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Artillery Discussion Thread

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tsarkar
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby tsarkar » 19 Apr 2017 13:02

^^ Barrage balloons are still made at OF Kanpur, however, one will need many sq km of nets to protect an area.

The Israeli's developed aerostats using WW-2 vintage barrage balloons to lift aircraft derived radars.

We already have command guidance system in Rajendra. All we need is a maneuverable cheap interceptor with 5 km range like Tamir. Very much doable.

Indranil
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 19 Apr 2017 20:08

I agree. We should take up the design of indigenous sub-20-kg missile against aerial targets. Besides, the MANPADS requirement, we are now going to have hundreds of attack helis, armed UCAVs and armed HTT-40s. Therefore, we have a huge requirement for an A2A version as well.

And OT for this thread, we do need to develop a WVR A2A missile as well in the 80-100 kg category.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Cosmo_R » 19 Apr 2017 20:21

^^^"What I've tried to correct is the notion that IA/IAF/IN has the authority to procure (including trialling) wpns & eqpt. They DO NOT have any authority to procure ANY eqpt, they follow the orders from the relevant Jt Secy in this case JS & AM (Land Systems). If there is anyone ultimately responsible for delays then the buck should stop at that person's desk. I cannot find Adm. Joshi's post-resignation interview where he shared that he didn't have any authority to even reorder new batteries for Kilos, this was reorder and not new eqpt acquisition."

Of course they don't. When I made this obvious point one worthy on the forum accused me of being a 'troll'. The forces just take what they can get as soon as they can get it. They are neither paid to nor can they 'push for any specific item'. That is how convoluted our system is.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby srai » 19 Apr 2017 20:39

Cosmo_R wrote:^^^"What I've tried to correct is the notion that IA/IAF/IN has the authority to procure (including trialling) wpns & eqpt. They DO NOT have any authority to procure ANY eqpt, they follow the orders from the relevant Jt Secy in this case JS & AM (Land Systems). If there is anyone ultimately responsible for delays then the buck should stop at that person's desk. I cannot find Adm. Joshi's post-resignation interview where he shared that he didn't have any authority to even reorder new batteries for Kilos, this was reorder and not new eqpt acquisition."

Of course they don't. When I made this obvious point one worthy on the forum accused me of being a 'troll'. The forces just take what they can get as soon as they can get it. They are neither paid to nor can they 'push for any specific item'. That is how convoluted our system is.


The defence ministry now has more financial powers to buy weapon systems/platforms worth Rs 2,000 crore (~USD 300 million) without CCS approval. This should help alleviate the issues (spare parts, ammunition, missiles, guns, etc.) you have mentioned above.

PM Modi increases 'financial power' for Parrikar allowing him to purchase new weapon system
PM Modi enhanced defence minister Parrikar's financial muscle by four times
The Defence finances has increased from Rs 500 to Rs 2000
At least 60-70 per cent of defence deals will be cleared at ministerial level

Published: 11:16 +11:00, 10 February 2017

In a major step towards speeding up defence deals and urgently meeting critical requirements of the armed forces, PM Narendra Modi has enhanced defence minister Manohar Parrikar's financial muscle by four times, allowing him to buy weapon systems and platforms worth Rs 2,000 crore at his own discretion.

This is a huge jump from the existing fund of Rs 500 crore that was given to the defence minister under the UPA government.

...
The decision by the Prime Minister is going to significantly fast-track the speed of weapon acquisition as many defence deals can be completed at the level of the defence ministry and there would no need to take them to the Cabinet Committee on Security, the sources said.

Till now, all the defence deals worth over Rs 1,000 crore had to be cleared at the level of the CCS which is headed by the Prime Minister and includes the unions ministers for defence, home, finance and external affairs.

The Prime minister also cleared many other proposals related to the financial decision made by his ministers as he has given the defence minister and the finance minister the power to jointly clear defence acquisitions worth up to Rs 3,000 crores.

This would mean that at least 60-70 per cent of the deals related to the defence sector would be cleared at the ministerial level, the sources said.

The new financial rules will help the defence ministry give contracts for several weapon systems, especially for tank ammunition and small arms requirements, such as rifles and small range missiles, and also help cut down the time taken for getting clearance from the Cabinet Committee on Security.

'This is going to save at least a few months in the long-lasting defence acquisition process,' the sources said.

...

The step to increase financial powers of the ministers has been taken soon after the budget announcement in which the defence ministry was allocated Rs 6,000 crore for buying new weapon systems and platforms for the services.

The government instructions issued in this regard have made it clear that the new financial powers would be applicable only for capital acquisitions, which means only new weapon systems for the forces can be bought from it.


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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby RohitAM » 19 Apr 2017 23:10

Cosmo_R wrote:The forces just take what they can get as soon as they can get it. They are neither paid to nor can they 'push for any specific item'. That is how convoluted our system is.


This is OT for this thread, but in the case of Arjun vs. T-90, the IA definitely "pushed for a specific item" while creating continuous hurdles in the path of the other, and from the looks of it, continues to do so. However, I am definitely elated that this doesn't seem to be the case for artillery acquisitions, which is mostly going to be indigenous.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby dinesh_kimar » 19 Apr 2017 23:45

^Doc Sahib, after seeing your enthusiasm for AK 630, i started reading about it.
OFB Cossipore "makes" the AK 630. On paper. In reality, they dont know jack about the main systems - sights, turret, cupola, radar, loader, FCS, gun mount, etc.
Russia has given them ToT for part of the gun barrel tube, and for 3 kinds of ammo only. And, the CAG reports show that their localisation levels are at 48 % for these items. The OFB boys took 5 years to change over the line from the manual operation to a CNC one. And even then, utilisation was poor. CAG reports that the OFB boys love the manual line, as overtime can be justified with this. (Better to import direct from Russia than trust our people !)
The Indian Navy states that "AK 630 is a good system, but localisation is low." What they mean is navy budget is small, and AK 630 with large import content is expensive.
If we want to make the AK 630, it would be a big project, like Dhanush or Arjun.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby dinesh_kimar » 20 Apr 2017 00:08

Added later: Chinese version CIWS Type 730 system doesnt use many Russian parts (not because of IPR concerns, but access to know-how, and reverse engineering was difficult). They sourced radar, gun mounts and FCS tech from France and US suppliers, and integrated together.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 20 Apr 2017 03:51

dinesh_kimar wrote:^Doc Sahib, after seeing your enthusiasm for AK 630, i started reading about it.
OFB Cossipore "makes" the AK 630. On paper. In reality, they dont know jack about the main systems - sights, turret, cupola, radar, loader, FCS, gun mount, etc.
Russia has given them ToT for part of the gun barrel tube, and for 3 kinds of ammo only. And, the CAG reports show that their localisation levels are at 48 % for these items. The OFB boys took 5 years to change over the line from the manual operation to a CNC one. And even then, utilisation was poor. CAG reports that the OFB boys love the manual line, as overtime can be justified with this. (Better to import direct from Russia than trust our people !)
The Indian Navy states that "AK 630 is a good system, but localisation is low." What they mean is navy budget is small, and AK 630 with large import content is expensive.
If we want to make the AK 630, it would be a big project, like Dhanush or Arjun.



if you can give a link to the CAG report?

Also the 3 type of shells what type of fuzes they have?
Also what is the requirement for the IN? IOW how many units.

And would they support an indigenization program with local radar and FCS and a self destruct fuze to allow wider usage?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 20 Apr 2017 03:52

And for the experts the US Phalanx doesn't have the unexpended shell problem? Its 20mm if I recall. Much smaller space for the fuze.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby tsarkar » 20 Apr 2017 12:22

ramana wrote:And for the experts the US Phalanx doesn't have the unexpended shell problem? Its 20mm if I recall. Much smaller space for the fuze.


The full range of 20 mm Phalanx/Vulcan ammo is described here http://www.gd-ots.com/MCA_20mm_M50.html

The standard ammo is AP / HE without any fusing just like AK-630 rounds

For base defence in Iraq / Afghanistan, they just clear the field of fire area which is very easily done, and give a damn about civilian casualties.

There is a self destruct round recently developed. I believe its a time delay self destruct rather than fusing.

Coming to the original PoV of using AK-630 for land roles, the basic AO-18 cannon of AK-630 is used in Tunguska and Pantsyr.

Indian bases don't face C-RAM attacks yet.

Threats like Hatf-1/2/3 Abdali, Nasr & Babur are more than adequately countered by MR-SAM/Akash/Spyder/ELta-2084/Rohini/Rajendra.

For LGB/PGM bombs, its better to develop a 5 km range missile like Iron Dome Tamir. It can be command guided without any seeker of its own to save cost/size/weights since LGB/PGM dont maneuver hard and have easily predictable ballistic trajectory.

We've the radars mentioned above for this purpose as well as the C3 network & architecture.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Karthik S » 21 Apr 2017 10:48

Livefist‏ @livefist
BREAKING: India's L&T & Korea's Hanwha Techwin sign Rs 4600 cr #MakeInIndia deal to build 100 K9 Vajra-T tracked howitzers for Indian Army.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 21 Apr 2017 11:54

have to agree with tsarkar...the tamir while not exactly as cheap as moode idli are in ballpark of the LGB/gliding weapons (JDAM in volume is some $25k). kill a rat with a rat.packing density seems high with beehive type boxes. Note $50k for for having its own radar...we can try command guided like akash with a radar capable of handling say 24 inflight projectiles across 360 or keep 1 radar per quadrant like akash and scale that up ... that will be a $10k weapon.

we should explore this idea for high value point targets like airbases, railway nodes, POL, ammo stores, VVIP areas

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby pkudva » 21 Apr 2017 12:33

Karthik S wrote:
Livefist‏ @livefist
BREAKING: India's L&T & Korea's Hanwha Techwin sign Rs 4600 cr #MakeInIndia deal to build 100 K9 Vajra-T tracked howitzers for Indian Army.


Does that mean The contract with MOD has been signed or.......Post this the Contract with MOD shall be signed.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Karthik S » 21 Apr 2017 12:58

It was cleared in march by the cabinet.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby pkudva » 21 Apr 2017 13:22

Karthik S wrote:It was cleared in march by the cabinet.


However the Contract is Yet to be signed.....Post CCS Clearance , Contract is to be signed.

Hence the Query, Has it been signed....Only Posy Contract Signing, Production can Proceed

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 21 Apr 2017 23:03

I don't think that L&T would sign a firm contract with the Korean company until it had a contract in from with the MoD:

Larsen & Toubro signs pact with South Korea's Hanwha Techwin for army weapon

NEW DELHI: Engineering conglomerate Larsen and Toubro inked a deal with South Korean defence major Hanwha Techwin (HTW) today to jointly manufacture over 100 self- propelled howitzers for Indian Army at a cost of nearly Rs 4,500 crore.

The first batch of the 155mm/52 Cal Tracked Self Propelled (SP) gun -- K9 VAJRA-T -- will be delivered later this year and the entire supply will be made within a span of 42 months.

While 10 guns will be directly brought from South Korea, 90 will be manufactured in L&T's Strategic Systems Complex in Talegaon near Pune.

L&T also has initiated the process for setting up a greenfield manufacturing line at Gujrat's Hazira to produce K9 VAJRA-T guns.

Patil said L&T will not only manufacture K9 VAJRA-T in India, with over 50 per cent indigenous content, but also provide life support to the army with the weapon.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 22 Apr 2017 07:44

More details:

L&T, South Korea’s HTW sign deal to supply 155mm/52 Cal Tracked SP gun to Army

Indian multinational conglomerate Larsen &Toubro (L&T) and South Korean firm Hanwha Techwin (HTW) on Friday signed a contract for execution of the 155mm/ 52 Cal Tracked Self Propelled (SP) Gun programme for the Indian Army. L&T was declared as the sole qualified bidder, post User Evaluation Trials, based on the performance of the K9 VAJRA-T, a world class self-propelled howitzer appropriately customised and fielded by L&T with HTW as the technology partner. The contract is a result of nearly a decade long close relationship and joint efforts of the two companies on this programme, through extensive user evaluation and field trials followed by contract negotiations with the ministry of defence. The K9 VAJRA-T gun is an enhanced version of HTW’s K9 Thunder, to suit specific requirements of the Indian Army including desert operations.

HTW’s K9 Thunder is one of the best performing self-propelled howitzers in the world with over 1,000 numbers already in service in Korea and few other countries. This programme has set new benchmarks in co-development and co-production of defence systems by Indian private sector defence players and foreign majors. Jayant Patil, head of defence and aerospace and member of heavy engineering board at L&T, said: “This contract marks an important milestone in L&T’s defence business journey and in our relationship with Hanwha Techwin. It will create synergies not only for this programme but also for upcoming Indian and global programmes.

This also marks a giant step forward towards furthering the “Make in India” vision of the government of India. L&T plans to begin production of this vital weapon system at its Strategic Systems Complex at Talegaon near Pune in Maharashtra and deliver the first batch of 10 guns. L&T also has initiated setting up of a green field manufacturing line at Hazira, Gujarat, integral with a state-of- the-art test track, to produce, test and qualify the K9 VAJRA-T guns.” Keeping the spirit of Make in India, L&T shall not only manufacture K9 VAJRA-T in India, with over 50% indigenous content, but also provide through life support from India.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 22 Apr 2017 08:17

I have a thought.

The areas of border that the IA plans to deploy the Vajra in, are also likely to be 'happy hunting grounds' for the Arjun.

Can I dream of Indra's son, along with Indra's personal weapon, pouring across the border at Jaisalmer and smashing through Paki defenses for a quick dash to RYK? 8)

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ArjunPandit » 22 Apr 2017 19:29

Kakkaji wrote:I have a thought.

The areas of border that the IA plans to deploy the Vajra in, are also likely to be 'happy hunting grounds' for the Arjun.

Can I dream of Indra's son, along with Indra's personal weapon, pouring across the border at Jaisalmer and smashing through Paki defenses for a quick dash to RYK? 8)

Thoughts like these are called dreams. Sometimes they do come true but only after a long toiling day and a "hard day's night". The day it happens there will be a party on BRF :)

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Prem » 24 Apr 2017 06:10

http://www.defencenews.in/article.aspx?id=251656
Indian Army to induct more extended range Pinaka Rocket Launch Systems
Adding fire power to its artillery, the Indian Army is looking to induct eight indigenously developed Pinaka multi-barrel rocket launcher systems. The Pinaka system is designed and developed by two private entities, the Tatas and Larsen and Toubro, in association with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).The Defence Acquisition Council cleared a RFP (Request for Proposal) last November for six additional regiments at a cost of ₹14,633 crore. The Indian Army currently operates two regiments of the Pinaka, combat proven and used in the Kargil conflict, that can fire up to 12 missiles in 44 seconds.Pinaka system was developed by the DRDO during early 90’s with L&T and Tata Power as development partners for the launch systems. After years of trials and evaluation and subsequent harmonisation, this weapon system was cleared for induction in the Indian Army about one-and-a-half decades back.Being an indigenously designed and developed system, the same was technologically brought to the state-of-the-art status and two regiments were produced for the Indian Army. Since two indigenous technological solutions were developed, the Ministry of Defence implemented the recommendations of an empowered committee to source the Launchers and Fire control systems (Command Posts) from L&T as well as Tata Power in equal proportion.In November 2016, a contract for two more regiments was placed almost six years after conclusion of negotiations against a June 2010 RFP.
L&T was entrusted the responsibility of realisation of two Multi-Barrel Rocket Launcher Systems (MBRLs) based on the concept and base specifications given by the Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE, a DRDO laboratory), but with low voltage battery backed system.The Pinaka MBRL is designed by L&T as an artillery system that is built for operating in ‘silent mode’ and is based on all-electric low-voltage battery backed technology developed in-house. Pinaka Launchers and Command Posts have been serially produced by L&T with indigenous content in excess of 80 per cent, including the imported Inertial Navigation SensorEarly this year, the DRDO tested a new version (Pinaka Mk-II) of the rockets, which can be guided to land on enemy targets. Can you give us some details on the extended range version of the rocket system, and L&T’s technical know-how which will boost the armoury?The Pinaka Mk-II variant has been a joint development by the DRDO in collaboration with the user (Artillery User Directorate) to target a range of 60 km with enhanced terminal accuracy. This is to be achieved by incorporating aerodynamic correction features to modify flight trajectory with the inclusion of INS.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby srai » 24 Apr 2017 07:30

^^^

10 Pinaka Regiments
  • 2 x Pinaka Regiments - 2010
  • 2 x Pinaka Regiments- 2016
  • 6 x Pinaka Regiments - 2017* (RFP cleared DAC 2016)

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 24 Apr 2017 10:21

how many launch vehicles and stock of rockets does each regiment have?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby srai » 24 Apr 2017 22:31

Pinaka Battery
  • 1 x Command Post
  • 1 x DIGICORA MET Radar
  • 6 x Launcher -> 12 rockets each (2 pods with 6 rockets each) -> total = 72 rockets (ready to fire)
  • 6 x Loader cum Replenishment (LCR) -> 12 rockets each (2 pods with 6 rockets each) -> total = 72 rockets (reload)
  • 3 x Replenishment (LV) -> 24 rockets each (4 pods with 6 rockets each) -> total = 72 rockets (reload)
Total rockets (deployed) = 216 rockets

Each regiment comprises of 3 Pinaka batteries, plus reserves. That would mean minimum 648 rockets (deployed). More would be in reserves.

Couple of years ago, production of rockets was increased to 5000 a year.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Gyan » 24 Apr 2017 22:46

DAC clearance mean practically nothing.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 24 Apr 2017 23:11

srai sahab,

Thanks for maintaining these lists and posters at your end.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Will » 25 Apr 2017 01:39

Wonder if they have started work on the 120Km Pinaka III.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Bheeshma » 25 Apr 2017 02:29

That would be Pinaka-II? This extended range is Pinaka-1 Mk2? They have the same launcher. Pinaka-II or III will definitely be 300 mm or higher diameter.
Last edited by Bheeshma on 25 Apr 2017 03:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Cosmo_R » 25 Apr 2017 02:38

Is Murree within range? :)

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Bheeshma » 25 Apr 2017 03:04

Saar from Kargil, Skardu will be in range of Pinaka-II's.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 25 Apr 2017 06:06

What would it take to get the DRDO to release ONE just one video of a Pinaka salvo hitting a simulated target. Propaganda is made from such things and we as hopeless at the boasting and bluster game. Why do we revel in self criticism and "introspection". Is that all about dharma and making oneself pure and honest?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vasu raya » 25 Apr 2017 06:46

Pinaka's range is alright, but India wouldn't go beyond 155mm artillery during peacetime, the 155mm is also used only when Pakis start their 155mms...we need peacetime weapons too with enough range

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby RohitAM » 25 Apr 2017 18:47

I honestly think that we should start thinking "tactical depth" for cross-border firing and punitively punishing the Pakistanis in general. If we are manufacturing almost 5k Pinaka rockets every year, I think we can bring to bear 1-2 regiments of Pinaka on a regular basis to hammer Pakistani heavy artillery, mortar, and bunker positions, as well as supply lines. A sudden salvo firing across the LoC by almost 9 Pinaka batteries targeting various known Pakistani positions (or any important new ones earmarked through drone and satellite surveillance) can catch those idiots off-guard and result in severely steep losses in men and material.

We need to make every experiment by the Pakistani Army super-expensive from the viewpoint of both the Pakistanis as well as their Chinese overlords.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby sudeepj » 25 Apr 2017 22:50

RohitAM wrote:I honestly think that we should start thinking "tactical depth" for cross-border firing and punitively punishing the Pakistanis in general. ...


:rotfl: As if Paki jernails give a rats arse about their own civilian population..

RohitAM wrote:We need to make every experiment by the Pakistani Army super-expensive from the viewpoint of both the Pakistanis as well as their Chinese overlords.


Only one way to control the Punjabi jernails. Target the families and their own personal safety.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ArjunPandit » 25 Apr 2017 23:23

since we are in realm of dreams, i would add sudip's wishlist to cart as well

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 25 Apr 2017 23:29

Lets stick to topic.

The increase in Pinaka is a great thing.
Are these the MKII which has the Trajectory Correction System (TCS)?
Thanks,
ramana

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ArjunPandit » 26 Apr 2017 04:41

So these are the latest #s and timelines on Artillery
1. K9: 100 Delivery starts around 2018
2. Dhanush: 3 inducted 114 order
3. M777: 145; Guns start becoming available starting mid of this year. Chinooks start coming in 2018 and end in 2019
4. ATAGS: Seems like no order has been placed; but requirement running in 1000s; induction expected to startin '19-20; immediate requirement of 114
5. Pinaka : 10 regiments; already inducted; no.s to be increased.
I would also look for situation on Papistan.
One area, that we probably should consider is a plane mounted artillery like one on C130

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ArjunPandit » 28 Apr 2017 03:17

http://rightlog.in/2017/01/india-pakistan-artillery-power/
Fairly interesting and detailed analysis. Misses out out on
1. Smerch, Grad and Pinaka
2. the fact that once the upcoming domestic programs mature, the lead will be by miles.
3. Acquisitions will tilt the balance in our favor significantly

But again it talks about "As-Is" state and not "To-Be"

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby malushahi » 28 Apr 2017 04:27

5. Pinaka : 10 regiments; already inducted; no.s to be increased.


L&T and Tata Power (SED) are building IA’s third and fourth regiments (ordered in 12/2016). Tender for 6 more in pipeline.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Cosmo_R » 28 Apr 2017 06:24

The K9 Vajra stuff. The barrels and the breech will not be made in India apparently because L&T says it's not viable for an order of just 100.

I'm sure that this has been carefully thought through by the MOD Boffins but having commonality among barrels/breeches among the others (ATAGS/Dhanush) would have certainly helped towards an economic order quantity.

As it stands, one can almost predict what will happen: there will be delays on the Dhanush/ATAGS and emergency orders will be placed for the K9s which collectively will form an economic lot but since they are ordered piecemeal initially, we'll forever buy barrels and breeches from the SKOs.

I for one am awed by the fact that NOKOs have been building the 170MM SPG for some 20 plus years. We are still futzing around. THere's no Plan A when it comes to defense matters in India. Whatever its shortcomings, it works well enough for SOKO to bew concerned.

ArjunPandit
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ArjunPandit » 28 Apr 2017 06:56

^^ Multiple live studies have shown that the fear of getting eaten by dogs, shot by anti aircraft guns or murdered in exotic ways works wonders to the creativity and resourcefulness of people.
Try doing that here, RNDTV and physics will be the limit


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