India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 30 Nov 2016 17:29

Despite being bang in insurgent land, sticking out like sore thumbs among the locals, and being exposed to much heavier stuff like VBIEDs, the US camps in Iraq and Afghanistan have been surprisingly resilient with the insurgents unable to breach the perimeter defences. Perhaps something for us to learn from in terms of the way their perimeter is structured, and the way concrete walls are set up?

Of course, there have been some notable exceptions like that CIA facility in Afghanistan, but that can be chalked down to CIA SOP and CIA-ISI double dealing, both quite different from the US/Indian Army facility scenarios.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 30 Nov 2016 17:51

^^^ The US Camps in Astan and Iraq are Forts. Indian Army bases are more like Small Towns.. big difference.

PS. the US Army saw enough of its bases security breached inside the "green zone" in Iraq a few years ago.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 30 Nov 2016 18:06

And the US military bases are in foreign (invaded and occupied) lands with very clear don'ts for the natives.

Any native not following the list is dealt with extremely violently.

On the other hand the Indian military is expected to be very careful about local sensibilities and be lenient about transgressions on our own land

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 30 Nov 2016 18:12

Manish_P wrote: On the other hand the Indian military is expected to be very careful about local sensibilities and be lenient about transgressions on our own land

So why shouldn't military not be careful about harming it's own citizens ?

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 30 Nov 2016 18:48

Sir, the Indian military shows outstanding concern, care and patience about not harming it's own citizens and their properties. What I have found lacking is that not all Indian citizens show the same concern and care towards the military. Hence there is perhaps room for some changes in the SOP and rules. Especially in the current state of affairs. When we are at war (hot cold, state non-state or whatever jargon one may wish to use).

jamwal wrote:
Manish_P wrote: On the other hand the Indian military is expected to be very careful about local sensibilities and be lenient about transgressions on our own land

So why shouldn't military not be careful about harming it's own citizens ?

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 30 Nov 2016 19:05

Shut and seal the borders, stop all contact and business, and hit the SOBs hard and often in all international fora.

Amen to that chetak saar

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 30 Nov 2016 19:23

chetak...a) its our misfortune that inspite of knowing the enemy for ateast 800 years ( how they behave...Shivaji knew the true character of Afzal khan) the polico-military complex has not found a way to deal with napakis effectively. a country which is 1/7 of our size is creating such a nuisance, is a poor reflection on us not so much on napakis. this is what i am trying to tell u that ...to protect ur house, attack the neighbours first..thats the only real security. Your paradigm/metaphor of first protecting own house before looking for enemy is not going to work ever. b) today they attack a camp in J&K and u ask families to be moved out ..tomorrow if there is a attack outside J&K will u empty that camp also? the example I gave u of public bus coming inside the camp and a train passing by is not from down south but from a very active station in north india.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 30 Nov 2016 19:37

I cannot even begin to understand the magnanimity of this gracious lady nor fathom the enormity of her loss and yet she retains her serenity.......

Respect.

These are the families that the MoD baboo(n)s have cheated.

ANI ‏@ANI_news 4h4 hours ago

I have no demand from the govt. I am proud he died for the country. May there be peace: Harmeet Kaur, wife of slain soldier #nagrotaattack

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 30 Nov 2016 20:03

Hope in all the demonetization exercise, NM isn't diverted by what's happening on the border. It could as well be planned to coincide with what's going in the country. When Uri happened, it attracted public's anger but now the public's mind is diverted.

Sanju · Post by **Sanju** » 30 Nov 2016 20:08

This actually works in the favour of the Govt. as it gives it time to respond with clarity. I don't like working with someone looking over my shoulders telling me what to do or how I should do something.....

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 30 Nov 2016 20:10

manjgu wrote:chetak...a country which is 1/7 of our size is creating such a nuisance, is a poor reflection on us not so much on napakis. this is what i am trying to tell u that ...to protect ur house, attack the neighbours first..thats the only real security. Your paradigm/metaphor of first protecting own house before looking for enemy is not going to work ever.

That's it. Just that I look at it from a different angle.

As a country 7 times the size of the Napakis (and growing), we can do both. And at the same time.

And we are doing it too.. in steps. Some not so visible, except to those directly involved.
(and some of a sensitive nature which cannot be disclosed and discussed on open forums)

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 30 Nov 2016 20:26

May Maj Akshay's soul attain moksha.

NirmOhi ‏@Bete_N0ire
Major Akshay took fire upon himself to save the ladies and children from the bullets of the jihadi pigs. He embraced martyrdom for India!

Rishi Verma · Post by **Rishi Verma** » 30 Nov 2016 22:59

Rest in Peace, India will avenge your sacrifice.

1. Major Gosavi Kunal Mannadir, aged 33 years hailed from Village Pandharpur, Distt Solapur,

2. Major Akshay Girish Kumar, aged 31 years , hailed from Koramangala, Bengaluru, Karnataka.

3. Havildar Sukhraj Singh, aged 32 years, hailed from Village Maan Nagar, PO Batala, District Gurdaspur, Punjab

4. Lance Naik Kadam Sambhaji Yeshwantro aged 32 yrs, hailed from Village Janapuri, Post Office Wadepuri, Tehsil Loha, District Nanded, Maharashtra.

5. Grenadier Raghvendra Singh, aged 28 years, hailed from Village Gadijatar, Tehsil Raja Khera, District Dholpur, Rajasthan.

6. Rifleman Asim Rai, aged 32 years, hailed from village Ratanchha, PO Khotang, Nepal.

7. Naik Chittranjan Debbarma, aged 37 years, hailed from village Garingpara, Bada Maidan Bazaar, Tehsil Ramchandraghat, Kalampur, West Tripura district, Tripura.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 30 Nov 2016 23:02

manjgu wrote:chetak...a) its our misfortune that inspite of knowing the enemy for ateast 800 years ( how they behave...Shivaji knew the true character of Afzal khan) the polico-military complex has not found a way to deal with napakis effectively. a country which is 1/7 of our size is creating such a nuisance, is a poor reflection on us not so much on napakis. this is what i am trying to tell u that ...to protect ur house, attack the neighbours first..thats the only real security. Your paradigm/metaphor of first protecting own house before looking for enemy is not going to work ever. b) today they attack a camp in J&K and u ask families to be moved out ..tomorrow if there is a attack outside J&K will u empty that camp also? the example I gave u of public bus coming inside the camp and a train passing by is not from down south but from a very active station in north india.

Hari Singh Nalua provided good solution but we got stuck in GandhiNehroo Secularvihu.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 30 Nov 2016 23:05

Is it just me or a lot of officers nowadays are coming from Bangalore city proper?

Rishi Verma · Post by **Rishi Verma** » 30 Nov 2016 23:12

Multi-layer Border Fence by 2017 End

They call it "patrol-free", but patrolling is always required as the rats can build tunnels. Drones, sensors etc can make it almost patrol free. Solutions exist today including autonomous vehicles who carry out patrols and sense change in scenery, thermal signatures, sound sensors etc etc.. Would be interesting to see what kind of a wall Trump builds along Mexico.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 01 Dec 2016 00:23

Rest in Peace, India will avenge your sacrifice.

1. Major Gosavi Kunal Mannadir
2. Major Akshay Girish Kumar
3. Havildar Sukhraj Singh
4. Lance Naik Kadam Sambhaji Yeshwantro
5. Grenadier Raghvendra Singh
6. Rifleman Asim Rai
7. Naik Chittranjan Debbarma

Someone wise in this thread said we are confused about Pakistan.
I whole heartedly agree.

It does not matter if you have a Pakistani passport or not, if you have an employment with Pakistan Army or Pakistan Sewerage Services of Karachi or not.
If you picked up a gun against us or think of committing a violent attack on our people and soil.
You are against us.

I today declare a new name for this nation.

Republic of NaPaqistan
There is nothing Paq about them.

Lets be clearly focused about our objectives and that is to train them not to even stare in our direction with an evil intention.
Whether we execute that training via Surgical Strikes or Pinaka over the LoC is upto the soldiers.

We need to get bitter and effing angry.
Lets stop being confused and start swatting the flies.
Enough Yaar

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 01 Dec 2016 08:33

http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/tunnel-du ... -detected/ ..the problem with fences !!.. and/or any physical barrier. I would have thought we would be doing a fire assault on villages on Paki side to tell them about the cost of building tunnels ? we have paid price of inaction for too long..time to pay price for action. and drill some sense in paki heads ( an oxymoron .i know).

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 01 Dec 2016 08:44

Gurus, although we have anger there is no point in blaming porkis, they do what they are breed to do. No different than any other enemies they will come with whatever they have. They are playing to their strength they know they are weak compared to big India so they choose their pakjabi talibunnies which you get dime a dozen from their asylum communities which are poor and factories to train them.

What we need to think is what should be our response. Brute , out of box and publicly humiliating. Gurus I have a suggestion can we create a list of targets near to border that are juicy (big H&D loss) that desh can target and with different out of the box solutions . Because their rationale is banyas would not attack and if they dare think about retaliation we have n clear bum we used the threats to bog us down. We need to destroy that comfort zone.Evil yinddoos not scared of bunnies or bums , they should be browning salwars

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 01 Dec 2016 08:58

manjgu wrote:chetak...a) its our misfortune that inspite of knowing the enemy for ateast 800 years ( how they behave...Shivaji knew the true character of Afzal khan) the polico-military complex has not found a way to deal with napakis effectively. a country which is 1/7 of our size is creating such a nuisance, is a poor reflection on us not so much on napakis. this is what i am trying to tell u that ...to protect ur house, attack the neighbours first..thats the only real security. Your paradigm/metaphor of first protecting own house before looking for enemy is not going to work ever. b) today they attack a camp in J&K and u ask families to be moved out ..tomorrow if there is a attack outside J&K will u empty that camp also? the example I gave u of public bus coming inside the camp and a train passing by is not from down south but from a very active station in north india.

every kid in India knows the way to deal with the paki but vote bank politics prevents the hammer from falling where it should.

The earlier camouflaged undercurrent of ummah sympathy and covert support has now changed character and has become more overt and above ground and our politicos have been encouraging this with people like nitish, mamta and mulayam egging them on. many congis are also hedging their bets by running with the hare and hunting with the hounds.

our 5 star alt left gaddar brigade is the fount of the lootyens support to the pakis. our gaddar burka butt gang is being patronized by the very cabinet ministers who ought to know better.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 01 Dec 2016 10:02

Aditya G wrote:Is it just me or a lot of officers nowadays are coming from Bangalore city proper?

There have been good number of people taking NDA/CDS exams from Bangalore. Personally know couple of classmates who made it to NDA. Many schools and colleges have good NCC programs, with good participation from students. Many from NCC try to take NDA exams after passing C certificate exams.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Dec 2016 10:21

Pakistan by now must have killed more Indian soldiers and civilians in Kashmir than we would have done by across the border surgical strike.

It's like we are getting paid back in kind by thousand cuts and its very sickening to get such news every day of our Officers and Soldiers getting killed , The surgical strike has just made the Jihadis more bolder.

Short of full scale conflict they would just keep killing our soldiers at the day and time of their choosing as Paki have said post surgical strike and they are doing the same , their only loss are few brain washed jihadi and we loose officers and soldiers.

Hope GOI/MOD stops their own self praise and does something more to stop this killing by thousand cuts that we are going through now

A Deshmukh · Post by **A Deshmukh** » 01 Dec 2016 10:37

krishna_krishna wrote:They are playing to their strength

We need to respond to our strengths:
- financial strength - we will win a long drawn battle of attrition.
- AirForce
- Navy
We are not using the IAF & IN where IMHO there is major disparity.

Even within the ambit of Army, we have
- Pinaka
- Brahmos
Time to use them to destroy their high value / high cost targets.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Dec 2016 10:43

String of tactical debacles concerns army

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2016/11/s ... html[quote]

By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 1st Dec 16

The tactical debacle in Nagrota on Tuesday, in which four militants stormed an army unit and killed seven soldiers, is the latest example of militant fidayeen (suicide attack) teams inflicting disproportionate casualties on army units. On New Year Day, a four-militant team entered the Pathankot air base, killing seven security personnel and injuring 20. On September 18, four militants struck an army camp in Uri, killing 19 and injuring 30 army jawans. In Nagrota yesterday, four fidayeen succeeded in killing seven soldiers, including two officers, before being gunned down themselves.

This is anathema for an army that frowns on a “kill ratio” poorer than four-to-six militants killed for the loss of each soldier. This success rate was maintained even during the most violent years in J&K. In 1999, 270 soldiers were killed while 1082 militants were eliminated (1 : 4 ratio); in 2000, it was 311 killed against 1,520 militants dead (1 : 4.9) ; in 2001, a total of 408 army men laid down their lives while killing 2020 militants (1 : 4.9); in 2002, 362 soldiers died while the army gunned down 1707 militants (1 : 4.75); and in 2003, the price paid for eliminating 1,494 militants was 258 soldiers dead (1 : 5.7).

In the last three years, with militancy on the ebb and the army operating more lightly, the ratio was two-to-four militants killed for each dead soldier. In 2013, 32 soldiers died, while killing 67 militants (1 : 2 ratio); in 2014, it was 31 soldiers dead, while gunning down 110 militants (1 : 3.5); and last year, 28 soldiers laid down their lives while killing 108 militants (1 : 3.

.

With army casualties on par with militant casualties this year, there is pressure to establish what has gone wrong. Even more worrying than casualty numbers is the jihadis’ success in Pathankot, Uri and Nagrota at breaching what should have been tightly guarded perimeters, and gaining access to the lightly guarded interiors of military establishments and camps. A brigade commander notes: “We were fortunate that the jihadis could do serious damage only in Uri”.

A fidayeen squad, which must attack from the open against sandbagged and protected sentry posts on the perimeters of army camps, should suffer heavy casualties while forcing an entry. That the militants entered unharmed in Pathankot, Uri and Nagrota speaks of poor siting of sentry posts and careless sentries.

Even more worrisome is the tactical sloppiness on the Line of Control (LoC) that allowed the bodies of several soldiers to be mutilated by militants or Pakistani soldiers. When soldiers leave their posts for patrolling or laying ambushes, they are at least a section, i.e. ten men. While adversaries can sneak across the LoC and ambush such a patrol, even cause casualties with an initial burst of fire, trained soldiers start fighting back immediately, according to basic infantry drills.

“Only in one situation can a patrol justifiably allow its dead or injured soldiers to fall into enemy hands --- and that is when every single member of that patrol is dead or badly wounded. Good soldiers do not leave comrades behind”, says a retired general.

In a healthy army, alarm bells would have rung long ago, with basic tactical standards being demanded and subordinate commanders disciplined. Instead, tactical booboos keep getting repeated.

In a vibrant military, the next level of oversight comes from its veterans who, in military culture, are custodians of tradition and professional standards. Unfortunately, veterans gloss over declining professional standards, focusing instead on demands for better pensions, salaries and status --- important issues, but secondary to professional proficiency.

On television, on Tuesday, senior officers downplayed the Nagrota fiasco. One general argued: “I think it is an admission on the part of Pakistan that the surgical strikes [of November 29] were successful.” Said another, on the question of lax perimeter security: “No matter how highly secure you are, [with militants] who are determined to kill and prepared to die, there is no hundred per cent defence against it… These attacks cannot be stopped at the target end, they can only be stopped at the source end.”

In fact, the truth is quite the opposite. India can do little to stop jihadis at the “source end”, i.e. Pakistan. Where the military can stop them is at the “target end” --- through better perimeter security, tactical drills and higher standards of accountability.

The final level of oversight --- the political leadership --- is the quickest to abdicate responsibility. Bharatiya Janata Party spokesperson, BVL Narasimha Rao, declared on television after the Nagrota attack: “I do believe that after a series of such attacks, we ought to do everything possible to secure ourselves; at least secure our military establishments. But this is not a political [responsibility]… It’s the army themselves… I think they are in a position to take any decision that they need to; they don’t require any government’s intervention in this.”

The government’s disinclination to get involved is remarkable, with tactical debacles like Uri having strategic effects, and creating an imperative for escalation that impacts India-Pakistan relations. At Uri, incompetent management of a camp’s perimeter defence forced the government to order “surgical strikes”. This had the potential for dangerous escalation, while ultimately doing little to deter Pakistani adventurism.

Ultimately, when the Indian Army enters full crisis mode, there is no doubting its ability and resilience. Kargil was an example when, in 1999, tactical and intelligence laxity were set aside and the situation recovered, albeit bloodily. In Pathankot, Uri and Nagrota, examples of individual competence partially retrieved situations that could have played out more damagingly. Yet, the army cannot afford to gift success to militants again. There remains the possibility that a windfall jihadi “success” --- such as the destruction of Pathankot’s fighter aircraft; mass casualties in Uri, or wives and children taken hostage in Nagrota --- could allow a four-man fidayeen team to take India and Pakistan to war. [/quote]

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 01 Dec 2016 10:52

Something is seriously wrong with Ajay Sukla. Even if we assume that there is truth to his assertion of sloppiness in our Army, he is advocating that India remain a punching bag and just focus on securing itself because Pukistan's behavior cannot be changed. What a loser.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 01 Dec 2016 10:56

What were the authorities doing??

Not learning lessons?

Not learning lessons?

Thursday, 01 December 2016 | Pioneer | in Edit

Time to review Campose committee suggestions

The fidayeen attack on the high security 166 Field Regiment located near the Nagrota-based 16 Corps Headquarters in Jammu, is shocking. But our soldiers fought valiantly, and prevented the attack from turning into a full-fledged hostage situation. Sources say that there exists serious laxity in providing state-of-the-art security to such vital infrastructure.The Government should be extremely careful as there have been persistent attempts by the militants to cause damage on the Indian defence establishments since the attack on the Pathankot air base in January. This assault needs to be viewed more seriously, as it happened within the vicinity of an Army installation, which houses nearly 1,000 officers, and is also crucial for the defence of the borders of the entire Jammu region.

The Army and the intelligence agencies should create an additional cover of security ring around these camps, because the militants have a habit of looking for high-impact attacks. Also, there needs to be a thorough analysis on the preparedness of our ground forces to strike at the Islamists, who simply come to lay down their lives, armed with the most sophisticated weapons. The casualties highlight the fact that the Government, and particularly the Army, needs to learn many lessons, even as the country has already witnessed two previous major attacks this year itself. The administration must bring in crucial changes to provide adequate security to military establishments. Should we respond only when some major incident takes place? The Government must initiate comprehensive measures so as to minimise suicide attacks or sudden terror strikes of this scale. The Armed Forces must not leave gaps, as the State of Jammu & Kashmir can well see more fidayeen attacks the in days to come — and not just in J&K.

There should be swifter follow-up action from the Government on the critical recommendations given by a tri-service committee, headed by Lieutenant General Philip Campose. This panel was constituted immediately after the Pathankot terror attack in January. Reports say that, if the Government would have taken some of the key points of the committee into consideration, it could have led to further improvements in the security of our Armed Forces’ installations and possibly prevented the Uri attack. The Campose committee mainly stressed on upgrading security infrastructure at all military installations by using modern access control and perimetre security-cum-intrusion detection systems.

It is disheartening to note that our troops and sentries are not equipped with the most modern weapons against the infiltrators. The panel strongly recommended a larger supply of sophisticated arms and ammunition to our forces. It also suggested revamping and standardising the system of response to intelligence-based alerts and real terror attacks. The bottom line is clear for India: It has to live with a recalcitrant neighbour like Pakistan which wants to bleed this country with a thousand cuts, and has to get ready for more such misadventures. Though the baton has just passed on to a new Pakistan Army chief, General Qamar Javed Bajwa, who is expected to lessen hostility across the border, it is in the DNA of the Pakistan Army to disturb peace in India. Thus, India must always remain prepared

A Deshmukh · Post by **A Deshmukh** » 01 Dec 2016 11:26

We have two options:
A) improve the security of our bases.
this is easier said than done.
100s of bases spread all over the country with 100s of kms of perimeter.
to be equipped with technology - cameras, sensors - technology & manpower costs.
this will cost a lot of money.

B ) offensive defence - go after the sources.

We have been doing option (A) for last 25 years - fencing the LOC and IB with lights, thermal sensors, etc.
it does not work. for a terrorist attack to be successful, they need only 1m of breach in 100s of kms of perimeter.

we need to increase the cost of TSP for such events.
for every such attack we need to target their army bases, not just terrorists camps.
for attack on AF base - Pathankot, we need to send missiles and destroy their AF base.

Asymmetric retaliation. MAD doctrine.
Cold War detente was established after Soviets feared a asymmetric retaliation from over aggressive US.

With surgical strikes & demonetization, Modi has established a reputation - Modi kuch bhi kar sakta hai. Maintain that reputation.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 01 Dec 2016 11:33

Good to see forum members not doing a Muharram over retaliation or lack of it like was done after the uri attack. People are patiently waiting for GOI to explore options and try them out. Good progress...

BTW...Pakis after Kaluchak are targetting army personnel families after 16 years.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 01 Dec 2016 11:50

In the last three years, with militancy on the ebb and the army operating more lightly, the ratio was two-to-four militants killed for each dead soldier. In 2013, 32 soldiers died, while killing 67 militants (1 : 2 ratio); in 2014, it was 31 soldiers dead, while gunning down 110 militants (1 : 3.5); and last year, 28 soldiers laid down their lives while killing 108 militants (1 : 3..

The above equations misses the important third parameter (hopefully 2016 will mark the change)

2013 - 32 indian soldiers, 67 militants, 'x' paki soldiers (1:2:?)
2014 - 31 indian soldiers, 110 militants, 'y' paki soldiers (1:3.5:?)
2015 - 28 indian soldiers, 108 militants, 'z' paki soldiers (1:3.8:?)

Obiviously we can't expect the numbers to be revealed by the H&D obssessed Pakis

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 01 Dec 2016 11:51

I think armed forces in India do care for civilians. People are also required to be careful and sensitive to the security requirements.People shall also not come inside secured areas by climbing the walls etc in the night or when there is a serious terror threat is there.

A few years back on youth ran from police and entered into a top military officer's residence in Cantonment area in Bangalore and was taking in Urdu ( he was Muslim) on this mobile with his friends while security and police were searching for him. He was shot dead on the spot. It was at night 1 am or thereabouts. Later it was found that fellow was just doing two-wheeler racing with his friends and when stopped by police ran into cantonment area. You need to be careful which houses you jump into at the dead of night and when called for security at least show yourself.

nits · Post by **nits** » 01 Dec 2016 14:16

Israeli Model of Fencing which is now being planned for Pak and BD Border

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 01 Dec 2016 15:03

^ The above image shows 50 mtrs width

Then we have this - Samba attackers entered from Pakistan via 80-metre tunnel

I am not saying that it is a bad idea or that we should not replicate it. Far from that. Just that what works well for Israel might not necessarily work (as well) for us. We must constantly evolve and find our own solutions to our challenges.

nits · Post by **nits** » 01 Dec 2016 15:30

^^ i think we need Steel\ Iron pipes or mesh (with Electric Current) below the fence to stop the Tunnel route

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 01 Dec 2016 16:08

Praveen Swami, reviled here( often rightly) was really good and concise in an NDTV discussion about Pathankot to Nagrota. He chastised the Indian public for their short memories, and for being more concerned about mourning for the dead soldiers, than for supporting measures to ensure their safety. And I liked how he remarked that all that happens is committee after committee after committee is formed to deal with with these setbacks, with little action on the ground. Is this going to be the turning point that is badly needed?

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 01 Dec 2016 21:50

Cross post from the COIN thread

anjan wrote:On the Nagrota attack as recvd from reliable quarters:
Nagrota Terror Attack. I was waiting for today's papers to see if their so called investigative journos tell us something about the real problem but all one got was generic views and solutions. The real problem is that the entire cantt is located on both sides of National Highway 1 and most units like this arty regt are located bang on the roadside. Though a by pass which is a superb expressway exists and is used by long route buses and other vehicles but there's heavy traffic on the Nagrota Cantt road since it's a shorter route and also used by the vast civil population of Nagrota . The army authorities had closed this road for civ tfc when the by pass came up few years back but our civilian brethren moved the court and got an order against the army action. So for the convenience of local civilians the security of entire cantt is being compromised. The local MLA of Nagrota constituency Mr Davinder Rana of NC backs up the cause of his vote bank with no concern for army men.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 01 Dec 2016 22:09

Manish_P wrote:^ The above image shows 50 mtrs width

Then we have this - Samba attackers entered from Pakistan via 80-metre tunnel

I am not saying that it is a bad idea or that we should not replicate it. Far from that. Just that what works well for Israel might not necessarily work (as well) for us. We must constantly evolve and find our own solutions to our challenges.

israel too has found many tunnels in their border areas.

just build the fence first and deal with the tunnels as and when.

after fencing, maintain constant watch to see that it is not compromised. IR cameras are increasingly used in the border areas these days.

or it will be like the old story......... For the want of a nail, the shoe was lost etc etc.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 01 Dec 2016 22:45

Building a fence on top of what's already there if futile, there are number of examples in the world to set precedence. It will be a waste of huge money, manpower and resources.

We have to take this war to their home, given them taste of their own medicine. Support an armed insurgency and call them "democracy loving freedom fighters". We have all means to outspend/outlast these piglets. Create a mukti bahini in their hinterland.

Make them realize their punch line of "we are a fragile nooclear armed nation, please touch me not". Make them really fragile to the point where other nations have no other choice to take control and press the reset button on their forces.

This long term/short term strategy BS is not working.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 01 Dec 2016 23:18

Any idea how much money would this fence system cost ? Add the maintenance costs and it will be cheaper to just destroy the major paki population centers if we wish to stop infiltration.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 01 Dec 2016 23:58

Better fencing is at best a tactical response, when what is needed is a new strategy. How long of a fence will we create? How about Indian sea borders? And can we stop Islamist ideas using fences?

Pakis are being 'tactically brilliant' here. Their strategy appears to be
a. Wage psychological warfare by selecting and attacking soft military targets, such as messes etc. on troops who are not oriented towards counter insurgency.
b. Deflect international attention and condemnation by attacking combatants.
c. Boost the morale of Kashmiri separatists.
d. Keep the Kashmiri issue alive to sustain the politico military setup in Pakistan.
e. If there is a slight misstep by Indian forces, raise up a hue and cry about the 'hooman rights' etc.

Indian tactical response can be:
a. Better fences/patrolling by UAVs, technological solutions. But this can't eat up too much of our def budget. Every Rs spent on 'better fences' is money that could have gone towards items like the Dhanush/LCA/Arjun etc. Stuff that can actually kill Paki soldiers.
b. Better equipment and training to soldiers. New SOPs perhaps.

Indian Strategic response needs to be:
a. Wage psychological war on Pak by raising Indus treaty issues, well publicized strikes/fire assaults, taking out HVTs etc.
b. Continue to make India attractive to foreign investment and grow the economy even more.
c. The Islamist genie is out of the bottle in Kashmir. Some serious thought needs to be given on how to deprogram these idiots.
d. Offensive defense. Its time to reach out and touch the Paki afsar class. They cant plan these ops with the expectation that its only the cannon fodder who will get killed.
e. Domestic and International media strategy.

ranjan.rao · Post by **ranjan.rao** » 02 Dec 2016 01:18

^^sudeep to your point d on Indian Strategic Response Major Gaurav Arya had an excellent post on fb today...in office so can't access it now...