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India Border Watch: Security and Operations

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Aditya_V
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya_V » 03 May 2017 19:36

Rsangram-> We all want our land back, but to suggest we just walk in capture territory bit by bit is not practical and certainly not the cost our soldiers have to pay. At the LOC level Pakis are not puny. My anger is there at the whole system. The question is how do we handle it. The problem with the baggage of the past, LOC has got some sanctity in the minds of people and so called international people who all want a stick to beat us with and we are not yet strong enough to stick it to all of them.

What if we capture a few posts, Pakis will try to counterattack, this will escalate. We will first have to wipe out thier bases, road infrastructure leading to those posts. If we have to give back those posts due to international shenanigans then it is an absolute waste of soldiers lives. we will need to use Aircraft, artillery and whatever we got, that means it becomes a hot war and Pakis will shout Nuke threat and thier International friends and Termintes within India will force us to backdown. Hell many in this forum thought or still think Operation Parakram was a big failure completely ignoring Pakistani casualties. The Media has termed it a total failure. Forgetting the Pakis downhill skied and agreed for a Ceasefire after 15 years only because of thier casualties. J&K also got a respite as the Pakis took a few years to lick thier wounds. 10 Years after Parakram they are in a mood to escalate again. We need to carefully play our cards and hand them enough causualties and get our land back.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Deans » 03 May 2017 20:37

I wrote a paper on Pakistan policy last June, identifying various non military and military measures we might take. This was summarised in this article. https://swarajyamag.com/world/a-new-non-diplomatic-approach-for-pakistan
The paper has been read by some of our policy makers.
One measure that is relevant to the LOC but not mentioned in the summary, is that we complete the Tulbul water project (which we stopped
as a goodwill gesture to Pak) and will allow us to flood the Neelam valley at will, in some parts of the year (while making the Jhelum navigable
on our side).

On the LOC there is no reason why we cannot have a battle of attrition (for e.g. in the form of cross border shelling) where Pakistan,
being the smaller player, will lose disproportionately, even if both sides suffer similar military casualties.
If we move 1 of our 2 artillery divisions into the valley and all our Pinaka and Smersh regiments, we would outnumber Pak 3:1 in artillery
and would have a huge deterrent in our ability to hit places like Murzaffarabad or Mangla/Mirpur with long range rocket artillery. If we restrict
action to the LOC only, the number of villages in POK within artillery range is more than the number which are vulnerable on the Indian side.
Besides, most of ours are Kashmiri muslim villages, so targetting them is bad optics for Pak and, to put it cynically, not such a bad thing for us. Villages in Jammu are vulnerable to firing across the IB and that is where we have to take a position that an attack across the IB
will result in all out war - whereas POK is disputed territory. My sense is that Pak, for all its bluster, is in even worse shape than we are, in terms of equipment, stock levels of ammo etc and would be reluctant for any fighting to spill beyond the LOC.

Given that POK is disputed territory, I believe doing a `Kargil in reverse', as a previous poster advocated, is doable. Its a question of seizing a
relatively unimportant feature on the LOC, which we will have the ability to reinforce, if Pak wants to try and take it back. Yet, unimportant
enough for Pak to decide it can ignore it and slink away tail between legs, if it decides it does not want to risk serious casualties (and unimportant enough for the world to ignore). Doing this would force Pak to spread its forces thinner and consume greater resources guarding features it
never did earlier and send the message that we can hit them in new and unexpected ways.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 03 May 2017 20:46

Philip wrote:It's very,very,sad watching the veterans of the armed forces puring out their hearts again and again,whenever a Paki atrocity takes place,as has been going on for decades now. All we get from our political class is the "befitting reply"! Frankly,that's all they can do "talk". We had hoped that the greatly trumpeted "surgical strike" would usher in a new threshold of action from India,but alas,we were yet again fooled."Demonitisation has destroyed terrorism" boasted our beloved PM,,but how many strike shave taken place since then,day after day-as we are seeing today?

......


Philip, Hizbul is now reduced to looting empty banks in Kashmir looking for money.

Now tell me if they were flush with cash why would they do that?

Rant is good but has to be constructive.

I don't expect this from you.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby rsangram » 03 May 2017 21:00

Aditya_V wrote:Rsangram-> We all want our land back, but to suggest we just walk in capture territory bit by bit is not practical and certainly not the cost our soldiers have to pay. At the LOC level Pakis are not puny. My anger is there at the whole system. The question is how do we handle it. The problem with the baggage of the past, LOC has got some sanctity in the minds of people and so called international people who all want a stick to beat us with and we are not yet strong enough to stick it to all of them.

What if we capture a few posts, Pakis will try to counterattack, this will escalate. We will first have to wipe out thier bases, road infrastructure leading to those posts. If we have to give back those posts due to international shenanigans then it is an absolute waste of soldiers lives. we will need to use Aircraft, artillery and whatever we got, that means it becomes a hot war and Pakis will shout Nuke threat and thier International friends and Termintes within India will force us to backdown. Hell many in this forum thought or still think Operation Parakram was a big failure completely ignoring Pakistani casualties. The Media has termed it a total failure. Forgetting the Pakis downhill skied and agreed for a Ceasefire after 15 years only because of thier casualties. J&K also got a respite as the Pakis took a few years to lick thier wounds. 10 Years after Parakram they are in a mood to escalate again. We need to carefully play our cards and hand them enough causualties and get our land back.


Aditya,

Read what you just wrote. "We are not yet strong enough to stick it to all of them". I think your ire is a little misdirected at people who EXPECT US TO BE STRONG ENOUGH BY NOW, to at least deal with Paki at all levels, if not with China or other powers. You are right, in that a) we are not strong enough, and 2) that given number 1, we cannot undertake a mission where we dont have much of a chance of success and will waste valuable lives, thereby treating our soldiers as fodder. But is it too much to expect that India be strong enough in 2017 or even in the past to be able to at least defend itself against Paki ? Think about it. Where is your outrage that we are not.

But where you are somewhat misplaced it is that you are not sympathetic to people to EXPECT US TO BE STRONG ENOUGH BY NOW. It is a very legitimate expectation and the fact that we are not, your ire should be directed at those, who are responsible for our weakness, not at someone suggesting that we should be strong enough by now. Also, where you are misplaced is that you think that just because some guys on this forum are demanding, even foolishly, if we accept your proposition for the sake of argument, that the Kleptocrats and thieves who run India will actually be compelled, propelled, prodded, goaded into action against Paki. You are giving too much credit to these Kleptos who rule India. These kleptos and thieves who rule India know that they have hollowed out the preparedness of Indian armed forces and will never embark in an adventure which they are sure to lose because then they risk their own positions. They will never risk their own positions otherwise, how will they continue their loot.

So our focus should not be, what we can immediately do, which I agree with you is not much.

Our focus should be, how we create a movement, in this forum and wherever we have influence, to single mindedly focus on creating ground conditions which will a) overthrow this system of kleptocracy that we have in place for the last 70 years - the rule of thieves which they thieves have convinced everyone that it is "Democracy" and b) how do we quickly start creating conditions for a medium and long term resurgence of our armed forces and restore them to their strength.

Focusing and dissing innocent citizens who may be ignorant but have the right instincts in terms of what we as Indians should do, is not the way to go.

For starters, WE CAN RECOGNIZE THAT WE ARE LIVING IN A KLEPTOCRACY - rule by thieves, which in the name of "democracy" is hollowing us out, militarily, economically, intellectually, emotionally, sociologically, societally, and in every other way, every minute of every day, of every week of every year of every decade or every century.

Then we can recognize like you do, that AT THE MOMENT OR IN THE FORSEEABLE FUTURE OR EVEN IN THE DISTANT FUTURE, IF WE CONTINUE WITH THIS RULE OF THIEVES, WE WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO TAKE ANY ACTION TO DEFEND OURSELVES, AND WE WILL CONTINUE TO LOSE OUR LIVES, OUR TERRITORY, OUR SELF RESPECT.....

Then we can recognize the fact, that TIME IS RUNNING OUT FOR US, AND THAT IF WE DONT OVERTHROW THIS SYSTEM OF KLPETOCRACY that we live under, pretty soon, in 50 to 100 years, India will become a MUSLIM MAJORITY country, and Muslim Majority invariably means, that within 10 to 20 years of any place becoming Muslim MAjority, the minority is either killed, converted or kicked out - so bye bye Hindu culture....

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby A Deshmukh » 03 May 2017 21:53

Deans wrote:I wrote a paper on Pakistan policy last June, identifying various non military and military measures we might take. This was summarised in this article. https://swarajyamag.com/world/a-new-non-diplomatic-approach-for-pakistan
The paper has been read by some of our policy makers.

Very well said.
Apart from usual military options, we need to squeeze TSP - economically and on water.

To add to your thoughts, in our J&K, we need to:
- squeeze KMs economically, essentially end the free bread, free security. particularly the leadership - Mohtarma, Abdullahs, and Hurriyat.
- revive Ikhwan to bypass SC interference to do the dirty jobs.
- end Art 370 (once BJP gets RS majority)
- start settling KPs and retired Armed personel (with licensed arms) in Kashmir valley.

People will start supporting Indian state when it starts looking like a winner in this conflict.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Gagan » 03 May 2017 21:55

^^^
And move the capital out of Srinagar, to Jammu once and for all

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya G » 03 May 2017 22:58

There is a lot of criticism in SM about seeming inaction by namo and doval and this govt in general.

So short is public memory. Who authorized surgical strikes for the first time at political level? It was this govt.

Who has given army a free hand? This govt

Who has placed order for new arty (thus getting rid of the editorial line India has not bought a single new gun since 30 years etc that was a bane in every single news article)

Who has rebuilt war wastage reserves?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby vasu raya » 03 May 2017 23:32

Reverse Kargil might lead to paki Rudaali not a fight...

but then, if pakis are willing to forget Shimla agreement from 1972, they should be made to forget 1960's IWT as well

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karthik S » 03 May 2017 23:36

Aditya G wrote:There is a lot of criticism in SM about seeming inaction by namo and doval and this govt in general.

So short is public memory. Who authorized surgical strikes for the first time at political level? It was this govt.

Who has given army a free hand? This govt

Who has placed order for new arty (thus getting rid of the editorial line India has not bought a single new gun since 30 years etc that was a bane in every single news article)

Who has rebuilt war wastage reserves?


There have been 52 deaths of security forces in many different attacks AFTER surgical strike. How long are you going to keep going back to that? People are not wrong in questioning the govt. Let's wait and see if govt does anything in coming few weeks. If not, and such attacks happen and our security forces die in every such attack, then this govt. is no diff from previous.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby jagga » 04 May 2017 00:05

Stop being a gentleman’s army, cut three heads for one: Captain Amarinder Singh
Peace is only possible if the government writ runs large, said Captain Amarinder, making it clear that he did not favour negotiations in J&K till the Indian Army had an upper hand.

Captain Amarinder said India’s response should be clear and unequivocal. “We should stop being a gentleman’s army. If they (Pakistan) cut one of our heads, we should cut three of theirs,” he said.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 04 May 2017 01:07

Upon reflection there are multiple press reports (more than one) of the Pak casualties after 17 April shelling by Indian artillery. There was one about a 120mm mortar direct hit on a Pak bunker.

So the troops in the vicinity should have expected an ambush and the patrol was looking for IEDs along the fence and instead was ambushed by the BAT.

The report quoting the two BSF survivors said it was a very short time period ambush.

My anger at Pravin Swamy report is the Pakis were killed in shelling. The Indian troops were ambushed and beheaded.
Its not equal as he portrays.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby brvarsh » 04 May 2017 01:20

Historically India creates fine wires for itself to walk on. We are now in a situation where we try to either appease all the parties including non-stake holders or try to prevent someone hijacking the issue in a direction we are not prepared for. Trifurcation of J&K should have been done long time ago - around the same time when Uttaranchal was formed. It would have relieved a lot of pressure that we find ourselves in today. Challenge now is how does the Government do the same and still not be seen as an act of punishment? If Valley is isolated from the rest of the state, would it increase the level of violence from where it already is? Pakistan does it and no one objects, we do it and we fear a backlash. Ironically we have created an environment for ourselves where people with anti national mindset could dictate their terms and their view of what a nation is and we surrender. Kashmir is not a hard problem to solve but our fear of unknown holds us back.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Deans » 04 May 2017 12:25

A Deshmukh wrote:
Deans wrote:I wrote a paper on Pakistan policy last June, identifying various non military and military measures we might take. This was summarised in this article. https://swarajyamag.com/world/a-new-non-diplomatic-approach-for-pakistan
The paper has been read by some of our policy makers.

Very well said.
Apart from usual military options, we need to squeeze TSP - economically and on water.

To add to your thoughts, in our J&K, we need to:
- squeeze KMs economically, essentially end the free bread, free security. particularly the leadership - Mohtarma, Abdullahs, and Hurriyat.
- revive Ikhwan to bypass SC interference to do the dirty jobs.
- end Art 370 (once BJP gets RS majority)
- start settling KPs and retired Armed personel (with licensed arms) in Kashmir valley.

People will start supporting Indian state when it starts looking like a winner in this conflict.


I had suggested a way of getting a majority in the J&K assembly to approve revocation of article 370. There are 25 seats in the J&K assembly
reserved for MLA's from POK and are kept vacant. There is nothing stopping GOI from inducting refugees and their descendants, who fled POK
in 1947 to be voters in these seats (all would be hindu's who may have settled all over India) . This can give the BJP 25 more seats, moving
much closer to a 2/3rd majority.

Gagan - The capital has to be in 1 place. The only reason it moves from Srinagar to Jammu and back, is that State politicans and babus make
a lot of money from allowances during the move (like free housing). Moving it to Jammu on grounds of safety would be a good move.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby vinod » 04 May 2017 13:25

When I was suggesting "kargil in reverse", this is what I was thinking...
Once the international politics are in relatively in our favour (for ex, China being tied down in NK and US relatively settled in SK with missile defence), and others etc, we can capture a bit of land from POK (preferably from where we can capture more later).
For international media, the announcement will be, "an anti-terror op was done in terror camps located few kms from ( a city in India). The gathering of evidence and cleansing operations are going on. No further engagements are expected. No international border has been crossed. The anti-terrorists cleansing operations are likely to continue for next few days."
Basically, we wait for Pak to escalate, while we strengthen that place.... and defend effectively!

What I'm curious to know is what not what Pakistan will do, but what international players will do.. Pakistan or its generals will not move an inch without some international nod.
How much of that can we diplomatically control? China of course will instigate Pak and probably move forces towards Arunachal and other aggressive patrols. IA must be prepared for this. Will Trump be on our side or will he play some nasty tricks... I don't know, may be diplomatic corps knows. Putin, EU, Middle east - what would be their position? Are they on our side?
I think Modi has been effective in isolating Pak on many fronts, but this is when we will actually see how much they walk their talk.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby shiv » 04 May 2017 18:09

vinod wrote:When I was suggesting "kargil in reverse", this is what I was thinking... China of course will instigate Pak and probably move forces towards Arunachal and other aggressive patrols. IA must be prepared for this


To be serious - China will have to do some serious force movement. That means shipping in a lot more men and material from Eastern China - which will become visible as activity in Lhasa station. and moving men and materiel from existing centers in Lhasa and Nyingchi which should become visible as trucks and materiel moving down the S 201, 202 204 G 219 etc . In general - the Chinese in Tibet will have to move 200 to 500 km in Tibet from their military commands to the borders. And to replenish that and resupply the material has to come from 2000 km away.

So "encouraging" Pakistan is one thing. Taking an aggressive stance means preparing for war and those preparations will be visible and they cannot happen in short notice. And China will have to be ready for the consequences.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby IndraD » 04 May 2017 18:21

Rahul Deans sir very well written , take a bow! https://swarajyamag.com/world/a-new-non ... r-pakistan
Problem is we sort of over estimate chankian potential of our govt, solutions suggested need a sharper, pro active PMO

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Gyan » 04 May 2017 18:43

We need Ikwans in JK and SF on Afghan-Pak border.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby jagga » 04 May 2017 20:46

Army soldiers returning back after ending search operations got attacked by terrorists. Couple of jawan's got injured.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... Hu3xH.html

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya G » 07 May 2017 00:12

Significant - thanks to long term and proactive engagement by centre with Bangladesh. 10 years back BD was such a pain.

Trivia: In 1995 we had mounted a cross border special operation in Sylhet to attack insugrents.

http://zeenews.india.com/india/banglade ... 02583.html

Shillong: Bangladesh is no longer a safe haven for Indian insurgents, Border Security Force (BSF) Director General K K Sharma said on Friday.

"They (Indian insurgents) are no longer active in Bangladesh. There were few training camps and hideouts of Indian insurgents and on our (BSF) information, the BGB (Border Guards of Bangladesh) has taken effective action and destroyed them,"
Sharma said on the sidelines of a function at the BSF (Meghalaya Frontier) headquarters here.

Moreover, he said if there was any definite knowledge of Indian insurgent camps on Bangladesh soil, action would be taken by the Bangladesh security forces to dismantle them.

India has a 1,880 km border with Bangladesh along four states - Tripura (856 km), Assam (263 km), Meghalaya (443 km) and Mizoram (318 km).

Expressing concern on the cattle smuggling along the India-Bangladesh border, Sharma said his troopers continued to make all efforts to thwart the crime.

"You must realize that the populations on both sides of the border have been indulging in this activity for a very long time. Wherever we become strict, cattle smuggling is stopped in that area. They immediately shift to another area. So inspite of our best efforts, this has not completely stopped," he said.

Sharma said the BSF was in the process of covering the gaps along the India-Bangladesh border with technological solutions.

"Very soon we will be installing an intruder detection alarm system to detect any intruder.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby nachiket » 07 May 2017 16:28

ramana wrote:Upon reflection there are multiple press reports (more than one) of the Pak casualties after 17 April shelling by Indian artillery. There was one about a 120mm mortar direct hit on a Pak bunker.

So the troops in the vicinity should have expected an ambush and the patrol was looking for IEDs along the fence and instead was ambushed by the BAT.

The report quoting the two BSF survivors said it was a very short time period ambush.

My anger at Pravin Swamy report is the Pakis were killed in shelling. The Indian troops were ambushed and beheaded.
Its not equal as he portrays.

The problem with the fire assaults that the IA has carried out is that the heaviest weapon used was still the 120mm mortar. While very destructive this limits our targets to their border posts which I'm sure are manned by jawans and few NCO's. None of their officers would be anywhere near it when IA retaliation is expected - like after an ambush by a BAT. And they are known to treat their soldiers as cannon fodder anyway. Compare this to their pet dogs like Hizbul and LeT attacking our army bases in Kashmir, sometimes ones which house the families of the soldiers. We have destroyed several border posts till now but that hasn't stopped attacks on our bases or BAT ambushes. Pretty sure the BATs would be composed of SSG or other troops which will not be in the firing line on their forward posts.

We need to change the game here. Map out all their rear areas like btn HQ's, supply depots, artillery deployments etc. which are safely outside the range of usual weapons like HMGs, mortars and AT missiles but if hit would cause significant casualties especially officers and equipment seriously damage their strength in the area. Use satellite images, drones, HUMINT if possible, anything available to get good location intel on these. Simultaneously induct more light and medium artillery regiments and WLRs into the area and swiftly deploy them to suitable locations from where their rear areas can be targeted.
And then open up with all of them suddenly while also targeting the forward posts with usual weapons. IA will need government approval for this since it can quickly escalate into all-out hostilities. But the govt. should give it. We are losing soldiers all the time anyway, while fighting them on our land. Let them escalate. At least then we won't have our hands tied because we do not have LeT and Hizbul like suicidal fanatics on our payroll. Escalation can only even the odds for us which are loaded in their favor right now.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Khalsa » 08 May 2017 01:54

jagga wrote:Stop being a gentleman’s army, cut three heads for one: Captain Amarinder Singh
Peace is only possible if the government writ runs large, said Captain Amarinder, making it clear that he did not favour negotiations in J&K till the Indian Army had an upper hand.

Captain Amarinder said India’s response should be clear and unequivocal. “We should stop being a gentleman’s army. If they (Pakistan) cut one of our heads, we should cut three of theirs,” he said.


Agreed.
Its time, the gloves come off.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya G » 08 May 2017 03:50

Khalsa wrote:....
Its time, the gloves come off.


Indeed :lol:

Image

Image

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Khalsa » 08 May 2017 04:42

Daemn !!!!

Beauty
More details Aditya.

Any idea where and when ?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby uddu » 08 May 2017 07:40

Video from another forum


@1:00 Is that a Paki flying to Jannat? :D

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby A Deshmukh » 08 May 2017 09:01

are these videos of new events?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Gyan » 08 May 2017 09:48

nachiket wrote:
ramana wrote:Upon reflection there are multiple press reports (more than one) of the Pak casualties after 17 April shelling by Indian artillery. There was one about a 120mm mortar direct hit on a Pak bunker.

So the troops in the vicinity should have expected an ambush and the patrol was looking for IEDs along the fence and instead was ambushed by the BAT.

The report quoting the two BSF survivors said it was a very short time period ambush.

My anger at Pravin Swamy report is the Pakis were killed in shelling. The Indian troops were ambushed and beheaded.
Its not equal as he portrays.

The problem with the fire assaults that the IA has carried out is that the heaviest weapon used was still the 120mm mortar. While very destructive this limits our targets to their border posts which I'm sure are manned by jawans and few NCO's. None of their officers would be anywhere near it when IA retaliation is expected - like after an ambush by a BAT. And they are known to treat their soldiers as cannon fodder anyway. Compare this to their pet dogs like Hizbul and LeT attacking our army bases in Kashmir, sometimes ones which house the families of the soldiers. We have destroyed several border posts till now but that hasn't stopped attacks on our bases or BAT ambushes. Pretty sure the BATs would be composed of SSG or other troops which will not be in the firing line on their forward posts.

We need to change the game here. Map out all their rear areas like btn HQ's, supply depots, artillery deployments etc. which are safely outside the range of usual weapons like HMGs, mortars and AT missiles but if hit would cause significant casualties especially officers and equipment seriously damage their strength in the area. Use satellite images, drones, HUMINT if possible, anything available to get good location intel on these. Simultaneously induct more light and medium artillery regiments and WLRs into the area and swiftly deploy them to suitable locations from where their rear areas can be targeted.
And then open up with all of them suddenly while also targeting the forward posts with usual weapons. IA will need government approval for this since it can quickly escalate into all-out hostilities. But the govt. should give it. We are losing soldiers all the time anyway, while fighting them on our land. Let them escalate. At least then we won't have our hands tied because we do not have LeT and Hizbul like suicidal fanatics on our payroll. Escalation can only even the odds for us which are loaded in their favor right now.

I agree. Guided Pinaka must have something to do.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karthik S » 08 May 2017 09:49

I can see two "bodies" flying at 1:00, one far away, and another right next to the explosion.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Marten » 08 May 2017 10:03

Deans wrote:I wrote a paper on Pakistan policy last June, identifying various non military and military measures we might take. This was summarised in this article. https://swarajyamag.com/world/a-new-non-diplomatic-approach-for-pakistan
The paper has been read by some of our policy makers.
One measure that is relevant to the LOC but not mentioned in the summary, is that we complete the Tulbul water project (which we stopped
as a goodwill gesture to Pak) and will allow us to flood the Neelam valley at will, in some parts of the year (while making the Jhelum navigable
on our side).

On the LOC there is no reason why we cannot have a battle of attrition (for e.g. in the form of cross border shelling) where Pakistan,
being the smaller player, will lose disproportionately, even if both sides suffer similar military casualties.
If we move 1 of our 2 artillery divisions into the valley and all our Pinaka and Smersh regiments, we would outnumber Pak 3:1 in artillery
and would have a huge deterrent in our ability to hit places like Murzaffarabad or Mangla/Mirpur with long range rocket artillery. If we restrict
action to the LOC only, the number of villages in POK within artillery range is more than the number which are vulnerable on the Indian side.
Besides, most of ours are Kashmiri muslim villages, so targetting them is bad optics for Pak and, to put it cynically, not such a bad thing for us. Villages in Jammu are vulnerable to firing across the IB and that is where we have to take a position that an attack across the IB
will result in all out war - whereas POK is disputed territory. My sense is that Pak, for all its bluster, is in even worse shape than we are, in terms of equipment, stock levels of ammo etc and would be reluctant for any fighting to spill beyond the LOC.

Given that POK is disputed territory, I believe doing a `Kargil in reverse', as a previous poster advocated, is doable. Its a question of seizing a
relatively unimportant feature on the LOC, which we will have the ability to reinforce, if Pak wants to try and take it back. Yet, unimportant
enough for Pak to decide it can ignore it and slink away tail between legs, if it decides it does not want to risk serious casualties (and unimportant enough for the world to ignore). Doing this would force Pak to spread its forces thinner and consume greater resources guarding features it
never did earlier and send the message that we can hit them in new and unexpected ways.

Hat tip, kudos to you Sir. Enjoyed the ideas and the systematic approach. Currently, the general approach and thought might be in place but there is a possibility that the PM is distracted with higher priority items on his list.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 08 May 2017 10:19

A Deshmukh wrote:are these videos of new events?

Major. Arya says less than 48 hours old.

https://twitter.com/majorgauravarya/sta ... 2423112704

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby LokeshC » 08 May 2017 10:26

uddu wrote:Video from another forum


@1:00 Is that a Paki flying to Jannat? :D


Looks like a tarp or some sort of a sheet. Too large to be a flying pig.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby PratikDas » 08 May 2017 10:27

uddu wrote:Video from another forum


The first section of the video from 0:02 to 0:19 seems to be of some kind of tracking missile and not just a RPG. It seems to correct its trajectory. Does anyone have ideas on what it might be?

BTW, this twitter thread has good info:
Image
Last edited by PratikDas on 08 May 2017 10:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Neela » 08 May 2017 10:40

First 40 secs. A window(?) of the bunker was p r e c i s e l y hit.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya_V » 08 May 2017 10:47

This is all ok, but hope we dont get satisfied with this, if within 6 months , with artillery or Pinaka, Drones used for guidance , if we can shahidise a few colonels/Generals or few hundred Uniformed pigs in Bunkers, the messgae will get accross, meanwhile we must work for DOmestic MIC production so we can deploy weapons in numbers so these guys will understand what itt means to misbehave.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby PratikDas » 08 May 2017 10:57

Neela wrote:First 40 secs. A window(?) of the bunker was p r e c i s e l y hit.

Only the first 20 seconds is of a propelled weapon. All subsequent explosions seem to be of ballistic projectiles.

Any idea what the first weapon is?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Neela » 08 May 2017 11:07

Aditya_V wrote:This is all ok, but hope we dont get satisfied with this, if within 6 months , with artillery or Pinaka, Drones used for guidance , if we can shahidise a few colonels/Generals or few hundred Uniformed pigs in Bunkers, the messgae will get accross, meanwhile we must work for DOmestic MIC production so we can deploy weapons in numbers so these guys will understand what itt means to misbehave.


India has to come out of its "appropriate" response noose. A disproportional response however needs to be done in stages so as to tie down Paki over reaction. Slow cooking of the frog.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Prithwiraj » 08 May 2017 11:10

PratikDas wrote:
Neela wrote:First 40 secs. A window(?) of the bunker was p r e c i s e l y hit.

Only the first 20 seconds is of a propelled weapon. All subsequent explosions seem to be of ballistic projectiles.

Any idea what the first weapon is?


Looks like anti-tank missile

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Manish_P » 08 May 2017 11:19

Good, as a reactive measure

I hope the promised 'free hand' also means our army can take on (or continue) the pro-active role. Perhaps do such regular and frequent long range sniping of the jihadi pigs with AMRs such that even posting to bunkers along the LOC comes close to mean a one-way trip.

That might make it come to such a pass that the minions at the bunkers would become so frustrated that they might decide to lop off their afsarans heads instead

Once us always taking the initiative becomes a matter of course, then a 'befitting' response to future uniformed jihadi activities might necessarily have to mean pasting with artillery

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Yagnasri » 08 May 2017 11:24

Deansji

Great ideas, systematic approach and well presented.

Is it Milan? old stock being put to good use?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby sudhan » 08 May 2017 11:27

The first hit must be a milan or konkurs missile.. The rest seem heavy shells. Probably our boys wheeled in some 130 mms?

The flying objects definitely seem like a pig.. most likely rejected from jannat and came crashing down..

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby chetak » 08 May 2017 11:31

Gagan wrote:^^^
And move the capital out of Srinagar, to Jammu once and for all


There have been very very large scale land purchases by valley and other sunni muslims in all the other regions of cashmere to defeat this very tactic.

the jehadis are fearful that if the state is divided, the sunnis will lose their relevance and their shrill high decibel cacophonic domination over state politics as well as the control over the anti India narrative.

If this is lost, the paki money will simply dry up.

We have to simply reduce the state subsidy level to that given to an average Indian state. That will a massive kick in their bellies and arses.
Last edited by chetak on 08 May 2017 11:51, edited 1 time in total.


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