India Border Watch: Security and Operations

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 52593
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 13 Aug 2013 21:42

Rohitvats got the later khat also. So can you paint the big picture for all to understand?

My thnking is the TSP atyachar at LOC is to relieve pressure on PRC. The TSP wants IA to divert more troops for political reasons to relieve the pressure on PRC facing front.
We are seeing the virtual two front war that was talked about all along.

KrishnaK
BRFite
Posts: 948
Joined: 29 Mar 2005 23:00

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby KrishnaK » 13 Aug 2013 23:58

ramana,
The TSP wants to take on additional Indian pressure when it's getting mauled in the more pak parts of pakiland ? I think they're being too clever by half as usual.
Last edited by KrishnaK on 14 Aug 2013 05:41, edited 1 time in total.

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7633
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby rohitvats » 14 Aug 2013 00:01

ramana, I haven't given thought about recent flare-up from this angle. I think the current flare up is a more complex development. What you refer to could be one angle. But then, we're not thinning out troops from the valley to beef up the eastern Ladakh border. Let me put some thought to it.

member_22906
BRFite
Posts: 306
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby member_22906 » 14 Aug 2013 00:04

Me thinks its Mr. Sharif trying to warm up to PA and the hardliners by supporting them on the anti-India stand... Otherwise, how do you think their National Assembly would have come up with an anti-India statement today.

Nawaz Bhai is an opportunistic politician and he knows that his longevity on the gaddi is directly proportional to his relationship with PA and their associate jingbang

shyamd
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6807
Joined: 08 Aug 2006 18:43

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby shyamd » 14 Aug 2013 02:40

Army chief wanted to hit Pak hard, LoC battle rages
Army chief General Bikram Singh has reprimanded his top commanders in Jammu and Kashmir for not launching a massive retaliatory strike against the Pakistani army along the Line Of Control (LoC) after five Indian soldiers were killed in an audacious cross-border strike in Poonch sector on August 6.


General Singh visited the Nagrota-based Headquarters 16 Corps outside Jammu a day later and, according to top sources, asked senior commanders why local commanders along the volatile border did not order artillery and mortar fire on Pakistani posts.

The chief had instructed local commanders on the LoC to retaliate strongly, if provoked, after the January 8 cross-border raid in which Pakistani troops beheaded one Indian soldier and gunned down another 500 metres inside Indian territory in the Mendhar sector.

The border remained tense with Pakistani troops violating the ceasefire yet again early Saturday, firing more than 7,000 rounds of ammunition and mortar shells for almost seven hours at Indian posts in Poonch sector. In retaliation, Indian troops fired 4,595 rounds of ammunition, including mortar shells.

It was the 58th incident of ceasefire violation this year and came just a day after Pakistan prime minister Nawaz Sharif said the neighbours should honour the 2003 ceasefire agreement and not allow the situation to escalate.

A senior army official said there was no ambiguity in the army chief's orders to mount a massive response in case of provocation by the Pakistani army by way of ceasefire violations.

"The first question the chief asked the J&K commanders was what stopped them from retaliating with artillery and mortar fire. His orders for offensive action were clear," he added.

"I expect all my commanders on the LoC to be aggressive and offensive in the face of provocation and fire," General Singh had said after the January attack.

A top government source agreed with the aggressive stance advocated by General Singh, saying India should be able to punish Pakistan or the so-called non-state actors at a threshold below full-scale war.

The use of artillery could escalate tensions along the border, but it is equally critical for the army to take decisive action to punish Pakistan, experts said.

Under pressure over the mishandling of the Poonch attack - defence minister AK Antony first blamed "persons dressed in Pakistani army uniform" and later retracted, saying the intruders were "specialist troops" - the government has finally been able to build political consensus to launch punitive strikes against Pakistan if such cross-border raids are repeated.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 52593
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 14 Aug 2013 05:48

^^^^
A top government source agreed with the aggressive stance advocated by General Singh, saying India should be able to punish Pakistan or the so-called non-state actors at a threshold below full-scale war.



others of his ilk will try to find fault with Indian Army and advise the politicians.
I don't like unnamed govt sources. Its not like they need to be shielded from public glare.
If they cant be named they sohouldnt be quoted for all it does is give warm feeling.
Gen Bikran Singh has come out publically stating what his orders were .No need for this 'unnamed" govt source!

They are usually the source of grandmother tales.

Vipul
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3728
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 03:30

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Vipul » 14 Aug 2013 21:50

Intelligence inputs ignored with fatal fallout on LoC.

n the din over the government’s flip flop over the Pakistani Army killing five Indian soldiers last week was lost the fact that the Indian Army had ignored Intelligence warnings and patrolling protocols as the jawans ventured out to guard the five-km stretch of the 778-km Line of Control (LoC) in Jammu and Kashmir. An initial Army probe has discovered that Intelligence agencies recently intercepted important conversations suggesting the BAT (Border Action Team) units of the Pakistani Army’s border battalions would carry out attacks on Indian security forces, which was shared with the Indian Army in July, sources said. The commanding officers—21 Bihar battalion Commanding Officer Col C S Kabsuri, under whose command the patrol team operated; 91 Infantry Brigade commander Brigadier S K Acharya, who is Kabsuri’s immediate boss and Acharya’s boss and 25 Infantry Division commander Major General V P Singh—are in the gunsights of a Court of Inquiry probing the incident. So is the Nagrota-based 16 Corps commander Lt Gen B S Hooda who commanded these officers.

The Court of Inquiry will go into how the team prepared to go about their patrol, the sequence of events leading to the ambush, and what Indian forces did after the attack,” a senior Indian Army officer said. “Initial information shows that there were gaps in the manner the patrol team and their commanders followed Standard Operating Procedures (SOPs),” said an Army source. He said the unfortunate team was not expecting an attack and was not careful enough to look out for the intruders. The Pakistani specialist troops operation had resulted in the death of five of the six soldiers, while the sixth, Sepoy Shambhaji Kute was injured. He is the only eyewitness from the Indian side and at present, and is recuperating at a military hospital in Jammu region.

Intelligence sources said that last week’s attack was planned 15 days in advance. The Indian patrol team’s movement from Begum to Cheetah posts and their state of alertness were monitored for several days before the actual operation using the cover of darkness was executed on Tuesday.

Apart from technical interception, there were telltale signs of cigarette butts and tea packs in the area, suggesting the aggressive movement of ISI spotters close to the border regions. Our forces were warned to remain vigilant,” a source said. However, those warnings seemed to have been largely ignored. The patrol team and its commanders are being faulted for “not expecting the worst” from the Pakistani side, despite intelligence agencies cautioning them of an attack along the LoC. They were also warned about ceasefire violations by Pakistani regulars to provide cover for terror infiltrations, which has increased by 80 per cent this year than last year.

After Army Chief Bikram Singh’s visit to the LoC following the killings, a Court of Inquiry under a Brigadier has been instituted to list flaws and gaps in the SOPs issued to all border-guarding Army units and to suggest remedies to ensure the troopers follow them in letter and spirit,General Singh rushed to Nagrota first near Jammu and then to Akhnoor, about 30-km away from the LoC, to meet with the officers in charge on August 7. They gave a presentation to explain the sequence of events as happened at the border. The meeting took place at a military station in Akhnoor, after General Singh’s attempt to reach the Brigade headquarters at Poonch failed due to bad weather.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 52593
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 14 Aug 2013 23:55

So at what level of the Army was the intelligence provided? And do the troops have an Intelligence Crops section near the borders to watch for signs of intrusion?

And why is the chain of command being revealed for no good reason?

anjan
BRFite
Posts: 449
Joined: 08 Jan 2010 02:42

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby anjan » 14 Aug 2013 23:59

‘PMO to blame for soldier deaths’

Senior commanders in the India-Pakistan battlefield say that the rules of engagement enforced by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh are the cause of the multiplying number of deaths of Indian soldiers at the hands of the Pakistan army. According to them, present Chief of Army Staff General Bikram Singh "follows the PMO's directives in practice while publicly talking about a tough response" to Pakistani provocations,

They said that scrutiny of postings would show that "those commanders who inflicted a robust response to provocations were quickly moved out of sensitive commands".

Heard the same through the grapevine. What a sad bloody state of affairs. :(

satya
BRFite
Posts: 717
Joined: 19 Jan 2005 03:09

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby satya » 15 Aug 2013 00:04

To make them look guilty in eyes of gullible indians. And why HT is publishing lies about previous authorization on use of artillery & mortars , till date no such authorization has been given nor will it be given marna hei kya in adh-maron ko . Its hot air nothing else , wake me up when you hear on use of artillery before 2014 if at all . Most if not all frontier artilley pieces is in storage . Leave artillery even heavy mortars have been taken away !

shyamd
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6807
Joined: 08 Aug 2006 18:43

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby shyamd » 15 Aug 2013 01:21

Islamic revolution becoming serious August 14, 2013 3 0 Rate This

The number of cease fire violation on the Line of Control have gone up five fold in the past few weeks and the Indian intelligence agencies say that this is a clear indication to show that the Islamic Revolution in Pakistan is becoming serious.

The Research and Analysis Wing with the Military Intelligence Bureau has been reading the situation in Pakistan and sources in these agencies tell rediff.com that the problem has become 5 fold. Nawaz Sharrief, Pakistan’s Prime Minister has offered the olive branch, but the resolutions that has been passed in Paksitan blaming India for the violations is a clear sign of things to come.

The surge in cease fire violations and infiltrations over the past few months is a result of many events in Pakistan. Once Nawaz Sharrief took over as the Prime Minister, he has been making the right noises politically regarding better ties with India. These statements have created a problem in various circles in Pakistan. While his own party men who were part of the resolution feel that there is no need to take a soft approach towards India, the army wants to remind him that while talks are fine there are certain No-Go areas which he should be careful while treading on. In addition to this there is the ISI and also the Lashkar-e-Tayiba which have upped the ante and are planning strikes against India to show that they have the upper hand.

According to former Chief of the Research and Analysis Wing, the Loc has always been a dangerous place. A lot of these incidents have been directly related to either cover or diversionary fire. Back in 2003 when the joint statement by the two countries were signed the cease fire violations and also the infiltrations had come to a complete standstill. However when the government changed in India and the civilian government was in force in Pakistan there was a steady increase in the number of such incidents and today it has reached its peak.

Now with Nawaz Sharrief sending messages of peace and repair the political message is positive. The army has been very silent all this while and were all through telling their own flock that they should not be reading too much into these statements. Now with General Ashfaq Kayani’s term coming to an end there is a tussle on on the appointment of the next chief. Would Kayani appoint his man or will the Prime Minister decide on who should succeed him? The Pakistan army is clearly sending a message to Sharrief that we have let two successive civilian governments be in force and are not interested in upsetting the same. But there are certain areas in which the government should not tread on and if there is interference we will try and derail any form of peace process with India. The strategic and security decisions will be driven only by the Pakistan army, Sahay also points out.

According to the Intelligence, there is a constant need for both the army and the terrorists groups under the ISI to remind the government of Pakistan that they are still around. Both the ISI and the Hafiz Saeed factions find the need to constantly tell the government while talks are fine, one should remember that they are always around. The intelligence also says that the last message is always aimed at the United States of America. These Pakistan groups only want to tell the US that the more they do business with India, there would be more such attacks.

While these factors have always been part of a Pakistan policy, it is extremely worrisome that the Parliament has passed such a resolution on the LoC violation, This is something that needs to be read in deep and carefully, Indian agencies point out. Now both the Punjab assembly and the Parliament are not under the control of the military or the ISI. In fact it is under the PML today. The resolution is totally contrary to what Sharrief has been saying to India. According to the Intelligence reports this is an indicator of an Islamic revolution which is emerging in Pakistan. It is clearly a resolution which has been aided and backed by the Mullahs of Pakistan who want to get a hold of the political process. This has been an ongoing struggle within Pakistan and the Hafiz Saeeds are trying to take control over the political process and what happened yesterday only indicates that this revolution is becoming serious and the effects of the same are seen in India, the Intelligence Bureau also points out.

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1627
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 15 Aug 2013 12:16

^^

This is what I had said earlier as well. There is a strong feeling that commanders who are robust and offensive are shunted out. There are a lot of instances of people being hauled up. I guarantee you that if there had been mortar and artillery fire in response the commanders would have been facing a COI.

In the 90s ad early 2000s one heard of some cases especially in the NE of jawans asking their YOs (Young Officers) 'Sahab main kis ke liye lad raha hoon'...this was in the case of CI Ops but I have never heard of a situation where troops would ask this question vis a vis the Pakis. Never. That was the one certainty of their existence. And now that is in question. Like Maj Gen GD Bakshi says (in the video I posted earlier) a Jat jawan asked him 'Tanne decide kar le saab ki main maroon ya na maroon te hukum de di do'. Your PM is telling you 'make this a mountain of peace', the leader of the ruling party visits and supports terrorist families, your media keeps talking about peace, your foreign minister...the less said about him the better. Our troops are simple people (like me). They get confused hearing all this. The will and the resolve of the nation is transmitted to the consciousness of the troops and is found wanting. And now we are launching a witch hunt and exposing individuals the chain of command. Apart from the info we give the enemy, this is corrosive to our morale.

We (govt , COI) are asking the wrong questions in a witch hunt as well. Our posture has always been defensive. You cannot patrol and defend every bloody inch of territory especially against an enemy who has been fighting a proxy war deep inside your territory for decades. For normal countries one or a very few incursions into territory is a declaration of war. If you want your borders to be sacrosanct then you have to fight offensive actions in enemy territory on your terms and impose unacceptable costs on misadventures.

We are big country with 10 times their GDP and despite all the issues with our defence preparedness we still have an overwhelming advantage over the Pakis. But we have let all that be neutralised. Either because we have bought their nuclear bogey nonsense or if RSN Singh (the video I posted earlier) is to be believed because they have infiltrated really deep into our polity.

Atleast lets ask the right questions now.

chaanakya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9516
Joined: 09 Jan 2010 13:30

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby chaanakya » 15 Aug 2013 22:47

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/massi ... c/1155841/

After Pakistani troops resorted to unprovoked and indiscriminate firing on several Indian forward posts in Balakote belt of Poonch district earlier in the day, the Indian Army has launched a massive retaliation to it. According to latest reports, intense firing has been going on across the LoC.

On Thursday morning, three Indian jawans and a civilian were injured in Poonch sector of Jammu and Kashmir.

The injured soldiers have been shifted to a hospital.

This is the 11th ceasefire violation in past five days, Army officials said today.

A shell of 82-mm mortar fired by Pakistan troops fell in Sanjote forward area of Mendhar tehsil resulting in injury to Parvaiz, a civilian, who was shifted to GMC hospital in Jammu.

A rocket fired by Pakistani troops fell and exploded on a cowshed in Basonia village of Mendhar this afternoon resulting in death of a dozen cattle.

Defence Spokesman, Jammu, S N Acharya said in a official release that Pakistan Army started unprovoked firing at Indian forward posts in Mendhar sector from 06:30 AM.

"Our troops retaliated immediately with heavy calibre weapons," he said, adding that the firing was on till late in the afternoon.

"The 2003 Indo-Pak ceasefire has become meaningless. There is daily firing these days as was witnessed before the 2003 truce between India and Pakistan," a senior security officer said.

There have been 57 ceasefire violations by Pakistani troops from January 1 to August 5 this year, which is 80 per cent more than during the same period last year, the defence spokesman said.


And from across
http://yawn.com/news/1035936/indian-she ... ad-kashmir



MUZAFFARABAD: Relentless shelling by Indian troops from across the Line of Control (LoC) left another civilian dead and his daughter wounded in a village of Azad Jammu and Kashmir, officials said on Wednesday.

The Indians started firing at about 9pm on Tuesday ‘without any provocation’, initially in Nakial sector of Kotli district and later in Satwal, Battal and Tetrinote sectors in the neighbouring Poonch district, they said.

“The Indian troops used small and heavy arms, including artillery, targeting mainly the civilian population,” assistant commissioner Malik Ayub Awan told Dawn from Hajira, in Poonch district.

He said a shell landed on a hamlet in Battal sector after midnight, killing 65-year-old Sakhi Mohammad and injuring his 26-year-old daughter, Aarzoo. At least eight more houses and one shop were damaged in the area.

Mr Awan said due to shelling as well as heavy rain, electricity and telephone lines were also damaged, making it difficult for the officials to ascertain losses instantly. But electricity supply and telecom facilities were restored by the evening.

A military official told Dawn that Pakistan Army responded to the Indian shelling in a befitting manner.

“Definitely, we did respond to silence their guns. However, unlike them (Indians) we do not target civilian populations across the LoC but only military posts and installations,” said the official, who declined to be identified because he was not authorised to speak to the media.

ashish raval
BRFite
Posts: 1390
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 00:49
Location: London
Contact:

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ashish raval » 16 Aug 2013 02:08

^^ Bring on Pinaka, Bofors :twisted:

member_23360
BRFite
Posts: 152
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby member_23360 » 16 Aug 2013 03:42

Brahmos too !! :)

Vipul
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3728
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 03:30

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Vipul » 16 Aug 2013 08:04

An insecurity trap of India's making.

Have you thought of why India faces unending cross-border acts of aggression while persisting with a process of dialogue and peace building? Is it merely because India has scofflaw neighbours? Or, can at least part of the blame be pinned on India’s pursuit of a foreign policy driven by neither pragmatism nor statecraft?

Take the challenge from Pakistan, a country 1/13th India’s size economically: After suffering each attack since the late 1990s, India has had the same debate, largely centred on the merit of staying put in the process of talks with Islamabad. Few ask the real questions: How many more attacks is India willing to bear? Is there no limit to India’s patience? What has outraged the country over the two recent back-to-back Pakistani acts of aggression—the suicide raid on the Indian consulate in Jalalabad and the ambush-killing of five soldiers along the Line of Control (LoC)—is more the government’s meek response and prevarications than the attacks themselves.

A key plank of Pakistan’s jihad strategy is deniability. Carry out an attack, deny involvement, keep India engaged in talks to serve as a continuing cover, and execute the next attack. This strategy can fool no one. But India’s political class is so corrupt and compromised that it has little time to look beyond self-interest.

Indian leaders are very protective of their own interests. Indeed they have an over-inflated view of themselves. Their hard-headedness in serving personal interests contrasts with their faint-heartedness in shielding national interests. If they had spent just a quarter of their time on their primary duty—protection of national interest—the country wouldn’t be in the mess it is today, with the economy sinking, national security under siege, and pessimism reigning.
The foundation of India’s weak-kneed foreign policy was actually laid between 1999 and 2004 by Atal Bihari Vajpayee, who executed more policy U-turns than probably any other prime minister since independence. Vajpayee’s roller coaster policy on Pakistan exacted a major toll on institutionalized policymaking, exposing India’s inadequacy to set and unwaveringly pursue clear goals.

Under Vajpayee—who also surrendered India’s Tibet card in a 2003 Beijing visit—personal rather than professional characteristics defined foreign policy. His shifting Pakistan stance traversed through Lahore, Kargil, Kandahar, Agra, and Parliament, before culminating in Islamabad on his second trip to Pakistan as prime minister. It was Vajpayee’s 2001 Agra invitation that helped Pervez Musharraf to come out of the international doghouse for staging a coup.

In an operation with no parallel in modern history, the Indian military was kept in war-ready position for 10 months, ostensibly to force Pakistan to dismantle its terrorist infrastructure. Yet, without accomplishing any objective, Vajpayee called off the costly, self-debilitating operation, which the then Navy chief later labelled the “most punishing mistake”. Worse still, Vajpayee during his 2004 Islamabad visit hailed as a big gain Pakistan’s commitment on paper to not let its territory to be used for cross-border terrorism—the very assurance Musharraf had given before Operation Parakram began.

Vajpayee’s swinging policy pendulum emboldened his successor, Manmohan Singh—a foreign policy greenhorn—to pursue a blinkered approach that blended naiveté with appeasement, thereby inviting greater acts of aggression against India. Mistaking tactics for strategy, he has treated the process of engagement with Pakistan (and China) as an end in itself, losing sight of the purpose—putting an end to acts of aggression.

Singh’s fixation on quasi-failed Pakistan has paralleled Vajpayee’s quest to make peace with that implacable enemy. The Vajpayee and Singh eras will also be remembered for the corruption in public life, with scandals at times sought to be deflected through peace-building with Pakistan. A famous son-in-law in each of the two eras came to symbolize unbridled corruption.

Is it any surprise that personal and not professional characteristics have shaped foreign policy for almost 15 years now? This trend marks goodbye to institutionalized policymaking.

Singh, of course, has taken appeasement to unmatched levels. In 2006 at Havana, he equated the exporter of terrorism with the victim of its terrorism, setting up the infamous and now-defunct joint anti-terror mechanism. Three years later at Sharm el-Sheikh, Singh included Baluchistan in the agenda—grist for the Pakistani propaganda mill that India was fomenting the insurrection there. This blunder also allowed Pakistan to externalize the Baluch problem by turning its terrorism target, India, into the principal accused.

Even the savagery last January, when Pakistani troops chopped two Indian soldiers and took away one severed head as a trophy, failed to stop Singh from returning to business as usual with Pakistan, in spite of his own promise to the nation that it won’t be business as usual. The result is that Singh’s constant engagement of Pakistan has yielded uninterrupted Pakistani acts of military brutality and terror. In fact, the worst acts of cross-border aggression have occurred during Singh’s stint as Prime Minister.

Instead of dictating terms to Pakistan, India allows it to retain initiative. Each time India is caught by surprise, it does little more than react passively. Whereas Pakistan’s India policy has remained consistent for long, India’s ad hoc Pakistan policy continues to inflict self-injury.

Make no mistake: India has fashioned its own insecurity trap. To break out of it, it must pursue a clearheaded, goal-oriented foreign policy focused on an assertive promotion of national interests. That process can begin only if India stops looking at inter-country relations through rose-coloured glasses and establishes professional policymaking.

Rishirishi
BRFite
Posts: 1055
Joined: 12 Mar 2005 02:30

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Rishirishi » 19 Aug 2013 04:58

Vipul wrote:An insecurity trap of India's making.

Have you thought of why India faces unending cross-border acts of aggression while persisting with a process of dialogue and peace building? Is it merely because India has scofflaw neighbours? Or, can at least part of the blame be pinned on India’s pursuit of a foreign policy driven by neither pragmatism nor statecraft?

Take the challenge from Pakistan, a country 1/13th India’s size economically: After suffering each attack since the late 1990s, India has had the same debate, largely centred on the merit of staying put in the process of talks with Islamabad. Few ask the real questions: How many more attacks is India willing to bear? Is there no limit to India’s patience? What has outraged the country over the two recent back-to-back Pakistani acts of aggression—the suicide raid on the Indian consulate in Jalalabad and the ambush-killing of five soldiers along the Line of Control (LoC)—is more the government’s meek response and prevarications than the attacks themselves.

A key plank of Pakistan’s jihad strategy is deniability. Carry out an attack, deny involvement, keep India engaged in talks to serve as a continuing cover, and execute the next attack. This strategy can fool no one. But India’s political class is so corrupt and compromised that it has little time to look beyond self-interest.

Indian leaders are very protective of their own interests. Indeed they have an over-inflated view of themselves. Their hard-headedness in serving personal interests contrasts with their faint-heartedness in shielding national interests. If they had spent just a quarter of their time on their primary duty—protection of national interest—the country wouldn’t be in the mess it is today, with the economy sinking, national security under siege, and pessimism reigning.
The foundation of India’s weak-kneed foreign policy was actually laid between 1999 and 2004 by Atal Bihari Vajpayee, who executed more policy U-turns than probably any other prime minister since independence. Vajpayee’s roller coaster policy on Pakistan exacted a major toll on institutionalized policymaking, exposing India’s inadequacy to set and unwaveringly pursue clear goals.

Under Vajpayee—who also surrendered India’s Tibet card in a 2003 Beijing visit—personal rather than professional characteristics defined foreign policy. His shifting Pakistan stance traversed through Lahore, Kargil, Kandahar, Agra, and Parliament, before culminating in Islamabad on his second trip to Pakistan as prime minister. It was Vajpayee’s 2001 Agra invitation that helped Pervez Musharraf to come out of the international doghouse for staging a coup.

In an operation with no parallel in modern history, the Indian military was kept in war-ready position for 10 months, ostensibly to force Pakistan to dismantle its terrorist infrastructure. Yet, without accomplishing any objective, Vajpayee called off the costly, self-debilitating operation, which the then Navy chief later labelled the “most punishing mistake”. Worse still, Vajpayee during his 2004 Islamabad visit hailed as a big gain Pakistan’s commitment on paper to not let its territory to be used for cross-border terrorism—the very assurance Musharraf had given before Operation Parakram began.

Vajpayee’s swinging policy pendulum emboldened his successor, Manmohan Singh—a foreign policy greenhorn—to pursue a blinkered approach that blended naiveté with appeasement, thereby inviting greater acts of aggression against India. Mistaking tactics for strategy, he has treated the process of engagement with Pakistan (and China) as an end in itself, losing sight of the purpose—putting an end to acts of aggression.

Singh’s fixation on quasi-failed Pakistan has paralleled Vajpayee’s quest to make peace with that implacable enemy. The Vajpayee and Singh eras will also be remembered for the corruption in public life, with scandals at times sought to be deflected through peace-building with Pakistan. A famous son-in-law in each of the two eras came to symbolize unbridled corruption.

Is it any surprise that personal and not professional characteristics have shaped foreign policy for almost 15 years now? This trend marks goodbye to institutionalized policymaking.

Singh, of course, has taken appeasement to unmatched levels. In 2006 at Havana, he equated the exporter of terrorism with the victim of its terrorism, setting up the infamous and now-defunct joint anti-terror mechanism. Three years later at Sharm el-Sheikh, Singh included Baluchistan in the agenda—grist for the Pakistani propaganda mill that India was fomenting the insurrection there. This blunder also allowed Pakistan to externalize the Baluch problem by turning its terrorism target, India, into the principal accused.

Even the savagery last January, when Pakistani troops chopped two Indian soldiers and took away one severed head as a trophy, failed to stop Singh from returning to business as usual with Pakistan, in spite of his own promise to the nation that it won’t be business as usual. The result is that Singh’s constant engagement of Pakistan has yielded uninterrupted Pakistani acts of military brutality and terror. In fact, the worst acts of cross-border aggression have occurred during Singh’s stint as Prime Minister.

Instead of dictating terms to Pakistan, India allows it to retain initiative. Each time India is caught by surprise, it does little more than react passively. Whereas Pakistan’s India policy has remained consistent for long, India’s ad hoc Pakistan policy continues to inflict self-injury.

Make no mistake: India has fashioned its own insecurity trap. To break out of it, it must pursue a clearheaded, goal-oriented foreign policy focused on an assertive promotion of national interests. That process can begin only if India stops looking at inter-country relations through rose-coloured glasses and establishes professional policymaking.


Pakistan is loosing the battle big time. It is now surviving on external charity. Without it they are a failed state. The attacs on India hurt individuals but are meaningless for India as a whole. If anything they contribute towards the increase of military budgets.

Vipul
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3728
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 03:30

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Vipul » 19 Aug 2013 06:41

India's security concerns are not limited to Shitistan. Our pussyfooting will cause us irrecoverable losses to China.

Murugan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4191
Joined: 03 Oct 2002 11:31
Location: Smoking Piskobidis

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Murugan » 19 Aug 2013 08:14

Chaiwala Khabar

IA destroyed 5 posts of Pukis.

How authentic?

kidoman
BRFite
Posts: 108
Joined: 07 May 2008 09:55
Location: Temple City,Kalinga
Contact:

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby kidoman » 19 Aug 2013 10:21

^^^More on the same.. Includes some nice footage..

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/i ... 1376888077

Aditya G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3391
Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Contact:

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya G » 19 Aug 2013 13:47

FWIW ....

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 898095.cms

RAJOURI: Sending a strong message to Pakistan over repeated ceasefire violations and BAT attacks, a top Army commander today warned it was making a "serious mistake" and said a befitting reply would be given with "full force" at the time and place of its choice.

"You (Pakistan) are making a serious mistake (with regard to ceasefire violations and BAT attacks)- do not do it," General Officer Commanding (GOC) 25 Infantry Div, Major General VP Singh told reporters here.

He was replying to volley of questions about what strong message he wants to convey to Pakistan with regard to increase in ceasefire violations, cross border firing and Border Action Team(BAT) attack on forward Indian posts along LoC in Poonch.

India has blamed BAT, which is a mix of Pakistani special forces personnel and terrorists, for the brutal killing of its two soldiers in January, one of whom was beheaded, and killing of its five personnel along Line of Control in Poonch sector.

"...what you are putting across - it is not going to affect, deter us or weaken our resolve," General Singh said.

He further said that the Army is here to respond to each and every act of Pakistan in which ever way it feels so.

Regarding Army's strategy in the wake of the BAT attacks engineered by Pakistan, Gen Singh said "as far as BAT action is concerned, we are absolutely aware what kind of response it is going to get - that response will be delivered".

"It will be delivered in our own time and at the place of our own choosing and with full force, that you shall see.

"It is a military matter - as and when the response is delivered - you will see", he said, adding "the response would be delivered-- we will select our time and place to give a befitting reply to Pakistan with full force," he said.

Gen Singh said the Defence Minister and the Chief of Army Staff have given his command clear directions that violation of ceasefire or any other act of infiltration from acros LoC will be met resolutelywith power and full force.

"As far as I am concerned, those directions are with me - we are responding and retaliating to the situation as per the requirements with full force", Gen Singh said.

He further said that Army Chief had also made it clear that Army is free to reply and respond to the BAT attacks as per opportunity and strategy.

"As per opportunity and situation, what is to bedone - everybody knows it and reply accordingly will be given."

At another media briefing at Bhimbher Gali in Poonch sector along LoC, Brigade Commander, 120 Infantry Brigade, Brig A Sengupta said Army has inputs about Pakistan trying to engineer more BAT attacks along the border.

member_20067
BRFite
Posts: 628
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby member_20067 » 19 Aug 2013 16:22


Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2190
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Prem Kumar » 21 Aug 2013 00:17

"It is a military matter - as and when the response is delivered - you will see", he said, adding "the response would be delivered-- we will select our time and place to give a befitting reply to Pakistan with full force," he said.


What a relief! For a moment there, I thought we wouldn't do anything. I had a similar anxiety attack in January after the beheadings. Thankfully, the COAS came to the rescue even then with a "time & place of our choosing" morale-booster.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36302
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby SaiK » 21 Aug 2013 01:40

Image
Image
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... epage=true

The DBO sector saw about 50 Chinese soldiers crossing the LAC and setting up a remote camp in Depsang plains in April. The stand-off ended when both sides agreed on May 6 to pull their forces back to positions held before the confrontation in the highly strategic region that abuts the Karakoram Highway joining Pakistan to China. As LAC is not yet demarcated, both sides have differences in their perception, leading to patrols often entering into each other’s territory.

symontk
BRFite
Posts: 900
Joined: 01 Nov 2001 12:31
Location: Bangalore

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby symontk » 22 Aug 2013 08:52

My spider sense tells me that there is more to Border violations from China and Pakistan. Apart from that, the attacks against Indian establishments in Afghanistan is up

The West is planning a war against Syria on lines of GW1. Even the dates of the Syrian chemical gas attacks are uncannily similar to the so called planned Iraqi "invasion" of Saudia and Egypt in 1991.

The pakistani border tension's aim is to isolate India from muslim states which are supporting Syria like Iran and Iraq. Chinese border tension is to ensure both states (India & China) are out of reckoning

That leaves only Russia for a support for Syria

NB: Iraqi minister visit is not a co-incidence

Just my paise..


Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13271
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Lalmohan » 22 Aug 2013 16:54

^^^ just goes to show that the border is far from peaceful at any point and that everyone has to be continuously on their guard at all times

Chandragupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3469
Joined: 07 Dec 2008 15:26
Location: Kingdom of My Fair Lady

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Chandragupta » 22 Aug 2013 17:55

Log on to timesnow right now. Running video of a chinese incursion.

Aditya G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3391
Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Contact:

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya G » 22 Aug 2013 21:39

Chandragupta wrote:Log on to timesnow right now. Running video of a chinese incursion.


Feel sorry for the platoon commander. He has to talk with nice words and diplomacy. Wonder what our mea babus and mantris do over chai biskoot sessions with Chinese? :roll:

Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2190
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Prem Kumar » 22 Aug 2013 22:11

If indeed what Praveen Swami says is true, then its not something to hate him for. It means that the IA needs to modify its operating procedures and always be on alert.

The reason we hate Praveen Swami is because he peddles lies (like Grandmother crossing LOC) and does a cheap equal-equal between our army and the pigs from across, thereby justifying the killing of our soldiers.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 52593
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 22 Aug 2013 22:30




...Forensics have shown the slain men were killed with single shots, fired at almost point-blank range, evidence of a surgical, well planned ambush. Kute, by his account to military investigators, had no opportunity to respond. Hopelessly outnumbered, firing back would have achieved nothing in any case.

“There’s little doubt it was a highly professional ambush”, a senior military official said, “and there’s no way it could have happened without Pakistani troops nearby knowing it was being planned”.

“This was not done by some semi-trained jihadis,” he said......



Killing sleeping troops is murder. Its not an ambush where an unaware party is attacked.

This refusal to recognize the action is a major reason for the repeat attacks.

Its a murder party and not an ambush.
in an ambush you have attacking troops lie in wait and fire upon the unwary troops.

Killing sleeping troops in their own staging area in their own territory is murder in any book.


And its cowardly of the leaders to treat it as just a raid by enemy troops.

Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2190
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Prem Kumar » 22 Aug 2013 22:34

Yes - but lets watch how the media spins it like "the Army is lazy" rather than call out this act as "murder"

member_23455
BRFite
Posts: 602
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby member_23455 » 22 Aug 2013 23:55

ramana wrote:
Killing sleeping troops is murder. Its not an ambush where an unaware party is attacked.

This refusal to recognize the action is a major reason for the repeat attacks.

Its a murder party and not an ambush.
in an ambush you have attacking troops lie in wait and fire upon the unwary troops.

Killing sleeping troops in their own staging area in their own territory is murder in any book.


And its cowardly of the leaders to treat it as just a raid by enemy troops.


Murder is what governments and armies do...and they have legal sanction to do it. Getting fuzzy-minded and dewy-eyed about rights and wrongs is what gets people killed.

Thanks for the military 101 lesson though on an ambush being one where the ambushed party is first made aware and then attacked. :roll:

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 52593
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 23 Aug 2013 02:37

First there is no war declared
Second the Indian soldiers were on Indian side of LOC
Third they were killed while sleeping.

You think that is an ambush?

member_27444
BRFite
Posts: 488
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby member_27444 » 23 Aug 2013 03:15

Antony is chamcha who has screwed the forces right royal. Iota of self respect so called Saint he would resigned long back

Shaashtanga
BRFite
Posts: 199
Joined: 07 May 2011 06:43
Location: Canuckistan

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Shaashtanga » 23 Aug 2013 05:35


rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7633
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby rohitvats » 23 Aug 2013 05:50



That report makes no sense.

The b@stard has used only couple of lines of data points and weaved a whole unrelated article around it - article meant to do an 'equal=equal' between IA and PA and give some breathing space to UPA. He is proving to be an useful idiot to peddle government line by being fed particular data points.

So, Antony's statement was based on 'less than complete' testimony of the lone survivor? What exactly is the visibility in dead of night along LOC? What would be visible to anyone, especially, when your enemy has laid an ambush and would have tried very hard to completely conceal himself? Is it too much to expect from GOI to understand that anything that comes from across the LOC has PA written all over it - irrespective of the fact whether it comes in Khakhi or salwar-kameez.?

As per the report, the 6-man patrol was going from Cheetah post to Begum post via Delta - which is occupied occasionally by IA. IMO, since this post was between LOC and fence, it was used more as an observation point and halt for patrols on other side of the fence to dominate space between fence and LOC.

So, PA was expecting the patrol and was familiar with the troop movement - not surprising since battalion change would involve certain standard SOP and they would have kept watch. PA team was actually waiting for the patrol to occupy the position and then charged the same - this is a classic Commando raid on enemy position(s). And carried with the simple objective of killing Indian soldiers for the sake of it - there was no tactical advantage gained by the raid nor did it serve any short-term classic military purpose.

It was meant to send across a message - pure and simple.

Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2190
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Prem Kumar » 23 Aug 2013 07:33

And right on cue, the termites come out of the woodwork. Read Rajat Pandit's hatchet job, basically rehashing the Praveen Swami piece and adding his own masala

Indian soldiers were 'sitting ducks' in August 6 ambush due to 'tactical lapses'

Sitting ducks indeed. No frigging respect for the 5 jawans who laid down their lives for our nation. Both Rajat Pandit & Praveen Swami claim that the investigation is ongoing & an official report is forthcoming. But that's not stopping them from speculating and adding garam masala to the story.

Do these guys know what the SOP is? Does it allow for the jawans to rest at the post while one sentry keeps watch? If they dont know, they should wait for the official report, not speculate & spit on the ashes of the men who died.

Another gem
well-planned, military-style ambush
.

Well Mr. Pandit, it was carried out by the Pakistani military & is hence a military-style ambush, you twat!

Here is another insidious phrase I see being employed in the last month in various articles

Indian and Pakistan armies have been trading heavy fire with each other across the LoC ever since the incident, which has also pushed the early resumption of the bilateral composite dialogue process into cold storage once again. There have been over 30 ceasefire violations since August 6, bringing the total number to over 85 so far.


Read the 2 bolded sections. Tell me the impression it tries to slyly convey. It makes it look as though *both* India and Pakistan are violating the ceasefire. There "has been ceasefire violations". By whom? That is left conveniently unsaid, so that a cheap equal-equal can be done.

The media messaging is being orchestrated by the office of the PMO. And as before (during the beheadings), Praveen Swami is colluding with the powers-that-be to project a certain kind of message. B@stards

member_23455
BRFite
Posts: 602
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby member_23455 » 23 Aug 2013 07:43

rohitvats wrote:The b@stard has used only couple of lines of data points and weaved a whole unrelated article around it - article meant to do an 'equal=equal' between IA and PA and give some breathing space to UPA. He is proving to be an useful idiot to peddle government line by being fed particular data points.


But those are a couple of data points that are now in the public domain nevertheless. And in the CNN-IBN report that Swamy also filed, Mandeep Bajwa connects the dots...if they needed connecting in the first place.

Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2190
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Prem Kumar » 23 Aug 2013 08:06

It is interesting to note that Firspost has stopped the Comments section for the Praveen Swami article. It seems like they dont want their half-truths called out


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: IndraD and 55 guests