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Artillery Discussion Thread

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 16 Jul 2017 20:11

Why dont they develop a moto mod type crane module which can be transported in another sling or trailer and ease the burden

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby jamwal » 16 Jul 2017 20:43

Wouldn't pulling the gun by barrel damage it ?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Rakesh » 16 Jul 2017 21:04


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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby brar_w » 16 Jul 2017 21:44

jamwal wrote:Wouldn't pulling the gun by barrel damage it ?


Not unless it has been designed to be done that way.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 16 Jul 2017 22:37

jamwal wrote:Wouldn't pulling the gun by barrel damage it ?


The d 30 and the massive russian 240 mm mortars have the tow hook in the same position. As does the ST pegasas so it is an accepted solution for towing the gun.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby JayS » 16 Jul 2017 22:48

DDR of Sjha tweets that there has been a burst of muzzle of the barrel happened for Dhanush during trials. Majaor incidence was avoided. No more info than this.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby darshan » 17 Jul 2017 03:36

how much worse will the Pokhran test range would be compared to many test ranges like Yuma or ones in Africa?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Khalsa » 17 Jul 2017 10:18

darshan wrote:how much worse will the Pokhran test range would be compared to many test ranges like Yuma or ones in Africa?


huh ?
what

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 17 Jul 2017 10:28

darshan wrote:how much worse will the Pokhran test range would be compared to many test ranges like Yuma or ones in Africa?


What makes you think it is worse? Too many shivering doubts

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 17 Jul 2017 12:52

shiv wrote:
darshan wrote:how much worse will the Pokhran test range would be compared to many test ranges like Yuma or ones in Africa?


What makes you think it is worse? Too many shivering doubts


Well if pokhran is worst compared to other test sites. Then in a perverse way it is a badge of TFTAness.

No.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby JayS » 17 Jul 2017 14:36

JayS wrote:DDR of Sjha tweets that there has been a burst of muzzle of the barrel happened for Dhanush during trials. Majaor incidence was avoided. No more info than this.


I wonder if this was same as TOIlet paper below reported on May 27, 2017.

Indian Bofors misfires during trials

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 864288.cms

In the second such incident, one of the Indian guns was damaged due to an accident during test fires. Nearly a fortnight ago, as battery trials of Dhanush — the Indian gun were under way at Pokhran — the shell burst soon after ejection from the barrel, said sources.

They say this has damaged the muzzle brake, the part at the front of the barrel. Its function is to absorb recoil created during firing of shells. The howitzers are being made at the Gun Carriage Factory (GCF), Jabalpur. Around 12 pieces have already been made.

This incident has pushed the process back by a month.
It happens when the GCF was in the last stage of trials. The firing was part of user exploitation, which was conducted for the first time for any weapon system.

Usually, once a system is cleared through user-trials, it is inducted. "For Dhanush, user exploitation was included after user trials were over," said the sources. This means the army wanted to further use guns to get accustomed to it. Any changes required were also supposed to be suggested.


Was this posted here previously..? If, yes I missed it completely.

PS: India Today also tweeted this yesterday. Not sure if they all are referring to same incidence or there were two similar incidences in which muzzle was damaged. I think its the same incidence.

https://twitter.com/IndiaTodayFLASH/sta ... 2571970560

But I can't find the tweet by DDR. May be its deleted..? Can't find it or see it on their TL. Wonder why. I do have its screenshot on cell phone though.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby putnanja » 17 Jul 2017 15:19

Wasn't the earlier incident due to an issue with the shell and not the gun per se?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Marten » 17 Jul 2017 15:22

putnanja wrote:Wasn't the earlier incident due to an issue with the shell and not the gun per se?

Nothing to suggest that it was not the shell again. "Burst just outside the barrel" or "soon after ejection" would indicate shell quality is suspect; nothing to do with Dhanush itself.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby JayS » 17 Jul 2017 15:35

Marten wrote:
putnanja wrote:Wasn't the earlier incident due to an issue with the shell and not the gun per se?

Nothing to suggest that it was not the shell again. "Burst just outside the barrel" or "soon after ejection" would indicate shell quality is suspect; nothing to do with Dhanush itself.


The 2013 (IIRC) incidence was due to faulty ammunition. This one might as well be due to faulty ammunition. At least seems so from the reading. The damage seems less this time.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby JayS » 17 Jul 2017 15:42

Interestingly the article posted above says:

Usually, once a system is cleared through user-trials, it is inducted. "For Dhanush, user exploitation was included after user trials were over," said the sources. This means the army wanted to further use guns to get accustomed to it. Any changes required were also supposed to be suggested


I have been wondering the extended time for "proof" trials for production version artillery pieces (posted my doubt here once). May be the stretched testing is because of this "User exploitation" tests which are over and above the usual set of tests for merely proving the production version. Its good that time is taken and the changes are being suggested upfront. But I hope the changes are limited in scope only to avoid project creep.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby srai » 17 Jul 2017 16:54

Image

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby tsarkar » 17 Jul 2017 18:36

http://www.dailydefencenews.com/dhanush ... my-trials/

The testfire will be held at Pokhran in Rajasthan next month with around 300 rounds of firing and this may be the final round under the “user exploitation”. The previous testfire was held at Siachen where the gun was able to fire accurately with even pinpointing bunkers. The rounds could hit the target with minute precision.


This was an intensive fire test. When 300 rounds are fired, one or two are bound to misfire by the law of averages. The cause will be found and rectified before mass production. Will be done for M777 too.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby suryag » 17 Jul 2017 18:41

With all due respect to TSarkar sir, this Dhanush will never enter production because next time after fixing it we will get it to Pokhran again and this time around 1000 rounds will be fired and then there will be a failure and so on and so forth. Dhanush tu bhi gaya like Arjun

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby kvraghav » 17 Jul 2017 18:46

American howitzer is here already and they are updated firing chart already without extended trials. Time for some generals children to get green card out of order in waiting queue.
Last edited by Indranil on 17 Jul 2017 22:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby JayS » 17 Jul 2017 19:00

srai wrote:Image

suryag wrote:With all due respect to TSarkar sir, this Dhanush will never enter production because next time after fixing it we will get it to Pokhran again and this time around 1000 rounds will be fired and then there will be a failure and so on and so forth. Dhanush tu bhi gaya like Arjun

kvraghav wrote:American howitzer is here already and they are updated firing chart already without extended trials. Time for some generals children to get green card out of order in waiting queue.


^^ Totally unnecessary posts.


tsarkar wrote:http://www.dailydefencenews.com/dhanush-artillery-guns-enter-final-army-trials/

The testfire will be held at Pokhran in Rajasthan next month with around 300 rounds of firing and this may be the final round under the “user exploitation”. The previous testfire was held at Siachen where the gun was able to fire accurately with even pinpointing bunkers. The rounds could hit the target with minute precision.


This was an intensive fire test. When 300 rounds are fired, one or two are bound to misfire by the law of averages. The cause will be found and rectified before mass production. Will be done for M777 too.


Tsarkar/Rohit,
1-2 failures damaging muzzle or barrel for 300 firings seem too much to me in operational use. What is the reliability requirement on the ammunition for the howitzer..? Also what is the same requirement for the barrel.? How many firings before barrel needs replacement..? How many misfires allowed say per 1000 firing..?

Also what exactly "user exploitation" means..? How are these tests different than usual test matrix for under development platform..?

any info would be appreciated.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 17 Jul 2017 19:20

some data here, but dates back to ww2
http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4098

they were using hefty 300kg charges and the rounds were around 2t ... but physics is a hard teacher for all.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby sudeepj » 17 Jul 2017 21:45

Appears to be a failure in the ammunition and not the Gun.. Last time, it appears there were air bubbles inside the explosive loaded in the shells, which caused an internal shockwave and a premature explosion within the barrel, this one sounds like a bad fuse. The fuse is supposed to count the number of revolutions of the shell and arm the shell only after the shell has gone through a certain number of revolutions. This makes sure that the shell does not explode so close to the gun so as to harm the gunners. It will be deeply disappointing if this latest mishap is treated as a gun problem and the induction postponed, particularly when the Chinese are posturing in the East and Pakis in the west.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 17 Jul 2017 21:51

Pratyush wrote:Well if pokhran is worst compared to other test sites. Then in a perverse way it is a badge of TFTAness.

I must be dumb. What is a TFTA artillery testing range? One with a bar and waiter bringing drinks and dancing girls? A firing range is just a vast empty area with some targets marked out and telemetry/observers to see what is going on

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 17 Jul 2017 22:02

kvraghav wrote:American howitzer is here already and they are updated firing chart already without extended trials. Time for some generals children to get green card out of order in waiting queue.

I object to this statement because you are insulting a number of sincere and brave people while painting the corrupt. I have repeatedly pointed to admins that on BRF if I accuse you personally of corruption I will get a warning or a ban, but you can accuse senior armed forces officers of corruption and it is "Freedom of Expression"

That is why BRF works like an exclusive club where we are loyal to each other and consider ourselves superior to others bragging that we are ahead of curve. Outsiders including the armed forces are all fair game for libellous comments. The irony of course is that this forum and site were started by people who were fundamentally respectful and grateful to the armed forces. Not to mention that I was a loose cannon as an admin and would ban people for such comments. Let me boast that I gave up my admin post myself - to "fight from the outside" without scaring the shit out of people who would go out of their way to butter me up. It still happens. You see all sorts of insulting people going all soft, gooey and respectful with "admin-sir".

And we have now lost Rohit Vats because of this sort of stuff. Other ex armed forces people have expressed anguish at this but hey this is BRF. We are friggin ahead of curve.

hack thoo

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 17 Jul 2017 22:28

^^^ The poster has been warned.

By the way, you are right. You have gone overboard with your latest post too. But I will let it slide this time.

You can help us by reporting the posts. In today's high volume traffic, it is unreasonable to expect moderators to read all the posts?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby negi » 17 Jul 2017 22:43

People getting senti with forces lol ; what about the names we keep for IAS and Politicos ? Just because there is a perception that they are more corrupt does it mean we get touchy for one and not for others ? If people want to take a high moral ground there ain't no limit for getting high . I mean one could use same kind of lahori logic and defend INC too for I am sure there are some good folks there too . When someone makes a post about corruption in an institution why is it objectionable ? One has a right to be offended but then one should have an ability to take a stand which is consistent , to get offended when forces are put to question and then in every other post claim MOD sucks or how babus are responsible for all that ails India's MIC is hypocrisy .

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby srai » 17 Jul 2017 23:38

^^^
Well said negi.

Folks let's move on to the topic at hand. Enough of the continual thread derailment.

Criticism are everyday things. Some are valid; some are not. Treatment should be fair and should be justifiable. IMO, the largest share of criticism on BRF are made against DPSUs and GoI babus, and not against the armed forces. Go search the threads over the years and you will see too. Take it easy with long patriotic rants only in support of the forces; DPSUs and babus are Indian too.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby jamwal » 17 Jul 2017 23:47

I have read in a few places that barrels need to be replaced after certain amount of firings. Is there any open source information about Dhanjsh and other big guns in India ?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 18 Jul 2017 00:11

Pokhran in summer gets hot and that effects shell accuracy. That is one reason why it is used to proof artillery to see how the temperature effects the overall system.

I posted a link to the US efforts to improve the M1 tank gun and one of the issues was the long barrel would distort due to the heat of firing multiple rounds. So one fix was an auto-frettage step in the gun barrel heat treatment to induce compressive stress to act like winding the barrel in the old days.


I never heard of 'user -exploitation trials'. Could be a new one.

maybe to provide training to more soldiers.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 18 Jul 2017 00:11

JayS. Please post the screen shot or put it on twitter.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby JayS » 18 Jul 2017 00:36

ramana wrote:JayS. Please post the screen shot or put it on twitter.


Here is an image
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2Jcr1 ... p=drivesdk

Even India Today has tweeted the same thing. I saw that tweet too.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 18 Jul 2017 00:39

Everybody, move on. Stick to the topic at hand. Questioning IA/IAF decisions is not off the board, but needless/unsubstantiated name-calling will draw ire. Posters, please help us by reporting posts.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 18 Jul 2017 00:40

Indranil wrote:^^^ The poster has been warned.

By the way, you are right. You have gone overboard with your latest post too. But I will let it slide this time.

You can help us by reporting the posts. In today's high volume traffic, it is unreasonable to expect moderators to read all the posts?


Sure it's unreasonable to expect moderators to read all posts but when mods themselves display bias because of a lack of knowledge and even when data and facts are given a 100 times some mods choose to ignore it. This sets the tone for the completely uninformed posting we have seen. There are many reasons to be critical of the armed forces but not one has come up here. Why - complete lack of knowledge and and even stronger lack of desire to apply mind. Subtly egged on by some mods. Anyway it's up to the mods to decide how they want to play this. Your forum, your choice. There is some good work going on here and I wish you all the best.

Best wishes.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ArjunPandit » 18 Jul 2017 00:45

srai wrote:^^^
Well said negi.
Folks let's move on to the topic at hand. Enough of the continual thread derailment.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5052&p=2186439#p2186439

Request admaulanas to see the fariyad of this nanha mujahid

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 18 Jul 2017 00:47

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Indranil wrote:^^^ The poster has been warned.

By the way, you are right. You have gone overboard with your latest post too. But I will let it slide this time.

You can help us by reporting the posts. In today's high volume traffic, it is unreasonable to expect moderators to read all the posts?


Sure it's unreasonable to expect moderators to read all posts but when mods themselves display bias because of a lack of knowledge and even when data and facts are given a 100 times some mods choose to ignore it. This sets the tone for the completely uninformed posting we have seen. There are many reasons to be critical of the armed forces but not one has come up here. Why - complete lack of knowledge and and even stronger lack of desire to apply mind. Subtly egged on by some mods. Anyway it's up to the mods to decide how they want to play this. Your forum, your choice. There is some good work going on here and I wish you all the best.

Best wishes.

Akshay sir, I will respond on the feedback thread.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 18 Jul 2017 07:29

Indranil wrote:^^^ The poster has been warned.

By the way, you are right. You have gone overboard with your latest post too. But I will let it slide this time.

You can help us by reporting the posts. In today's high volume traffic, it is unreasonable to expect moderators to read all the posts?

Indranil - let me remind you and other admins that you people do not have to wait for next elections. More admins can be appointed. It is many many months if not years since I saw RahulM doing any admin work. The last time there was an admin group expansion I recall both you and Rahul M became admins. I also recall suggesting some names. Please do not complain of being short of hands. Appoint more admins. It is in the hands of the admins and let that not become a closed club like P5

Bharat Rakshak is a site set up by volunteers and ideally people who are too busy should hand the baton to someone who has time. Or at least add to the group.

And I ask once again. What is the purpose of these forums? Does any forum member or any admin have any idea? This is the wrong thread but recall that it was an admin decision to move the forum complaints to a hidden thread. It is odd that the forum itself can be seen by the public but the complaints are discussed in the private clubhouse.
Last edited by shiv on 18 Jul 2017 07:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 18 Jul 2017 07:33

negi wrote:People getting senti with forces lol ; what about the names we keep for IAS and Politicos ? Just because there is a perception that they are more corrupt does it mean we get touchy for one and not for others ? If people want to take a high moral ground there ain't no limit for getting high . I mean one could use same kind of lahori logic and defend INC too for I am sure there are some good folks there too . When someone makes a post about corruption in an institution why is it objectionable ? One has a right to be offended but then one should have an ability to take a stand which is consistent , to get offended when forces are put to question and then in every other post claim MOD sucks or how babus are responsible for all that ails India's MIC is hypocrisy .


Recall that there are people with fathers and sons in the armed forces who visit this forum. It was these people as well as retired military folks who contributed immensely to these forums and still do in a situation where a lot of people live in la la land about the military. I am speaking from that perspective. If you like INC you should be doing the complaining about people cursing INC or Babus. This is a mil forum and not an INC/Babu forum

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Rahul M » 18 Jul 2017 07:51

>> It is many many months if not years since I saw RahulM doing any admin work. The last time there was an admin group expansion I recall both you and Rahul M became admins.

nitpicking & OT. my last 'admin work' was yesterday. ;) I was given moderation responsibilities way back in 2008 and was one of those who suggested Indranil's name for mod. btw, you are correct that as more admins have become busy IRL their moderation activities have gone down. I have been thinking of another expansion in mod ranks for sometime. will start that process.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 18 Jul 2017 10:17

Hakeem,

I disagree here.

I think I have explained my position. If you can show me a post where I have disrespected the armed forces, or have been selectively relaxed to only those who have questioned the military, I will happily put down my pen and walk out of here. If not, you guys should also question your biases. Afterall, you have questioned the integrity, patriotism and capability of three moderators directly.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby srai » 18 Jul 2017 10:31

Back to Artillery.

Please move OT discussions to the feedback thread. Thanks.


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