Artillery: News & Discussion

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 07 Feb 2018 18:23

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/mbErel.aspx?relid=158191

Press Information Bureau
Government Of India
Ministry of Defence
(07-February, 2017 16:44 IST )

Gun Carriage Factory (GCF): GCF has been identified to manufacture and assemble 155mm x 45 Cal Gun ‘Dhanush’.
An indent of 114 Guns has already been placed on OFB.

re-posting from
Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
27 Mar 2017 17:59

any one can search the name Shri Vivek K Tankha u will easily get it

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 07 Feb 2018 18:27

old one ( posting for records and info )

Press Information Bureau
Government of India
Ministry of Defence
24-April-2015 16:04 IST
Ordnance Factories

There are 39 Ordnance Factories manufacturing Defence equipment.
In addition, 2 factories are at project stage (one at Korwa, UP and another at Nalanda, Bihar).

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/printrelease. ... lid=118647

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 07 Feb 2018 18:29

Good news on limited series production of ATAGS. Let's not worry about big orders yet. There's nothing that is better than this in the world. IA and MoD are supporting it.

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 07 Feb 2018 18:33

Old one -posting for records

Press Information Bureau

Government of India
Ministry of Defence
31-December-2016 20:47 IST
YEAR END REVIEW – 2016

Various Achievements Of Ministry Of Defence

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease. ... lid=156049

Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS): DRDO has taken up the task of design and development of 155mm X 52 calibre ATAGS having higher calibre, range, accuracy and consistency for the Artillery of Indian Army. The gun system will be compatible to ACCCS-Shakti command and control network being operational with the Indian Army.

More details in this link that can go in respective threads

A Deshmukh · Post by **A Deshmukh** » 07 Feb 2018 18:50

jaysimha wrote:http://pib.nic.in/newsite/mbErel.aspx?relid=158191
Gun Carriage Factory (GCF): GCF has been identified to manufacture and assemble 155mm x 45 Cal Gun ‘Dhanush’.
An indent of 114 Guns has already been placed on OFB.

I thought initially only 39 cal has been tested and had issues (barrel burst, & other ammo related).
looks like even 45cal has been testing and cleared for production.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 07 Feb 2018 21:33

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Answer : they wanted to test it. DG Arty told Commandant Arty School to provide the range. MOD came down heavily on DG Arty saying they were not allowed to do this. So army wanted to provide the range but MOD gave them a slap on the wrist.

I have mentioned this quite a few times. But see the bias in people's minds - they forget the second part.

Now it is the same institution of DG Arty who stood by Dhanush team literally like a father figure and brought it to fruition.

Akshay Sir, this is the usual rona-dhona at each turn. Posters (and some post multiple times everyday) have the fingers set on blaming the army or air force or the navy. Its convenient. Reading the DPP is inconvenient.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Feb 2018 21:44

Deejay Since you are IAF background (cant be accused of bias

) feel free to give one week bans for every one whining on this thread.
Thank you.
ramana
PS: How many times one has to be told that LSP is needed to start the initial factory production run. A whole bunch of mfg and supply chain has to be setup.

These guns will be tested extensively for doctrine etc.
Forty guns means one battery each from each mfg. 18 guns plus two spares.

Be happy the Sikkim cold climate trials went very well.
If you read first post I did on previous page, I was wary as cold climate trials are quite iffy.
The side slap can break the nose fuze as it happened often in WWI.

US Army has many documents on how this is done.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 07 Feb 2018 22:17

why would MOD do this?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Feb 2018 22:27

Do what?

nam · Post by **nam** » 07 Feb 2018 22:32

In 5 years we are from initial funding to LSP.

That is Rnd, funding from the tortoise MoD, private participation which we always crib about, IA trials and MoD LSP order!

Result a top class gun. A perfect set of production partners. A template for our future programs.

We take longer than that to buy a rifle off the shelf!

We had to wait 3 decades for it. And all it took was 5years.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 07 Feb 2018 22:52

ramana wrote:Deejay Since you are IAF background (cant be accused of bias ) feel free to give one week bans for every one whining on this thread.
Thank you.
ramana
PS: How many times one has to be told that LSP is needed to start the initial factory production run. A whole bunch of mfg and supply chain has to be setup.

These guns will be tested extensively for doctrine etc.
Forty guns means one battery each from each mfg. 18 guns plus two spares.

Be happy the Sikkim cold climate trials went very well.
If you read first post I did on previous page, I was wary as cold climate trials are quite iffy.
The side slap can break the nose fuze as it happened often in WWI.

US Army has many documents on how this is done.

Sir not 2 batteries but 2 full regiments. One Regt has 18 guns and order is for 40. So there were be one Regt each equipped with guns from one manufacturer. They will be the champion of their gun. Great move.

Also note that DRDO has to progress case through the various steps. Will be good learning for them.

Now someone here should do some serious research and find out which part of DPP will apply to this case. The greenfield 11 step process shouldn’t apply because there is no RFI and RFP. Trials are also over so user sign off has been achieved. What is needed is price negotiation and budget approval. So some bright spark find out by reading the DPP what further steps are needed.

And no stupid uninformed comments.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 07 Feb 2018 23:07

tsarkar wrote: Come on, all of you do know that limited series production is required to set up the manufacturing line and one cant magically overnight ramp up production.

There is a difference if you place an order for 400 and let the serial production ramp up in lieu of that. That mitigates risks significantly especially for a private company. It is prohibitively expensive to set up tooling for quality without the quantity.

tsarkar wrote: FWIW, here are the projected orders for ATAGS

https://flic.kr/p/WKVVDw

And BrahMos, Pinaka, Akash, Astra, Dhruv and Tejas all are following the limited series production model. For Dhruv, the definitive MkIII model was evolved and ordered.

Yes, there is hope. But why this long and winded process for desi products only?

tsarkar wrote: For F-16 orders were ramped up similarly
2 YF-16 prototypes
8 FSD
94 Block 1
197 Block 5
312 Block 10
983 Block 15
150 Block 20
244 Block 25
733 Block 30/32
615 Block 40/42

I did not want to bring America in here. But, the above information is incorrect. This is how the F-16 were produced, not how the orders were placed. F-16 was kind of unique that USA and nations (Belgium, Denmark, Netherlands, and Norway) decided to produce the aircraft together. Early in the program, they had decided that the plane will developed in tranches and the improvements will be pulled in as soon as possible. The orders were not made to wait for the development of the tranches. Here are some landmarks on the timeline of the F-16. Note the order of the events.

- By August 1975, during the testing of the 2 prototypes, USAF announced plans to procure at least 650 aircraft, EPAF orders 384 aircraft.
- In Dec 1975, the production of the first 8 FSD (equivalent of our LSP)aircraft begin. On 20th Oct, 1976 the first FSD aircraft is rolled out. First flight Dec, 1976.
- In Jan 1977, USAF says that it plans to procure additional 783 F-16s.
- In 1978, before volume production is about to start, confirmed orders from USAF+EPAF stand at 998 (614+384). As you can see this is significantly larger than the number of Block 1, Block 5 and Block 10 aircrafts put together. This allowed the manufacturer to ramp up to 80 aircraft from 1978 to 1979, and to near 190 in 1980.
- In 1978, F-16 wouldn't hadn't crossed FOC requirements. By the time it does so in 1980, nearly 300 aircraft had already been produced! By the way, in 1980, it still hadn't fired a medium range AAM, or done aerial refueling and was having problems with the gun.

If the F-16 ordering model is a benchmark, ours procurement doesn't hold a candle to it. And if so, how do we expect to manufacturing to do so.

tsarkar wrote: ATAGS in on the right track and needless speculation is uncalled for.

The voices coming out of the Army do suggest so. I am just unhappy that the rubber is not hitting the paper where it matters.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 07 Feb 2018 23:12

Indranil you carry on your biases and ignore everything that has been written above. I’m not going to allow you to lead a lynch mob here.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 07 Feb 2018 23:17

If ATAGS is ready to be inducted where does that leave the Dhanush?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 07 Feb 2018 23:22

Believe it or not, Akshay sir, when Vidur sir first took me to school on the DPP, I read the whole damn document. Not once, but two or three times (because I found it confusing and kept forgetting things).

MoD sanctions a request for procurement, and the DPP spells out the procedure. The DPP or MoD does not set the number. For example the number of Tejas, Arjun, ATAGs, Apache, M777, PC-7 to be procured don't come from MoD*. They come from the respective forces. If you could show any section of the DPP which specifies the numbers of articles to be got, or even a procedure to determine that number, I will not say one more word.

In fact, I have said my last on this. I have nothing more to add and no points to win.

* Except for geopolitical procurements and some herobazi by the poilitical class. Rajiv ji got the Mirages and Bofors. Modiji abruptly cut MMRCA orders from 128 to 36.

nam · Post by **nam** » 07 Feb 2018 23:31

nachiket wrote:If ATAGS is ready to be inducted where does that leave the Dhanush?

My impression: ATAGS is our gorilla, with all the bells and whistle. Since Dhanush is lighter than ATAGS, it can go to places where the gorilla cannot go. Where Dhanush cannot go, M777 will go.

We will need all the three types. It takes care of IA biggest bugbear. Weight.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Feb 2018 23:36

nachiket, IA needs all ATAGS and Dhanush, and M777.

Eventually the Bofors will be retired too.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Feb 2018 23:41

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Indranil you carry on your biases and ignore everything that has been written above. I’m not going to allow you to lead a lynch mob here.

Akshay, to be fair. The MOD doesn't decide the numbers to be purchased, until and unless MOF raises an objection and the MOD has to go back and trim the procurement or have it stuck in negotiations. Its the forces who decide the numbers or project the required quantity and at best MOD can only act to curtail them if funds are a challenge, for instance the IAF decided it needed 123 Tejas (after MOD/RM intervention to have them all be at the Mk1/Mk1A level) and the IA has stuck to 124 Arjun Mk1 and some 118 or thereabouts Mk2. The DRDO has long campaigned for a minimum Arjun order of 500 units to allow for local production of the MTU and RENK powertrain at BHEL, plus local assembly of the stabilization and other programs, that didn't occur either.

Note, in this case, it can very well be a well thought out decision by all stakeholders to gradually set up a production line etc and validate each step. But there is a point to Indranil's commentary that local industry is VERY frustrated with the piecemeal orders by the services-MOD combine for local gear & the MII initiative is as a result, still criticized for being too slow & not having delivered on big-ticket platform programs. Without getting into boring details, many MSMEs are scathing about services tapping them for various spares and other gear, and then not placing orders when the risk taking private industry finally develops the item. From the developer perspective, its very hard to develop an ecosystem of any sort to meet services requirement in any form, when such limited orders are placed for highly complex items.

Somewhere along the way, MOD & services both have to open up the purse strings, as a matter of policy to develop national infrastructure.

Which then goes back to GOI policy of spending limited amounts on defense.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 07 Feb 2018 23:43

During your perusal of the DPP did you happen to come across the first step. It’s called AON - Acceptance of Necessity. It is accepted at DAC. That’s where the number is decided. Actual procurement of the numbers depends upon final sanction by DAC , CCS and FIN Ministry at every stage of the order ! So if AON is for 1000 that doesn’t mean that sanction will come for 1000 in one go. It will come step by step and numbers can be changed by sanctioning authorities anytime depending on budget. Annual budget not the 5 year plan that is meaningless as Vidurji pointed out.

The need for ATAGS is well over a 1000. I will dig out AON for it if I can. The point here is LSP. Why is that so hard for you to understand.

Let’s leave this discussion here.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Feb 2018 23:49

AON is again decided with the involvement of the services. So far, and I think this needs to be pointed out, our orders for domestic platforms - of the most complex kind, are somewhat lackluster. We simply cant supplant T-90s with anemic Arjun orders. It is that which breeds skepticism both in forum members and domestic industry.

The need for ATAGs is there, but lets look at the huge delay in Pinaka orders to see the skepticism for the path ahead. After the first handful of regiments, how many years has it taken for follow on orders to be cleared or progressed?

And as regards LSP, that's just semantics. We have procured first of a kind imported gear in substantial numbers.
We procured R-77s en masse, they failed. The Astra is going through a LSP phase, but I am yet to see any indications of substantial orders for the type while Derby-ER seems to be the new flavor in town.

Point is we have often invested in foreign MICs based on faith that they will deliver.

If we want to be absolutely risk averse, and procure only properly validated items, then yes, LSP procurement makes sense. However, from the viewpoint of developing substantial industrial infrastructure, its a slow process which will ensure many engineering firms will just avoid defence as the payoff is too slow for long term investment.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 07 Feb 2018 23:51

When I said that nation cannot be defended at 1.35 pct if GDP and showed how even UK spends about 1.9 and that we need atleast 3 pct I was told that 1.35 is enough because that is 11 pct of total govt spending. Nachiket said that. What is it that you people want ? Every time there is some news some people want to take pot shots. And all other data points are conveniently forgotten.

The number here is not an issue. The point is LSP. If that’s inconvenient to someone’s world view of thinking they know better and always wanting to attack the forces then perhaps I’m wasting my time here and should reconsider being here.

I agree that industry needs support. Completely agree. In fact Vidur also mentioned it. But then there is pressure from OFB and others against it. The IFV tender was stuck that way.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Feb 2018 23:57

Akshay, with due respect

"The number here is not an issue. The point is LSP. If that’s inconvenient to someone’s world view of thinking they know better and always wanting to attack the forces then perhaps I’m wasting my time here and should reconsider being here. "

Everytime somebody brings a different point of view, are you going to consider depriving the forum of your viewpoint?

Next:

When I said that nation cannot be defended at 1.35 pct if GDP and showed how even UK spends about 1.9 and that we need atleast 3 pct I was told that 1.35 is enough because that is 11 pct of total govt spending. Nachiket said that. What is it that you people want ? Every time there is some news some people want to take pot shots. And all other data points are conveniently forgotten.

Yes, this is an issue. However, there are many big ticket procurements that are going on in parallel, which could have been optimized.

For instance see this:
The ARVs were a wasted contract.
http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/o ... ts/956491/

We continue to buy T-90s despite earlier procurements being a mess.
Smerch had issues & had design flaws.

Point being there is definitely something broken across the entire combine & we should seek to ramp up local industry as fast as possible.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Feb 2018 00:01

BTW at this point, i would fully support the Dhanush orders being shifted to ATAGs. The Dhanush continues to have issues.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 08 Feb 2018 00:05

Akshay Kapoor wrote:When I said that nation cannot be defended at 1.35 pct if GDP and showed how even UK spends about 1.9 and that we need atleast 3 pct I was told that 1.35 is enough because that is 11 pct of total govt spending. Nachiket said that.

Sir, I did not mean to say that it is enough, but that there is no practical way of significantly increasing it at the moment (as a % of GDP) without something drastically changing in the economy that increases the government's revenues.
All we can hope for is to be able to better utilize the available budget to get the most bang for the buck. I'm sure everybody agrees there is room for improvement there.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Feb 2018 00:09

^^ I used to think political economy was a joke of a term. As I grow (reluctantly) older, I am beginning to think it is the only thing that matters. All the other stuff we debate on this forum about MIC, keynesian, this that, seems to be an after the fact belief system of explaining how our political masters allocate taxpayers money to different interest groups while somehow spending "something" on infra etc.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 08 Feb 2018 00:13

Karan there are too many view points not enough facts. I frankly don’t have the time and energy to deal in viewpoints. We are trying to take the standard of discussion higher yet it is derailed every time. Even Vidur has tried to point out the bias. I have gone hoarse saying that Arty wanted to give facilities to test Bharat 52 but was given a rap on their knuckles. Dhanush exists because of army pushing for it.

I have gone hoarse pointing out Gen Hasnain as a bde commander then div commander and the corps commander had to go keep reinitiang the case for a wall in URI garisson.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 08 Feb 2018 00:17

Back to topic. I will now delete all posts that go off topic and any more Rona dhona on this.

Defaulters will earn bans.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Feb 2018 00:23

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Karan there are too many view points not enough facts. I frankly don’t have the time and energy to deal in viewpoints. We are trying to take the standard of discussion higher yet it is derailed every time. Even Vidur has tried to point out the bias. I have gone hoarse saying that Arty wanted to give facilities to test Bharat 52 but was given a rap on their knuckles. Dhanush exists because of army pushing for it.

Akshay, the RM has fixed the test facilities issue. Agree on Dhanush. I remain a skeptic on whether OFB can justify the hope IA has vested in it.

Second, what I have posted is also factual. There have been procurement cases wherein the LSP approach has not been adopted for foreign procured items & mass deals were stuck for first of a kind items. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't.

So, from the "fix things before they break" perspective, no issues with the LSP approach. However, from the building industry perspective, its simply not enough. Till the powers that be realize this, we simply will not grow a massive MIC ecosystem, that's all I am saying. There are vendors who work on programs for specific capability. They each represent valuable capability, and in an ideal world we should have had 10-15 in each area, at least 7-8, instead there are fewer, because we move so parsimoniously with local programs.

If your viewpoint is that the decision to do this is fully with the MOD, then that's fine. However, all I am saying is for some programs like the T-90, we should have supported the local alternative, the Arjun, more. Cases like these exist as well.

I have gone hoarse pointing out Gen Hasnain as a bde commander then div commander and the corps commander had to go keep reinitiang the case for a wall in URI garisson.

Things like these have been fixed as well. A bit late, but some positive progress.
https://www.telegraphindia.com/1160908/ ... 107004.jsp
http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/ ... 27884.html
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 265478.ece

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Feb 2018 00:33

KaranM, Maybe the LSP route for domestic is to setup the production line. The foreign vendor already has a production line setup and is selling them products internationally.

Its not a trial purchase to see if product works.
And shame on the supplier who sold shoddy goods and the people who accepted them.

At the end of the day the system(MOD, MOF, IA) has ordered 40 arty guns on LSP and that's a good thing.

I don't understand why it has to be critiqued and seen as a bad decision.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 08 Feb 2018 00:34

Karan No they haven’t changed. There is still a financial advisor required to validate the Army commanders decision. Pls read Gen hansians article that I posted on border watch thread yesterday. URI happened because the wall was not there. See the condition of facilities on LC - toilets you will never use in your life , cooking facilities terrible , un hardened defences. And we are paying the price everyday.

Agree on giving certainty to Industry. Tata SED and BF are stalwarts and have done a lot and we simply cannot afford to not give them support. Maybe LSP approach is wrong but if you take out the CAG and cya caution etc and there are enough funds and MOF sanctions then sure give order for 500 guns each. No one will be happier than the army and me. But don’t blame the army. That’s downright incorrect. The article on Dhanush itself says that Finanxe wing of mod is now questioning the price.

I highlighted these parts of the article and yet people don’t bother to read because they have ‘opinions’.

nam · Post by **nam** » 08 Feb 2018 00:40

ATAGS is probably is the only in -development system that has been personally visited by RM & IA Chief during it's trials in Mahajan range.

So i feel there is support right from the top of the food chain.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Feb 2018 00:41

Akshay-ji: Just one question. What "military" authority does the Babu in the Finance Wing of the MoD have to question the price? Or is he / she just looking at Dhanush and comparing it with another gun on price? And yes I am aware, that he has a valid say in the purchase. But he / she must have some military competence or knowledge, before a decision is made.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 08 Feb 2018 00:41

And I also strongly agree that it’s far better to trust TATA SED BF and L&T on greenfield ventures than someone else either domestic or foreign. They are highly committed and highly competent.

I will also say that Baba Kalyani is a visionary. If he is allowed to he can change India’s MIL. I’m not sure who else I can say that about in the corporate sector.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 08 Feb 2018 00:45

Rakesh wrote:Akshay-ji: Just one question. What "military" authority does the Babu in the Finance Wing of the MoD have to question the price? Or is he / she just looking at Dhanush and comparing it with another gun on price?

It’s not a military matter. Military matter ends with trials. Now it’s commerial. I see his point of view. He needs to show an audit trail on now price was agreed. Is it cost plus , what is international benchmark, how does he do price discovery. If he asks no questions allegations might be levied. CAG might ask. Rahul Gandhi might ask - after all order is to a pvt company. Corruption allegations can come.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Feb 2018 00:58

ramana wrote:KaranM, Maybe the LSP route for domestic is to setup the production line. The foreign vendor already has a production line setup and is selling them products internationally.

Its not a trial purchase to see if product works.
And shame on the supplier who sold shoddy goods and the people who accepted them.

Reference the part in bold:

The foreign vendor, despite having that line often cons the Indian MOD, services, DPSU combine (not like the last cares, they just screwdriver the things together).

We are caught between a rock and a hard place. Rock, the urgency to import because of operational necessity. And the other, the fact that we don't have significant domestic industry because funds keep getting soaked up in imports.

At the end of the day the system(MOD, MOF, IA) has ordered 40 arty guns on LSP and that's a good thing.

I don't understand why it has to be critiqued and seen as a bad decision.

Its the penny pinching part that is frustrating. You have a gun that works. Order it in number & provide the suppliers the wherewithal and confidence to scale. Note, I am not saying order a thousand guns - but at least some 100 odd units.

Our babu-CAG-this-that system is not all conducive to scale up industrial development.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Feb 2018 01:03

Akshay Kapoor wrote:It’s not a military matter. Military matter ends with trials. Now it’s commerial. I see his point of view. He needs to show an audit trail on now price was agreed. Is it cost plus , what is international benchmark, how does he do price discovery. If he asks no questions allegations might be levied. CAG might ask. Rahul Gandhi might ask - after all order is to a pvt company. Corruption allegations can come.

Akshay-ji: Who in the MoD determines what is the international benchmark? Is it as simple as taking the 155mm, 45 calibre, Dhanush gun and comparing it with another 155mm, 45 calibre, foreign gun based solely on price? Because after all, he is not doing any military comparison.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Feb 2018 01:04

Akshay Kapoor wrote:And I also strongly agree that it’s far better to trust TATA SED BF and L&T on greenfield ventures than someone else either domestic or foreign. They are highly committed and highly competent.

I will also say that Baba Kalyani is a visionary. If he is allowed to he can change India’s MIL. I’m not sure who else I can say that about in the corporate sector.

IMHO a lot of stalwarts including L&T's Mr Naik, the gentleman at TATA power SED Mr Chaudhary, a long list of industrial participants in our defence programs. I regret to say our red tape driven procedures have literally wrapped many of our industrial giants in limbo.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Feb 2018 01:06

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Karan No they haven’t changed. There is still a financial advisor required to validate the Army commanders decision. Pls read Gen hansians article that I posted on border watch thread yesterday. URI happened because the wall was not there. See the condition of facilities on LC - toilets you will never use in your life , cooking facilities terrible , un hardened defences. And we are paying the price everyday.

Disappointing. You can trust a commander with the right to send thousands of men into battle, but are worried about a few crores. Our babucracy is insanity run amuck.

Agree on giving certainty to Industry. Tata SED and BF are stalwarts and have done a lot and we simply cannot afford to not give them support. Maybe LSP approach is wrong but if you take out the CAG and cya caution etc and there are enough funds and MOF sanctions then sure give order for 500 guns each. No one will be happier than the army and me. But don’t blame the army. That’s downright incorrect. The article on Dhanush itself says that Finanxe wing of mod is now questioning the price.

I highlighted these parts of the article and yet people don’t bother to read because they have ‘opinions’.

Fair points.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 08 Feb 2018 01:09

If Dhanush has failed, then why not give the Bharat-52 a chance to fill the gap till the ATAGS is fully ready to be inducted?

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 08 Feb 2018 01:11

Rakesh wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:It’s not a military matter. Military matter ends with trials. Now it’s commerial. I see his point of view. He needs to show an audit trail on now price was agreed. Is it cost plus , what is international benchmark, how does he do price discovery. If he asks no questions allegations might be levied. CAG might ask. Rahul Gandhi might ask - after all order is to a pvt company. Corruption allegations can come.
Akshay-ji: Who in the MoD determines what is the international benchmark? Is it as simple as taking the 155mm, 45 calibre, Dhanush gun and comparing it with another 155mm, 45 calibre, foreign gun based solely on price? Because after all, he is not doing any military comparison.

I have no idea. And frankly I dont think the relavent person in MOD has an idea what the price should be. Anyway this is ATAGs not Dhanush. Dhanush price is set by cost plus margin basis by OFB. Being OFB no questions will
Be asked and that’s anyway their model - cost plus a big margin.

Poor pvt industry will not get the same treatment. But some way will be found. Most pragmatic is industry should over invoice by 10 pct. let MOD negotiate down by 10 pct.