Artillery: News & Discussion

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Aug 2017 21:22

Remember the Paki with brain amoebiasis who bet on an India-Pakistan match and lost the bet? He said, never mind, there's a replay on TV tomorrow I'll bet again and maybe I'll win. Anyhow the joke goes something like that.

The reason I say this is that we know damn well that the media will all resort to sensationalism and lies either to attract views, or are getting paid to do that. So we collect up a bunch of irritating reports, curse them and say "Let's look for more reports" like the Paki betting on replay. Like a brain injured person who slips in and out of consciousness, coherent and alert for some time and raving another time - we keep compulsively looking at media reports and swinging between depression and elation.

Personally I do not believe any report whatsoever - and nowadays there are too many reports. And to some extent there is deliberate obfuscation. The armed forces and the government sometimes treat the media like Modi does. Mostly ignore, don't invite and give standard controlled inputs to them

Every time the armed forces have been media friendly they have got bitten in their asses -be it Cargill or Cashmere. JMT

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 16 Aug 2017 22:25

Lalmohan wrote:look at the source of the article, then consider who gains from the headline...

??

Who does? Doesn't seem to have any American connection. The reports also indict Rolls-Royce for making illegal payoffs so it's unlikely the story was cooked up by the British. And the French don't have any influence over the UK SFO or our CBI & ED that are investigating the matter.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Aug 2017 01:38

Philip, The Sputnik article rehashes the known information on Dhanush.

It's not new information.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 Aug 2017 10:43

Tx.Thought it was new.

There is an in-depth article on the state of OFB,ammo issues,etc. in a recent journo. What has happened in India is that as the armed forces and para/police demands have grown,modernisation,of factories,production,supply and esp. storage have languished. Thus a significant % is sub-std. and when stored badly goes kaput.It is exactly like the state of civil supplies ,lack of sufficient warehouses,where millions of tons of food every year go rotting,huge stocks kept under tarpaulin/plastic. Storage faciilties are also required near the border and appear not to have kept pace with the spread of expanded threats.The need to produce more means corners are cut.

This is a problem across the board in independent India.Once we acquire something,erect a new school,station,bus stand,public building,etc.,its annual maintenance is left to the devil. Funds earmarked for such are squandered,transferred to something else or embezzeled. WE saw this in the case of sub batteries when after the fire in a Kilo sub that cost lives,the cannibalisation of batteries issue came out as AKA had sat tight for aeons on decisions and procurement of sub spares,support,etc. Adm.Joshi resigned in disgust.

Media reports today.There's just one hangar for 14 IL-76s and 6 IL-78 tankers,The CAG said that it had adversely affected the availability and life of the aircraft! I'm sure many have observed at an air base doubling as a civvy airport,dozens of MKIs out in the open.Has this been one reason why MKI availability has been affected? You remember what happened after the Airbus crash at BLR many,many years ago when they were first acquired? All aircraft were grounded and left to rot in the blazing heat and the avionics suffered.

When M2Ks were acquired,they required air-con hangars if I remember right and a few went for a burton when the false ceiling collapsed at some point. Unless this attitude changes across the nation and esp in the armed forces who are the most disciplined of the lot,our acquisitions costing tens of billions will suffer this avoidable fate.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Aug 2017 20:51

Philip: This is the artillery discussion thread. Just sayin'

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 19 Aug 2017 03:00

vivS - certain news agencies exist for very specific purposes. that is one of them. if taking one pinch of salt with source x, take a fistful with source y

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Aug 2017 03:07

Philip

There is an in-depth article on the state of OFB, ammo issues, etc. in a recent journo.

Please answer in the OFB thread if you know more details.

Thanks, ramana

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 19 Aug 2017 03:41

http://idrw.org/drdo-plans-to-revive-se ... r-project/

DRDO plans to revive Self-Propelled Artillery ” BHIM Howitzer” Project

Published April 24, 2016 SOURCE: IDRW NEWS NETWORK

After been in Cold Storage for more than a decade , DRDO now plans to revive 155m 52 Calibre Self-Propelled Artillery Gun mounted on Arjun MBT derivative chassis soon said a well-informed source close to idrw.org . BHIM Project had cleared all Indian Army user trials before South African state-owned Company Denel was blacklisted amid corruption charges which had co-developed BHIM with DRDO and had also provided its 155mm / L52 howitzer Gun for the project. DRDO has not officially explained how it plans to source the new gun but many Industrial experts believe that DRDO fight source new Gun neither from Kalyani or use modified derivative Gun from in-house Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS) project currently been developed with partnership with Kalyani and TATA . The vehicle is equipped with 1400 hp power pack and state-of-the-art hydro-gas suspension. BHIM was appreciated by Indian Army for its High mobility and exceptional ballistics coming together with comprehensive subsystems making BHIM one of the finest 155mm 52 Calibre Self-Propelled Artillery Gun which was one step from entering Production . Indian Army due to uncertainty in ‘Bhim’ howitzer project went for International tender and now is in the process to place orders for K9 Vajra-T, the 155-mm/52-caliber self-propelled howitzer artillery gun co-developed by Larsen & Toubro (L&T) and Samsung Techwin. Indian Army plans to procure 100 K9 Vajra-T likely to be followed up with the purchase of additional 50 more K9 Vajra-T at a later stage but Army requirement might be for over 500 such howitzer artillery gun which might have prompted DRDO to bring the focus back to BHIM Project.

Is anything more happening on this front?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 19 Aug 2017 11:09

Why go for a domestic product at this time. When the k 9 has already been selected and approved for production. It will take 5 years for the product to reach prototype stage and another 3 to 4 years of trials. After which orders will be placed.

The better option would be to eliminate the mounted gun catagory all together and replace them with the k 9. The will confirm orders for nearly 1000 SPH guns.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Aug 2017 12:08

The DRDO story is 1 year old.

jayasimha · Post by **jayasimha** » 19 Aug 2017 15:29

July 2017

Present and Futuristic Trends in Weapon System
A.K. Roy*, P.H. Lankennavar, and V.S. Ghadge
Armament Research and Development Establishment, Pune - 411 021, India

http://publications.drdo.gov.in/ojs/ind ... 11441/5960

kit · Post by **kit** » 19 Aug 2017 16:14

deejay wrote:Rohitvats blog on antitank missile:

http://vatsrohit.blogspot.in/2017/08/in ... uided.html

...
As the write-up shows, Indian Army has a varied types of anti-tank guided missiles depending upon usage and platform. In pure number terms, the total requirement is in excess of 85,00 missiles of different types.

The recent order for Spike-MR fills only one, albeit large, part of the overall requirement. If the infantry battalions indeed use a mix of short and long range ATGM, then Spike-MR represents replacement of only the short range version i.e. Milan/Milan-2T. The field is wide open for replacement of Konkur-M in long range ATGM for the infantry. CLGM mentioned above has the attributes to be this replacement. It remains to be seen whether CLGM/CLGM derived missile is the answer or we import another missile. Spike family has the Spike-LR version and Israelis will sure push it. Considering that Konkur-M are going strong, I think domestic R&D establishment still has some time on their hand to offer a credible solution for this requirement.

But induction of Spike-MR does mean that doors for US made Javelin ATGM are more or less closed. It does not make sense for an army to operate two man-portable ATGMs. It might so happen that IA may import some units for specialized formations like special forces. But even this seems absurd.

BMP-2 are slated for upgrade. One proposal from the Russians talks of re-arming the BMP-2 with four AT-14 Kornet missiles; these are placed on either side of the turret in a ready-to-fire pack of two. With DRDO making progress with CLGM, it remains to be seen if it can be adapted for BMP-2 upgrade. Between infantry's long range ATGM requirement and BMP-2 upgrade, CLGM/CLGM derived missile has the potential to tap the biggest segment of ATGM in the army.

Recently, Indian Army has expressed interest for next generation tank fired ATGM for its T-90 fleet. And it seems the T-72 main gun (2A46M) is also likely to be updated with T-90 main gun (2A46-M5). This will permit upgraded T-72 to fire ATGM from the main gun. CLGM was developed for 120mm rifled main gun of Arjun tank while T-72/T-90 have 125mm main guns. It remains to be see whether DRDO bites the bullet and delivers a new missile for T-90/T-72 fleet or India goes for missile from abroad.

Finally, NAG seems to that much closer to clearing the final hurdle. This one missile represents a phenomenal jump in anti-tank capability of the army. The missile is capable of defeating any present or future tank which is likely to see service on western or eastern borders. It induction in the army will give formidable anti-tank capability to its infantry/mechanized formations.

Same goes for HELINA. The Army Aviation Corp (AAC) is slated for massive expansion, especially in the attack helicopter domain. IA plans to induct 60 Rudra and 114 Light Combat Helicopters. It is but common sense that a domestic missile serves this massive requirement.

As things stand today, India can fulfill about 80%-85% of ATGM requirement across multiple platforms. All it requires is for the R&D establishment to work out realistic and achievable goals. And for the Indian Army to ensure good does not become the enemy of the best and that it works closely with the R&D establishment to work on this road-map.
...

Good news indeed .. the Army will be prepared for a full assault the next time the Pak musharaffs try one in India

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 20 Aug 2017 21:09

Singha wrote:in wonder if arty regiments could make use of small forklift trucks that warehouses and construction sites use to move around pallets of ammo once they are dropped off by trucks. easier than doing it by hand imo and these forklifts are easily transportable incl by air and Mi17.
even construction sites have taken to using a crane fixed onto a truck to lift large pallets of the hollow cinder blocks used to make todays buildings

these puppies are cheap but useful and rugged

OT, but came across this - 6x6 with crane for IA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoFOPPoSAYw

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 21 Aug 2017 19:39

It seems no one read the news that K9 exploded killing 5 Korean soldiers and in 5 years it had only 1700 malfunctions. Seems like T-90 type of reliability. So both T-90 and K9 are bhai bhai & import mummy ka dulara but only Arjun & Dhanush gets kicked.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 22 Aug 2017 04:39

Where is Dhanush kicked hainji?
Currently it is a lethal weapon - to own troops!

What kind of malfunctions? Context is everything and without that it is all as the saying goes: "lies, damned lies and Statistics!

I am sure you have drilled down and know more. Pray tell.

Import dulara etc are uncalled for terms - you tar everyone with the same brush....

Imagine Denel had not been blacklisted we could have the bhim in service no? From my sources good platform.

Vidur · Post by **Vidur** » 22 Aug 2017 16:37

yes Denel was a good platform. It was unfortunate what happened. But Dhanush will see the light of the day. These are teething issues. Please don't come up with conspiracy theories. There are enough people sending unsigned letters to derail armed forces modernization anyway.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 22 Aug 2017 17:28

As per Chaiwalla Denel also had serious issues during Trials. So a K-9 explodes but it is not a problem but unspecified problem with Dhanush or new INSAS had media going after it. Noone to offer whisky & women to DDM? What's left there to spoil the reputation of T90 = 100% failure in Russia and K9 self exploding malfunctioning tin can.

Take above post of Sachin, he calls Dhanush lethal to own troops without open source info but ignores detailed CAG reports of t90 barrels exploding and k9 imploding if not malfunctioning.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 22 Aug 2017 19:07

There is a problem with the dhanush or the ammo but we dont know which and that is know unless you consider three instances even before induction where the ammo has hit the muzzle break not a problem! Statistically that occurs in a batch of 6 or 10 guns what happens if this problem is not resolved and we have 400 odd guns inducted! think of the troops using it or they cannon fodder for you?

Once they identify the problem it will be inducted. Since two wrongs do not make a right do you suggest they induct without knowing what the problem is. What world do you live in..you think this stuff will be open source!!

Am I talking about the insas or arjun or t-90 - that is another story but especially with INSAS what came out of OFB less said the better...the bn armourer was quite busy lets say..i dare say if the manufacturing quality had been any good then we would not have the DDM segway into it and hijack that narrative...

Denel may have ad serious issues but there was momentum behind it and it could have been inducted. Alas we will never know. Its your chaiwala vs my chaiwalas!

The k-9 is a good platform and in the absence of a domestic alternative pray tell what...plus what was the reason for k9 imploding? one implosion without you detailing the fact as to why exactly means diddly squat!! Afterall it is not as if we are the only army using or planning to use the system yes?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 Aug 2017 19:33

Gyan: In addition to what Sachin saar said above, can you please list the 1,700 malfunctions that the K9 had in the past five years?

Vidur · Post by **Vidur** » 22 Aug 2017 19:38

That is exactly why there is a well set out testing process - so that issues can be identified and solutions found. Dhanush is going through that process and once it is done it will inducted. May I urge posters from desisting with conspiracy theories. The ministry and the army are fully behind the efforts on Dhanush. In fact the army has been a prime leader in this.

There were indeed serious issues with the INSAS and attempts have been made to address them as they came up. However they have not been uniformly successful.

Vidur · Post by **Vidur** » 22 Aug 2017 19:43

Kindly realise one reality - our system works in such a way that a minor dust particle can clog up the whole process and then we fall even further behind in modernization of the forces. A single letter making wild allegations can derail years of painstaking work on procurement of a critical item. There are various motivations behind the letter and sometimes we even have some idea who has done it but we cannot do much. It has to be investigated and depending upon the policy at that time it can be a minor irritant or a catastrophic stoppage of the process.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Aug 2017 19:44

Vidur90 wrote: May I urge posters from desisting with conspiracy theories.

Wear a helmet. On BRF this is the same as breaking your head against a brick wall.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 22 Aug 2017 19:47

While we are conncerned with the various issues that he been facced by the dhanush. In would like to ask about the 155 mm upgrade of the m 46. Both the guna have 45 cal barrel

So how was the fuse related issue not identified when the upgrade was taking place. Iirc the m 46 155 45 cal upgrade from sultan took place yearly 15 years ago.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 22 Aug 2017 19:52

Shiv saar. part of me also come here to read your posts..

infact would be happy if this became the BR group!! too much noise at times feels like a bawarchikhana if you get my drift....

Incidentally bennedose brought back lots of childhood memories of Davangere...

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 22 Aug 2017 20:02

Pratyush wrote:While we are condensed with the various issues that he been facebook by the dhanush. In would like to ask about the 155 mm upgrade of the m 46. Both the guna have 45 cal barrel

So how was the fuse related issue not identified when the upgrade was taking place. Iirc the m 46 155 45 cal upgrade from sultan took place yearly 15 years ago.

that is an interesting question with the ammo being the issue could it be that age of the ammo could be a factor and 15 years ago we had fresher ammo! just going out on a limb here. But the key point is if we figure out what is happening with dhanush then we PERHAPS could infer why it did not get picked up.
it could be
- did it not happen
or
- happened but statistically so infrequently due to our m46 holdings that we decided to live with it
or
-the issue was picked up and resolved but OFB being OFB....

Or Ramana garu has the answer!!

Srutayus · Post by **Srutayus** » 22 Aug 2017 20:02

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... zSA6O.html

Local media questioned the reliability of the K-9 howitzer, a gun meant for firing shells on high trajectories, after two South Korean soldiers died in an explosion during an artillery training session in Gangwon province on Friday.Updated: Aug 22, 2017 16:38 IST
“According to a parliamentary inquiry in 2016, there were more than 1,700 reports of K-9 artillery malfunctioning over the past five years,” the news report said.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 22 Aug 2017 20:22

Srutayus wrote:http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... zSA6O.html

Local media questioned the reliability of the K-9 howitzer, a gun meant for firing shells on high trajectories, after two South Korean soldiers died in an explosion during an artillery training session in Gangwon province on Friday.Updated: Aug 22, 2017 16:38 IST
“According to a parliamentary inquiry in 2016, there were more than 1,700 reports of K-9 artillery malfunctioning over the past five years,” the news report said.

Vidur I take things written by most journalist with a pinch of salt? We dont like the DDM but then use their news reports when it serves our purpose as this 1700 figure suggests....
may be true but what are these 1700 malfunctions over the past 60 months means there have been about 28 issues per months across 500 odd guns which is in the region of an issue a day ----BUT WHAT KIND OF ISSUES? I am not saying there may not be an issue but if we do not deal with facts we are no better than the DDM's....
BTW there was a incident with the M777 also sometime ago leading to 2 GI's loosing their lives....

Here is a possible explanation of the "implosion

"
Although the exact cause of the explosion is still under investigation, the blast appears to have been caused by the explosive that is used to propel artillery shells tow@rd targets, said the South Korean Army on Monday, citing accounts by those injured.

Ramana saar can perhaps make more sense of this...

Vidur · Post by **Vidur** » 22 Aug 2017 20:28

shiv wrote:
Vidur90 wrote: May I urge posters from desisting with conspiracy theories.
Wear a helmet. On BRF this is the same as breaking your head against a brick wall.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 22 Aug 2017 20:33

Vidur90 wrote:
shiv wrote: Wear a helmet. On BRF this is the same as breaking your head against a brick wall.

Vidur good to have you here. Stick around because amongst the dross there is some really erudite analysic here. Love to here your perspective on things..

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Aug 2017 22:16

Pratyush wrote:While we are conncerned with the various issues that he been facced by the dhanush. In would like to ask about the 155 mm upgrade of the m 46. Both the guna have 45 cal barrel

So how was the fuse related issue not identified when the upgrade was taking place. Iirc the m 46 155 45 cal upgrade from ~~sultan~~ Soltam took place yearly 15 years ago.

Good question. I wanted to bring this up.

If you carefully read the reports of 'muzzle strike' during the User Evaluation Trials of Dhanush it was pointed out that this also happened during Soltam upgrade. The lessons learned was to enlarge the muzzle diameter for the Dhanush. Yet muzzle strike happened.

I had a few pages ago show that the problem was most likely they shell and not the Dhanush.

The fact that trials were resumed validates this conclusion.

Dhanush so far had the following problems;

- Shell burst in the barrel during the initial development trials in 2012. Root cause was shell wobble or balloting. Shell was 12 years old which is within its shelf life. ( I think due to either: undersized bourrelet or driving band). COI cleared the gun and it went through user trials successfully.

- Shell burst too close to the muzzle in May 2017. Six people were injured. I think this was muzzle strike that activated the graze function of the fuze.

- Shell muzzle strike in July 2017 after trials were resumed.

The PD M572 fuze has issues in long barrel guns and is a known problem. The South Africans had a fix of adding more epoxy. This is in the Janes pdf linked by tsarkar.
The M572 is a cheap $50 fuze. If you go through the CAG report of the ammo shortages OFB is not making these anymore. They are relying on ECIl to make electronic fuzes. But small industry vendors are complaining that the new fuze requirement combines many features and puts them out of business. So soon this M572 fuze issues will be behind.

Having said that, OFB makes the M107 shell in a very modern setup (NC machines, forges, induction furnaces the works) and I see no point in blaming them. However there is a lot to be desired in how these shells are stored after delivery. The shell casing is steel and the driving band is a copper alloy that is dissimilar metals. Any moisture and wicking will cause a galvanic corrosion. The pictures of the CAG report(Ammo 2015-2016) show a dark green (verdigris) color near the driving band. This indicates galvanic corrosion. So they need to find a fix. I think a small bead of Teflon caulk on the forward of the driving band, to prevent moisture entrapment or wicking, before shipping will take care of this problem. Corrosion of the driving band cause shell instability in the barrel and during the flight.

CAG reports give a lot of information and ideally the stakeholders should use them as a feedback and benefit.

BTW the CAG report also says 105mm shells had barrel bursts on some occasions.

The T 72 barrel burst root cause was the incorrect heat treatment due to the electricity problems at the factory. This lead to partial heat treatment and resulting weakness of the barrel. So not the same issue. Please don't bring this up again or will ban you.

I will look at the K-9 reports from South Korea.

Vidur · Post by **Vidur** » 22 Aug 2017 22:20

Sachin, my comment was not directed to you. Happy to share my perspective. Do you have a specific question ?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Aug 2017 22:39

ks_sachin, I could not see the whole report as the screen freezes due to stupid ads by Hindustan Times.

Please post relevant text here if possible.

A few remarks based on what I could read there and here.
- Its a recent incident. Just last Friday.
- The 1700 issues over 5 years could be many minor ones and not major.
- Also if SoKo has these type of problems, India having them is not unique no?

BTW, 90% of problems are due to ammo.
Now the remark you wrote is that the propelling charge could be an issue. Yes from the reports it happens.

Its a wonder how Indian press is so good at getting bad news so quickly.
Looks like they were fed this info as the only news report in Google is a 15 hours ago mainland Chinese report!!!!

-----
Two reports from Yonhap News agency

http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/news/20 ... 00315.html

K-9 howitzer training halted after firing accident

2017/08/21 15:31

SEOUL, Aug. 21 (Yonhap) -- South Korea's Army said Monday it has suspended the use of K-9 Thunder self-propelled howitzers for training purposes after a deadly blast at a local firing range last week.

But it has left more than 1,000 K-9s already deployed for combat in operation.

Two Army soldiers were killed when a 155-mm K-9 blew up during a firing drill in Cheorwon, a county in the eastern province of Gangwon near the border with North Korea. Five others were wounded.

The explosion seems to be attributable to smoke from the breech that led to the combustion of gunpowder, Army investigators said.

They have yet to find out the cause for the smoke.

The Army held a joint funeral for the victims earlier in the day: a 27-year-old sergeant first class and a 22-year-old private first class. Both of them were posthumously promoted by a rank.

and

http://www.rokdrop.net/2017/08/k-9-thun ... e-injured/

One Army soldier was killed and six others were injured Friday in an explosion during an artillery firing drill, the military said.

The blast occurred on the shooting range of a front-line Army unit in Cheorwon, some 88 kilometers north of Seoul, at 3:19 p.m., according to an Army officer.

Seven servicemen were rushed to a hospital and one of them, a 27-year-old sergeant first class, died during the transport, the officer said.

“An unidentified explosion took place during the drill, injuring some people,” he said. A probe into the cause of the incident is underway, he added.

Flames erupted from inside one of the 10 K-9 Thunder self-propelled howitzers during the training session, injuring the seven soldiers attending it, according to the officer

Ok. What happened was the smoke or exhaust gases in the barrel ignited the charge prematurely.
It could be one of those rapid firing drills which did not give time to evacuate the barrel.

So even if its the propelling charge it could be the procedures that allowed this mishap.

its not the gun again.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Aug 2017 23:16

Also L&T, Samsung, Indian Army all will get copies of the report after South Korea completes their investigation.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 23 Aug 2017 02:24

Gyan, why such hostility, brother. State your point and don't point fingers. The latter is not allowed here.

Your point as I understand is that Dhanush failures are being exaggerated while failures of imported maal is being swept under the carpet. Correct?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Aug 2017 03:27

Dhanush failures are not exaggerated. They are factual. All my gnan is from public news reports.

The K-9 failure is as recent as last week. And they just buried their soldiers and to outrage about that is foolish.

Here is the initial L&T winning the contract after a competition. it was not just one vendor.

L&T bags Rs 5000 Crore contract for 100 SPG

NEW DELHI: India is finally set to get its own mobile howitzers that will reverse the longheld Pakistani battlefield edge on artillery guns.

The guns Pakistan have were supplied by the US ostensibly for the 'war on terror'. In a deal that would also fit the 'Make in India' mandate, domestic manufacturer Larsen and Toubro has emerged as the finalist for a $750-million (about Rs 5,000 crore) contract to supply 100 self-propelled artillery guns to the Indian Army.

The 155 mm artillery guns are specially designed for operation in the desert areas bordering Pakistan and have been a longstanding requirement of the Army, officials said. India's concerns over Pakistan acquiring an edge in conventional warfare escalated in 2009 when the US supplied it 115 of the modern M 109A5 cannons as a "reward" for its assistance in the war on the Afghanistan border.

The Army had then accelerated its plans to procure a similar system, but the process dragged on ..

The Vajra beat its Russian competitor on several technical grounds, including rate of fire, accuracy and mobility trials, officials said. L&T officials, however, refused to comment on the development.

This after US supplied 115 M109 SPGs under a subsidy in 2009.

Does Gyan want India to put a Dhanush on a bullock cart and use it?

What is his plan?

Where are the 1700 failures he talked about? I have wasted an hour on Google, Bing, Yahoo but got no links.

He has 24 hours to give details of the1700 failures are leave the Forum.

Enough.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Aug 2017 04:15

Gyan, are you referring to this? It could be KDM (Korean Dork Media).

Korean mishap raises doubts over reliability of Indian Army’s future artillery gun
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... zSA6O.html

“According to a parliamentary inquiry in 2016, there were more than 1,700 reports of K-9 artillery malfunctioning over the past five years,” the news report said.

Srutayus · Post by **Srutayus** » 23 Aug 2017 04:40

Here is a Korean source:
http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud= ... 46&mod=skb

The actual source is the Korean parliamentary inquiry in 2016 which can no doubt be found and read by those with ample time and knowledge of the Korean language.
The Korea Herald is a reputed paper and the reporter's email address is below the story.
It is no more or no less pubic than the reports about the Dhanush.

Gyan's post is obviously a plea to provide a level playing field to Indian systems. It need not be in the specific context of SPH systems, but for all promising that Indian systems whose potential was never realized and lost out to less capable imports such as the Nag, Arjun etc.

You may give a long leash to correct the faults in expensive imported systems cleared for induction, but please take the same or at least some effort to work with Indian developers.

Threats to ban posts that are not to ones liking in fits of pique brings little credit to the role of a forum administrator.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 23 Aug 2017 05:34

ramana wrote:ks_sachin, I could not see the whole report as the screen freezes due to stupid ads by Hindustan Times.

Please post relevant text here if possible.

A few remarks based on what I could read there and here.
- Its a recent incident. Just last Friday.
- The 1700 issues over 5 years could be many minor ones and not major.
- Also if SoKo has these type of problems, India having them is not unique no?

BTW, 90% of problems are due to ammo.
Now the remark you wrote is that the propelling charge could be an issue. Yes from the reports it happens.

Its a wonder how Indian press is so good at getting bad news so quickly.
Looks like they were fed this info as the only news report in Google is a 15 hours ago mainland Chinese report!!!!

Ramana saar the points you raised are exactly what I was raising, although you have been much more clearer in your enunciation. My point being what are the FACTS? What are these 1700 issues. Unless and untill we know what these are then this is a ridiculous discussion.

I could not even access the HT report.
I searched long a hard for info on chacha google but little other than what you have referenced.

Even the t-90s failing in Russia why? t-90 is bad and arjun is better does not answer my question.

Indian press ah that is another story but if you believe that someone fed this to DDM's - who stands to gain...Point I am trying to make is actually access to this information in a newsroom is very easy. I venture that if it was a good news day then this perhaps may not have made it to print!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Aug 2017 06:37

It was the DG Artillery who stood behind the GCF, OFB and encouraged them after the shell wobble barrel burst. They backed the Dhanush whole heartedly.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Aug 2017 06:52

Korea Herald Story

The explosion of a self-propelled howitzer that killed South Korean soldiers last week has sparked controversy over the reliability of the weapon system designed to counter North Korea’s long-range artillery units across the border.

Two South Korean soldiers were killed and five injured in an explosion inside a K-9 Thunder during artillery training Friday in Cheorwon, Gangwon Province. The training was designed to improve the accuracy of counter-artillery attacks in the event of a war with North Korea.

Although the exact cause of the explosion is still under investigation, the blast appears to have been caused by the explosive that is used to propel artillery shells toward targets, said the South Korean Army on Monday, citing accounts by those injured.

“For reasons unknown, there was smoke inside the howitzer’s breach block assembly,” an Army official said under the customary condition of anonymity. “According to our on-site investigation, three rounds of explosive were completely burned down without any trace.”

The Army decided to halt K-9 artillery firing for training purposes until it finds the exact cause of the explosion. In the meantime, the military will soon establish a comprehensive investigative panel consisting of government officials and civilian experts.

Developed by local defense manufacturer Samsung Techwin, which was renamed Hanhwa Techwin after being sold off in 2014, the K-9 was touted as a high-quality artillery unit for its long range and high rate of firing. The Defense Acquisition Program Administration signed export deals with Turkey, Poland, Finland and India.

But the performance of the K-9 came under scrutiny when two howitzers suffered malfunctions when they were engaged against North Korea’s artillery during Pyongyang’s 2010 bombardment of Yeonpyongdo, an island in the West Sea close to the border with the North.

“The K-9 artillery is a crucial part of our ground combat assets. But we continue to see the weapon system suffer from technical malfunctions and accidents,” said Rep. Lee Hae-hoon, chair of the conservative opposition Bareun Party on Monday.

According to a parliamentary inquiry in 2016, there have been more than 1,700 reports of malfunctions with the K-9 artillery over the past five years. Currently, about 500 K-9 are fielded since its prototype was produced in 1999.

But some analysts noted that the opposition party should refrain from dismissing the K-9 as a dysfunctional weapon system, saying that it is too early to tell whether the explosion was caused by a technical issue.

Following its setback during the Bombardment of Yeonpyeong, the K-9 received a series of modifications to reduce its rate of malfunction. Separately, the military revealed a plan last week to improve the K-9’s performance, including the development of an automated loading system, similar to a robotic turret.

Yang Uk, a senior research fellow at the Korea Security and Defense Forum, said the frequency of malfunctions that the K-9 has suffered is “not unusual,” noting the number is pretty much the same as that of malfunctions when driving a car.

“More than 1,000 K-9s have been produced and they suffered from 1,700 malfunctions over the past five years. It means that every K-9 suffers from about two cases of malfunction every five years. If you drive your car for five years, you might see a similar number of malfunctions,” Yang said.

By Yeo Jun-suk (jasonyeo@heraldcorp.com)

This puts the Dhanush into context.