India Border Watch: Security and Operations

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Avarachan
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Avarachan »

Rudradev, after 26/11, it was A.K. Antony who demanded the development and induction of Agony Punch [sic], over the objections of MMS. A.K. Antony is not a fool.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by manjgu »

well ... i kind of feel silly when a country which is 7 times size of pakistan whines in the way we are doing !! and not able to tame these fellas !!

we have not learned lessons of the past 1000 years... we dont recognise our friends and enemies. and neither know how to tackle enemies or make and keep friends :roll:
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Prem Kumar »

Akshay Kapoor wrote:^^

I agree Ajai Shukla is a disgrace to the OG. I had a chance to speak to one of the recent very well regarded GOCnCs Northern Command (can't take names sorry) and he made a couple of points. I am giving a sanitized version here. Things are worse than this.

1. There is deep concern in the armed forces especially army about morale of troops and officers when they feel their own government does'nt support them and has no coherent policy. In the age of media everybody sees what is happening and soldiers are not fools. This is very corrosive.

2. There is pressure from the government to be 'nice' to the Pakis and militants and some careers have ended when officers have stood by their guns.

3. Arty is a serious concern and even if there was the political will to inflict damage and respond 'for effect' small arms cannot inflict the damage. Our mortars are no good. We need arty!

4. The strategic situation is unfolding much like what most of us feared and our govt and our public discourse has no conception of it.

5. I asked him why people like him don't speak up. He said we do but perhaps we are too nuanced and not emotive and direct. He said the problem with being direct is that you will have to criticize the government, bureaucracy and polity because its crystal clear what the problem is. But Indians do not understand national security at any level and that would lead to aspersions being cast on the motives of the armed forces and emasculate them even more. This might make a bad situation worse and cost lives. So its very tricky.

6. So whats the solution I asked him. Will we need to have a major catastrophe and pay a huge price in blood before we wake up from our stupor? I will not print his answer.
Very sad. But the question is: will senior Army officers complain in private or stick their neck out, risk it all and say it like it is?

Think Snowden. Do we have more of Gen. VKS amongst these gentlemen? Its unfortunate that, in addition to their already perilous jobs, such a demand is made of them. But without a few senior army officers telling it like it is, nothing will change. Of course, the Congress government & media will vilify them and find other nooses to hang them with. That would be the price.

In the NDTV interview, Gen V.P. Malik made one good point about the irrelevance of whether it was soldiers or jihadis - his point was that Pakistan was equally culpable in both cases. But when he was asked whether the peace process should continue, you could see the wishy-washiness. He said something like "we should ask ourselves that question?". Meh.

I got the impression that he was with some strategic stink-tank. He called himself as part of a "strategic community". Very disappointing response, coming from a former COAS. I expected more cojones.

The Congress government, from the PMO down has set the carrot & stick policy very clear. If you play along with the aman-ki-asha, we-must-talk-at-all-times, its not worth shedding blood over Siachen, J&K is disputed, people-to-people contact will solve all our problems, terrorism is a mutual problem talking points, you can earn your daal-roti. You will be given access to decision makers, paid trips to Track-2 resorts, you will be given media access, you can perhaps even see intelligence briefings, your stink-tank will earn business etc etc etc. If you take a contrarian approach, you are on your own and if you become too intrusive, the knives will come out.

Very few have the courage to resist all this and take a hardline, pro-India stance. People like Ajain Shukla are all compromised. Only the degree of sell-out varies
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Rudradev »

Avarachan, if he is not a fool, then the alternative explanation for his recent actions is even more appalling to consider.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by manjgu »

@rudradev..well said. it looks every one of the netas has been sold out...
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Aditya G »

Maybe Antony was right ... 26/11 was an example of jehadi op by extremely hardened and trained men. We have been hearing similar stories from incidents in Hafruda and like ... is this also on same lines?

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/loc- ... 98425.html
A specially trained Lashkar-e-Tayyaba (LeT) unit was behind the ambush on the Indian Army's patrol team near the Line of Control (LoC) in Poonch sector of Jammu and Kashmir on Tuesday, military sources told Headlines Today.

Army sources said that the LeT unit that had carried out the January 8 ambush on a patrol party, beheading the Indian soldier in the Mendhar sector, was also involved in the five personnel's brutal killing in Poonch. :roll:

The Army investigation, done in conjunction with intelligence agencies, has revealed that the LeT group has been specially trained by the Pakistan Army's special unit and is called the Jihadi Commando Unit. It is said to be headed by a terrorist named Tariq Mohammad Anwar.

According to sources, Anwar has spent time in the Kashmir valley in the past and has been involved in plotting terror strikes in India.

Anwar, who is strongly believed to have led the beheading operation in Mendhar, is suspected to have been the mastermind behind the latest daring ambush that took place about half-a-kilometre inside the Indian territory.

Read more at: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/loc- ... 98425.html
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Prem Kumar »

The media needs to stop these unnecessary glorifications of "mujahideen battalion", "jihadi commando unit", how they are ruthless/brutal blah blah. All it shows is their (media's) dhimmitude, which they want to project on the Indian Army. Earlier, there was media dhoti shiver on how the "dreaded" Taliban will be operating soon in J&K after the Afghan pullout.

To the Indian Army, a terrorist is a terrorist (whether uniformed or uninformed) and the bearded mofo will meet the same fate as countless mofos before him.

Ridradev: a not so appalling theory about AKA's statement is that he was just dancing to the PMO tune to "play down" this incident, even though he may not have believed in his statement himself. This explanation is somewhere in-between him being a fool & him being a sellout, tending towards the latter. If true, it just shows his lack of testicular fortitude, just like his blue turban master.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Vipul »

Mr Do Nothing Antony is not right. He is just playing his masters tune to escape the responsibility of taking decisions/retaliatory action.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/loc-k ... y/1152290/
Mr Antony is not only guilty of misleading the House with his statement, but he has further compounded his guilt by getting the Army's statement, which was issued before his statement, changed, he claimed.

Sinha said that the Army had clearly stated that Pakistani soldiers were involved and now they have been made to retract.

The Army is on the ground, the Army knows better than the Prime Minister and the Defence Minister. And the Army has been forced to change its statement, its a very serious issue.

The Defence Minister and the government are speaking in a language which is more acceptable to Pakistan than to us.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by ramana »

AKA is speaking for MMS as the later only mumbles.
And they all are speaking for their Mistress's voice even though she speaks fire and brimstone in the Lok Sabha.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by ramana »

X-post....
X-post....
SSridhar wrote:
CRamS wrote: -------------------------
quote="SSridhar"

We can shout at Antony or Kurshid or MSA for their words and actions or inactions. Ultimately, it is Ms. Antinio Maino and the US who are the puppeteers. I do not believe that the situation would change with a change of governments either. It will then be somebody else and the US. We used to mock at Pakistan for being a faithful servant to the Master. It has devolved on us too. We defer to US wishes. A time may come when we will also end up as a GUBO partner. That would be the next stage in this evolutionary relationship.

---------------------------------

SS, I am not fully convinced that this latest TSP attack was just some random act to highlight the "core issue". While thats always the center piece of TSP strategy, I think the latest has got to do with some form of revenge or some form of pre-emption on TSP's part, warning India (Indian army that is), don't dare taking any action across the LoC.
CRS, I didn't say that either. It is all related to Afghanistan. Today, PigLeT is integrated with the PA. We do not need to distinguish between the two. The latest incident has also to be seen in the context of the Jalalabad attack, again by PigLeT, Haqqani and the PA.

There are multiple levels of lapses in these repeat killings on the Indian side of LOC :Indian Army, MoD, MEA, PM, press hangers on of the ruling party (eg. Jyoti Malhotra) and loose mouth idiots who are given more hawa then they deserve eg. Mani Shankar Aiyar etc..

Need to understand some of these could also be batting for the US which wants to have a piss ful exit without a flag tearing exit from Kabul.

- Just as at Kargil, the IA local area commanders need to ensure they have active patrols in strength. They don't need orders for this from Headquarters. How do they expect Area domination patrols of six soldiers to dominate? Wasn't Lt Saurabh Kalia and his troop of six ambushed and tortured to death and same palusible deniablity from TSP at work? So IA needs to be learning organization and not repeat the same mistake like a dinosaur and get its honored troops murdered. Its not a killing but a murder. After the beheadings to send same six troop strength is idiocy if not moronic.

- Its very clear that TSP has non-state actors as part of their troop formations. So its stupid to point that out. Its a given. In fact the non state actors have a battalion number which shows they are part of the TSP Army order of Battle. Just because they dont have spit and polish parade ground uniforms doesnt make them irregualrs. So stop characteriizing them as non-soldiers. they might not have graduated from Kakul PMA but are soldiers trained in a some camp or the other by the TSP Army. This is the standard modus operandi since 1947 and yet IAndina Army doesnt want to recognize the problem and keeps giving press releases and leaks to dubious journalists who turn around and support TSP. Eg. Pravin Swami.

- Indian Army should stop building up the image of cowardly border raiding razakars by calling them BAT and other honorifics.
They are just plain terrorists in or out of uniform.

- Big picture issues. By giving unattributable briefings to idiot desi journalists all this appears to be local and confined and masks the real intent of the TSP. It might feel good to tell them about what India did or not do but it will make it look like a riot with guns. So dont tell them but do what isnecessary. The country is behind the forces even if termagant politicans and their ilk are not

-The big picture is TSP wants Indian Army to commit more troops at the border to prevent such pin-prick raids. Its not like India has a massive resources of trained soldiers for this and will have to dip into other fronts and or raise more troops eventually. In the short term they have to come from acclimatised troops facing the PRC in the Northern-Eastern borders at the LAC and relieve the pressure. What we are seeing is the defacto or virtual two front war with coordination between the snake and the dragon. Recall the numerous logisitics generals exchanging visits to PRC and TSP?

- If this is correct the right strategy is to keep the troops at the PRC borders and increase the patrol strength from six to what ever the local commander feels is necessary within his resources.

- MEA and their bag holders in media should shut up. They have no bone in this fight. Afghanistan etc are secondary red herrings.

- Also TSP always conducts terrorist attacks on India whenever they are in good books of US. So here the MEA can help by alerting the MoD whenevr they feel the US is more amenable to the TSP which is a definite indicator of past TSP behavior.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Akshay Kapoor »

^^

I agree , they need to be far more direct and stick their neck out but they are genuinely worried about the consequences to the army - remember the scathing attacks in part of the media during the pay commission and VKS issues. I don't think there is any sell out...in fact I am sure there isnt. But there is an incapability to come to terms with and deal with the realities outside their professional domain. For example just earlier this evening I was speaking to an ex GoC 21 Corps (strike corps) and he said very similar things. He had also served at AHQ and he said that sometimes it feels the government is not our government but our adversary's. He said lets say the Brigade Commander authorizes a raid. In this day and age people can be court martialed for this and the media will smash the reputation of the army and the govt will wreck whatever is left of our professionalism, discipline and ethos. This is the reality they have to deal with. They can be tried for war crimes and called rogue even if they are doing what would seem sensible in any sane country.

In the same gathering someone else told me that after the last incident the CO 13 RajRif almost revolted with the rest of his troops and insisted he allowed to go in and he was not allowed. A serving CO (third generation) of a unit in the valley told me that his father who had commanded a unit in the same area was shocked at how bad the situation was and said that even in 62 we were not scared of being hauled up for defending ourselves and exercising normal operational latitude.

Remember Lt Gen Kapil Vij in Op Parakram. His actions were normal and consistent with the protection of his command in the context of the orders he had been given by the AHQ. And what happened ..he was sacked overnight on the insistence of Brajesh Mishra for doing his job. It was a BJP govt then. Then a Corps Commander could be sacked for doing his job, now a Company Commander can.

These guys can take on physical danger (even the worst of them) and pay the price on the battlefield but they cannot take the ignominy of being branded anti national and take on the mental pain and harassment that will be heaped upon them if they 'dare to question civil authority'.

The Indian Armed Forces will not disregard their political orders. Its just not going to happen.

Having said that we need someone to fall on his sword. We need a Manekshaw, Hanut Singh or SK Sinha but then given the state of our polity I wonder if even they could make a difference. I never thought I would say this but I wish Indira Gandhi was here !
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by ramana »

No one should fall on their sword. Its not right o lose such experience and bravery to expose charlatans.

I agree what Brajesh Mishra did wrt to Lt Gen Vij was cowardly exercise of power against helpless personnel.


We need to find a way.

Please convey our understanding.

May be send regualar Area Dominance Team as bait and lure them into a company strength back-up force.

Two-three ambushes will fix their jihadiness.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by ramana »

Its turning political that AKA made the Army change their statement. Most likely some junior MoD babu beyond his brief made the changes to conform to the Minister's statement in Lok Sabha. And AKA's statment is based on advise of such minions.
The statement demeans the Indian Army soldiers and insults the intelligence of the MPs and the people.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Avarachan »

Ramana, I stand by my earlier statement. Pakistan is simply a cat's paw. India should make a fitting response to this outrage. However, the strategic systems need time and money to mature. The big picture must be kept in mind.

By the way, India can also play this game ... The recent credit line to Vietnam is a good example of this. I agree with you that the Indian Army should change its tactics on the border. Maintaining the same vulnerability is not wise.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by raj-ji »

Avarachan wrote:
ramana wrote:
Any way [A.K. Antony] will go down next to Krishna Menon as one of the worst Defence Ministers.
Ramana, one cannot deal decisively with the cat's paw unless one is prepared to deal with the cat. I think A.K. Antony is doing a decent job, given the realities he is forced to deal with. Under him, India has made significant steps forward in strategic autonomy. Just think of the progress made in a variety of projects. There are many people who hate him for that.

Regarding this latest attack, this "peace process" is a sham, but I would not recommend an overt war at this time. (In my opinion, India should respond through covert means.) Keep in mind that globally, there are multiple factions, multiple individuals, multiple agendas, and multiple motivations. India should respond in a calculated fashion.
^ +1

AKA has done a decent job so far, many procurement projects have proceeded because of him. But IMO, AKA should not have thrown the line about people in uniforms. It was a silly move and insensitive comment. Furthermore it gives ammunition to get rid of one of few politicians with a clean and honest image. With someone else in that post, who knows what other delays and schemes will take place.

The Pukis are clearly baiting us. The US and NATO wants us to step up in Afghanistan. The Pukis want us to look at our border so we ignore their other border. We can't take their bait. But we have to retaliate. IMO, best option is covert and high impact.

A war with the Pukis will make everyone nervous. A war on terrorists will be much more palatable. These are just semantics, cause we know the line is very blurred especially with the Pukis.

This blurred line can be used by us to get some overdue payback without as much blowback.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Vipul »

raj-ji wrote:
^ +1

AKA has done a decent job so far, many procurement projects have proceeded because of him. But IMO, AKA should not have thrown the line about people in uniforms. It was a silly move and insensitive comment. Furthermore it gives ammunition to get rid of one of few politicians with a clean and honest image. With someone else in that post, who knows what other delays and schemes will take place.

The Pukis are clearly baiting us. The US and NATO wants us to step up in Afghanistan. The Pukis want us to look at our border so we ignore their other border. We can't take their bait. But we have to retaliate. IMO, best option is covert and high impact.

A war with the Pukis will make everyone nervous. A war on terrorists will be much more palatable. These are just semantics, cause we know the line is very blurred especially with the Pukis.

This blurred line can be used by us to get some overdue payback without as much blowback.
AKA cannot take credit for any procurement so far (which one are you alluding to?).
On the contrary he has a fetish to stall the deals at the slightest hint of corruption as he does not wish to let go a single opportunity to protect his non corrupt image. A Majority of the deals so far has been through the FMS route for which he does not deserve any credit.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by SSridhar »

While everybody is tearing into AKA, Army's Leadership in Jammu-Uri Stretch Under Lens - ToI

Pak Army Actively Connived in Ambush: Officials - ToI
All this, however, does not detract from the fact that the six-member Indian patrol — one soldier escaped unhurt — was caught unawares. "The soldiers were lax, did not take enough precautions. The court of inquiry into the incident will establish the exact sequence of events," said another officer.

Such incidents usually take place during the changeover of battalions posted in the area concerned, when the unit being posted out has become slightly complacent and the one replacing it is yet to become familiar with the area.

Tuesday's attack in Poonch took place when the 14 Maratha Light Infantry was being inducted to replace the 21 Bihar Regiment that had completed its tenure in the forward area. While four of the soldiers killed were from the latter, the fifth was from the former.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by SSridhar »

There is also the hand of Salman Kurshid and Man Mohan Singh in the dilution of the statements that were made. The trouble is that Antony, who does not give the impression of being a decisive person who can stand his ground, may be amenable to easy manipulation and over-ruling by the others, especially a suave and manipulative Salman Kurshid. Since AKA is an honest and straight-forward person, of which there is not much doubt, he should now resign from the post (and even the party) and cite this interference and the loaded agenda of Sonia, MMS & Co

This is especially true now as the PMO & the MEA wash their hands off.
With the issue snowballing into a full-scale political embarrassment, PMO distanced itself from the alleged censoring of facts, dubbing as "mischievous" reports that Antony's statement was changed at its behest. "Such allegations are mischievous and have no basis," a PMO spokesman said. MEA also washed its hands off the matter, saying that it was not involved in vetting or "diluting" the statement of the defence ministry

But even as PMO sources denied that the statement was tweaked, they said that it was vetted by senior ministers and officials including foreign minister Salman Khurshid and national security advisor Shiv Shankar Menon besides Antony. The statement was also seen by foreign secretary Sujatha Singh, the DGMO and some defence ministry officers.
This is as big a foot-in-the-mouth episode as the Sharm-el-Sheikh admission. The cabal is not giving up its efforts to blunt Indian position vis-a-vis Pakistan. In fact, it is vigorously pursuing its sinister objective at every opportunity.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Victor »

What stops the army from forming a lashkar battalion of its own (non state actors/irregulars) to behead/castrate jihadis in and out of uniform inside PoK and even pakistan? We can advise the paki govt not to react to unfortunate incidents as these terrorists are "trying to vitiate the atmosphere" and prevent peace talks.
Last edited by Victor on 08 Aug 2013 06:56, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by vishvak »

As a democracy, we have abnormal situation of civil officialdom dictating strategic defense. Pentagon is not like this, it is staffed by military officials. On the other hand, every statement has to go through a chain of people. Why should anyone vet details- people have right to know.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Avarachan »

In geopolitics, two great questions to ask are: "Who benefits?" and "Why now?" In all probability, MMS only has several months left as PM. It is widely known that he wants to secure a "peace agreement" with Pakistan as part of his legacy. There are many factions throughout the world which want to take advantage of this. However, for MMS to execute this "grand bargain," there needs to be a crisis. Otherwise, he would never be able to get away with his desired plan (which would be a gross betrayal of Indian interests). This latest attack needs to be viewed in light of this. The "peace process" is not in India's interests. However, a massive, destabilizing crisis--through which a settlement could be forced on India while MMS is PM--is not in India's interest, either. In my opinion, at the present time, a covert response is best. The strategic systems should also be further developed.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Rudradev »

Victor wrote:What stops the army from forming a lashkar battalion of its own (non state actors/irregulars) to behead/castrate jihadis in and out of uniform inside PoK and even pakistan? We can advise the paki govt not to react to unfortunate incidents as these terrorists are "trying to vitiate the atmosphere" and prevent peace talks.
What's preventing them is what the UPA government did to Col. Purohit. And he was operating WITHIN India!

Pakistan lies between 10 Janpath and 7 Race Course Road.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by member_23455 »

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/don-t ... ack-402973
:roll:

So the statement has been "corrected". Now what?

Interesting that it seems that the Army text seems to have been transcribed so faithfully this time that the fauji usage of LC to denote Line of Control instead of the civilian LOC has also not been altered!
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by rohitvats »

The slime-balls at NDTV and CNN-IBN were trying desperately to do damage control yesterday after the Antonygate yesterday - So, while NDTV was running clips of people living close to LC talking about how the border strife makes their life miserable and therefore, we need 'peace' and bhaichara, CNN-IBN was harping on divide in parliament between GOI and opposition giving Pakistan an opportunity.

In the case of NDTV report - well, the buggers did not plan for the villager from minority community asking for IA to smash the b@stards across the border for once and for all...the reporter quickly went into damage control and started talking about firing on LC affects normal life. At CNN-IBN, Yashwant Sinha tore into Rajdeep and his line of opposition not giving a united stand and all that.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Prem Kumar »

And we have the Firstpost headline today talking about the "decline in parliamentary debate", like that's the most important topic right now. The fact that Antony screwed up & has issued a new statement is buried so deep in the FP home page that, unless you look for it, you wont find it. Its become a predictable tactic of the anti-nationals. Talk about the side story, back story, rear-view story - everything except the main story.

Each 3rd rate, so-called journalist is trying to outdo the other in trying to see the "big picture"
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Rudradev »

To his credit, Anthony is backing away from the ridiculous statement about "terrorists in Pakistan army uniform", and is emphatically naming the Pakistan Army as the culprit now.

However, Salman Khurshid on TV last night was still preaching innovative defenses of the Paki position. One of the gems he dispensed:
If a bird picks up a stone on the Pakistan side of the border and drops it on the Indian side, can we hold Pakistan responsible??
MMS of course remains silent, and the meeting with Nawaz remains on his social calendar as far as anyone knows.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Prem Kumar »

D0ouche bag Rajdeep Sardesai tweeted yesterday:
Just asking: would Republicans and Democrats ever play partisan politics and personalise natl security debate?
People pointed out to him the example of Benghazi, while also pointing out that the POTUS wouldnt sellout his nation, unlike our PM.

Sardesai seems to have been "inspired" by the Manish Tiwari talking-point: whenever the opposition raises any uncomfortable issue, its painted as "politicizing" the issue, as if there is any other approach in a democracy!

If the BJP, right-wingers in social media and anguished widows had not raised hell yesterday, AKA would have gotten away with a clean chit to Pakistan.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Prem Kumar »

Cross-posting from the TSP thread: if the PMO/MEA/NSA did indeed "edit" AKA"s statement yesterday based on discussions with the Paki High Commissioner, isnt that grounds for a treason trial of these gentlemen?

Definition of Treason in Wikipedia. I couldnt find the Indian law language. I think Anthony-gate might qualify (lying to one's own country in the Parliament, in connivance with the enemy, in a matter of national security)
Treason is the violation of allegiance to one's sovereign or state, giving aid to enemies, or levying war against one's state.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Philip »

As the "truth outs",about the perfidious Paki atrocities,and the enormous cover-uo and appeasement of Pak by the PMO,MEA and the MOD,thanks to the asinine and ludicrous statements emanating from Congress cretins,like buffoon no.1,"Salman-the-Cursed" and his "stone" theory.What weed is this miserable specimen of humanity "stoned" on? Another joker on telly is one Gowda,whose heart bleeds for Pak,"going through such a difficult and sensitive time".His touching sentiment for Pak is shamefully contrasted by absolutely no sentiment for the 5 Indian soldiers killed or their families! "Do you want peace,he kept on squeaking?".Of course we want "peace",but not at the price of 26/11,butchered and beheaded soldiers and the continuing tale of cross-border terrorism by Pakis in and out of uniform.

One panellist ,giving an insight with inside info,said that there was a split within the Congress,with the PM and co. having a "personal agenda",while the party and Sonia were for a strong response.Finally St.Anthony read out (we hope) what is supposedly the riot act to Pak in parliament,in an effort to save his bacon,but the coterie around the PM and his Sancho Panzas like "Cursed",want to get their "p*ss prize" reward in Stockholm (promised for the snake-oil fakir by his "controller" Uncle Sam) and Padma prizes at home for NSA/MEA buffoons and babudom! So a great "Indian Takeaway" is being planned for Pak,who will walk away from the table what they could not win on the battlefield.The Paki establishment knows well the price of the Indian politicos and babus,especially this desolate regime of cowards and rent boys,whom they've wined and dined for a decade,such an obliging claque ,who have allowed the Paki military to run riot all over India.Whatever "the Saint" said in the house today in version 3, the damage has already been done.The cartoon posted showing the gleeful Pakis not needing a reply as AKA had done it for them,speaks volumes.

Truly,Dr."Speechless" Singh is India's Neville Chamberlain,who is waiting to wave to Indians a scrap of paper ,our version of "p*ss in our time",stamped and sealed perhaps in New York,so that he can lay claim for his ig-Nobel prize ?

Here is a 2011 speech by our beloved Hon.PM for Pak,this plot in the making has had a long gestation period!

http://tribune.com.pk/story/265832/indi ... han-singh/
India wishes to see a prosperous Pakistan: Manmohan Singh
Last edited by Philip on 08 Aug 2013 22:14, edited 1 time in total.
Lalmohan
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Lalmohan »

if we accept that jehadis == tspa then why are we so upset with this statement?
ramana
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by ramana »

Avarachan, What did I say to you that you have to stand by your statment? :) I think you got the wrong r.

Anyway one thing by taking up AKA on his statement the real perpetrators in PMO and MEA have been unmasked.


PremKumar, I think AKA statement was from the PMO's direction. You cant impeach MMS for he in not member of Lok Sabha!!!!

Philip, So glad your recall the Munich moment that I have referred to in the Strat Forum vis-a-vis MMS and his coterie.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Patni »

The current government is proving itself so incompetent and is down right hand in glove with paki establishment in wanting to obsolve pakis on any wrong doing what so ever!! I wonder if power that be wanted to issue statement saying aliens came and caused the "incident"! I have a question for gurus, Can there be a political pressure on Army to not to retaliate even for such a gross provocation? Does it mean the local commanders have to offer drinks and snacks to invaders and twiddle their thumbs while PMO and MEA pour over language in a draft to be read out to indian parliament to ensure that Indian public does not think paki's are responsible for ongoing terror against India! What kind of compulsion makes current government act and behave as they do??
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Prem Kumar »

Ramana ji: I wasnt asking for impeachment (even though that may be a consequence). "Trial for treason" and all its attendant punishment is what I am after

Lalmohan: most people on BRF have already mentally made the TSPA=Jihadi connection. That's not the khulji. But the aam-janta does not make this connection. I see so many comments like "Pakis are like us only", "they want peace", "its a few rotten apples in their army". Its safe to say that the mass, even-urban population of India hasnt seen through Pakistan's designs as clearly as many in BRF has

So, what gets people's goats here is the blatant attempt at watering down the incident to fool the aam-aadmi & provide a veneer of cover for the MMS-Sharif meeting with the "we are both guilty of terrorism" canard
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by manjgu »

just met a seniorrrrrrrrrr civil servant .. he said that watering /dilution of the army text happened at PMO level... anthony was a willing accomplice... traitors all of them...
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Avarachan »

ramana wrote:Avarachan, What did I say to you that you have to stand by your statment? :) I think you got the wrong r.


:) I think it's a mistake to view the UPA as a monolithic bloc, as many BRF posters allege. (For the record, I do not support the UPA. They are incredibly corrupt, and I support Narendra Modi as the next PM.) However, it's common knowledge in Dilli that AKA and MMS loathe each other. They are said to barely be on speaking terms. It has been this way for years.

MMS desperately wants to push through a "peace agreement" with Pakistan before he's voted out. I personally hope that AKA stays in the UPA government for the next several months and creates headaches for MMS ... For all of his flaws, AKA is patriotic in a way that MMS is not.

It's odd that someone as corrupt as MMS would take such a politically unpopular stance on Pakistan ... MMS certainly has skeletons in his closet. (The clearest example of this, for me, was his role in the Coal Scam. His corruption was too much even for "Tehelka," which published a devastating expose. http://www.tehelka.com/no-prime-minister)
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by manjgu »

foreign policy wrt pakistan is decided in the PMO.. but one must remember that AKA is no 2 in the UPA pecking order right now..and a possible PM candidate in case UPA 3 comes to power.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Lalmohan »

prem kumar - sure, but i interpret his statement as an attempt at sarcasm
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by SSridhar »

Fearing Nuclear escalation, India Limits its Response - Rajesh Rajagopalan, Economic Times
In the aftermath of yet another Pakistani transgression, we are back to the tired old arguments about whether or not India should be talking to Pakistan. Proponents argue that nothing has been gained whenever India stopped talking to Pakistan, as it did after every major provocation. Their opponents argue that dialogue has not stopped Pakistan's provocations.

Both sides are right and therein lies the simple truth that New Delhi refuses to acknowledge: dialogue or the lack of it has little impact on Pakistan. The reason Pakistan continues to provoke is that India has eschewed any retaliation for fear of nuclear escalation. Because Pakistan does not fear Indian retaliation, India's deterrence is dead. To prevent Pakistani provocations, India needs to resurrect its deterrence and that requires considering using military force.

Pakistan's nuclearisation has ended India's ability to deter Islamabad from provocations. Consequently, Pakistan has provided unprecedented levels of support to terrorist groups, which includes not only terrorist attacks in India but also against the Indian mission in Afghanistan.

Fearing nuclear escalation, both the BJP and the UPA governments have limited their responses to diplomatic protests and calling off dialogue. These are ineffectual responses that only serve to illustrate Indian helplessness. Pakistan knows that India will eventually have to return to talks.

Strategic Stupidity

It is not as if Indian leadership has been unaware of the problem. After Kargil, then defence minister George Fernandes and army chief General VP Malik suggested that India could explore limited conventional war options that would punish Pakistan without risking escalation.

Unfortunately that idea has not been pursued. After Operation Parakram, the Indian Army proposed a "cold start" doctrine. It was a plan for faster mobilisation because one lesson of Operation Parakram was that Indian military mobilisation took very long, which allowed international pressure and strategic secondguessing to undermine the Indian leadership's will to order a military retaliation. But Cold Start envisaged a much larger war and it might not be an appropriate response for anything but a catastrophic terrorist attack.

Also, Pakistan's introduction of short-range tactical nuclear weapons has increased New Delhi's apprehensions. In any case, at least formally, the Indian Army has discarded Cold Start. {Let's maintain that facade}

Indian leaders have further undermined our deterrence by repeatedly proclaiming that they do not want war. This is the one point on which there is consensus in New Delhi but consensus is not wisdom. Even if war is not an option, taking it off the table is the height of strategic stupidity. As long as India is unable to threaten Pakistan with military retaliation, Pakistan has little incentive to stop supporting terrorist actions against India. Diplomacy provides few useful responses.

Stopping the dialogue is a shortterm measure that will not deter Pakistan. Seeking international support is equally useless because even if the other powers support India diplomatically — which itself is a mighty big if considering Pakistan's talent for leveraging its strategic location — it will have little impact on Pakistan, as they have repeatedly demonstrated. Diplomacy can aid military power but it cannot replace it.

Retaliatory Option

India needs to consider all of its options, including the use of force. While force should not be the first option for all problems, force has to be an option at least in responding to attacks. The fear that any military operation would automatically result in nuclear escalation is halfbaked wisdom from a superficial reading of Cold War history.

The nuclear relationship between Washington and Moscow was very different because both sides deployed nuclear weapons on a hairtrigger, which meant that the slightest disturbance had the potential to set off a nuclear conflagration.

That is not the situation in South Asia where neither side deploys ready-to-use nuclear weapons. Pakistan refuses to join India in adopting a no-first-use of nuclear weapons pledge, which is understandable, given their inferiority in conventional military strength.

But this is taken as an indication of Pakistan's irrationality, which only strengthens Pakistan's deterrence because it effectively paralyses the Indian leadership.

Pakistan might have a first-use doctrine but it is first-use as last resort, much as Israel keeps nuclear weapons to ensure its survival. First use does not mean Pakistan will lob nuclear bombs as soon as the first Indian soldier crosses the border. As long as Indian action does not threaten the survival of the Pakistani state, it is unlikely that Pakistan will reach for nuclear weapons.

India does have the option of engaging in limited military retaliation, especially in PoK. Civilian and military leaders need to jointly reconsider the Fernandes-Malik proposals so that military retaliatory options are available to deter Pakistan and, if deterrence fails, to respond to Pakistan's provocations.

Without it, we will be condemned to repeat the facile dialogue-no dialogue debate after the next provocation, which is surely coming.


The writer is Professor of International Politics, JNU, Delhi
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Aditya G »

^ this article is a breath of fresh air ... and heartening to see it coming from JNU.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by merlin »

manjgu wrote:foreign policy wrt pakistan is decided in the PMO.. but one must remember that AKA is no 2 in the UPA pecking order right now..and a possible PM candidate in case UPA 3 comes to power.
In that case, since AKA was a willing accomplice, when UPA3 comes to power and he becomes the PM, the first people he will sell will be the forces.
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