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India Border Watch: Security and Operations

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Marten » 02 Jul 2017 20:06

Iyer San, why not add some notes so we know what the three links are for.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby DrRatnadip » 02 Jul 2017 21:32

rohitvats wrote:My analysis of the latest China India stand-off in Bhutanese territory:

http://vatsrohit.blogspot.in/2017/07/doklam-plateau-india-bhutan-and-china.html


Thank you for amazing analysis sir..Helped a lot to get good grasp of ground situation..

Is it only me or chinese govt/ media has really stopped warning / threatening us after tough stand by IA and govt..

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Guddu » 02 Jul 2017 22:39

Rohitvats, nice analysis, thank you for putting in the effort. This could be very useful for our understanding, should war break out. Next step is to watch for signs of downhill skiing from cheenis. I am glad MMS is not PM anymore!. Once this is over, it might have a sobering effect on pakis too.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby DrRatnadip » 02 Jul 2017 22:51

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/eye-on- ... 410894.cms

NEW DELHI: India has pushed in more troops in a "non-combative mode" to strengthen its position in an area near Sikkim, where its soldiers have been locked in a stand-off with Chinese troops for almost a month now in what has been the longest such impasse between the two armies since 1962.
India brought in more troops after the destruction of two of its bunkers and "aggressive tactics" adopted by the Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA), sources said. In a "non-combative mode", the nozzle of a gun is placed downwards.

I think this non combative mode is just symbolic gesture.. :?:

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Ashokk » 03 Jul 2017 01:05

India must withdraw troops to end Sikkim stand-off: Chinese media
BEIJING: Dismissing as "untenable" India's assertion that Beijing's construction of road in the disputed Doklam area poses "serious security implications", China's official news agency on Sunday asked New Delhi not to deviate consensus on developing bilateral relations.

Asking India to withdraw its troops from the area to end the current standoff, Xinhua news agency in a commentary said, "It is well known that the Sikkim section of the China-India boundary has been demarcated by the 1890 Sino-British treaty".

"After India's independence, the Indian government has repeatedly confirmed it in writing, acknowledging that the two sides have no objection to the border between the two sides of the Sikkim section," it said.

The Indian border troops' attempt to stop the Chinese military from constructing the road in the Doklam area has "cast a shadow over China-India relations", the commentary titled 'Don't deviate from the consensus on developing China-India relations' said, reiterating China's official stand on the issue.

While China has cited the Sino-British Treaty to buttress its claims, the Ministry of External Affairs (MEA) in New Delhi in a statement yesterday said that "where the boundary in the Sikkim sector is concerned, India and China had reached an understanding also in 2012 reconfirming their mutual agreement on the 'basis of the alignment'".

"Further discussions regarding finalisation of the boundary have been taking place under the Special Representatives framework," it had said.

But, Xinhua said there were a lot of evidence, including images, that the Indian military has violated the historic treaty and the commitment of successive Indian governments.

It also referred to the Chinese Foreign Ministry's release of two photographs and a map on the issue. The map shows Doklam, a disputed territory between China and Bhutan, as part of Chinese territory.

Referring to the MEA statement, the commentary said "the Indian side has claimed that China's activities pose a 'serious security impact' to India, and it is untenable".

So far China has not officially responded to India's statement on this issue.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ArjunPandit » 03 Jul 2017 03:42

DrRatnadip wrote:http://m.timesofindia.com/india/eye-on-china-india-pushes-more-troops-in-doka-la-in-longest-impasse-since-1962/articleshow/59410894.cms

NEW DELHI: India has pushed in more troops in a "non-combative mode" to strengthen its position in an area near Sikkim, where its soldiers have been locked in a stand-off with Chinese troops for almost a month now in what has been the longest such impasse between the two armies since 1962.
India brought in more troops after the destruction of two of its bunkers and "aggressive tactics" adopted by the Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA), sources said. In a "non-combative mode", the nozzle of a gun is placed downwards.

I think this non combative mode is just symbolic gesture.. :?:

Fail to understand why do we want to show ourselves as the 100th descendant of gandhiji. With all his love for peace, in these matters we should demonstrate more firmness with words. If we dont have words to back up our actions what strength will be attributed to us.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby DrRatnadip » 03 Jul 2017 10:22

ArjunPandit wrote:
DrRatnadip wrote:http://m.timesofindia.com/india/eye-on-china-india-pushes-more-troops-in-doka-la-in-longest-impasse-since-1962/articleshow/59410894.cms

NEW DELHI: India has pushed in more troops in a "non-combative mode" to strengthen its position in an area near Sikkim, where its soldiers have been locked in a stand-off with Chinese troops for almost a month now in what has been the longest such impasse between the two armies since 1962.
India brought in more troops after the destruction of two of its bunkers and "aggressive tactics" adopted by the Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA), sources said. In a "non-combative mode", the nozzle of a gun is placed downwards.

I think this non combative mode is just symbolic gesture.. :?:

Fail to understand why do we want to show ourselves as the 100th descendant of gandhiji. With all his love for peace, in these matters we should demonstrate more firmness with words. If we dont have words to back up our actions what strength will be attributed to us.


I think Modiji believes in Mahatma Roosvelt's foreign policy : "speak softly, and carry a big stick." .. When shit hits the fan IA will change direction of nozzle in no time towards chinese as*.. yindoos are evil onleee saar.. :twisted:

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby DrRatnadip » 03 Jul 2017 10:34

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/china-d ... 417593.cms

With how many countries does China have border disputes?
With 14 nations spread along their borders, China and Russia have more neighbours than any other country. China has border disputes with most of its neighbours. Over the years, it has resolved territorial disputes with Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Myanmar, Pakistan, Russia and Tajikistan. At present, its biggest border dispute is with India and Bhutan to some extent.

All this McMohan line dispute started when China annexed Tibet.. why it is binding on India to accept one china policy?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya_V » 03 Jul 2017 10:35

ArjunPandit wrote:
DrRatnadip wrote:http://m.timesofindia.com/india/eye-on-china-india-pushes-more-troops-in-doka-la-in-longest-impasse-since-1962/articleshow/59410894.cms

NEW DELHI: India has pushed in more troops in a "non-combative mode" to strengthen its position in an area near Sikkim, where its soldiers have been locked in a stand-off with Chinese troops for almost a month now in what has been the longest such impasse between the two armies since 1962.
India brought in more troops after the destruction of two of its bunkers and "aggressive tactics" adopted by the Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA), sources said. In a "non-combative mode", the nozzle of a gun is placed downwards.

I think this non combative mode is just symbolic gesture.. :?:

Fail to understand why do we want to show ourselves as the 100th descendant of gandhiji. With all his love for peace, in these matters we should demonstrate more firmness with words. If we dont have words to back up our actions what strength will be attributed to us.


There is no point in repeating 1962 where we went in unprepared. Here is it is better we equip ourselves properly first while keeping the pressure on the Chinese. It will be foolish for us to push for a war right now. The Chinese right now are testing all their neighbors to see who is the weakest and will attack them first. in 1962 we were the weakest and unprepared. They have tried to push South Korea and Japan, or attacking Taiwan- all options which bring US MIC and hence they have back stepped, the saw a weakness in us after 10 years of utter mismanagement but now realize that this is also becoming risky for them, Central Asian states and Russia are someone whom they don't want to take on as they dependent on weaponry from them. Vietnam understands the nature of the Chinese and is slowly arming themselves. Myanmmar is actign partly friendly while buying stuff from India and Russia to Hedge their bets. I somehow feel after testing all these nations they will feel Phillipines which has rebuffed the US as the least riskiest option and will show thier miltary might against them. We are right now target no.2.

Make no mistake the Chinese are itching for a fight to show their military powers and technology and bolster the average Chinese faith in the Communist party. They will take the least riskiest option. If the miltary balance was in thier favour Japan would have been the target.
Last edited by Aditya_V on 03 Jul 2017 11:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Marten » 03 Jul 2017 10:37

ArjunPandit wrote:
DrRatnadip wrote:http://m.timesofindia.com/india/eye-on-china-india-pushes-more-troops-in-doka-la-in-longest-impasse-since-1962/articleshow/59410894.cms

NEW DELHI: India has pushed in more troops in a "non-combative mode" to strengthen its position in an area near Sikkim, where its soldiers have been locked in a stand-off with Chinese troops for almost a month now in what has been the longest such impasse between the two armies since 1962.
India brought in more troops after the destruction of two of its bunkers and "aggressive tactics" adopted by the Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA), sources said. In a "non-combative mode", the nozzle of a gun is placed downwards.

I think this non combative mode is just symbolic gesture.. :?:

Fail to understand why do we want to show ourselves as the 100th descendant of gandhiji. With all his love for peace, in these matters we should demonstrate more firmness with words. If we dont have words to back up our actions what strength will be attributed to us.

Any violence at this point would be squarely pointed at China. As in "the bully pushed my non-combative troops and we could not avoid pushing back 50 kms!"

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Singha » 03 Jul 2017 10:43

great work Rohit

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Yagnasri » 03 Jul 2017 11:39

Aditya_V wrote:Make no mistake the Chinese are itching for a fight to show their military powers and technology and bolster the average Chinese faith in the Communist party. They will take the least riskiest option. If the miltary balance was in thier favour Japan would have been the target.


Agree. Like any bully they are looking for the weakest boy around. But the Philippines may be a difficult option as they do not have the serious naval force to do any major damage and The US may join the fight even if the present bad blood they have with the President of Philippines. China's serious power is its huge land forces and they can be put to use on us. Further, we are one of the serious challenges to them for the domination of the Asia and the world later. With 10 years of UPA rule, very low defence budget, serious weaknesses in Arti, sub and other items with depleting airforce we present a good target to them. Allowing NM to make our nation strong in say next 10 years will make the window close.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby putnanja » 03 Jul 2017 12:15

rohitvats wrote:My analysis of the latest China India stand-off in Bhutanese territory:

http://vatsrohit.blogspot.in/2017/07/doklam-plateau-india-bhutan-and-china.html


very good analysis along with maps Rohit! Please add a copyright statement to it, as otherwise, our media will just plagiarize it. As already seen, at least one website picks info on this forum and posts article claiming to be its own. The other media worthies are no better

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby chetak » 03 Jul 2017 12:16

Guddu wrote:Rohitvats, nice analysis, thank you for putting in the effort. This could be very useful for our understanding, should war break out. Next step is to watch for signs of downhill skiing from cheenis. I am glad MMS is not PM anymore!. Once this is over, it might have a sobering effect on pakis too.


war will not break out.

While India can ill afford to go to war at this stage, the hans have even less options to go to war.

A bloody nose administered to the hans at this stage, by India, will cause them an enormous loss of face and international confidence.

The resulting economic uncertainity with uncontrollable worldwide ripples in escalating oil prices as well as commodity prices will bring in Japan, US and others to exploit the situation in the South china sea.

After kargil, the IAF cannot be underestimated and nor can the IA.

Its best for the hans to maintain and even perpetuate the myth of 1962.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby pankajs » 03 Jul 2017 12:26

The 19th National Congress of the Communist Party of China will be held in Beijing, People's Republic of China in the autumn of 2017.

Per wiki,
The party delegates at the congress will elect the new leadership of the Communist Party of China, including the Central Committee and alternate members of the Central Commission for Discipline Inspection. During the meeting of new Central Committee, the elections of General Secretary (party leader), Politburo, Politburo Standing Committee and Central Military Commission will be held.


Very important is eleven wants to extend his term beyond the usual 2. He will have to pack all the important party position with loyalists and for that he needs wide spread support within the party.

That's both a positive and a negative. Positive in that any major hostility, especially if there is any chance of a blow to h&d, will mar eleven's victory parade. Negative in that make eleven determined not to back down / *lose face* before this important event.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby pankajs » 03 Jul 2017 13:37

What can be some of the Chinese objectives for the latest incident.

1. Try to change facts on the ground to its advantage.
2. Show of force to make India back down and convince others in our neighborhood about India's impotency.
3. Psy-ops on Indian leadership and masses to convince them of China's ascendancy/invincibility and then force unfair deals on it like OBOR/FTA.
4. Teach India a lesson for trying to get closer to US. This was executed around the time of Modi's US visit.
5. Prove to India that it is alone and its *alliance* with US is not going to protect it.

Now if India does not back down and even if this ends in some kind of negotiated stalemate, the following will follow

1. India is able to prevent *new* facts on the ground from coming to life.
2. India will emerge as having held it own against a *more powerful* neighbor and that will have repercussions on China beyond our immediate neighborhood. Even bakis will look back to this incident and wonder when the push comes to shove if the cheenis will back them with anything more than platitudes.
3. Psy-ops will have backfired and further more reinforce the Indian impression of the Chinese are unreliable. Future dealing are going to be more realistic.
4. No lesson learned by India.
5. Instill greater confidence in India that it can hold its own against China.

In any event, it will accelerate Indian defense spending and preparedness and push back hopes of China in getting access to India's vast markets. The only way for China to salvage any thing out of this is to fight and win and at least *teach India a lesson*.

Let watch how this unfolds.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Iyersan » 03 Jul 2017 13:40

pankajs wrote:What can be some of the Chinese objectives for the latest incident.

1. Try to change facts on the ground to its advantage.
2. Show of force to make India back down and convince others in our neighborhood about India's impotency.
3. Psy-ops on Indian leadership and masses to convince them of its invincibility and then force unfair deals on it like OBOR/FTA.
4. Teach India a lesson for trying to get closer to US. This was executed around the time of Modi's US visit.
5. Prove to India that it is alone and its *alliance* with US is not going to protect it.

Now if India does not back down and even if this ends in some kind of negotiated stalemate, the following will follow

1. India is able to prevent *new* facts on the ground from coming to life.
2. India will emerge as having held it own against a *more powerful* neighbor and that will have repercussions on China beyond our immediate neighborhood. Even bakis will look back to this incident and wonder when the push comes to shove if the cheenis will back them with anything more than platitudes.
3. Psy-ops will have backfired and further more reinforce the Indian impression of the Chinese are unreliable. Future dealing are going to be more realistic.
4. No lesson learned by India.
5. Instill greater confidence in India that it can hold its own against China.

In any event, it will accelerate Indian defense spending and preparedness and push back hopes of China in getting access to India's vast markets. The only way for China to salvage any thing out of this is to fight and win and at least *teach India a lesson*.

Let watch how this unfolds.

Agree with you Pankaj. Imagaine them turning back now from this stndoff. This isn't going to end . There is more to come

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby rohitvats » 03 Jul 2017 14:01

putnanja wrote:
rohitvats wrote:My analysis of the latest China India stand-off in Bhutanese territory:

http://vatsrohit.blogspot.in/2017/07/doklam-plateau-india-bhutan-and-china.html


very good analysis along with maps Rohit! Please add a copyright statement to it, as otherwise, our media will just plagiarize it. As already seen, at least one website picks info on this forum and posts article claiming to be its own. The other media worthies are no better


Thanks. How do you put a copyright?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya_V » 03 Jul 2017 14:08

Well , the Building of thee road indicates the Chinese are upto no good. The ball is in Xi's court , we know the Chinese leadership is pretty aggressive. They have 2 options.
1. Their gamble has been detected and India are not giving a Krishna Memon type response, let things cool down and quietly back down.. something we all wish that happens.
2. Take this further hoping Pakis, Militants, Maoists and BIF's forces can get an Indian defeat and Blow to Modi type act. I dont think the PLAAF as yet is in a position to dominate the LAC.

With Moonsoons starting the window for Maoists, Pakis to play major mischief is also closing.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby A Deshmukh » 03 Jul 2017 14:09

Chinese media is controlled.
Ground reality need not be same as projected in the media.
They will back down on the ground, but still project that India has agreed to their conditions in the media.
As usual, Indian press will help them.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby chetak » 03 Jul 2017 14:13

DrRatnadip wrote:http://m.timesofindia.com/india/china-doesnt-accept-the-mcmahon-line-agreed-on-by-britain-tibet/articleshow/59417593.cms

With how many countries does China have border disputes?
With 14 nations spread along their borders, China and Russia have more neighbours than any other country. China has border disputes with most of its neighbours. Over the years, it has resolved territorial disputes with Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Myanmar, Pakistan, Russia and Tajikistan. At present, its biggest border dispute is with India and Bhutan to some extent.

All this McMohan line dispute started when China annexed Tibet.. why it is binding on India to accept one china policy?


should hightlight this aspect of the han nation as a truculent, irascible and ill tempered international bully.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby chetak » 03 Jul 2017 14:16

rohitvats wrote:
putnanja wrote:
very good analysis along with maps Rohit! Please add a copyright statement to it, as otherwise, our media will just plagiarize it. As already seen, at least one website picks info on this forum and posts article claiming to be its own. The other media worthies are no better


Thanks. How do you put a copyright?


© along with the claim that you are the copyright holder.

Boilerplate should be available on the net.

Do it quickly, saar.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby putnanja » 03 Jul 2017 14:16

rohitvats wrote:
putnanja wrote:
very good analysis along with maps Rohit! Please add a copyright statement to it, as otherwise, our media will just plagiarize it. As already seen, at least one website picks info on this forum and posts article claiming to be its own. The other media worthies are no better


Thanks. How do you put a copyright?


Please put a copyright statement in the footer, something like "©Rohit Vats 2017. Contents should not be reproduced in part or full elsewhere without prior permission of the author."

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Marten » 03 Jul 2017 14:18

rohitvats wrote:Thanks. How do you put a copyright?

OT, admins please excuse.

Rohit, the license line "All rights reserved @2017 Rohit Vats" will suffice to restrict use. Putnanja has a good one there.

The easiest approach is to insert a creative commons license into your blog template. Picking the license is again complicated and depends on your objectives in controlling the content. Take a look at these examples: https://creativecommons.org/share-your- ... -examples/
PS: If you need help with the template, please ping on my email.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby rohitvats » 03 Jul 2017 15:06

putnanja wrote:
rohitvats wrote:
Thanks. How do you put a copyright?


Please put a copyright statement in the footer, something like "©Rohit Vats 2017. Contents should not be reproduced in part or full elsewhere without prior permission of the author."


Thanks. Have put a copyright statement. Also watermarked the images.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Iyersan » 03 Jul 2017 15:10

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 422611.cms
'India violated border ahead of Modi's US visit to show Washington it can contain China', says Chinese media :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby rohitvats » 03 Jul 2017 15:13

Thanks guys. Have done the needful.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya_V » 03 Jul 2017 15:19

I am bit worried, if the Chinese media is massively covering the dispute its mean the leaders in Beijing don't want to quietly back down, we must be firm in our stand and hopefully are well prepared for any escalation which could take place along the LAC.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Singha » 03 Jul 2017 15:29

could also be sun tsu tactics - try to win the war without any firing using media and #paidnews in desh who will chime in and advocate compromise.

there is also a tendency of some retired IFS officers to advocate peace at all costs because thats what they spent most of their careers doing, not fighting wars. and these people get lot of airtime on TV talk shows.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya_V » 03 Jul 2017 15:32

Yup, whatever it is get your logistics right to back the troops at the Border at Bhutan and Sikkim and rest of the LAC to keep the PLA and PLAAF in check.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby chetak » 03 Jul 2017 15:36

Aditya_V wrote:I am bit worried, if the Chinese media is massively covering the dispute its mean the leaders in Beijing don't want to quietly back down, we must be firm in our stand and hopefully are well prepared for any escalation which could take place along the LAC.


this is the han english media which has no audience in china. Its solely meant for foreign consumption.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby chetak » 03 Jul 2017 15:40

Singha wrote:could also be sun tsu tactics - try to win the war without any firing using media and #paidnews in desh who will chime in and advocate compromise.

there is also a tendency of some retired IFS officers to advocate peace at all costs because that's what they spent most of their careers doing, not fighting wars. and these people get lot of airtime on TV talk shows.


this is the eat pray love brigade.

enterprising clones of kapil kak's disgusting and intellectually immoral gang.

eat well, pray for more (liquid) eats and love (lets not go there!!) :wink:

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karthik S » 03 Jul 2017 15:45

Another sun tsu tactic could be: pretend to be big when you are small, and small when you are big, make noise in Sikkim, and pretend war will breakout. What if all this to draw attention from somewhere else. Above strategy of subjugating enemy without a fight will not work now, because they are the aggressors.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Iyersan » 03 Jul 2017 15:54

chetak wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:I am bit worried, if the Chinese media is massively covering the dispute its mean the leaders in Beijing don't want to quietly back down, we must be firm in our stand and hopefully are well prepared for any escalation which could take place along the LAC.


this is the han english media which has no audience in china. Its solely meant for foreign consumption.

How can we get to know whether they are discussing the same in the Chinese media too.

chetak
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby chetak » 03 Jul 2017 16:30

Iyersan wrote:
chetak wrote:
this is the han english media which has no audience in china. Its solely meant for foreign consumption.

How can we get to know whether they are discussing the same in the Chinese media too.


there may be sites monitoring han media in chinese and putting out translations. have a look see.

Iyersan
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Iyersan » 03 Jul 2017 16:36

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1054700.shtml
○ Instead of withdrawing its forces as demanded by the Chinese government, India has reportedly dispatched 3,000 troops to confront Chinese soldiers in a border area

○ India's recent intervention in the Doklam area has angered many Chinese, who have called for a counterattack

○ Scholars say New Delhi lacks trust in Beijing, which will undermine bilateral ties







Chinese frontier guards patrol the Sino-Indian border. Photo: CFP



An Indian army convoy moves towards the Chinese border in Pangong, a disputed territory between China and India. Photo: CFP

A recent confrontation between Chinese and Indian troops in the Sikkim section of the China-India boundary which was sparked when India moved into the Doklam area of Southwest China's Tibet Autonomous Region, has generated calls for a tough response in China.

Last month, Indian troops crossed into the area with bulldozers in an attempt to prevent Chinese troops from constructing a road in Yadong county.

Photos of the mid-June incident released by the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs on June 29 show Chinese soldiers trying to halt the Indian forces which had crossed a crest which China says defines the boundary between the two nuclear powers.

The southern Tibet border region has long been the site of territorial disputes between China, India and Bhutan. More broadly, the Sino-India border remains China's largest unresolved land territorial dispute, covering thousands of kilometers of boundary in the west and south of Tibet. Face-offs between border guards occur occasionally along the line.

"We once again urge the Indian side to abide by the existing boundary convention, respect China's territorial sovereignty, and immediately bring the border troops that have crossed into China back to the Indian side of the boundary, so as not to worsen the situation and land itself in a more passive position," Chinese foreign ministry spokesperson Lu Kang said at a June 29 press conference.

The Bhutanese government claimed on June 29 that China's road construction had occurred on its territory.

The Indian Ministry of External Affairs released a statement on the issue on June 30 in which it reiterated Bhutan's territorial claims, argued the road "would represent a significant change of status quo with serious security implications for India" and called for the peaceful resolution of the issue.

However, the Chinese foreign ministry has said that the location of latest skirmish is in an "undisputed" area the status of which has been "recognized by the Indian government repeatedly in writing."

Contradicting their own government, the Indian media said that China "transgressed" into their territory.

Many Chinese have called for a stern response. "Tolerance and weakness will only foment the Indian army's threatening manner. If Indian troops cross the border, Chinese soldiers should forcibly drive them away and fire if the efforts to dissuade them fail," said a Weibo user named Tangshan Jianke.

"We ask the Indian side to withdraw their intruders and investigate the incident thoroughly. If the Indian soldiers don't listen, we should take all necessary actions," said another.

Sun Shihai, honorary director of the Institute of Indian Studies, China (Kunming) Institute of South and Southeast Asian Studies, commented that the public outcry is understandable.

"Conflicts between Chinese and Indian border soldiers in the undisputed Sikkim section are rare," he told the Global Times. "But the use of force is not recommended. Both sides have agreed not to use military power to solve the border dispute. Both are nuclear powers, any kind of war will result in unthinkable consequences."

Following the incident, both India and China have strengthened their presence in the area, deploying around 3,000 troops each, according to The Times of India.

Purposeful provocation?

The recent face-off was first revealed by The Times of India with a 140-second video on June 26, showing Indian soldiers jostling with their Chinese counterparts.

The Times claimed that they obtained the video from a source who said the video was taken around 10 days prior to their report. The newspaper also claimed that Chinese soldiers "transgressed" into Indian territory along the border in Sikkim and that they were "aggressive" and "pushing the Indian troops."

The newspaper quoted the source as saying that Chinese troops had destroyed two Indian Army bunkers nearby after crossing the border.

The report, published shortly after Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi landed in Washington DC to begin a three-day visit to the US, soon circulated on Chinese social media and aroused great concern.

Many alleged that India wanted to show its "strategic value" to the US through "suppressing China." "India's provocation is possibly a gift to the US, so as to raise their bond and let the Americans feel that it can be their ally," one Weibo user said.

Zhicheng Dabing, a military commentator with about 150,000 fans on Sina Weibo, believes that the Indian troops must have received high-level orders to challenge China in Doklam. "From my experience, the case is neither accidental nor arbitrary trouble made by some border guards. Without the 'direction' of upper-level officials, the grass-roots soldiers wouldn't be so aggressive," said the commentator in an opinion piece that has attracted thousands of views.

Indian studies expert Sun Shihai, said intentional Indian provocations in the disputed border are rare. "But it doesn't rule out the possibility that the Indian Army wanted to demand more money by stirring up a confrontation, exaggerating the China threat," Sun noted.

Indian Defense Minister Arun Jaitley explained that India was "giving protection" to Bhutan as "China is trying to encroach on Bhutan's land," according to Indian Today. However, Beijing maintains that Doklam has been a part of China since ancient times. "That is an indisputable fact supported by historical and jurisprudential evidence, and the ground situation," said Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Lu Kang.

Peaceful process

As Beijing and New Delhi have increased patrols and construction of infrastructure in disputed regions in recent years, physical confrontations between their militaries - and their publication by the Indian media - have become more common.

In October 2015, Indian TV station NDTV broadcast a 2-minute video showing a dozen soldiers jostling and accusing each other of trespassing.

In August 2014, a longer video shot from the Indian side was posted online, showing dozens of armed Indian border soldiers pushing and quarrelling with their Chinese counterparts along a wall of stones.

"On the border disputes, New Delhi revealing them and then speculating and smearing Beijing has become a habit," said Jiang Jun, a researcher from the China Institute of Cyberspace Strategy, in a commentary recently published in the Global Times.

China and India have previously agreed that the disputes must be solved diplomatically. During the visit of the then Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao to India in 2005, Beijing and New Delhi signed a historic accord, agreeing to settle the decades-old border dispute without use of force.

In 2013 when the then Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh visited China, the two states signed the Border Defense Cooperation Agreement, reaffirming that both shall "exercise maximum self-restraint," "not use force or threaten to use force" and "prevent exchange of fire or armed conflict" when face-offs occur along the disputed areas.

Thanks to the mechanism, the confrontations in recent years have always ended peacefully. The soldiers from both sides have also reportedly gathered to celebrate the New Year along the border areas.

A Chinese frontier soldier serving in Tibet told the Global Times that they confront their Indian counterparts often but they have rules and mechanisms to resolve these standoffs.

"Eyeball-to-eyeball confrontations often happen when we meet them while patrolling. But we try our best to avoid physical contact or scuffles. We don't use weapons. There are also special people who can speak English who are in charge of communication," he said.

He also said when they discover shelters built by Indian patrols in disputed areas they dismantle them when the Indians leave.









Lack of trust

Since 2003, China and India have held 19 rounds of border talks, but little progress has been made. The divergences remain huge. But both sides have kept border disputes under control and prevented them from escalating into chaos or war.

Bilateral ties have met some rifts in recent years, such as India's absence from the Belt and Road forum held in Beijing in May, China's biggest diplomatic event of the year. "Lacking deep trust, they think China is excluding them," Sun said.

In recent years, India has reportedly been increasing and upgrading its military facilities along its borders with China and Pakistan, including installing high-resolution surveillance cameras, building railways and airports, and deploying advanced light helicopters.

"Experts say, at a time when China is flexing its muscles, India must expedite its strategic infrastructure projects to counter any potential threat," Indian Today said in a recent report.

"India has seen China as an enemy for years. But in Chinese international strategy, India has never been listed as a dangerous enemy," commented Sima Pingbang, a famous Chinese cultural critic with 3.5 million followers on Sina Weibo.

India is highly concerned about Chinese activities in Doklam as the area borders the Siliguri Corridor, a narrow stretch of land that connects India's northeastern states to the rest of the country.

New Delhi considers it a vulnerable security bottleneck and worries that Beijing will send troops to the corridor if a serious military conflict breaks out.

However, Sun dismissed the possibility of such a military clash. "Both China and India know clearly that war is the last choice and will focus on maintaining sound economic ties that benefit each other," he noted.

Sino-Indian border trade was suspended for decades after the 1962 border war. But since bilateral relations improved in the 1980s, China has opened several passes for trade along the border.

In 2006, the Nathu La Pass in Yadong at the Sikkim section of the boundary was opened to traders after closing for more than 40 years. During his 2014 visit to India, Chinese President Xi Jinping announced the pass would be open to Indian pilgrims.

However, due to Indian's recent intrusion near the pass, China announced it would suspend the admittance of Indian official pilgrims to China through the Nathu La Pass out of safety concerns.

"The Sino-India border dispute is essentially a historical burden left by Western colonists … maintaining peace in the area is a common understanding of the leaders from both sides," Jiang Jun said. "We hope the Indian side keeps its promise and take concrete measures to settle the confrontation."

Newspaper headline: Serious skirmish

Rahul M
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Rahul M » 03 Jul 2017 19:54

Marten wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:Fail to understand why do we want to show ourselves as the 100th descendant of gandhiji. With all his love for peace, in these matters we should demonstrate more firmness with words. If we dont have words to back up our actions what strength will be attributed to us.

Any violence at this point would be squarely pointed at China. As in "the bully pushed my non-combative troops and we could not avoid pushing back 50 kms!"

reminds me of a soviet news broadcast from the sino-soviet conflict era that I read sometime back; it ran something like this :

"in another incident of escalation by the PRC, a soviet kolkhoz owned tractor peacefully working on a farm near the sino-soviet border was fired upon by chinese armoured vehicles. Whereupon it fired back in self defence and drove back the chinese attackers across the border" :rotfl:

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby DrRatnadip » 03 Jul 2017 21:34

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/just-li ... 424022.cms

'Just like India, China is also different from 1962': Beijing reacts to Arun Jaitley's remark

jaitleyji's remarks have applied laal mirchi at chini bums.. It is to be seen how far they are willing to go..

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 03 Jul 2017 21:59

It was the Chinese who first brought up 1962, Jaitley responded, now the Chinese feel they have to respond back. Why bring up '62 at all?

DrRatnadip
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby DrRatnadip » 03 Jul 2017 22:31

meeting-on-cards-amid-border-face-off/articleshow/59427845.cms

BEIJING: Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Chinese president Xi Jinping are expected to meet on Friday at an informal leaders' meeting of BRICS countries during the upcoming G20 Summit in Hamburg, Chinese vice foreign minister Li Baodong said.


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