Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

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Viv S
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Viv S » 04 Apr 2015 22:28

Kartik wrote:That's where airframe rotation comes into the picture. Use those newer airframes more and rotate the oldest airframes with max hours on them into storage. There is no reason to believe that the Mirages cannot last 15-20 years as long as spares support is available.

Look, the avionics on the Mirage-2000I/TI are going to be good, adequate to tackle a bulk of the missions they will be tasked with. Engines can be used so long as spares are available and overhaul capabilities exist. But yes, I'm reasonably sure that when they say that the Mirages will be used for another 15-20 years, the IAF, HAL, Dassault and Snecma would have worked out a solution to keeping the M-53 engines well supported till thr fleet remains in service.


That'll be a hard thing to achieve with fresh airframes comprising only 20% of the fleet. Here's a back-of-the-envelope calculation of what it would imply.

1. The aircraft has a airframe fatigue life of 6,000 hrs, expended over 40 years at the rate of 150 hrs annually.

2. The 40 older units having flown for three decades will have about 1,500 hrs remaining or about 10 years @ 150 hrs/yr.

3. The 10 newer units having flown for just one decade will have 4,500 hrs remaining.

4. The fleet needs to generate a cumulative 7,500 hrs annually for pilot training. An average of 150 hrs/yr per aircraft (should ideally be more).

5. Assume the older units fly 100 hrs/yr to allow them to be operational for the next 15 years (i.e. upto 2030). That equates to 40 units flying 4,000 hrs annually.

6. That would require the remaining 10 units to fly a whopping 350 hrs per year to generate the balance 3,500 hrs required. That would also exhaust their airframe life in 13 years or by around 2028.

Even assuming each aircraft spends 1-2 years grounded while being upgraded, flogging it past 2030 doesn't appear to be doable. Not unless the airframe has gone through a SLEP to take it upto 8,000 hrs, something that hasn't been reported. Some reports explicitly state that its not a part of the upgrade contract.

The takeaway as I see it is two-fold. One, we desperately need more Tejas Mk1s with the rotation possibility affecting Mirage fleet's operation availability. For most missions its as good (if not better) than the Mirage. Two, the three Mirage squadrons may need to be folded into two squadrons to reduce the pilot-to-aircraft ratio in order to keep flight training at acceptable levels. Alternatively (if not preferably, the fleet needs to be supplemented with surplus French/Emirati/Qatari Mirages.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Cain Marko » 04 Apr 2015 23:10

Viv S wrote:The takeaway as I see it is two-fold. One, we desperately need more Tejas Mk1s with the rotation possibility affecting Mirage fleet's operation availability. For most missions its as good (if not better) than the Mirage. Two, the three Mirage squadrons may need to be folded into two squadrons to reduce the pilot-to-aircraft ratio in order to keep flight training at acceptable levels. Alternatively (if not preferably, the fleet needs to be supplemented with surplus French/Emirati/Qatari Mirages.


Agree with the need for more Tejas Mk1, but can you clarify the bit about how the Tejas would be = or > than M2k for most missions, esp. with the upgraded versions? One area of course would be cost of operations, and for short ranged missions, they would be fine. But the M2K iirc, can carry a LOT more than the Tejas (in terms of payload weight and hardpoints) and should also have more powerful sensors?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Viv S » 05 Apr 2015 00:02

Cain Marko wrote:Agree with the need for more Tejas Mk1, but can you clarify the bit about how the Tejas would be = or > than M2k for most missions, esp. with the upgraded versions? One area of course would be cost of operations, and for short ranged missions, they would be fine. But the M2K iirc, can carry a LOT more than the Tejas (in terms of payload weight and hardpoints) and should also have more powerful sensors?


The range is very adequate for the majority of missions that both aircraft will be tasked with (high threat missions will be taken over by the Su-30MKI and others). The Tejas at FOC will be equipped with tandem pylons taking the total hardpoints to nine (plus one more for an LDP/jamming pod). Its equipped with a MAWS and will field better weaponry for both BVR & WVR combat; the Astra Mk2 will outrange the MICA-EM, while the Python-5 outperforms the MICA-IR. It'll also have a smaller RCS and visual signature.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Cain Marko » 05 Apr 2015 23:42

Tandem hps on the Mk1? Is this confirmed? Astra Mk1 is nowhere close to FOC, mk2 will probably be available for Tejas mk2 wonlee. For now, derby, Astra mk1 is in the same ball park as Mica and the IIR variant allows the M2k longer range than the Python. But yes, overall you have summed it up - the difference is marginal especially for shorter ranged missions. Deep strike though might be better left to the M2k.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vivek_ahuja » 06 Apr 2015 02:51

New performance analysis article up on my blog: 8)

Image

Aerial-refueling aircraft in the Indian context: a capability review

This one looks at the various tankers available to India and how the A-330 compares with all of them as well as the IL-78MKI in Indian service.

As always, feedback is welcome. :)

P.S.: Can someone with good photoshop skills help this abdul make some good info-grams for his blog articles?

-Vivek

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby ldev » 06 Apr 2015 05:35

I don't know if this video was ever posted before. It's a great video produced by IndianNavy PR on the Mig 29K. The takeoff at dusk with full afterburner at about the 2.30 mark is just great!!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Cain Marko » 06 Apr 2015 07:17

vivek_ahuja wrote:New performance analysis article up on my blog: 8)

Image

Aerial-refueling aircraft in the Indian context: a capability review

This one looks at the various tankers available to India and how the A-330 compares with all of them as well as the IL-78MKI in Indian service.

As always, feedback is welcome. :)

P.S.: Can someone with good photoshop skills help this abdul make some good info-grams for his blog articles?

-Vivek


Vivek,

Were you using the specs for the new IL476 or the older tanker variant IL76MD? Dunno if it makes a difference, but I'd assume that the MRTT would be based on the newer variant. This is what I found @ DID 'bout the 476:

Compared to previous IL-76 aircraft, the IL-476 reportedly offers an 18% boost to range, a 12% improvement in fuel consumption, better performance in hot temperatures and high altitudes, and a 10.6% improvement in cargo load. It also reportedly complies with international noise and emission standards, which affects the routes it can be certified to fly.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 06 Apr 2015 12:45


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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Aditya_V » 06 Apr 2015 14:58

IAF fighter plane crashes near UP-MP border in Kalda village of Chitrakoot district (UP), pilot ejects safely

Any idea what type of aircraft this was, to unknowledgable eye looks like a Mig-21, aircraft number TU645

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby dinesh_kimar » 06 Apr 2015 18:25

^ Vivek Saar, you must do a performance analysis of Su 30 MKI v/s Rafale v/s Tejas Mk 1. IMHO, it will answer a lot of unanswered questions.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_28911 » 06 Apr 2015 18:29

Aditya_V wrote:IAF fighter plane crashes near UP-MP border in Kalda village of Chitrakoot district (UP), pilot ejects safely

Any idea what type of aircraft this was, to unknowledgable eye looks like a Mig-21, aircraft number TU645


False news.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby JTull » 06 Apr 2015 18:48

Looks to me like a news plant and TOI was the first one to get caught in it (Tarmak's twitter post). Clear example of lack of editorial oversight.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Aditya G » 06 Apr 2015 22:49

vivek_ahuja wrote:This one looks at the various tankers available to India and how the A-330 compares with all of them as well as the IL-78MKI in Indian service.


Thanks Vivek. I would love to know how these aircraft would fare in your model:

1. KC-130J
2. Boeing 767 MMTT

However, the differences between the two aircraft become more visible at very long endurance and ranges. For short-range and short-endurance refueling operations, the two aircraft perform almost identically. This allows the Airbus aircraft to permit long-range expeditionary operations for the Indian Air Force wherein carriage of troops, cargo and fuel can be easily interchanged.

Your analysis clearly shows that A330 MRTT offers a greater capability, which is further corroborated by IAF's selection of the type.

Question is, do we need the additional capability? In the Indo-Pak context, I imagine the tanker to serve a role of extending on station time of medium fighters such as MiG-29 and Mirage-2000. The aircraft will probably orbit over Ambala despatching fully laden aircraft on long sorties. In Indo-China scenario, the aircraft will probably be retained within Indian airspace as well.

IL-78's case is spoilt mostly by its poor servicability and other maintenance issues.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Sid » 06 Apr 2015 23:11

Aditya G wrote:.....................................
Question is, do we need the additional capability? In the Indo-Pak context, I imagine the tanker to serve a role of extending on station time of medium fighters such as MiG-29 and Mirage-2000. The aircraft will probably orbit over Ambala despatching fully laden aircraft on long sorties. In Indo-China scenario, the aircraft will probably be retained within Indian airspace as well.

IL-78's case is spoilt mostly by its poor servicability and other maintenance issues.


India's policies are no longer Pak or China specific. Hence this opposing force do not dictate how we model our armed forces. We are also past the tit for tat arms purchases (mostly because they have exhausted their purchasing power).

For example think of our force deployment in south China sea in support of Vietnam. If we have to supply emergency military equipment with fighter escort then such capabilities will be required.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Cybaru » 06 Apr 2015 23:34

sid,

What are india's policies?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Cosmo_R » 06 Apr 2015 23:52

Cybaru wrote:sid,

What are india's policies?


Full frontal ambiguity. Nothing's off the table or on it. In fact some question the existence of a table.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby VibhavS » 07 Apr 2015 00:04

Maybe this quote from Strategy Pages sum up India's Position on the matter:

"We have no position on that issue. In fact, your position IS our position. Could you tell us what our position is?"

Link: http://www.strategypage.com/humor/artic ... 471421.asp

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Shalav » 07 Apr 2015 00:19

Aditya_V wrote:IAF fighter plane crashes near UP-MP border in Kalda village of Chitrakoot district (UP), pilot ejects safely

Any idea what type of aircraft this was, to unknowledgable eye looks like a Mig-21, aircraft number TU645


The tail leading edge is is kinked like the MiG27, the MiG21 has a straight leading edge.
The air-brakes have twin actuators like the MiG 27, the MiG 21 has single actuators IIRC.
The trim tab is like the MiG27
The tail and parachute assembly overhang the nozzle like a MiG27

Also here is a months older image of purportedly the the same crash site with the entire tail and elevators visible.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahome/in ... jarat.html

There is no doubt that the eenadu image is a Mig27 - they simply used an older Mig27 crash image in the eenadu story!

Ironically the Daily mail article labels this a Mig21 - though it may actually be a MiG 27 crashed in Rajasthan, and mentioned in the DM article! So full confusion with images only sirji! :roll: :eek:

So right now we don't know which aircraft crashed yesterday.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Cosmo_R » 07 Apr 2015 01:34

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 34593.aspx

The fighter plane that never really crashed

In their hurry to break news, several TV channels on Monday ran stories about a fighter plane crashing near Chitrakoot in Uttar Pradesh. Only, no such crash took place.

The channels even beamed images of wreckage, causing some nervous moments in the Air Force.

Even as official spokespersons denied that any fighter jet had crashed, the news spread like wildfire. It later turned out that some channels were showing file footage of a MiG-27 crash without verifying the news with official authorities.

Finally, defence ministry spokesperson Sitanshu Kar set the record straight with this tweet: “There has been no air crash of any IAF fighter jet today. A MiG-27 with the frame number TU 645 had crashed in Uttarlai on 27 Jan 2015.”

Some reports even suggested that a TU 645 chopper had crashed.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Kartik » 07 Apr 2015 13:39

Viv S wrote:That'll be a hard thing to achieve with fresh airframes comprising only 20% of the fleet. Here's a back-of-the-envelope calculation of what it would imply.

1. The aircraft has a airframe fatigue life of 6,000 hrs, expended over 40 years at the rate of 150 hrs annually.

2. The 40 older units having flown for three decades will have about 1,500 hrs remaining or about 10 years @ 150 hrs/yr.

3. The 10 newer units having flown for just one decade will have 4,500 hrs remaining.

4. The fleet needs to generate a cumulative 7,500 hrs annually for pilot training. An average of 150 hrs/yr per aircraft (should ideally be more).

5. Assume the older units fly 100 hrs/yr to allow them to be operational for the next 15 years (i.e. upto 2030). That equates to 40 units flying 4,000 hrs annually.

6. That would require the remaining 10 units to fly a whopping 350 hrs per year to generate the balance 3,500 hrs required. That would also exhaust their airframe life in 13 years or by around 2028.

Even assuming each aircraft spends 1-2 years grounded while being upgraded, flogging it past 2030 doesn't appear to be doable. Not unless the airframe has gone through a SLEP to take it upto 8,000 hrs, something that hasn't been reported. Some reports explicitly state that its not a part of the upgrade contract.

The takeaway as I see it is two-fold. One, we desperately need more Tejas Mk1s with the rotation possibility affecting Mirage fleet's operation availability. For most missions its as good (if not better) than the Mirage. Two, the three Mirage squadrons may need to be folded into two squadrons to reduce the pilot-to-aircraft ratio in order to keep flight training at acceptable levels. Alternatively (if not preferably, the fleet needs to be supplemented with surplus French/Emirati/Qatari Mirages.


I had posted earlier an article by George Mader, where he talks to HAL technicians and they mention how the Mirage airframe is extremely robust..no cracks noticed on any airframe that has come in for overhaul..and we're talking about airframes that must have been in service for 25 years or so. Even in French AF service, so far no fatigue issues, no having to replace bulkheads, spars, longerons, skins, nothing so far.

In general, there is no hard and fast rule that when you reach the designed service life hours, the airplane has to be retired, if the airframe can sustain further flight hours. Fatigue analysis would determine which structures need to be replaced in the event that they are used beyond their intended design lives.

I'm pretty sure that Dassault had already carried out fatigue testing and analyses for the Mirage, given that the French AF had revealed a while ago that it was going to use their Mirage-2000-5s (which were basically upgraded late build Mirage-2000C fighters with RDI radars) for quite a bit longer.

And considering that the Mirage-2000's design service life is actually 7500 hours and not 6000 hours, even the oldest Mirages will have adequate service life to go on for another 20 years.

- If you assume that the oldest Mirages in the IAF have used up 4500 hours of service life, that would leave them with another 2500 hours. Assume 150 hours per year for these fighters and you get 16.66 years more of service life for the oldest Mirages in the IAF. Assuming that 40 of the IAF's Mirages are these older jets, that gives me 40*2500 =1,00,000 hours left

-The 10 attrition replacement Mirages ones would have more than 4500 hours left over for each airframe, having used up only around some 2500 hours..that gives me 10*4500 =45,000 hours left

-Cumulatively, that gives me 1,45,000 hours on my Mirage fleet left

-Assuming a fleet of 50 Mirages, each flying 150 hours per year gives 7500 hours per year flight time required.

-1,45,000/7500 hours gives me a good 19.33 or ~20 years of service left with the Mirages..that is till 2035.

This isn't even taking into account the possibility of fatigue analyses and testing revealing that the Mirage fleet could get an extension of x number of years without actually having to undergo a SLEP.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Philip » 08 Apr 2015 12:00

Tx Vivek on that informative analysis.The IL-78s previous performance/support has been because it was earlier built in Uzbekistan and support after the fall of the USSR was poor.The new IL-76s are being manufactured completely in Russia,are much improved in performance,etc. as pointed out. As transports I would opt for them,as they are also much cheaper than C-17s (now out of production too) but if the A-330s are better suited for the tanker role than new IL-76 tanker versions, so be it. The added troop transport role is frankly small beer, as during a crisis,the tanker role would be the key priority and civil aircraft can/are always used to augment mil transports.The cost factor must also be studied and numbers required.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 08 Apr 2015 12:07

>>Some reports explicitly state that its not a part of the upgrade contract.

actually it states the reverse depending on interpretation.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Philip » 08 Apr 2015 12:23

For academic reasons,in case the R deal as it stands is dumped,has any study been made out of available M-2Ks in service abroad worth picking up and upgrading? What would the approx. cost be and would it be worthwhile doing this instead of acquiring new aircraft on option? What was the offer by the French of immediate transfers of Rafales from their inventory too? Would two sqds of bought out Rafales at original deal price be worth it instead of the expensive TOT offer?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Viv S » 08 Apr 2015 16:17

Cain Marko wrote:Tandem hps on the Mk1? Is this confirmed?

"We will integrate tandom pylons to be able to carry more number of weapons. That is one of the FOC tasks." - Gp. Capt. Suneet Krishna.

Astra Mk1 is nowhere close to FOC, mk2 will probably be available for Tejas mk2 wonlee. For now, derby, Astra mk1 is in the same ball park as Mica and the IIR variant allows the M2k longer range than the Python.

A full spec Astra Mk1 has been in testing since January and user trials will start next year. Given that the Mk2 is a follow-on project, it should be in service by 2020. If you consider the three year lead time involve in building a fighter, a Tejas Mk1 ordered next year should most definitely be equipped with the improved (R-77 class) Astra.

How effective the MICA-IR is at BVR ranges is debatable but its primary function still remains dogfighting (coupled with the Top Sight helmet). And the Python-5 is far better as a HOBS weapon.

But yes, overall you have summed it up - the difference is marginal especially for shorter ranged missions. Deep strike though might be better left to the M2k.

With 270 two pilot Su-30MKIs in the fleet (possibly more), the Mirage 2000 isn't really needed for long endurance missions. Its more likely to be used for the same bread and butter roles as the Tejas; CAP, interception, CAS, BAI.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vivek_ahuja » 08 Apr 2015 20:16

Cain Marko wrote:
vivek_ahuja wrote:Aerial-refueling aircraft in the Indian context: a capability review

This one looks at the various tankers available to India and how the A-330 compares with all of them as well as the IL-78MKI in Indian service.


Vivek,

Were you using the specs for the new IL476 or the older tanker variant IL76MD? Dunno if it makes a difference, but I'd assume that the MRTT would be based on the newer variant. This is what I found @ DID 'bout the 476:

Compared to previous IL-76 aircraft, the IL-476 reportedly offers an 18% boost to range, a 12% improvement in fuel consumption, better performance in hot temperatures and high altitudes, and a 10.6% improvement in cargo load. It also reportedly complies with international noise and emission standards, which affects the routes it can be certified to fly.


Cain Marko,

I used the IL-78MKI numbers, such as they are today. I am not aware of any news that suggested that the IL-476 will be converted to a tanker. Has that been confirmed?

-Vivek

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vivek_ahuja » 08 Apr 2015 20:19

New performance analysis article up on my blog: 8)

Image

A capability review of the Chinese aerial-refueling tanker fleet

This one looks at the performance of the Chinese H-6U tankers versus the IL-78MKI in Indian service.

As always, feedback is welcome. :)

-Vivek

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 08 Apr 2015 21:34

Nice! Could you also include the new engined H6K in your analysis? I doubt it would significantly close the gap?

Also any update on the LCA range figures? I recall you sort of left that midway..

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 10 Apr 2015 07:51

Air Chief Marshal Moolgavkar passed into history yesterday at Pune
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Perso ... avkar.html

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Cain Marko » 10 Apr 2015 08:37

vivek_ahuja wrote:Cain Marko,

I used the IL-78MKI numbers, such as they are today. I am not aware of any news that suggested that the IL-476 will be converted to a tanker. Has that been confirmed?

-Vivek


It seems a tanker version might be on the cards for the VVS in the future - that is all I could pick up from a Janes article.
http://www.janes.com/article/47749/russ ... r-aircraft

Russian fora and reports suggest a timeline of around 2018 for the "IL 478" tanker variant, no specs though. There was a suggestion somewhere that China might be interested in these..

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vivek_ahuja » 12 Apr 2015 06:49

Karan M wrote:Nice! Could you also include the new engined H6K in your analysis? I doubt it would significantly close the gap?


So I didn't add the H-6K in there because the performance benefits from adding 1970s era IL-76 engines on a 1950 era bomber masquerading as an upgrade to a 21st century "tanker" was a bit too much even for me! :mrgreen: :rotfl:

On a serious note, however: the performance improvement is noticeable. I will do that as part of a different article on the H-6 cruise-missile-carrier program.

Karan M wrote:Also any update on the LCA range figures? I recall you sort of left that midway..


8) Here you go:

New performance analysis article up on my blog:

Image

A preliminary performance review of the Indian Light Combat Aircraft

This one looks at the performance of our very own LCA. Finally got time to finish this article sitting on my desktop in word document format for last few years! :oops:

-Vivek

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Kartik » 13 Apr 2015 15:46

Great work Vivek! Just one piece of info, could you please add credits to Robban? He was the Swede who came up with those 3 view diagrams of the Tejas Mk1.

And on to another piece of news..Boeing has now extended, for the 9th time (!) the validity of its price for 22 Apaches and 15 Chinooks..and they will extend it no more once this one expires in another 3 months time. From a supplier's pov, this is very difficult to do..to be able to stick to a price point that was first calculated in 2013, for a deal that actually gets signed in 2015..

Boeing extends deadline for Indian Chinooks and Apaches again

India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) secured a commitment from Boeing on 1 April to extend for another three months its offer of 22 AH-64E Apache and 15 CH-47F Chinook helicopters for the Indian Air Force (IAF) at a price negotiated in late 2013, say industry sources.

This is apparently the ninth occasion Boeing has met MoD requests to keep the deal available at this price.


Both Boeing and the MoD declined to comment on the issue, but industry sources told IHS Jane's that Boeing is believed to have informed IAF it would not agree to any further extension of the original pricing of both helicopter types.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 13 Apr 2015 15:49

time for another emergency deal...and then the next..and the next...until no money is left to fund domestic projects.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Surya » 13 Apr 2015 17:47

yea we will be sooper power this way

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Austin » 14 Apr 2015 13:14

Singha wrote:time for another emergency deal...and then the next..and the next...until no money is left to fund domestic projects.


Yes some what true , Most certainly a siginificant part of IAF CAPEX will be spent for servicing the new deals in the pipeline and the one we did in past .......I doubt the IAF would have money to buy new imported stuff unless GOI drastically increase its capex budget.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 14 Apr 2015 13:47

Found on stratpost 2012. Is the jag re engine deal ongoing?

The Indian Air Force (IAF) issued the Request for Proposal (RFP) for the replacement of the engines of it’s fleet of some 125 Jaguar aircraft to Honeywell on Monday. The much-delayed RFP was issued after the withdrawal of Rolls Royce from the race for the contract in February, 2011.

The contract is to be executed in two phases. In the first phase, that of design and development, Honeywell will be required to conduct a trial modification of two Jaguar aircraft with its F-125IN engines, which is expected to be completed by 2015-2016.

The engines of the rest of the aircraft will be replaced by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), which is the manufacturer of the aircraft, under transfer of technology from Honeywell, for which there will be back-to-back contracts between the two. HAL will be the lead integrator responsible for marrying the new engines with the aircraft.

The engine replacement of all the aircraft is expected to be completed by 2023. The total order will be for 270 engines, to cater for all the twin-engine aircraft and spares. While the value of the order is not known, it was estimated to be worth around USD 700 million in 2011.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 15 Apr 2015 07:26

Here are some predictions.

There is zero chance of any AMCA coming online until 2035. India. Russia, for payment, will send us watered down, not fully ready IOC-0.5 to 1.0 level PAKFA within 5 years. But working PAKFA will not take less than 10-15 years. AMCA and PAKFA are long term plans. DRDO, ADA, HAL need to get off their asses yesterday and work on AMCA and the government needs to put is money where its mouth is and fund the frigging program

LCA, hopefully will come

Rafale might come as assembly under licence in India by private players with a medium sized role for HAL where they already have infrastructure for Rafale type stuff. Totally new production lines for Rafale will only come as offsets in private companies. I would be quite happy to see that happen. Even if it is Ambani

DexterM
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby DexterM » 15 Apr 2015 08:49

Shiv saar, which private player has the ability to perform system integration? Only an Indian arm of say a Dassault (with a JV only to make sure their risk exposure is reduced). They could technically set up one arm for the AMCA right now. It should be easier to offer the current Tejas production line as an incentive, but not one of the private players could assemble, let alone manage manufacturing. It is not HAL and ADA, but MOD that needs to get off its ass and run its own show. All of these players are their babies.

They desperately need to set up another design bureau to compete with ADA and to provide better oversight on the projects currently in the pipeline. MOD and MOF need to incentivize private players to participate in the AMCA production program. Parrikar said as much, but the program selection will make or break India(n) abilities to design and manufacture combat aircraft.

shiv
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 15 Apr 2015 08:56

DexterM wrote:Shiv saar, which private player has the ability to perform system integration?

None. HAL will definitely get something if Rafale comes as screwdriver+paint licence manufacture. But any components that need investment in a new manufacturing line - eg composite wing/other components should be set up in private industry.

HAL has its hands too full, They are even going for engine design now. I wish them luck and looking at that model I have a hunch that HAL will succeed where GTRE failed. But our country cannot go forward depending only on mega PSUs.

Austin
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Austin » 16 Apr 2015 10:20

India's Jaguar upgrade hits snag over engine selection

The upgrade of the Indian Air Force's (IAF's) SEPECAT Jaguar fleet by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), announced in 2010, is likely to be delayed beyond the stipulated 2017-18 deadline, official sources said.

The IAF plans to modify 123 licence-built Jaguars by fitting them with more powerful Honeywell F-125IN turbofan engines and the locally designed Display Attack Ranging Intertial Navigation-III (DARIN-III) avionics suite.

The retrofit includes equipping the IS/IM/IB versions of the twin-engine Jaguars, inducted into IAF service from 1980 onwards, with electronic warfare (EW) suites that incorporate the locally designed Tarang radar warning receiver (RWR), autopilot capability, and improved glass cockpits and head-up display units.

Philip
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Philip » 16 Apr 2015 13:10

Approved in 2010,still not finalized in 2015 for a 1960/70 fighter! Great work MOD.whoever is responsible.For two air shows now we've been told that the Honeywell engine,etc. was selected.I remember the EJ engine with a TVC offered for both Jag and LCA MK-2 at that time. In the last 5 years,at least a few prototypes could've been built.At this rate it will be 2020 when we will have our glorious upgraded 1960/70's 50 yr. old design still flying with us.The IAF will have the world's best antique value aircraft in service,like Cuba's pre-revolution American cars!


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