Artillery: News & Discussion

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 30 Jan 2014 15:26

vic wrote:130mm Chassis was always meant to be used both with 130mm and 152mm/52 Caliber, so it is easily usable with 155/45 and perhaps also with 155/52

Where did you get this from?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 30 Jan 2014 17:22

The wiki m 46 page lists this as m 47 which used the same carriage and had 152 mm bore diameter.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Jan 2014 19:35

BHEL has also thrown its hat in the ring and claims it will do a better job than OFB. with power sector in a congi induced medical coma they are looking for addl work.

LakshO · Post by **LakshO** » 31 Jan 2014 19:35

Any news on the Tata artillery gun? These guns were claiming a better range (50km+?). Would really love to hear what the army says after testing these guns (range, reliability of guns & shells, ease of use, ease of maintenance etc) in all weather conditions (Siachen/Sikkim, Rajasthan, southern India etc).

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 31 Jan 2014 19:45

any update on Nestle's Maggi Artillery System !!

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 31 Jan 2014 19:51

LakshO wrote:Any news ......

Laksh ji in your Location: hindi spelling of Bhaarat Varsham are wrong, they read 'Bhartaa Varshaam'

Please copy paste from here and correct them:

भारत वर्षम

LakshO · Post by **LakshO** » 01 Feb 2014 06:22

Dhananjay wrote:
LakshO wrote:Any news ......
Laksh ji in your Location: hindi spelling of Bhaarat Varsham are wrong, they read 'Bhartaa Varshaam'
Please copy paste from here and correct them:
भारत वर्षम

Dhananjay, thanks for pointing that out! Corrected it

manjgu wrote:any update on Nestle's Maggi Artillery System !!

Was that in response to my query on Tata artillery gun? If Nestle has an artillery gun, I prefer the army test that too!

Though, I prefer the army inducts a desi one. If Indian companies like Tatas, L&T, M&M, are not encouraged to try/build new hardware, how can we indigenize?

Can we please remember that no artillery gun was inducted into the army since Bofors in mid 1980s?

So, if a local manufacturer has come forward with its wares, I would like to jump at that opportunity.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 01 Feb 2014 10:16

LakshO wrote:... If Indian companies like Tatas, L&T, M&M, are not encouraged to try/build new hardware, how can we indigenize?

AFAIK neither the Tatas, L&T or M&M are building Desi guns. The only ones who are trying to design/build desi ones are OFB/DRDO and Bharat Forge.

vic · Post by **vic** » 01 Feb 2014 11:25

Re Rohitvats

DRDO 155/52 caliber howitzer is a completely different animal compared to Dhanush. Say, it is F-22 vs LCA. Therefore, we have to order and produce OFB Dhaush till DRDO howitzer is fully tested and production line is FIRMLY established. Out of requirement of 1600 towed howitzers, even if we have 600 howt of 155/45 then it may not be a big difference in capability. It would be like ordering Akash missile while LRSAM is being tested.

Hari Sud · Post by **Hari Sud** » 01 Feb 2014 11:46

Indian Army should be less nit-picking and less obstinate and read less of the glossy foreign brochures.

They are well advised to take whatever can be produced locally.

If Dhanush is capable of firing a projectile farther than 22 km, then Indian Army is well advised to take it as opposed to nothing at all.

In last 25 years the artillery purchase is stuck in corruption and bureaucratic muddle, all organized by the A K Antony, who would like to see whistle clean deal and army who is stuck in the past to take the very best or nothing at all. The forgoing has resulted in no longe range artillery because half the Bofor guns are unserviceable.

Let the local business houses independently deal with the outside vendors like Denel or Sigapore based artillery manufacturer and use their business acumen and high grade artillery to produce an acceptable piece. That will take 3-5 years. In the mean time locally produced Dhanush should do.

What is wrong with UPA government that FDI in military deals is stuck at such a low rate that no foreign vendor is prepared to organize production of military hardware in India. Shame on you A k Anthony that in last eight years you could not alter that policy and still looking for squeaky clean foreign deals. Shape up UPA. If a war is fought this or next year, India would be short on vital military hardware.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Feb 2014 11:50

IA continues to live in a alternate dimension all its own.

will be brought back to reality when the PLA uses masses of "obselete" and "non cutting edge" 105mm and 122mm batteries to pound the living crap out of us and overwhelm us by sheer volume fire before unleashing their golf cart borne mobile units. Zhukov used 9000 artillery pieces in the assault across the Oder-vistula river line the day battle of berlin began(belarus shock army). Koniev used similar numbers further south(ukrainian shock army) and *even then* had a tough time dislogding defenders off strongpoints like the Seelow heights!! a undergunned army is like a one legged dog tackling a tiger. it will lose its head, tail and remaining leg quickly as the tiger dismantles it.

then it will back whining to Massa for a quick FMS deal on M109s from the boneyard and M777 from US army stocks.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 01 Feb 2014 13:03

Only thing that Indian manufacturers need to get the gun accepted by Indian Army is the ability to grease the palms of everyone involved in procurement in a discrete way.

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 01 Feb 2014 15:31

abhik wrote:
LakshO wrote:... If Indian companies like Tatas, L&T, M&M, are not encouraged to try/build new hardware, how can we indigenize?
AFAIK neither the Tatas, L&T or M&M are building Desi guns. The only ones who are trying to design/build desi ones are OFB/DRDO and Bharat Forge.

True, However even Bharat Forge has a tie-up with Elbit for its Arty systems, they did acquire the complete tooling and assembly line from a closed down Austrian Gun manufacturer IIRC. OFB gun would be a likely up-gunning of the existing Bofors FH77B into 39 and 45 Calibre.

Private set-ups have to also look at a risk exposure to invest in such R&D heavy contracts and it is unfair to expect them to do the same when MoD has not even taken out a paper on its Arty Procurement Plans. Net result, the only actual design would be from DRDO in X years.

The JVC will offer solutions in the artillery guns & mortars segment based on Elbit Systems’ cutting-edge technologically advanced products operationally used worldwide, such as the ATHOS 155/52 Towed Gun System, the ATMOS 155/52 Mounted Gun System and the upgraded 130 mm M46 Gun to a 155/45 Gun (KARAN).

Would love to see a Nexter-L&T 155mm Ceasar in Arty units in a mounted role.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Feb 2014 17:11

the austrian gun was the GHN45 voest alpine gun, a system that had used tech from gerard bull's root node G5, as did Norinco import tot from him as well.
it had lost to the FH77 in our howitzer contest despite some controversy which says it had actually won and olof palme and RG had some under the table "deal" to get the FH77 in.

being a 45cal, I am sure it was spat upon and kicked out, since its not TFTA 155/52.......bharat forge would actually have been a good choice to produce guns given their long forging and precision tools background...but I guess at some point they gave up hope and keeps quiet now.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 02 Feb 2014 08:57

Dhanush has not passed the trials yet, so it is still far from induction.

If it fails the trials, then the only way out would be to limit the competition to Desi private sector working with foreign collaborators, and keeping the OFB out of it.

Frankly, I don't think any new artillery guns can be bought for as long as the Congress is in power.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 02 Feb 2014 09:56

Let Bharat Forge, L&T, Tata compete for the artillery contract and slowly get rid of all these PSU's.

vic · Post by **vic** » 02 Feb 2014 10:06

All guns in the world have repeatedly failed army trials, so if Dhanush does not pass trials, it is not a new issue. The point is whether the capabilities offered by Dhanush are reasonable and adequate and will they offer capability enhancement compared to 105mm howitzer?

On side note, once you have technology base to make tank gun ie Arjun main gun then one has technology base to make any gun or howitzer what so ever as the Tank Main gun is pinnacle of technology and complexity in such weapons.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 06 Feb 2014 09:19

Apologies if it has been posted already. Copied it from Twitter. The indigenous version of Bofors artillery, which is 45 cal.
------------------------------
Adder later: Sanjaygaru, thanks for pointing out of my mistake, removed that sentence.

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 06 Feb 2014 09:23

here seems small type with name, read it as 'Dhanush', not Hanush.

D is written in red before H.

LakshO · Post by **LakshO** » 07 Feb 2014 05:42

abhik wrote:
LakshO wrote:... If Indian companies like Tatas, L&T, M&M, are not encouraged to try/build new hardware, how can we indigenize?
AFAIK neither the Tatas, L&T or M&M are building Desi guns. The only ones who are trying to design/build desi ones are OFB/DRDO and Bharat Forge.

I searched for Bharat Forge Austrian gun on Google and came up with the following links, slightly dated though.

Date: Mar. 2012; author: Ajai Shukla
Kalyani group artillery foray

Date: Dec. 2012; author: Sandeep Unnithan
Indigenous efforts towards artillery manufacture

Hopefully, one of them succeeds!

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 07 Feb 2014 07:23

Kalyani Group aims to become major artillery player.

Aiming to cash in on government's plan to enhance defence procurement from domestic sources, the Pune-based Kalyani Group is fast building capacity with the objective of becoming a major artillery player in a decade.

"Our aim is to become, in the next ten years, a major artillery house in the country and to that extent, we are also tying up with the technology partners," Group Chairman Baba Kalyani told PTI on the sidelines of Defexpo here.

The USD 2.5 billion Kalyani Group's flagship firm Bharat Forge is the world's largest forging firm with manufacturing facilities spread across India, Germany and Sweden. It is also a leading auto component manufacturer.

The group operates its defence business as a separate entity. It has inked joint venture with Israel's Elbit Systems for manufacturing modern gun systems and mine protected vehicles in the country. It has also signed a pact with SAAB of Sweden to provide air defence solutions.

"So, clearly we are building a defence business. Defence Ministry has said that it will give more and more work to the Indian industry and there is a drive towards indigenisation. There is a make and buy India programme. We only hope is that the implementation of the policy framework happens faster," he said.

Kalyani said the Group would use its strong platform of metallurgical knowledge, design and engineering capability and manufacturing prowess, to make the aim a reality.

"We are determined to scale up our contribution to the armed forces and play a vital role in the defence sector by providing technology-intensive weapon systems. The development of indigenously-built howitzer gun is a testimony to that," he said.

"Testing is with the government. We have requested the government to provide us the testing facility and I think they are looking at it very positively and I am sure some solution will emerge," he added.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 07 Feb 2014 07:43

Defexpo 2014: Nexter unveils Indian version of CAESAR.

Nexter Systems unveiled a new version of its CAESAR 155 mm mounted gun system at the Defexpo 2014 exhibition in New Delhi.

Nexter has teamed up with Indian companies Larsen & Toubro and Ashok Leyland Defence to offer the Indian Army a CAESAR system fitted to Ashok Leyland's 6x6 Super Stallion chassis.

The French company has teamed up with Indian companies Larsen & Toubro (L&T) and Ashok Leyland Defence to offer the Indian Army a CAESAR system fitted to Ashok Leyland's 6x6 Super Stallion chassis.

Larsen & Toubro, which signed a partnership deal with Nexter in March 2012, is leading the team and as prime contractor will absorb the transfer of technology from its French partner.

CAESAR is in service with French forces and has been sold to Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, and Thailand.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 07 Feb 2014 08:07

Meet the Indian ‘son’ of Bofors.

The son of a gun is named Dhanush. Defence minister A.K. Antony and his cohorts in the armed forces are looking at it longingly.

It burst last July in the Rajasthan desert while firing. Dhanush is a derivative of —you guessed it — the Bofors.

It is here at Defexpo 2014, the show billed as a window to the world’s largest arms bazaar.

Right here in the heart of Pragati Maidan, the Dhanush in olive green, its overlong barrel pointing skywards, is firing a slogan that Antony repeats like a mantra: be Indian, buy Indian. This, then, is the story of how a gun was “indigenised”.

Later this month, the gun — the one here at this exhibition — is to be transported to Sikkim. The winter trials will be held there. It will be checked for accuracy, range and rate of fire; for its traverse and elevation capabilities; for its shoot-and-scoot ability.

Sounds familiar? Yes, these were the words used to describe and justify the purchase of 410 Bofors FH77B02 guns in 1987. Now, as it was then, the Indian army is bereft of big guns.

Its “field artillery rationalisation programme” has gone haywire. For nearly three decades the army has not inducted a single big gun. The Bofors bought in 1987 are being cannibalised to keep the artillery going. The army says it cannot wage war without these cannons or howitzers.

The army has projected a need for five types of howitzers: towed, self-propelled, tracked, mounted and light. In all, it needs some 18,000 pieces of artillery guns to be comfortable with its war-waging potential.

Realising the urgency, Antony went to the Gun Carriage Factory (GCF) in Jabalpore, where the Indian gun is being made, in September.

“There was pressure on us to have some kind of opening ceremony for an indigenous programme though we were yet to be prepared,” says an Ordnance Development Centre officer on Antony’s visit. “So we organised this ceremony to inaugurate the 155mm bay.”

Antony cut the ribbon. The “155mm” bay in Jabalpore ordnance factory is the assembly line for the Dhanush. So, was the gun already made?

“No,” says the official. But he explains that, at the bay, they showed the components of the gun: the trailer, the carriage, the assembly, the barrel and the breech, the muzzle brake, the cradle and the saddle, the trunnions.

“We just took apart a Bofors for the minister,” the official explained, “and laid it out.”

He smirked: “He (Antony) wouldn’t know the difference between a 39 calibre and a 45 calibre.”

The original Bofors — the Dhanush ka baap, if you will — is a 155mm/39cal gun. The Dhanush is a 155mm/45cal.

The increased calibre means a longer barrel length for a longer range. The original Bofors had a maximum effective range of 27km in the plains. The Dhanush’s shell is claimed to top 35km.

The Dhanush is an improved version of the Bofors, says Tushar Tripathi, director of weapons systems at the Calcutta-headquartered Ordnance Factory Board.

The Jabalpore factory has so far manufactured six Dhanush guns. The fourth one burst during an internal trial in the Rajasthan desert last year.

Ahtesham Akhtar from GCF Jabalpore says the gun had already fired 250 rounds; so the barrel overheated. The sixth gun — on show here — is a further development.

It is ironic that India began organised manufacturing of guns more than 100 years ago. The Ichapore Rifle Factory near Calcutta was producing firearms even before WWI.

Yet, India’s armed forces are short of guns and its defence industrial complex is struggling to make them. It is an axiom of truth that whatever is aplenty at the Defexpo is in serious short supply.

The latest edition of the expo of the largest arms bazaar is seeing the showcasing of several big guns: by the Tatas, who have driven a Denel-derived, truck-mounted gun all the way from Bangalore; by Larsen and Toubro, which is exhibiting a version of the French-origin Caesar/Nexter; and, of course, by BAE Systems — to which Bofors AB now belongs — which has hauled its ultra-light M777 over here yet again.

Pragati Maidan is a bayou in which to have fun with a gun.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Feb 2014 10:23

X-Posted from the Def-Expo td.

http://www.asianmilitaryreview.com/defe ... un-system/

DEFEXPO 2014: BAE Systems to display howitzer and 127-mm 54-caliber naval gun system.

BAE Systems participation at the eighth edition of DefExpo, the country’s premiere Land, Naval and Security Systems exhibition taking place here from February 6 through 9, is anchored in a single mantra – our continued commitment to partner with the Government in its journey of military modernization through technology and capability sharing with the domestic defence industrial base.
Their showcase this year is a broad span of state-of-the-art capabilities in towed and self-propelled Artillery and its Fire Control Systems, Naval Gun Systems, Ammunitions, Military Communications Systems, Geospatial Exploitation Products, Wheeled and Light Armoured Vehicles, and Helmet Mounted Displays.

Leading our participation in this biennial show are John Brosnan, Managing Director, South East Asia & India and Mark Simpkins, Vice President and General Manager for India.

John Brosnan, Managing Director, South East Asia & India said, “DefExpo is a signature event for our Company and we are encouraged by the keen interest our displays receive. The platform is also significant in presenting us an excellent opportunity to progress discussions with partners for domestic co-development and co-production to fulfill our shared goal of indigenization.”

Center stage on our stand are the M777 ultra-light field howitzer and Mk45 Naval Gun system. We have been supporting discussions between the Governments of India and the United States for a potential Foreign Military Sale of this revolutionary howitzer that is highly portable by land, sea and air and features a minimal logistical footprint alongside maximum reliability. The Mk45 is the most compact 5-inch (127-mm) fully automated naval gun in the world with a successful and proven track record of service in the naval fleets of Australia, Denmark, Greece, New Zealand, Spain, Thailand and Turkey and is co-produced indigenously in South Korea and Japan.

Demonstrating the strength and expanse of our portfolio in artillery, the stand will have on display the Archer 155 mm FH 77 BW L52 self-propelled field howitzer that can operate autonomously in tandem with today’s command and control systems. Adding fire power will be the LEMUR Remotely-Controlled Weapon Systems (RCWS) and electro-optical sight for land and sea application. A wide range of munitions is on display including 120mm Tk HESH L31A7 and 120mm Tk Charge Propelling L3A2 amongst others.

The stand will have on display the Hawk 132 Advanced Jet Trainer, of which India is the largest operator with 123 aircraft ordered to date by the Indian Air Force (106) and the Indian Navy (17). The Indian Navy recently inducted the first batch of Hawk Advanced Jet Trainers, becoming the third naval operator of the Hawk along with the U.S. Navy and the Royal Navy. BAeHAL, the engineering and business solutions services Joint Venture with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, will also be present.

Also on-stand will be the new Q-Warrior™ helmet-mounted display (HMD) for the dismounted soldier and Q-Sight™ HMD for the new-age pilot, both providing mission-critical situational awareness. Adding muscle will be the Striker Helmet for both fixed- and rotary-wing platforms. The display of the RG32 LTV and RG34 exhibits underlines BAE Systems’ flagship capabilities and technology in Light Armoured Vehicles for potential partnerships with the Indian industry.

Expert demonstration of Geospatial Exploitation Products (GXP) will be another highlight of our display.

Headquartered in New Delhi, BAE Systems has a six-decade long history in India. The Company has worked closely with the Government to establish an indigenous production capability at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited for the Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer, which is in service with the Indian Air Force and the Indian Navy. In addition, the Company is developing a range of opportunities across the land, naval and the C4ISR sectors in collaboration with domestic industrial partners. The Company’s flagship Community Investment in Smile Foundation across eight rural and urban locations in seven states in India is commencing its second year of operations reaching primary education to 1,100 underprivileged children and delivering primary healthcare services to the doorsteps of over 20,000 underprivileged people in Bangalore.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Feb 2014 10:27

here we goto line1: again.

sigh.

kit · Post by **kit** » 07 Feb 2014 16:24

from a requirement of the french army compared to IA ..'In all, the French army plans to ultimately field 141 Caesars, 128 towed 120mm mortars, 186 Mistral missile launchers and 60 VAB wheeled vehicles armed with a 20mm dual-purpose gun. It also operates 24 Guided MLRS launchers, half of which will be retired by the end of this year. '..good idea of the massive IA requirements .. a veritable Christmas cake for global vendors !

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... llery.html

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 07 Feb 2014 18:23

Vipul wrote:....

Antony cut the ribbon. The “155mm” bay in Jabalpore ordnance factory is the assembly line for the Dhanush. So, was the gun already made?

“No,” says the official. But he explains that, at the bay, they showed the components of the gun: the trailer, the carriage, the assembly, the barrel and the breech, the muzzle brake, the cradle and the saddle, the trunnions.

“We just took apart a Bofors for the minister,” the official explained, “and laid it out.”

He smirked: “He (Antony) wouldn’t know the difference between a 39 calibre and a 45 calibre.”

.....

Somebody's head is gonna roll ...

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 09 Feb 2014 14:04

Did not see this posed earlier, Bharat Forge has displayed the their 155mm/52 cal towed artillery at the DefExpo. The link has pictures.
Defense Update: Bharat Forge Expands Artillery Systems Offering

Bharat 52 is a self-propelled variant of the 155mm/52Cal gun produced in India by Bharat Forge. The system uses self-propelling capability and automatic laying, enabling rapid ‘shoot and scoot’ even with towed guns. The self propelling system can move the cannon at a speed of up to 30 km/h, and provide sufficient mobility for change of positions. The system weighs 14 tons and has a maximum firing range of 41 km, with 3-5 rounds per minute rate of fire.

They have put a label which reads "Indigenously Designed, Developed and Manufactured 155/52 Gun System" with an Indian Flag in a photo frame placed on the gun. Super Like.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Feb 2014 20:05

it is derivative of the GC45 gun they obtained from austrian vendor, hence it is a proven design whose direct and indirect relatives are in service around the world including with Norinco. they have not only used it for a towed gun but also for the plz45 SP gun - pragmatic and product focussed as usual, rather than whining and lusting for bob(best of brochure) specs
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product4175.html
The PLL01 was based on the Austrian GHN-45, which itself was derived from the Canadian GC-45 howitzer designed by Dr Gerald Bull’s Space Research Corporation in the 1970s. The GC-45 combines a number of features to produce what is generally considered the best field artillery in the world. Its unique 155mm/45-calibre gun design has been adopted by a number of artillery systems around the world, including the famous South African G5 howitzer.

The PRC obtained the Austrian GHN-45 howitzer technology in the 1980s when it formed a temporary coalition with Western countries against the Soviet Union. The technology was used to develop the PRC’s own version of the 155mm/45-calibre howitzer known as W88. The howitzer was promoted to the export market under the designation WA021, and later adopted by the PLA under the designation PLL01. The weapon was also sometimes referred to as the W89 or Type 89. The PLL01/W88 design was also used on the PLZ45 self-propelled gun-howitzer system.
----
it would be dumb not to conclude our saga and start buying guns than order the N=N+1 round of summer and winter trials. this time they dont even to deal with foreign vendors so CYA is there.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 09 Feb 2014 21:12

^^^
If I'm not wrong those foreign trials are still ongoing, or at least were until some time ago. But what is interesting is that the 2 guns that we have now, the OFB Dhanush and BF Bharat-52, are both derivatives of the original contestants of the artillery tender 30 years ago, in which we chose the Bofors.

Hari Sud · Post by **Hari Sud** » 09 Feb 2014 21:22

Singha sir,

Do you not get the feelings that army is nit picking not only in purchase of field artillery but also almost everything including Arjun Tank, anti material rifles, assault rifles, soldier carried anti tank missiles and much more.

Either they are waiting for pie in the sky weapon or GSQR requirements are tailor made to one specific weapon and vendor. Those unending field trials are tailor made to reject everything else except the specific vendor they want. Realizing that the Vendor raises the price

In the middle of that the army starves itself of weaponry. Imagine a Kargil like unexpected war breaks out with China or Pakistan, then they can blame the politicians and bureaucracy. In fact the fault lies at home. It is Army and other services should share, not part of the blame but most of the blame. The GSQR system is at fault. Requirements are pie in the sky. The civilian bureaucracy sets itself after GSQR for paper work in a very comfortable style. Politicians come next by appropriating or not appropriating the money. Money is not always available. You have to spend money as it becomes available. If You overspend, then the nation goes thru bankruptcy. A number of nations have faced that in last ten years.

I cannot say what role corruption plays in all the above. We Indians are gossip minded bunch. Every gossip and hearsay becomes news to be commented by multitude of people in the print and electronic media and now the Internet. The Raffle deal suffered a one year delay when a member of parliament for no reason wrote to the Defence Minister that Raffle deal is suspected of bribery. His charge had to investigated and rejected. But a critical delay was suffered in the deal making. Now it is further delayed because at the end of the financial year, there are no funds left and the up coming elections are a road block also.

Everything in Indian procurement process is wrong and our Defence Minister of 6-7 years is unable to run it efficiently. It is known that he is honest but terribly inefficient. He is unable to manage increasing FDI in defence related joint ventures from under 30% to more reasonable 49%. It is pity that all honest persons in India are inefficient also.

We are over due for a new government and a new Defence Minister.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 09 Feb 2014 21:51

Hari, no point blaming the government when the forces cannot make the right decision - the Arjun and the LCA being two great examples of that. What is the need to buy 100s of T-90s? Where is the need for the Rafale? Billions are thrown away for inferior weapons or better brochures.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 10 Feb 2014 00:32

Saint Anthony's mystery:Run Deffered Ministry Not Defence Ministry.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 10 Feb 2014 02:22

Why is DRDO wasting time and resources developing 155mm/52cal when Kalyani already has a gun ready for trials?

IIRC, the Dhanush project was also announced by the OFB in a haste, to block the Tata gun that was getting ready for trials.

Why don't the DRDO/ OFB combine focus on perfecting and producing in large numbers the 155mm/39cal Bofors gun that they purchased, and sat on, the technology for 30 years ago?

The army needs artillery in numbers, and quickly. Riding on the single horse of DRDO/ OFB, it is not going to get there anytime fast.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Feb 2014 02:54

And what if the 52 cal Kalyani gun fails trials? What if IA insists it wants newer tech? Whats Plan B?
That Kalyani gun is some 20-30 years old design wise, scaled up or not.

The DRDO never purchased the Bofors. The OFB received partial design data/documentation for the Bofors 39 cal.

And the Dhanush program was kicked off by the OFB based on IA requirement. The Tata Gun was not ready for trials because its a Denel design and Denel was blacklisted. Supposedly, Tata has now bought out the TOT to circumvent this issue, though the blacklist also ended recently.

The IA BTW, does not want a 39 cal gun from OFB, it wants a 45 cal gun, which is what the Dhanush is. It wants 414 of them, and some 144 are indented for already.

Read the previous pages of discussion please before jumping in.

The IA requirement for guns is so huge and diverse, and IA habit of asking for the best + complex trials - that it will be a fair bit of time before any of these guns - Tata or Kalyani - can be ordered. The OFB Dhanush is hence the best bet for a quick induction based off a proven design which has worked in India, and which is why the IA is pushing for it as an interim solution.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 10 Feb 2014 04:23

Isn't a 39 cal in hand today worth a 45 cal in the bush?

If the OFB can just clone/ license produce the 39 cal gun the IA already uses, they can start filling the numbers, esp the numbers that have been whittled by attrition on the Bofors guns originally bought, while the 45 cal is still going through the trials.

JMHO

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 10 Feb 2014 04:33

If the Kalyani gun fails the trials, the Kalyanis will be asked to fix it until it passes the trials. They will do it because they want the business.

What is happening is that the Kalyani gun is not even being tried hile the DRDO is going on its development on a parallel path. A few years will pass before they allow trials for the Kalyani gun. When it passes, the DRDO will say we have a prototype ready and PSU should be preferred. So the Kalyanis will be asked to wait again until they lose interest and close their shop. Then DRDO will go through interminable trials and failures and in the end, the IA will make emergency imports at high costs.

Same old story. The private sector will not be allowed to come up, and the public sector will not deliver. And the armed forces will be left without heavy caliber artillery.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 10 Feb 2014 05:44

The Kalyani and Tata guns are based on proven designs and their chances of "failing in trials" are at least as good or bad as the OFB timepass science projects. So what if one of their barrels burst like the OFB 45? My feel is that the crooked system that runs the DPSU gravy train knows that Kalyani and Tata will blow OFB and the gravy train out of the water and they are doing everything possible to protect their turf, including co-opting as many crooked army guys in the chain as they can if necessary.

Kakkaji, you are correct. If you asked the army "do you want more 39 bofors?", you know what the answer will be--a loud YES. All this cr@p about "army doesn't want 39" is rubbish that is twisting the fact that the army would prefer the 45 and 52 because the Chinese and pakis have them and we need the added range. Is the army ditching the existing 39s?

It would be a piece of cake for OFB to churn those out (one would think) and give the army a couple of hundred a year but they did not and began a protracted conversion program for 45 and 52 instead just to prevent Kalyani and Tata from entering their turf. They knew that if they simply produced the 39, they would be tied up with it and be forced to cede the 45 and 52 space Kalyani and Tata. Note that in all of this, national security is merely an incidental annoyance. Any other country would have proudly fast tracked ANY home made gun that a private company took the trouble to produce but not India. This is the unimaginably traitorous state of affairs in India today, not that it should be a surprise.

Kalyani, Tata, M&M etc will have to wait for the system to be purged (with extreme prejudice I hope) in the near future.

Hari Sud · Post by **Hari Sud** » 10 Feb 2014 06:56

I thought that the Indian Army have a few odd apples who are crooked and derail the purchase to suit their own end. They are at the senior level. The senior level people do get transferred, retire or leave army. Also senior level appointments are only for two years, if not extended. Then in last 20 years, how come one after the other senior level command level have never changed their opinion about Indian designed or built hardware. There is something amiss here.

Indian Army hates DRDO, OFB etc. They have no confidence in them either at the development level or at the manufacture level. That opinion continues after induction in post sale and service (INSAS rifle is key example).

I believe Army wishes a free ride to the very best without caring much about the financial resources available or possibility of being starved of spare parts or ammunition if the deals go sour like the VVIP Helicopters today or ten years back Denel Anti Material Rifle debacle or Norway saying no to supply parts for the 155 shells for Bofor Guns some ten years back. Army generals do not wish to think long range. That is totally stupid. I think the Defence Ministry needs a better leader who could knock some sense into the big general's head or send them into early retirement and make an example of them if they do not listen. At the same time DRDO and OFB are overdue for reorganization or privatization.

I believe Victor above has given the perfect logic for OFB making a fool of itself by chasing 45 caliber gun mirage. Army will find some nit picking faults to delay or reject it. In fact OFB should turn out 39 caliber guns by dozens which the army will accept. That they can use to refurbish cannibalized 39 caliber Bofor guns and a few hundred more. Let the private sector like TATA and Kalyani chase 45 and 52 caliber, both towed and self propelled guns production.

I wish God grants my wish that there is a change of leadership at the center after the elections. Also a new more dynamic Defence Minister arrives at the helm. He knocks some sense into the generals who are out of control and the bureaucracy which is more like tortoise going around doing the important job at snails pace. Yes, retire all the babus who have been on the job in the defence ministry long.

srai · Post by **srai** » 10 Feb 2014 07:49

Kakkaji wrote:Isn't a 39 cal in hand today worth a 45 cal in the bush?

If the OFB can just clone/ license produce the 39 cal gun the IA already uses, they can start filling the numbers, esp the numbers that have been whittled by attrition on the Bofors guns originally bought, while the 45 cal is still going through the trials.

JMHO

You can't blame OFB/DRDO for IA/MoD not ordering 39 cal 155mm guns nor for not being allowed to R&D 155mm guns before. The user has to order it first isn't it? For over an decade and 4 rounds of trails, the IA has been in pursuit of an international gun. It is only recently that a path has been cleared for indigenous (or JV) solutions.