Artillery: News & Discussion

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Akshay Kapoor
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Akshay Kapoor »

Ramana sir perhaps we can try to get your findings re the side slap, fuse issue to AHQ. I’ll pm you.
Akshay Kapoor
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Akshay Kapoor »

Pratyush wrote:With procedure described as above it is hardly surprising that it takes decades for new items to be inducted in the forces.

More than anything else we need to fix the procurement process and make it time bound and officials accountable for delays. That is attributable to the actions of the particular official
This is just one small part. There are many more steps that include CCS approval and finance ministry concurring with CCS. Note this - by some miracle even if you manage to get to CCS approval it means nothing. Absolutely nothing because the DPP is based on 15 year perspective plan and 5 years defence plan but orders are placed base on annual budget. So this process pretty much has 0 correlation with actual buying. Because parliament sanctions annua budget through finance bill not long term procurements based on five year defence plan.

And yes responsibility and accountability has to be fixed as you say. Armed forces are howling for it for decades. But as Vidurji says ‘they have no currency’.

It’s a bloody joke. Read the DPM seriously. It’s great fun.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Vips »

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Vips wrote:
Fantastic achievement by Baba Kalyani. A big slap on the face of the Tatas, Mahindras, Hindujas and others who have business of hundreds of crores every year as suppliers to the Indian armed forces but have not done any ground breaking work so far for the armed forces.
Mr Kalyani inspite of not having an assured revenue stream from the Military has invested personal wealth, time and efforts and strived to deliver something of value to our forces.
BF also has a lot of business including about 50 pct or higher of all tank tread assemblies. BK worked hard to get it and had to convince erstwhile RM. Tata SED has made significant effort as well. L&T has also made a lot of effort.

So here is the thing. Either your rephrase your message and show some knowledge and maturity and show that you have earned the right to post here and not in the newbie forum or I delete it and warn you. Your choice sir.
Right sir. I have edited my post.

Fact remains that he has treaded on a path which others before him could have easily done instead of just relying on assured orders year after year. I remember reading a news article (not an interview) many years back of Mr Kalyani's struggle in trying to convince the defence ministry of his ability to make a artillery gun. He had to wait more than 5 years just getting the permission to use Army's range to test the gun!! The other Pvt players who are now getting to test their wares at the army ranges are just piggy backing on his efforts.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Akshay Kapoor »

Thanks Vips. I like Baba Kalyani too but remember he is a promoter so has more freedom to pivot the company to a direction he wants. For Tata SED CEO there are many stakeholders within Tatas he needs to convince and year they have shown commitment.

Re testing of B52 as I have said countless times army gabe permission right away but we’re rapped on knuckles by the govt.

Personally I think Baba is visionary. But there are others as well.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by darshhan »

Vips wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:
BF also has a lot of business including about 50 pct or higher of all tank tread assemblies. BK worked hard to get it and had to convince erstwhile RM. Tata SED has made significant effort as well. L&T has also made a lot of effort.

So here is the thing. Either your rephrase your message and show some knowledge and maturity and show that you have earned the right to post here and not in the newbie forum or I delete it and warn you. Your choice sir.
Right sir. I have edited my post.

Fact remains that he has treaded on a path which others before him could have easily done instead of just relying on assured orders year after year. I remember reading a news article (not an interview) many years back of Mr Kalyani's struggle in trying to convince the defence ministry of his ability to make a artillery gun. He had to wait more than 5 years just getting the permission to use Army's range to test the gun!! The other Pvt players who are now getting to test their wares at the army ranges are just piggy backing on his efforts.
Vips, But would you had still admired BK the same, if you were a shareholder in BF and there were negative financial implications due to such decisions of Baba ji.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Vips »

Sirji In all sincerity Yes. If you see the total funds would be less than 1% of his turnover so in that sense not a big risk. What was important was the intent in trying to initiate/develop/make something sorely needed by us. Only proves to show that if someone with expertise and money were to take the initiative they could achieve wonders here. Baba Kalyani proved it many times first with the Guns and then the 3 different Jet engines.

Sadly majority of the other private players are only jockeying to grab an increased share of the defence pie just by relying on the offset programs of GOI and then doing screwdrivergiri to get the revenue.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

Kalyani’s new ultra light howitzer - called Garuda 105 - is out and may be sent to the Army for trials this year. Picture is there in the link below.

https://twitter.com/indiandefencera/sta ... 9059646464

As a side note, please follow the above on Twitter. You get good info, without the drama.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Vips »

Hoping for some positive news soon about the winter rials (in Sikkim) of the 52 Cal guns. Its nearly a month since they started. Jingo is looking forward to reading about new world records and the overall success of the test.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Vips »

Rakesh wrote:Kalyani’s new ultra light howitzer - called Garuda 105 - is out and may be sent to the Army for trials this year. Picture is there in the link below.

https://twitter.com/indiandefencera/sta ... 9059646464

As a side note, please follow the above on Twitter. You get good info, without the drama.
GOI should equip the BSF on the pakistani Border with these guns. Static light field guns in service with BSF can be replaced.The rapid mobility and strike force of this guns would cause quite a khujli under the brown shalwars.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Vips wrote:Hoping for some positive news soon about the winter rials (in Sikkim) of the 52 Cal guns. Its nearly a month since they started. Jingo is looking forward to reading about new world records and the overall success of the test.

Vips, good news lead 40 LSP @ 2 suppliers.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Katare »

tsarkar wrote:
From the same link,
Each operational commander, designated as competent financial authority, will have two ceilings for the amount of funds he can spend at a time: one defined by consultation with an internal/integrated financial auditor and another that the commander may make at his own discretion subject to government conditions.
So spending power lies with Integrated Financial Auditor who is more powerful than the General/Admiral.

They are from Indian Defence Accounts Service, a Group A Civil Service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Services_of_India

I know a hilarious case of a Commander, whose wife joined IDAS after marriage, and later on became IFA to Flag Officer C-in-C Western Naval Command. In official functions, she sat next to Admiral. She was allocated a bungalow equivalent to the Admiral while her husband was on the waitlist for a flat. The entire NWWA hierarchy went red faced and topsy turvy with every woman member cursing women's empowerment :rotfl:
I don’t think this is any different than what happens in the private sector or anywhere else in the government. Without an accountant running PNL, NPV, IRR and such matrixs and counter signing it no business authority can sign off on the expenses. They are the one who prepare the paper work and ensure it is in accordance with the govt procedures before the actual authorities can sign it. These are glorified versions of the bade babu in anf infian office. Nothing gets paid/signed or passed untill proper amount of grease is aplied at his desk. Although the rot runs a lot deep in govt than private sector
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Ramana sir perhaps we can try to get your findings re the side slap, fuse issue to AHQ. I’ll pm you.
Will work on it.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Vips »

Ramana Sir, i missed out on the news about the LSP for the 52 Cal guns, Thanks. :)
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Indranil »

Rakesh wrote:Kalyani’s new ultra light howitzer - called Garuda 105 - is out and may be sent to the Army for trials this year. Picture is there in the link below.

https://twitter.com/indiandefencera/sta ... 9059646464

As a side note, please follow the above on Twitter. You get good info, without the drama.
Both those guns in the picture have been displayed for the last few years. They call the 105 mm the ultra light field gun. The ultra light howitzer that is being readied for the trials later this year is a 155mm gun.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Vips »

The Babudom habit of doing things peace meal is alive and licking. After multiple years, the 52 cals are being tested. Now after further delay, the other guns will be tested. When both the guns are all ready why cant it be tested together to avoid further delays?
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/964970031791640576 --> OFB's 155 mm/45 calibre Dhanush howitzer is headed into another round of trials. This is expected to be the final round of trials before the indent for 114 units is actually executed.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Indranil »

Don't know where to put this. But there is a very interesting Tender out by PXE, DRDO

Fabrication of (10) movable shelter for fixed gun mount of 120mm MBT Arjun. The base is concrete. Just for testing or preparation for mounting along the borders
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

PXE, is testing place. So.most likely fixed mount for testing.


---
added later:

Yes Its most likely a shelter for the fixed mount gun.

Aberdeen proving grounds in US also has fixed gun for proof testing of projectiles.

Most likely its for new Arjun projectiles.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Indranil »

True. But 10?
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by srai »

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/964970031791640576 --> OFB's 155 mm/45 calibre Dhanush howitzer is headed into another round of trials. This is expected to be the final round of trials before the indent for 114 units is actually executed.
Every time a fresh round of trials occur, a new set of "defects"/"enhancements" are "discovered" to be again validated in another "final" trials ...
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Aditya_V »

Indranil wrote:True. But 10?
Given the way our procurement system works atleast it is 10 and not 2.
ramana
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Akshay, I have been looking at the 155mm projectiles dimensions.

I notice that most 155mm guns have 1 in 20 calibers rifling.
This is a long ago set parameter for the M107 type shell.
Later the EERFB/BB & BT shells which are more aerodynamic to develop the greater range and are longer than the M107 shells. and the rifling is the same as before.

Now intuitively not using math here ( 8) ), the longer shell needs more spin to stabilize it in the barrel and outside. This reduces the wobble as a slower spin has more probability to be unstable. Remember the lattu wobbles at a slower speed than at high speed. Higher spin will overcome any mfg tolerances for off-axis for the CG.
To get more spin it has to have faster rifling or shell has to be fired at a higher charge to get more muzzle velocity as the spin rate is a function of rifling and muzzle velocity.

Manjugu, Can you run this by your friends?
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

here is a discussion using a 22 bullet.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/201 ... n-zediker/
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Will »

http://idrw.org/atags-bang-for-the-buck/#more-163348

Was wondering how the army hadn't voiced its reservations on a non strategic indigenous project yet . Well as they say some will never disappointment. :twisted: As expected its the "weight" issue a la Arjun. If the ATAGS is 20 tonnes then there is a valid weight issue. But the import lobby never disappoints :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Rishi_Tri »

Will wrote:http://idrw.org/atags-bang-for-the-buck/#more-163348

Was wondering how the army hadn't voiced its reservations on a non strategic indigenous project yet . Well as they say some will never disappointment. :twisted: As expected its the "weight" issue a la Arjun. If the ATAGS is 20 tonnes then there is a valid weight issue. But the import lobby never disappoints :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
Yes, surprising indeed why all these were not a factor a few weeks back.

Well, the gun may be heavy but isn't it throwing all those shells to 'world record' ranges? :rotfl:

If the weight cannot be absolutely argued against and we have already used bridge bogey for Arjun, lets bring trucks into picture. :rotfl: 6X6 not able to carry 18 tons? Well give the truck to any Tata Ace driver who over loads his 1 ton ride with 2 tons every morning and see the ATAGS fly in air. Its all in mind.

Anyway, good details in the article. Should we say, the Sikkim trials have been successful? I would say yes, else press would have been flooded with 'didn't meet' news.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Will »

Looks like the trails were a definate success. Thats why the sudden realisation from the import lobby that theres a weight issue. :mrgreen:
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Ever since Babur at Panipat, artillery has been a weakness for Indians. In fact British Indian Army was allowed to raise artillery formations only just before WWII.

After initial 75mm pack and 105mm howitzer, IA has ensured no Indian development of artillery with their attitude. You can't innovate what you don't design and make.

US adopted the French 75, 105 and 155mm during world war I and continusouky developed them. Even now US is learning the 155mm intricacies. The advent of electronic fuzes has made tube ballistics were important to learn.

It's sad the IA wants to keep importing.

I think the COI are a farce for they resume trials and things fall apart. They don't know what they dont know.
One simple table listing all the shell and gun failures will.show a pattern.
Date, Type of gun, calibers, shell, Fuze, charge, barrel diameter, how many rounds already fired from that gun, Comments.

MOD Note : edited by Akshay Kapoor.

I will not tolerate anyone calling army officers jokers. Ramana you should set better standards as a thought leader and senior most moderator. Standards are always set at the top and that is where the rot starts as well. Lead by example like you have done on shell balloting analysis.

Second point to everyone - dont react to every article you see. Respond (not react) to facts on the ground with clarity of thought. Some weeks ago a positive news on winter trials of ATAGS came out and everyone started reacting. Some even questioning why x orders were not given. When that was seen off another article has come which is 180 degrees opposite and again people start reacting. Have you no minds of your own that you will react to every bit of press news ? What madness is this ? What is the difference between you and the lay man on the street.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Will wrote:Looks like the trails were a definate success. Thats why the sudden realisation from the import lobby that theres a weight issue. :mrgreen:
First para states Shimla trials are successful.

Yes now all those objections of rotten bridges.

Next will come the logistics issue.

Guns are not for parades.
They are for fighting wars.
ATAGS shell is deadly accurate at long range.
It's weight is not more than Long Tom.

One generation ago artillery guys used to envy Pak having Long Tom and the 8" howitzer.

Now they complain of weight.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by abhik »

Here's the original article from India Today/Sandeep Unnithan
Bang for the buck?
Some interesting titbits, it appears that the plan to buy a foreign towed gun has not been dropped yet, only the screwdriver-giri component was dropped, they may still import 480 of them (still an eye popping number). And then there is this->
At least some of the army's indifference can be explained in the fact that the service didn't ask for the gun to begin with.
Going by public domain information the IA has not asked for the indigenous development of much of anything.
Towed Howitzer (requirement for a couple 1000): Multi decade saga, Dhaush and ATAGS developed, imports still on apparently.
Ultra Lightweight Howitzer: M777 bought after 10 years, just as BF develops its prototype.
Man Portable ATGM (requirement in the 10's of thousands): ~10 ongoing saga importgiri saga between Javelin and Spike; DROD and private firms (VEM) developing their own prototypes.
MANPAD: another ongoing saga, government now looking at indigenous development.
MBT: I'll just leave an emoticon for this :evil:
IFV: Still born Strategic Partnership screwdriver-giri thing going on over 10 years, DRDO develops Abhay IFV 10 years ago.
I'm sure there are plenty of other examples that can be added to this list.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by vasu raya »

Wouldn't it be prudent that they create an export version and the private sector already involved? even if the export market is crowded, any possible evaluation by other countries would put IA's own decision making in perspective and possible scrutiny.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Viv S »

Structurally, the howitzer has changed very little in over a century. The principle remains the same-a shell is spun out through a grooved steel barrel in a high trajectory to fall on its target. The addition of modern electronics and computers-automated gun alignment and positioning systems, laser rangefinders and shells embedded with GPS systems-have made it the most cost-effective way to deliver ordnance over a 50 km range. A surface-to-surface missile like the Prithvi, for instance, costs Rs 10 crore. A single 155 mm shell weighing 50 kg costs just Rs 10 lakh.
Is this last part accurate? That's over $15,000. At Rs 1 lakh, the shell would be a tad overpriced. How much is OFB taking the taxpayer for?
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by vasu raya »

abhik wrote: Ultra Lightweight Howitzer: M777 bought after 10 years, just as BF develops its prototype.
Isn't this the other way around, BF's JV with Mandus group came about when the M777 were bought?

given the above, maybe BF has a chance to meet the army's requirement, even if unjustified, to reduce the weight of ATAGS by more than the current projection of 2 tons?
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by jpremnath »

Viv S wrote:
Structurally, the howitzer has changed very little in over a century. The principle remains the same-a shell is spun out through a grooved steel barrel in a high trajectory to fall on its target. The addition of modern electronics and computers-automated gun alignment and positioning systems, laser rangefinders and shells embedded with GPS systems-have made it the most cost-effective way to deliver ordnance over a 50 km range. A surface-to-surface missile like the Prithvi, for instance, costs Rs 10 crore. A single 155 mm shell weighing 50 kg costs just Rs 10 lakh.
Is this last part accurate? That's over $15,000. At Rs 1 lakh, the shell would be a tad overpriced. How much is OFB taking the taxpayer for?
During the Kargil War, I remember reading that the cost of a single bofors shell was 1000USD. 10 Lakh Rs a piece sounds way too expensive.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by abhik »

Viv S wrote:
Structurally, the howitzer has changed very little in over a century. The principle remains the same-a shell is spun out through a grooved steel barrel in a high trajectory to fall on its target. The addition of modern electronics and computers-automated gun alignment and positioning systems, laser rangefinders and shells embedded with GPS systems-have made it the most cost-effective way to deliver ordnance over a 50 km range. A surface-to-surface missile like the Prithvi, for instance, costs Rs 10 crore. A single 155 mm shell weighing 50 kg costs just Rs 10 lakh.
Is this last part accurate? That's over $15,000. At Rs 1 lakh, the shell would be a tad overpriced. How much is OFB taking the taxpayer for?
Must be wrong, they make ~1 lac shells per year, @10lac for shell that would be 10k Cr, which is ridiculous.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by abhik »

vasu raya wrote:
abhik wrote: Ultra Lightweight Howitzer: M777 bought after 10 years, just as BF develops its prototype.
Isn't this the other way around, BF's JV with Mandus group came about when the M777 were bought?
...
My point is that they waited for 10 years for the imported guns when they could have developed our own by that time.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by sarabpal.s »

Gps+shell cost, they forget to add "GPS" line in cost line.simple shell may cost puny overall
ramana
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Simple shell is quite inexpensive.

About $1500/shell for M107 shell.

BTW did IDRW copy Sandeep article and put std notice.

https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/the- ... 2018-02-22
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by darshhan »

sarabpal.s wrote:Gps+shell cost, they forget to add "GPS" line in cost line.simple shell may cost puny overall
Gps dont cost that much. Has to be typo error. Actual cost of production for the Shell(fabricated metal +explosives) would be less than Rs ten thousand. Adding a GPS/glosnass/IRNSS would jack the cost by the same amount. Remember you will be procuring navigation devices in bulk. So that should save costs too. So at the most an artillery shell along with some precision guided mechanism would cost you INR 20,000 i.e the cost of production.

Now the question is what is the price that Army is paying for such shells?
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Philip »

DRDO should also develop a naval gun with ER munitions 100km range.Rail guns too for the future.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by sum »

Shatrujeet reporting 155mm pounding pak positions in last couple of days and the first 155mm firing since 2003.
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