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India Border Watch: Security and Operations

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manjgu
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby manjgu » 08 May 2017 12:10

the explosions look big..the first explosion is whitish..rest all are blackish.. is it bod(ies) flying? !!

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Philip » 08 May 2017 12:29

These measures should be SOP for Paki mischief. But more than just KO'ing a few bunkers on the LOC should be taking the fight into the heartland of the POK.The local HQs of the Paki army units and terror bases in towns like M'bad should receive saturation arty/MBRL fire.Paki towns and villages well known for harbouring terrorist scum and Paki army units must feel the heat,again and again. SMERCH/Pinaka ER need to be used repeatedly .It is onlya scorched earth policy that will make the Pakis blink and howl in pain. They should be in great fear as to where the next barrage will fall,and we hve a long border. If they rush reinforcements to the LOC/border,these too should be targets for destruction. They should be kept guessing whewther we intend to cross the LOC/border s was done previously with the surgical strikes or not. UCAVs and stand-off ASM munitions need to be used too.

Secondly,a long term plan for the recovery of POK ,even slivers at a time should be drawn up. AS we did at Siachen,we should iodentify the weaknesses in Paki defences and "seize the day".After all we only recovering Indian territory.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Gyan » 08 May 2017 12:48

The spread is too less ie to say that the shelling is too accurate to be Artillery or even Mortar. Now, some views are emerging that this is an old video, so one Cannot really say. The person in the background, is saying tank, tank repeatedly, so unless he is talking to his wife about water problem in Patiala, there is got to be a tank involved.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Kashi » 08 May 2017 12:57

Gyan wrote:Now, some views are emerging that this is an old video, so one Cannot really say.


Major Gaurav Arya‏@majorgauravarya
Replying to @Antevasin10 @shilpitewari
This video is less than 48 hours old. I don't know why people "think" it's an old video. It comes from army sources.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby SajeevJino » 08 May 2017 13:00

Manu Pubby‏Verified account @manupubby_ET 2h2 hours ago

Manu Pubby Retweeted Ravijot Singh

Army sources: this video was shot in April. Not linked to the mutilation incident. (that retaliation is pending)


April is not that much old :D :D


Gyan wrote:The spread is too less ie to say that the shelling is too accurate to be Artillery or even Mortar. Now, some views are emerging that this is an old video, so one Cannot really say. The person in the background, is saying tank, tank repeatedly, so unless he is talking to his wife about water problem in Patiala, there is got to be a tank involved.


What I think ..did we bring our Tanks very close to the Border, why we didn't saw any shells going straight after the Wire guided missile

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby SajeevJino » 08 May 2017 13:03

Kashi wrote:
Gyan wrote:Now, some views are emerging that this is an old video, so one Cannot really say.


Major Gaurav Arya‏@majorgauravarya
Replying to @Antevasin10 @shilpitewari
This video is less than 48 hours old. I don't know why people "think" it's an old video. It comes from army sources.


some replies in that thread

Maj Manjeet‏ @maj_manjeet 2h2 hours ago
Sir this is one year old video.... I don't want to name the unit. The unit got citation also.

Maj Manjeet‏ @maj_manjeet
I know the unit who did this and got citation..... no names no loc on social media. Your choice to blv me or not nevertheless grt shooting.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby PratikDas » 08 May 2017 13:06

Definitely not the video from December 2016. Let me see if something from about a year ago looks similar

Update: didn't find anything to suggest that the new video is from a previous incident

Last edited by PratikDas on 08 May 2017 13:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Singha » 08 May 2017 13:11

weak . not in one instance did these stone forts collapse in a heap. one has to use 155mm shells for that.

the pakis probably ran for cover at the first shot and are quite safe nearby in tunnels.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby sum » 08 May 2017 13:18

^^ Am sure many of our posts on the LoC are equal sitting ducks for Pakis to blow up by bringing in their US gifted big guns.

So not sure what these small tactical level things achieve unless they were posts actively aiding pig crossings and were at a vantage point hampering Indians ops and after blowing up of which, we will never allow them to rebuild it

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby SBajwa » 09 May 2017 01:11



ATGMs destroy 7 paki bunkers. Which ATGMs are these? NAAG?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 09 May 2017 02:10

Sum, That was the precise reason given that these posts help infiltration by providing covering fire.
sbajwa, I don't think its the NAG. Many twitter report said its KNOKUR wire guided ATGMS.

if you see the video the missile stray a little and goes back right into the bunker window or slot.

Your own post x-posted here!!!!


SBajwa wrote: NSFW (language)


More information here!! 7 Bunkers destroyed with laser guided Anti Tank missiles! ATGMs


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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Sid » 09 May 2017 05:11

These are small tactical responses to a strategic nightmare. All these actions will be reciprocated from the other side. Its an endless cycle.

Unless stakes are raised to some unacceptable level, this quid pro actions will keep on happening endlessly. Go physco for once, our response should be disproportionate, unpredictable and unacceptable. Prove that we are bigger bullies for once.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby manjgu » 09 May 2017 05:48

i know from someone that IA had used old/retired tanks as pillboxes/bunkers on LOC..did they repair these tanks and put them to good use !?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 09 May 2017 06:19

The sad thing is we don't know if those videos are current or not and no one can confirm them.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Khalsa » 09 May 2017 07:19

As the wise swami said

If they are current then you don't need to do anything. So why worry (They got fukked)
If they are not current , they will do something. So why worry (They will be fukked)

THose beheadings must not be forgotten.
We cannot and must not let the beheadings become the norm.

It must be always remain a serious NO NO .

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Guddu » 09 May 2017 07:31

The curious thing is why is there no paki response...looks like empty paki bunkers....or am I just misinformed.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby jamwal » 09 May 2017 07:38

I dont know if Indian Army has deployed tanks north of Akhnur in Rajauri, Punch and Uri where thissupposedly happened. These videos look a lot like the ones posted last year though!

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby rohitvats » 09 May 2017 09:42

Well, the said missile has to be Milan rather than Konkur. For a simple reason that Konkur is used on BMP-2 by Mech Inf while Milan is the standard ATGM with the infantry.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Khalsa » 09 May 2017 10:15

rohitvats wrote:Well, the said missile has to be Milan rather than Konkur. For a simple reason that Konkur is used on BMP-2 by Mech Inf while Milan is the standard ATGM with the infantry.

Logical ... aye agreed Saar.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Prem » 09 May 2017 10:20

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/tran ... 48896.html
Transformers: Retired tanks functioning as bunkers

A video purported to be one Pakistani army bunkers being destroyed by the Indian army along the line of control and which went viral this morning, may have spilled a secret. The Indian army is using retired Vijayanta and T-55 tanks as pillboxes along the Line of Control, their 105 mm main guns functioning as mobile artillery pieces.The 1.41 minute video opens with a shot of an anti-tank guided missile (either a Konkurs or a Milan) racing towards and exploding inside a bunker. It is followed up by a barrage of shots and explosions which some army officials say almost certainly appear to be high- explosive squash head (HESH) rounds fired from a battle tank's main guns judging by their characteristic black smoke. A voiceover in Punjabi, possibly that of the cameraperson, adds credence to this. He whispers "Tank lag gaya...gira diya...Tank aa gaya..." (the tanks have hit).
One former commander along the LoC explains how he drove a Vijayanta into a specially-made driving position for use against Pakistani bunkers before the 2003 ceasefire. "The Vijayanta wasn't a good offensive tank and had mechanical troubles, but was excellent in the defensive role and made for a great pillbox. Its 105 mm main gun could literally shred enemy bunkers."Armored corps veterans says the tanks given to the infantry units were largely static and had limited hull movement but full turret movement. The guns are manned by armored corps gunners. The .50 calibre coaxial guns were also used in cross-border firing.The Vijayanta was the licensed produced version of the British built Vickers Mark I main battle tank (MBT). Over 2000 Vijayantas saw service from 1965 before being retired in 2008 and a handful of serviceable tanks were redeployed along the LoC as pillboxes. The T-55 was a Soviet-built MBT nearly 700 of which were inducted from 1965 before being retired from active service in 2011.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby vasu raya » 09 May 2017 18:22

the accuracy of the ATGMs was really good, we often keep hearing that pakis have advantage when Indian posts are at a lower altitude than theirs, can IA not fire ATGMs in lofted mode while the target is being lased by a UAV?

with Tanx-Ex they already had put the Arjun Mk1 turret on a T-72, maybe they can just go further back in time and put them on top of these T-55 "pill boxes",

if it is the Arjun's Mk-2 turret, it can fire CLGMs with UAVs doing the lasing and remove the altitude advantage to the enemy atleast until the LCH arrives

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby vasu raya » 10 May 2017 01:49

Another step to counter infiltration would be to mount the foliage penetrating sensors on quadcopters, even hobby ones so they are at the reach of patrol teams,

Image
http://www.c4isrnet.com/articles/dod-has-more-intel-than-it-can-process

http://defense-update.com/20141110_foliage-penetrating-radar.html

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 10 May 2017 02:06

I think these response are good but would like an all up response opening up with all the guns for a week making life miserable upto 30 kms.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya_V » 10 May 2017 08:23

What we need is retaliation over a period of 6 months. Hope with the help of UAV's with artllery combo we can target some Paki troop carrying trucks causing lots of causualties

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby manjgu » 10 May 2017 11:22

ATGM's being fired at targets lased with UAV !!!! wah wah... i didnt know ATGM's in IA inventory had laser seekers as well !!! ATGM's are not laser guided ( atleast the ones in IA inventory)..

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby JTull » 10 May 2017 19:04

manjgu wrote:ATGM's being fired at targets lased with UAV !!!! wah wah... i didnt know ATGM's in IA inventory had laser seekers as well !!! ATGM's are not laser guided ( atleast the ones in IA inventory)..


+1

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby abhishekm » 10 May 2017 22:28

manjgu wrote:i know from someone that IA had used old/retired tanks as pillboxes/bunkers on LOC..did they repair these tanks and put them to good use !?

Old Soviet army strategy when they deployed the turrets of old and to be decommissioned tanks as pillboxes and strong points along their border with China. Saved lots of manpower and resources that way and kept the Chinese on their toes as well.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby VKumar » 11 May 2017 02:52

Seems to me a good use of old tanks.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karan M » 11 May 2017 05:22

manjgu wrote:ATGM's being fired at targets lased with UAV !!!! wah wah... i didnt know ATGM's in IA inventory had laser seekers as well !!! ATGM's are not laser guided ( atleast the ones in IA inventory)..


IIRC India bought Kornets post Kargil. SIPRI claims 3000 missiles were delivered between 2003-08, with 250 launchers.

https://indianarmy.nic.in/MakeInIndia/r ... 202016.pdf

Notes the IA is looking for TI sights for Kornet capability on BMPs. Could equally be a future looking need.

CASS also states.
http://www.cassindia.com/inner_page.php?id=125&&task=military

Even as reports were circulated that India is lagging behind anti-tank attack capability several different types of anti-tank missiles were acquired, mainly from Russia, which showed an incremental improvement in penetrative power, weight of warhead and range of missile. Thus the Kornet was acquired in 2003-2006. It is a laser beam riding missile with a range of 5.5 km.


Gurmeet Kanwal also notes 250 launchers were procured.
http://www.india-seminar.com/2009/599/5 ... kanwal.htm

While 250 Kornet-E anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs) with thermal imaging sights have substantially increased the anti-tank capability of infantry battalions, most efforts to modernise the equipment held by infantry and Rashtriya Rifles (RR) units are aimed at enhancing their capability for surveillance and target acquisition at night and boosting their firepower for precise retaliation against infiltrating columns and terrorists holed up in built-up areas. 200 hand-held BFSRs with practical ranges up to seven to eight km where clear line of sight is available, 2,000 hand-held thermal imaging devices (HHTIs) with ranges up to 2,000 metres for observation at night and stand-alone infrared, seismic and acoustic sensors with varying capabilities have enabled infantrymen to dominate the Line of Control so completely that infiltration has come down to almost a trickle.


Another reference here:
http://www.idsa.in/system/files/WP210.pdf

BTW MOD Report of 2004 states. Kornet under procurement.

In short, Kornet may be in IA service.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby manjgu » 11 May 2017 07:50

i stand corrected..but i doubt India will ever use laser riding kornets against bunkers... cost is indeed a factor. we were so chary of using LGB's during kargil where the need was much greater.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby rohitvats » 11 May 2017 08:00

At one point in time, IA had dedicated ATGM battalions under Brigade of Guards. But most, all may be, have converted to Recce & Support (R&S) role. Some are tracked (with BMP-2) and others are wheeled (Jeep mounted ATGM).

There is a Rocky and Mayur show with 17 Guards which is a R&S battalion with BMP-2. Look up tank busters on YouTube. This battalion had sent ATGM detachments to different sectors during Kargil. But now is R&S battalion.

Likely we bought KORNET post Kargil for it's heavy warhead in limited numbers for ATGM battalions.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby yensoy » 11 May 2017 08:48

manjgu wrote:i stand corrected..but i doubt India will ever use laser riding kornets against bunkers... cost is indeed a factor. we were so chary of using LGB's during kargil where the need was much greater.


Maybe this is how we safely and in an environmentally friendly way :rotfl: dispose off our old stock of ammunition?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby vasu raya » 11 May 2017 20:40

Interesting to see if there is an overlap between Laser seeking (or any seeker) ATGMs and Lock on after launch capabilities? to allow for sensor and shooter separation

CLGM, wonder what happened to it?


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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karan M » 13 May 2017 03:04

manjgu wrote:i stand corrected..but i doubt India will ever use laser riding kornets against bunkers... cost is indeed a factor. we were so chary of using LGB's during kargil where the need was much greater.


Manjgu, the Kornet was acquired given Kargil conditions. A) Tandem warhead vs Pak T-80s. B ) Laser riding allows for operations over water or mountains, in both cases, the missile as it goes further, the wire drops and can snag.

So, the Kornets we have are likely a mix of tandem warhead (anti-armour units) and blast warheads (for the bunker busting stuff).

The LGB issue during Kargil is not really apples to apples IMHO, because we were really underequipped in that era. 200-300 LGBs were a silver bullet. The next time around, Mirage 2000's did use LGBs on TSP troops in the clash when they again intruded into our territory. Plus, the IA has some 3000 Kornets per the above report, and as a member surmised, some may be actually expiring & hence using a few dozen a year won't bankrupt the IA as long as a functioning Govt authorizes regular restocking & replenishment.

Right now, we are still not rolling in PGM, but I do believe we can use Milans & Konkurs extensively. IA projections of holdings apart, we have tens of thousands of ATGMs (most of which are manufactured significantly locally) and the Konkurs/Milans (earlier units) should particularly be explored to see if they can be repurposed for use from masts, and a RF version developed (even better than laser guidance) for such use in mountainous/jungle terrain etc.

BDL interestingly has demonstrated something like this. GOI/MOD should have the IA look at these "local" solutions for bulk procurement against TSP for instance, while acquiring Javelins/Spike/Nag etc for all out war.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 658987.cms

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karthik S » 13 May 2017 10:24

Father, daughter killed due to paki cross border firing.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby rsangram » 14 May 2017 21:08

Dont we keep a list of targets within Pak for retaliation, ready, like the Isrealis do ? The Israelis retaliate right away. There is no time lag. The Americans too, retaliate right away.

Why do we wait for an incident, and then go to the drawing board, to plan retaliation, if there is a retaliation at all, that is ? Dont we know that if there is not a terrorist incident today, all we have to do is wait another day, and there will surely be one.

I dont understand this, "time and place of our own choosing", any more than I understand "the blood of our jawans will not go in vain" nonsense. Can someone please explain.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya G » 15 May 2017 00:43

rsangram wrote:Dont we keep a list of targets within Pak for retaliation, ready, like the Isrealis do ? The Israelis retaliate right away. There is no time lag. The Americans too, retaliate right away.

Why do we wait for an incident, and then go to the drawing board, to plan retaliation, if there is a retaliation at all, that is ? Dont we know that if there is not a terrorist incident today, all we have to do is wait another day, and there will surely be one.

I dont understand this, "time and place of our own choosing", any more than I understand "the blood of our jawans will not go in vain" nonsense. Can someone please explain.


You are mixing will to retaliate with a plan to execute it.

Forces have plans at multiple levels. IAF maintains a list of 5,000 targets in Pakistan when last reported.

Will to execute a plan is another matter. The whole system is functions to let India keep taking blows rather than deliver them.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby RoyG » 15 May 2017 00:53

no long term strategy connected to recognized civilizational identity will do this:

The whole system is functions to let India keep taking blows rather than deliver them.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby rsangram » 15 May 2017 05:41

RoyG wrote:no long term strategy connected to recognized civilizational identity will do this:



You mean "should do it", not "will" do it, right ?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Kashi » 19 May 2017 18:02

Arun Jaitley‏ @arunjaitley
The aggressive domination & readiness of troops for befitting response to any misadventure by enemy is very satisfying.


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