 155mm on a regular basis with Pak gov responsible for feeding the mouths.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Gagan » 03 May 2017 17:56

Giving back Hajipir pass in 65' was a big mistake.
India should have stood its ground and said, this is Indian territory, that has been liberated.

I was also thinking of a DMZ type situation whereever possible along the LOC to begin with. Any person there will be shot.

The other thing that irks me is the presence of Pakistani posts. Why are they there in the first place?
They are not protecting pakistan against infiltrators, they are there only to act as observation posts to push in terrorists, and assist smugglers.

IA needs to flatten their artillery gun positions, attack with hundreds of Rudras, LCHs and saturate their airspace and land with advancing forces. IA & IAF need to build up such capabilities that they can really soften or even flatten an area, and then ground forces move in for mopping up. Artillery is not too accurate at these high altitudes, due to strong winds all over the place

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby nam » 03 May 2017 18:29

Gagan wrote:Giving back Hajipir pass in 65' was a big mistake.
India should have stood its ground and said, this is Indian territory, that has been liberated.


I can think of Chamb area. Dont know why we let Pakis sit on Chamb in 65. That flank should have been cleared.

Having said that there was no concrete attempt to get Hajipir in 71.

DMZ is a must.

Not just the PA post, Pakis GDP apparently grew 5%. Nobody questioned GoI why was it allowed. 5% of 250= 12.5, 10% of 12.5=1.25. On paper PA get's it hand on 1.25 billion more this year for it's terror factory.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby rsangram » 03 May 2017 18:47

Aditya_V wrote:
vinod wrote:Why can't we just capture a bit of strategic land each time they do this? Inch by Inch we capture all of POK. Can we game this?


Are you serious, it will cost a lot of lives and Pakis are well defended. Unless you are advocating an all out war, were we dont yet have military advantage thanks to thinning of our arms and ammunition and non serviceability of equipment mainly in the 2004-14 period.

and learning from Operation Parakram, the media is quite in favor of Pakis, the majority in this country were not for an all out war where Nukes could be used. Plus the International Powers squeezed our balls.

That requires years of preparation, Militarily production, a local Military Industrial Complex etc. Which needs a nationalistic govt for at least 10 years, not a Govt which cancelled the Denel Guns since it caused too much casualties, create Hindu terror Phobia, talk about making borders irrelevant etc.

We have limited options and we are not in a position where we overwhelm the Pakis quickly and take POK. In the meantime, we should attack at a time or place of our choosing, not just being reactionary.

Sorry there are no easy solutions and just asking soldiers to make blind assaults to capture land without a strategic goal can never happen. The Pakis are well defended and have the infrastruture to sustain and evict our soldiers in small scale conflicts. Only a full blown conflict where we thrrow everything at them when we have the necessary miltary superiority can we recover land. For that we need years of preparation and it has to be time of our choosing.

One more thing the miltants are cannon fodder, we need to hit the PA hard with casualties and loss of equipment.


Aditya,

I dont know you from Adam, nor for that matter do I know Vinod, but in your starting phrae "Are you serious", you are expressing outrage at Vinod for merely suggesting that we take a few inches of Paki territory. Why this feigned outrage or even annoyance at him ?

First off, you are pretending like everyone is aware or should be aware that Indian army is woefully unprepared to fight a war with PAki due to years of neglect and treacherous, nay- traitorous corruption, criminal ommission and deliberate sabotage by successive governments. In actual fact, everyone does not know and in fact most people DO NOT know. On the contrary, most Indians are so ignorant of this that they will laugh to your face, erroneously of course, but nevertheless, if you told them that the Indian army does not have the weapon systems, the aircrafts, the guns, the equipment, snow jackets, shoes, even the ammo and the preparedness to sustain even a limited war with Paki. So has been our Indian government propaganda for decades, supported by all sections of our society, the bureaucrats, the armed forces leadership and even the jingos on this forum, that most Indians think, we can kick Paki ass in our sleep anytime. Jingoistic threads on this forum, ridiculing the PAki and branding it as "failed state" do nothing to educate our countrymen, but actually further their ignorance and complacency. Even the Vajpayee government is complicit in this, at least in part, as evidenced by the fact that they did not bring it to the attention of the country using a loud megaphone, that they inherited this mess. And dont tell me, that doing that would have alerted our enemies that we are woefully weak. Our enemies are the first to know and already know, only the Indian public does not know. Besides, even the Vajpayee government did not do much to streamline our procurement systems, establish clear pipelines for our weapon systems with a strategic vision and by reaching strategic long term agreements via relationship building with appropriate countries, heavily cracking down on corruption in our defense purchases, cutting down the time for purchases, increasing massively the defense budget etc. Successive governments including BJP governments have failed to recognize that diplomacy is not a tool for niceties, junkets, state dinners, flattery, ego stroking, and photo ops for domestic consumption, but is a hard tool to a) firm up our hardcore political goals, b) firm up our hardcore defense procurement goals via RELIABLE pipelines for weapon systems and their spare parts, enhancement and support and c) to firm up the supply agreements for creating reliable and ironclad pipelines for essential commodities such as oil in the event of war, specially in the event of war.

So the failure has been on many fronts.

1. On the political front, it has been a failure of our system of governance, which we have called "democracy" and hold more sacrosanct than God Himself, which in actuality is nothing but classic KLEPTOCRACY (rule by thieves). Once people understand that we have been living under Kleptocracy, at least for the past 70 years, it is easy to see how thieves as rulers will be completely detrimental to our national security, through their massive thievery and corruption. Apart from neglect and indifference, which have been the LEAST of the problems with this political system, this system has indulged in a non stop orgy of brazen and outright thievery of public funds, particularly earmarked for defense, as in this system where everything is opaque, defense deals are the most opaque and least transparent of them all. This massive thievery every day, year after year has completely hollowed out our defenses

2. On the diplomatic front too, the Kleptocracy over the years, has used international forums to a) pompously and ignorantly lecturing and hectoring our potential partners, allies, reliable supplier of arms, reliable supplier of essential products, in the name of anti-colonialism and morality. There is a purpose to this. This kind of moral and pompous posture helps the kleptocrats rob the nation blind by demogogically tapping into the deep seated resentments of common Indians against colonialism, which are legitimate and deep seated pride in our ancient civilization, which to an extent is also legitimate, b) for years appeasing, in fact, gorvelling and attempting to align with the exactly wrong kind of people in the form of Islamic governments, socialists and communists, who all have been Kleptocracies in their own right - some more, some less, but none more than India, but all enemies of India and its civiliizational ethos, c) and using foreign trips and posting as opportunities to travel and party and do nothing else, using it as an official entitlement to be used as a status symbol back home - Indian embassy postings and functioning is a prime example of that, for those who have dealt with these establishments, and d) very obviously, the kleptocrats did not define a hard nationalistic, Indian interest oriented foreign policy and foreign policy doctrine, since, kleptocrats - thieves - have no interest in that - they only have an interest in stealing and thieves who are the scum of any society, cannot be expected to have the intellectual heft to remotely have the ability to do that

3. On the defense front, the upper echelons, above the rank of Major, maybe Colonels, have mostly brought themselves to become a part of the kleptocratic babus and politicians and have over the years become totally complicit with them, leaving the lower level and junior officers and enlisted men, such as the Jawans, to their own devices - kinda like orphans, and yes, even fodder at the border with no support. We who delight in calling the terrorists being used as fodder for the Pak Army, should look inside our own selves and ask if it is not true that we use our young, bright junior officers such as Captains, Majors, and jawans, ranging in ages from 19, 20, 22....as fodder or not ?

4. On the general Indian population front, we have failed in many areas. Our narrow vested interest oriented thinking, which manifests itself in casteism, regionlism, langaugeism, but mainly casteism. An average Indian has come to worship the word "Democracy" and our actual Kleptocracy, because he thinks that the rule of thieves is the best protection for all his base instincts such as separatism, casteism, and unwillingness to think strategically and long term. So, an Indian has come to guard the word "Democracy" and the system of Kleptocracy as zealously and fanatically as the Muslims guards Muhammed and Islam. In purusing our narrow agenda, an average Indian overlooks and ignores that fact that a) we dont have realy democracy, in fact far from it, we have Kleptocracy in the name of democracy - the rule by thieves, and b) that even if we had anything resembling a real democracy, democracy is only after all a means, the end are Pride, self respect, territorial integrity, sovereignty, freedom of action, economic progress and freedom of thought........in that ORDER

You, Aditya, are semonizing to Vinod, that "it takes years of preparation to go to war", as if it is Vinod's fault that he did not make these years of preparation. Direct your outrage where it belongs, towards the kleptocrats, not ordinary citizens like Vinod, who has the right to ask, why at this moment, we are not prepared for an all out war against the PAkis - as shooting straight is absolutely essential, no matter how uncommon it is in India.

Even today, we have the kleptocratic system of governance with thieves ruling, Modi not withstanding, and sadly, everything I have said above, continues to be so - YES EVEN TODAY

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Gagan » 03 May 2017 19:17

Taking Hajipir was very expensive in terms of lives lost.
Pretty close on a scale of what Kargil was. Soldiers climbing up the hills, under fire from all the sanghars.

Chamb: It is difficult to hold territory, when there is a river behind you and the enemy is on all three sides.
The Chamb sector didn't have any roads connecting to J&K. Troops had to cross the river when the water levels were low. After Simla agreement, Chamb was given to Pakistan, and India held onto several peaks in Kargil, which Pakistan had no way of accessing or defending.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya_V » 03 May 2017 19:36

Rsangram-> We all want our land back, but to suggest we just walk in capture territory bit by bit is not practical and certainly not the cost our soldiers have to pay. At the LOC level Pakis are not puny. My anger is there at the whole system. The question is how do we handle it. The problem with the baggage of the past, LOC has got some sanctity in the minds of people and so called international people who all want a stick to beat us with and we are not yet strong enough to stick it to all of them.

What if we capture a few posts, Pakis will try to counterattack, this will escalate. We will first have to wipe out thier bases, road infrastructure leading to those posts. If we have to give back those posts due to international shenanigans then it is an absolute waste of soldiers lives. we will need to use Aircraft, artillery and whatever we got, that means it becomes a hot war and Pakis will shout Nuke threat and thier International friends and Termintes within India will force us to backdown. Hell many in this forum thought or still think Operation Parakram was a big failure completely ignoring Pakistani casualties. The Media has termed it a total failure. Forgetting the Pakis downhill skied and agreed for a Ceasefire after 15 years only because of thier casualties. J&K also got a respite as the Pakis took a few years to lick thier wounds. 10 Years after Parakram they are in a mood to escalate again. We need to carefully play our cards and hand them enough causualties and get our land back.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Deans » 03 May 2017 20:37

I wrote a paper on Pakistan policy last June, identifying various non military and military measures we might take. This was summarised in this article. https://swarajyamag.com/world/a-new-non-diplomatic-approach-for-pakistan
The paper has been read by some of our policy makers.
One measure that is relevant to the LOC but not mentioned in the summary, is that we complete the Tulbul water project (which we stopped
as a goodwill gesture to Pak) and will allow us to flood the Neelam valley at will, in some parts of the year (while making the Jhelum navigable
on our side).

On the LOC there is no reason why we cannot have a battle of attrition (for e.g. in the form of cross border shelling) where Pakistan,
being the smaller player, will lose disproportionately, even if both sides suffer similar military casualties.
If we move 1 of our 2 artillery divisions into the valley and all our Pinaka and Smersh regiments, we would outnumber Pak 3:1 in artillery
and would have a huge deterrent in our ability to hit places like Murzaffarabad or Mangla/Mirpur with long range rocket artillery. If we restrict
action to the LOC only, the number of villages in POK within artillery range is more than the number which are vulnerable on the Indian side.
Besides, most of ours are Kashmiri muslim villages, so targetting them is bad optics for Pak and, to put it cynically, not such a bad thing for us. Villages in Jammu are vulnerable to firing across the IB and that is where we have to take a position that an attack across the IB
will result in all out war - whereas POK is disputed territory. My sense is that Pak, for all its bluster, is in even worse shape than we are, in terms of equipment, stock levels of ammo etc and would be reluctant for any fighting to spill beyond the LOC.

Given that POK is disputed territory, I believe doing a `Kargil in reverse', as a previous poster advocated, is doable. Its a question of seizing a
relatively unimportant feature on the LOC, which we will have the ability to reinforce, if Pak wants to try and take it back. Yet, unimportant
enough for Pak to decide it can ignore it and slink away tail between legs, if it decides it does not want to risk serious casualties (and unimportant enough for the world to ignore). Doing this would force Pak to spread its forces thinner and consume greater resources guarding features it
never did earlier and send the message that we can hit them in new and unexpected ways.


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