Artillery: News & Discussion

[ramana]

KaranM, Even in US which is a fountain head of mass production LSP type orders are given to setup the production line. Please do look at Industrial Engineering Learning Curve tables for a production run of 20 each. The line stabilizes after the first 5 but still defects show up.

All I am saying is don't take our frustrations with low orders and short cut the process. They are doing the right thing...


BTW A.M. Naik was a stalwart of the L&T Powai works and made his reputation in the making the PHWR components.

Rakesh Its called fact finding and is an involved process when you don't have past benchmarks. You need to compare to similar product and take into account complexity, technology, industrial capability etc. factors.

Those Accounting cats are good.
And get within ball park.

[Rakesh]

Askhay-ji, agree on Dhanush. Moving on to ATAGS, I believe it is the archaic rules of babudom at play. That train is never late. Always on time.

For a LSP order of 40 ATAGS, it gives the Tier 2 and Tier 3 suppliers very little incentive to invest beyond the bare bones minimum to make the parts for the 40 pieces. From a Tier 2 or Tier 3 supplier standpoint, the profit margin is not much.

What the MoD should be doing is signing at least a letter of intent for 40 LSPs + 360 SPs pieces. That gives the Tier 2 and Tier 3 suppliers to invest in production and quality. The problem lies with the MoD and no one else.

[Akshay Kapoor]

If Dhanush has failed, then why not give the Bharat-52 a chance to fill the gap till the ATAGS is fully ready to be inducted?

Don’t think Dhanush has failed. Order for 114 is there. OFB will not allow ATAGS if Dhanush is taken out of the mix. As it is they raised hell for ATAGS.

ATAGS is some way from induction. Technically no issues. trials were successful. User sign off has been achieved. But now DRDO has to process case through the ministry to final contract. I had asked someone to do research and find out what steps next to order placement.

[Akshay Kapoor]

Rakesh sure. But budgetary support must be there for that. Problem is at every step final sanction comes form MOF and that bears 0 relationship to DAC approval , CCS approval or indeed the ridiculous document called a 5 year pls. It all depends on that years budget mood.

So letter of intent must carry some legal status. And that govt won’t agree to.

[ramana]

These two units were development units.
The 40 LSP is 20 each which will be used for UET.
And then come the rest of the units.

I agree Dhanush did not fail. It was the OFB made shell that has issues.

The old Frontline article had said Dhanush trials should resume in 2018.

Lets see.

[ramana]

So were was the price for Dhanush disputed?

[Rakesh]

Rakesh sure. But budgetary support must be there for that. Problem is at every step final sanction comes form MOF and that bears 0 relationship to DAC approval , CCS approval or indeed the ridiculous document called a 5 year pls. It all depends on that years budget mood.

So letter of intent must carry some legal status. And that govt won’t agree to.

+108! And there in, lies the disconnect. As usual, MoD shenanigans at play. As I said before, that train is never late.

[Akshay Kapoor]

So were was the price for Dhanush disputed?

It wasn’t. It’s the ATAGS price that has been questioned. By dept of defence finance. Perhaps it’s part of the price discovery process. In my view a reasonable amount of price discovery is essential in any commercial negotiation.

[ramana]

Can you point that to me?
Thanks.

[ramana]

Can you point that to me?
Thanks.

This will cost around Rs 900 crore even as the finance wing of the MoD wants a price check

Ok got it.


So the Rs 900 core is to setup two production lines and make 40 units.

I think the Finance wing is allocating all the costs to the guns Rs/ 900/45 is Rs 20 crores.

We had Dhanush figures earlier in this thread. Will dig them.

They were substantially less as the OFB factory is already amortized.

[Akshay Kapoor]

It’s in the tribune article. I had highlighted it in bold in earlier post. Now I’m gym. Came home early for going gym and now I have spent 2 hours correcting misconceptions. One grenade thrown and shrapnel flies for a long time.

Good night.

[ramana]

OK. Dhanush is Rs 14 cores per gun or $2.1 M

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhanush_howitzer

So Rs 20 crores is not bad for the longer and more complex ATAGS gun especially for the first 40 units.


Akshay Got it.

[JTull]

OK. Dhanush is Rs 14 cores per gun or $2.1 M

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhanush_howitzer

So Rs 20 crores is not bad for the longer and more complex ATAGS gun especially for the first 40 units.


Akshay Got it.

There's a crucial difference between the two. For OFBs the capital investment and salaries are paid by govt on top of the 14cr unit price which essentially just covers the raw materials and other consumables. For ATAGS, salaries are definitely included in the 20cr unit price. Possibly the capital investment will also have to be done by the private sector firm themselves, perhaps on the back of an assured order. It looks govt paid them development costs only.

This kind of accounting is frequent folly of budget watchers in India. For example, DRDO/ISRO/DAE budgets do not include salaries. Each Isro launch has a cost associated with it but does not include salaries, or amortised infrastructure or development costs. HAL is quoting certain unit prices for LCA Tejas, knowing fully well that setup costs of the assembly line will be paid separately (3rd line has 50/50 share between IAF and internal accruals).

[ramana]

For comparison the M-777 gun costs Rs 35 crores each


Link

[sudeepj]

Apologies in advance.. But could not resist.

How BR turns good news into bad news:-

Doctor: Congratulations, you are now a father!
BR Dad 1: Lets compare the height and weight percentiles.. (comparing M777 ER to ATAGs. Looking at you Singha ji)
BR Dad 2: My wife took 3 full days to deliver.. and that too through cesarean. Pados wali gave natural birth in 2 hours. Not cost effective. What we need is new private sector wife. (Random DRDO hater)
BR Dad 3: Only twins??? Does not compare well with Octo-mom.. She made 8 babies at once! (Looking at you Indranil ji)
BR Dad 4: (Does self evaluation..) My performance does not compare well with Sharma ji ka ladka. He impregnated the whole mohalla and is dad several times over.



The 40 gun order is to iron out production issues and to allow the two manufacturers to set up production lines so they can then bid on the much larger 1000 gun order. That would be the sensible thing to do as the two manufacturers themselves dont have experience bidding/making such complex systems. In the absence of this, its likely that both manufacturers will give exaggerated bids to cover the uncertainties of production..

[srai]

... The 40 gun order is to iron out production issues and to allow the two manufacturers to set up production lines so they can then bid on the much larger 1000 gun order. That would be the sensible thing to do as the two manufacturers themselves don't have experience bidding/making such complex systems. In the absence of this, its likely that both manufacturers will give exaggerated bids to cover the uncertainties of production.

Except in Indian Defense acquisition process, the time lag between first order (or setup order) to subsequent order is not seamless. It's not time bound and doesn't factor in production lead-times required for 12-36 months. Time and time again we see lots of gaps in production where factories sit idle for unpredictable amounts of time. Subsequent orders should not be done in a piecemeal fashion but should be done with the industry in mind on the quantities that are required for production viability and continuity before jumping to the next best set of features. If you listen to the Indian industries they have been saying this over and over again as far as I remember from articles in the 1980/90s to recent ones.

[sudeepj]

For Brahmos and for ALH, the orders were fairly seamless, I think the orders were kept flowing.

In this case, the need for large numbers of Guns is well known. They could invite bids from the two companies and award the contract to the L1, but what will the companies that havent even built carbines earlier base their bids on? They will simply assume the worst case scenario and offer a bid covers all uncertainties. The 20 guns to each will allow both competitors to establish production lines and offer a competitive bid. Winner will take most, loser will get a consolation prize.

[srai]

^^^
Remains to be seen if that actually happens. In the past, that hasn’t been the case.

[ramana]

We ignore the role of corruption by politicians in all this delays.

First time we have a sincere cabinet.
And in power for less than 4 years.

[shiv]

Apologies in advance.. But could not resist.

How BR turns good news into bad news:-

Doctor: Congratulations, you are now a father!
BR Dad 1: Lets compare the height and weight percentiles.. (comparing M777 ER to ATAGs. Looking at you Singha ji)
BR Dad 2: My wife took 3 full days to deliver.. and that too through cesarean. Pados wali gave natural birth in 2 hours. Not cost effective. What we need is new private sector wife. (Random DRDO hater)
BR Dad 3: Only twins??? Does not compare well with Octo-mom.. She made 8 babies at once! (Looking at you Indranil ji)
BR Dad 4: (Does self evaluation..) My performance does not compare well with Sharma ji ka ladka. He impregnated the whole mohalla and is dad several times over.

[Vivek K]

deleted iditotic and incorrect comment. Pls keep quiet if you have nothing to contribute.

mod - Akshay

[Pratyush]

Problem is we're getting stillborns onlee!! Look at Marut, Arjun and now LCA.

That is not a fair assessment of the situation and is incorrect at multiple levels.

[Akshay Kapoor]

Pratyush I am glad you had a sensible reaction to that comment. Well done. Now guys don't rise to the bait. Comment has been deleted.

[Akshay Kapoor]

Apologies in advance.. But could not resist.

How BR turns good news into bad news:-

Doctor: Congratulations, you are now a father!
BR Dad 1: Lets compare the height and weight percentiles.. (comparing M777 ER to ATAGs. Looking at you Singha ji)
BR Dad 2: My wife took 3 full days to deliver.. and that too through cesarean. Pados wali gave natural birth in 2 hours. Not cost effective. What we need is new private sector wife. (Random DRDO hater)
BR Dad 3: Only twins??? Does not compare well with Octo-mom.. She made 8 babies at once! (Looking at you Indranil ji)
BR Dad 4: (Does self evaluation..) My performance does not compare well with Sharma ji ka ladka. He impregnated the whole mohalla and is dad several times over.



The 40 gun order is to iron out production issues and to allow the two manufacturers to set up production lines so they can then bid on the much larger 1000 gun order. That would be the sensible thing to do as the two manufacturers themselves dont have experience bidding/making such complex systems. In the absence of this, its likely that both manufacturers will give exaggerated bids to cover the uncertainties of production..

Hahahaha

[Akshay Kapoor]

For Brahmos and for ALH, the orders were fairly seamless, I think the orders were kept flowing.

In this case, the need for large numbers of Guns is well known. They could invite bids from the two companies and award the contract to the L1, but what will the companies that havent even built carbines earlier base their bids on? They will simply assume the worst case scenario and offer a bid covers all uncertainties. The 20 guns to each will allow both competitors to establish production lines and offer a competitive bid. Winner will take most, loser will get a consolation prize.

No, BF atleast has a good handle on arty and are quite committed. TATA SED has been known to support projects even at a loss so they have also demosntrated commitment many times. Competence of both is unquestionable. They are world beaters - BF owns half the global forging market. So I have no worries on their count. They will do a great job. If budgets allow and the process allows a larger order might be quite useful. Hopefully it will come soon after the 1st order. Remember order is not placed yet, DRDO has to navigate the case through the process. It will take some time.

[tsarkar]

https://www.telegraphindia.com/1160908/ ... 107004.jsp

From the same link,

Each operational commander, designated as competent financial authority, will have two ceilings for the amount of funds he can spend at a time: one defined by consultation with an internal/integrated financial auditor and another that the commander may make at his own discretion subject to government conditions.

So spending power lies with Integrated Financial Auditor who is more powerful than the General/Admiral.

They are from Indian Defence Accounts Service, a Group A Civil Service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Services_of_India

I know a hilarious case of a Commander, whose wife joined IDAS after marriage, and later on became IFA to Flag Officer C-in-C Western Naval Command. In official functions, she sat next to Admiral. She was allocated a bungalow equivalent to the Admiral while her husband was on the waitlist for a flat. The entire NWWA hierarchy went red faced and topsy turvy with every woman member cursing women's empowerment

[Akshay Kapoor]

Vidur has pointed this IDAS (Indian Defence Accounts Service) and IDS (Indian Defence Service ) issues out many times but who listens on BRF ?

[tsarkar]

FWIW, here are the projected orders for ATAGS https://flic.kr/p/WKVVDw And BrahMos, Pinaka, Akash, Astra, Dhruv and Tejas all are following the limited series production model. For Dhruv, the definitive MkIII model was evolved and ordered.

Yes, there is hope. But why this long and winded process for desi products only?

Because for every desi product, there is a long and winded process for setting up a production line. You know production engineering well. A line had to be set up for BrahMos, Pinaka, Akash, Astra, Dhruv and Tejas from zero. Same for ATAGS. The LSP is not so much for end user use but to set up the line, establish workflows & processes, Quality Control, subcontractor base and raw material supplier base. On the other hand, Lockheed etc had well established production processes.

[ramana]

Thanks. Great summary. Lots of info to digest and how messed up we are.


So BEL fuze facility is tie-up with Reshef of Israel.

http://www.resheffuzes.com/index.aspx

ARDE did work on fuzes for HSLD and these were made by OFB. Somehow they were prone to mishaps and OFB removed all traces of their involvement,
Same with ARDE.

I think the Director Of Artillery should give ARDE 6 months to put up or shut up on the PGK fuze they are developing.

As back-up he should give a development contract with Reshef to develop and produce this product in India for both artillery and mortars. It should also be adapted for Naval Guns.

Link to Contract Fuze Development by Reshef:


http://www.resheffuzes.com/page.aspx?id=10004

They can open an office in Pune to leverage the Armament R&D labs in that neighborhood.

This PGK fuze is that important.

[Rakesh]

From Make In India To Making In India: Q And A With Baba Kalyani
https://swarajyamag.com/magazine/from-m ... ba-kalyani

Babasaheb Neelkanth Kalyani, chairman and managing director of the Kalyani group, speaks with Swarajya on indigenous defence production, Make in India, the guns and and engines developed by his group, and much more, in this interview.

[VinodTK]

From Make In India To Making In India: Q And A With Baba Kalyani
https://swarajyamag.com/magazine/from-m ... ba-kalyani

Babasaheb Neelkanth Kalyani, chairman and managing director of the Kalyani group, speaks with Swarajya on indigenous defence production, Make in India, the guns and and engines developed by his group, and much more, in this interview.

^^^

We’ve now developed a small jet engine. We designed it from scratch and we were successful with the very first attempt. Now we are building a bigger jet engine and we will keep developing new things. We believe in spiral technology development.

What is the category of the jet engine that you have developed?

This is a smaller engine (for UAVs—unmanned aerial vehicles — and drones), and has about 120kg thrust. We will now target a 400kg thrust, then we will go to a helicopter engine, which is a 1,100kg thrust.

[Rakesh]

^^^ Vinod Saar, check this out....so relevant to above....

You can't Make In India, if you don't Invent In India, says Nobel laureate
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 762289.cms

"The government of India, as well as politicians involved in decision making, should understand that you cannot have technology if you do not have strong basics in basic sciences. I know of the popular slogan here, 'Make In India', but you cannot Make In India if you do not Invent In India. And to Invent In India, you have to discover the basics in India," the Nobel laureate told TOI in an exclusive interview here. He said one can always rely on things that have been discovered elsewhere. "But I think it's important that if you want to have good people, good scientists, you have to attract them to science. To be attracted to science you need curiosity, you need to be driven by passion and curiosity," Haroche said.

[ramana]

My slogan was "You can't innovate what you don't make!"
he is standing it on its head.

There is a big movement worldwide to create innovation rather than adding 10% value and taking a cut.

This is so true:
\

"But I think it's important that if you want to have good people, good scientists, you have to attract them to science. To be attracted to science you need curiosity, you need to be driven by passion and curiosity," Haroche said.

I am very, very curious.

[Eric Leiderman]

Yes, there is hope. But why this long and winded process for desi products only?

Because for every desi product, there is a long and winded process for setting up a production line. You know production engineering well. A line had to be set up for BrahMos, Pinaka, Akash, Astra, Dhruv and Tejas from zero. Same for ATAGS. The LSP is not so much for end user use but to set up the line, establish workflows & processes, Quality Control, subcontractor base and raw material supplier base. On the other hand, Lockheed etc had well established production processes.

The other possibility is shortage of capital funds for procurement. So it might be a combination of both these points

[Vips]

From Make In India To Making In India: Q And A With Baba Kalyani
https://swarajyamag.com/magazine/from-m ... ba-kalyani

Babasaheb Neelkanth Kalyani, chairman and managing director of the Kalyani group, speaks with Swarajya on indigenous defence production, Make in India, the guns and and engines developed by his group, and much more, in this interview.

Fantastic achievement by Baba Kalyani. Mr Kalyani inspite of not having an assured revenue stream from the Military has invested personal wealth, time and efforts and strived to deliver something of value to our forces.

[shiv]

Fantastic achievement by Baba Kalyani. A big slap on the face of the Tatas, Mahindras, Hindujas and others

Please pardon me for making this observation, but I will be frank

In school more than 45 years ago there was a hymn we were made to sing in which two lines went:

O magnify the lord with me
With me exalt his name

Which meant - the Lord's greatness can be shown by comparing with my smallness. I always felt - if the Lord is great - why compare with me? He is great on his own no? No need to compare with what I think are small fry.

Baba Kalyani's work is commendable but I doubt if it is necessary to "magnify Baba Kalyani and exalt his name" by putting down Tata and Mahindra. They are doing their own work in their way. No need to mock our own companies with a contemptuous dismissal to show up someone else as great.

[Sid]

Baba ji is just marketing his merchandise, no need to get emotional, and start name calling other Indian companies.

TCS I know works really hard, and has really invested in Indian defense sector. It's almost impossible to get into Indian Gov business for a private player, but they have been there patiently for a long time.

[Akshay Kapoor]

From Make In India To Making In India: Q And A With Baba Kalyani
https://swarajyamag.com/magazine/from-m ... ba-kalyani

Babasaheb Neelkanth Kalyani, chairman and managing director of the Kalyani group, speaks with Swarajya on indigenous defence production, Make in India, the guns and and engines developed by his group, and much more, in this interview.

Fantastic achievement by Baba Kalyani. A big slap on the face of the Tatas, Mahindras, Hindujas and others who have business of hundreds of crores every year as suppliers to the Indian armed forces but have not done any ground breaking work so far for the armed forces.
Mr Kalyani inspite of not having an assured revenue stream from the Military has invested personal wealth, time and efforts and strived to deliver something of value to our forces.

BF also has a lot of business including about 50 pct or higher of all tank tread assemblies. BK worked hard to get it and had to convince erstwhile RM. Tata SED has made significant effort as well. L&T has also made a lot of effort.

So here is the thing. Either your rephrase your message and show some knowledge and maturity and show that you have earned the right to post here and not in the newbie forum or I delete it and warn you. Your choice sir.

[Akshay Kapoor]

Thanks. Great summary. Lots of info to digest and how messed up we are.


So BEL fuze facility is tie-up with Reshef of Israel.

http://www.resheffuzes.com/index.aspx

ARDE did work on fuzes for HSLD and these were made by OFB. Somehow they were prone to mishaps and OFB removed all traces of their involvement,
Same with ARDE.

I think the Director Of Artillery should give ARDE 6 months to put up or shut up on the PGK fuze they are developing.

As back-up he should give a development contract with Reshef to develop and produce this product in India for both artillery and mortars. It should also be adapted for Naval Guns.

Link to Contract Fuze Development by Reshef:


http://www.resheffuzes.com/page.aspx?id=10004

They can open an office in Pune to leverage the Armament R&D labs in that neighborhood.

This PGK fuze is that important.

Sir you are falling in the same trap - DG arty has no authority to give contracts and decide who will develop. He cannot even allow a pvt gun to be tested (a decision which has no financial implication) - ministry rapped his predecessor. How can he take financial decisions and tell OFB anything. What he can certainly do is to say that this fuse is very important and that Dhanush will fail without it and put it on record for ministry and OFB. He can also ‘make a case’ for giving a time bound deadline to OFB and then giving order to Israelis. But the case will have to go through the full proceedure. Infact if you read DPP AON section you will see that for AON amongst many other things - DRDO has to give NOC ie no objextion certificate. Army has to explain the tactical use of the equipment and justify to Joint Secy (who has probably no knowledge nor interest) why this equipment is needed and how it will be used of battlefield , what is currently used and why this is better, can tactics be changed to carry on with current etc etc. Files fly back and forth for months at this stage trying to explain this to the Jt Secretary. Very frustrating and quite a professionally humiliating process. That’s just at AON stage. Then we have the other stages, single vendor etc.

Unless of course the Israeli company is already supplying some fuses and it can be classified as the same category. That will definitely make things faster.

[Pratyush]

With procedure described as above it is hardly surprising that it takes decades for new items to be inducted in the forces.

More than anything else we need to fix the procurement process and make it time bound and officials accountable for delays. That is attributable to the actions of the particular official