Artillery: News & Discussion

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uddu
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by uddu »

ramana wrote:JTull I don't think so. For IA does need these guns in the mountain regions.

This gun is different and is for MSC. Dhanush and ATAGS are for the plains.
So both are needed.

The instrumented shell they talk about is the instrumented fuze that measures radial and longitudinal accelerations and transmits with patch antennas. Read the PhD thesis I had linked before. It describes this gadget.

This technology DRDO can benefit from also. I hope some off the best scientists are put in this JIC and not just the OFB types.
Its a science problem not a mfg problem.


M777 had barrel burst earlier so they must have done root cause on those incidents.

The US charge that
The US officials claimed that the ammunition did not have explosive of the right consistency, which was denied by Indian officials.
Means they say the explosive had lumps in it that cause a CG offset when it solidifies.
Plausible but not probable as 1164 shells were fired from the gun that suffered from the shell break up.
If CG offset was there as a systemic issue it would have shown up or manifested earlier.

The phrase "Shell exited muzzle in pieces' is a result and the cause is shell break up.
Wish the briefing and press reports accurately.
Ramanaji, the gun is different for the U.S Army and not for us. The U.S uses their Chinooks to move them around. They seem to have dedicated Chinooks for this role. What's the advantage for us with this guns? Nothing, since we are unable to transport them by helicopter. The number of helicopters that will get inducted is so less in number, that will be used elsewhere and if used to transport the guns, the war will be over before that happens. In reality it's a liability that we have a gun that can only fire with limited range compared to the ATAGS. ATAGS can stay 20 km behind an M777 and still fire the same distance with advantage in all other areas and still the Army is complaining about the weight of ATAGS, as if every jawan is supposed to carry one ATAGS on his shoulder. If light weight is that much a necessity, better go with Kalyani's light weight guns. Also ensuring that the HAL's Medium Lift Helis are capable of transporting the light guns.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by manjgu »

i guess M777 makes more sense for US army as it is a expeditionary force..it moves around the world so the logistics of M777 is easier. bofors being used effectively in kargili conflict ( high altitude area ) proves a heavier gun could be v useful in indian context.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by jaysimha »

https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/whatsnew/n ... e-pune.pdf
DRDO 2nd national conference on advances in armament technology NCAAT 2018 PUNE
8th and 9th june Pune
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by abhik »

FH77, Dhanush, ATAGS and if possible even K-9 will be used in the mountains not just M777, if anything M777 is a niche weapon for us.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Ashutosh Malik »

Dear Mr. Akshay Kapoor,

I think you deleted my comment, made earlier, in response to the post you made about not tolerating anyone calling army officers jokers.

At least I am not able to find my comment after having searched for it a few times already, yesterday and today. Or it seems to have mysteriously disappeared. And I did not take a screenshot too.

I did not abuse anyone in my comment. I actually referred to me coming from a family which has served the Armed forces of India, at least since World War 1, from Jawans to Generals. The comment I made was in line with my thought that on this forum, I have seen all sections of India's polity being abused, some like Civil Servants, in rather stark terms. I further averred that soldiers and officers of Indian Armed forces come from the same stock that provides for Politicians, Scientists, Businessmen, Professors, Teachers, Bureaucrats etc. And, I remarked that we should have rules that account for all segments of the society, unless our idea of existence is to suggest that some sections of citizenry of India are at a markedly higher stature of existence. Coming from a family with Great Grand Parents, to brothers, to cousins, serving in the Armed Forces of India, I certainly don't need to be given lessons on respecting them.

I dont comment on the forum often - you will see that from my record given that you are a Moderator. I come and read and move on. I have set up and run entrepreneurial organisations across India over the last 2 decades. I am not in the business of abusing people or trivialising issues by random abuses.

I would expect to have been the given the courtesy of being informed that my comment was being deleted.

If the above sounds unreasonable to you, then my submission is that you have to rethink some elements of your role as a moderator.

My apologies to you in advance, if my earlier comment is still there, and if I have been remiss in not finding it.

Best regards,
Ashutosh Malik
ramana wrote:Ever since Babur at Panipat, artillery has been a weakness for Indians. In fact Brirish Indian Army was allowed to raise artillery formations only just before WWII.

After initial 75mm pack and 105mm howitzer, IA has ensured no Indian development of artillery with their attitude. You can't innovate what you don't design and make.

US adopted the French 75, 105 and 155mm during world war I and continusouky developed them. Even now US is learning the 155mm intricacies. The advent of electronic fuzes has made tube ballistics were important to learn.

It's sad the IA wants to keep importing.

I think the COI are a farce for they resume trials and things fall apart. They don't know what they dont know.
One simple table listing all the shell and gun failures will.show a pattern.
Date, Type of gun, calibers, shell, Fuze, charge, barrel diameter, how many rounds already fired from that gun, Comments.

MOD Note : edited by Akshay Kapoor.

I will not tolerate anyone calling army officers jokers. Ramana you should set better standards as a thought leader and senior most moderator. Standards are always set at the top and that is where the rot starts as well. Lead by example like you have done on shell balloting analysis.

Second point to everyone - dont react to every article you see. Respond (not react) to facts on the ground with clarity of thought. Some weeks ago a positive news on winter trials of ATAGS came out and everyone started reacting. Some even questioning why x orders were not given. When that was seen off another article has come which is 180 degrees opposite and again people start reacting. Have you no minds of your own that you will react to every bit of press news ? What madness is this ? What is the difference between you and the lay man on the street.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

uddu and manjgu,

I was saying that for IA M777 is different than the Dhanush or ATAGS due to less weight and shorter barrel.
So its needed.

Sorry for being brief.

per Indian Express the new trial should be over yesterday. Lets hear the results.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Akshay Kapoor »

Ashutosh Malik wrote:Dear Mr. Akshay Kapoor,

I think you deleted my comment, made earlier, in response to the post you made about not tolerating anyone calling army officers jokers.

At least I am not able to find my comment after having searched for it a few times already, yesterday and today. Or it seems to have mysteriously disappeared. And I did not take a screenshot too.

I did not abuse anyone in my comment. I actually referred to me coming from a family which has served the Armed forces of India, at least since World War 1, from Jawans to Generals. The comment I made was in line with my thought that on this forum, I have seen all sections of India's polity being abused, some like Civil Servants, in rather stark terms. I further averred that soldiers and officers of Indian Armed forces come from the same stock that provides for Politicians, Scientists, Businessmen, Professors, Teachers, Bureaucrats etc. And, I remarked that we should have rules that account for all segments of the society, unless our idea of existence is to suggest that some sections of citizenry of India are at a markedly higher stature of existence. Coming from a family with Great Grand Parents, to brothers, to cousins, serving in the Armed Forces of India, I certainly don't need to be given lessons on respecting them.

I dont comment on the forum often - you will see that from my record given that you are a Moderator. I come and read and move on. I have set up and run entrepreneurial organisations across India over the last 2 decades. I am not in the business of abusing people or trivialising issues by random abuses.

I would expect to have been the given the courtesy of being informed that my comment was being deleted.

If the above sounds unreasonable to you, then my submission is that you have to rethink some elements of your role as a moderator.

My apologies to you in advance, if my earlier comment is still there, and if I have been remiss in not finding it.

Best regards,
Ashutosh Malik
ramana wrote:Ever since Babur at Panipat, artillery has been a weakness for Indians. In fact Brirish Indian Army was allowed to raise artillery formations only just before WWII.

After initial 75mm pack and 105mm howitzer, IA has ensured no Indian development of artillery with their attitude. You can't innovate what you don't design and make.

US adopted the French 75, 105 and 155mm during world war I and continusouky developed them. Even now US is learning the 155mm intricacies. The advent of electronic fuzes has made tube ballistics were important to learn.

It's sad the IA wants to keep importing.

I think the COI are a farce for they resume trials and things fall apart. They don't know what they dont know.
One simple table listing all the shell and gun failures will.show a pattern.
Date, Type of gun, calibers, shell, Fuze, charge, barrel diameter, how many rounds already fired from that gun, Comments.

MOD Note : edited by Akshay Kapoor.

I will not tolerate anyone calling army officers jokers. Ramana you should set better standards as a thought leader and senior most moderator. Standards are always set at the top and that is where the rot starts as well. Lead by example like you have done on shell balloting analysis.

Second point to everyone - dont react to every article you see. Respond (not react) to facts on the ground with clarity of thought. Some weeks ago a positive news on winter trials of ATAGS came out and everyone started reacting. Some even questioning why x orders were not given. When that was seen off another article has come which is 180 degrees opposite and again people start reacting. Have you no minds of your own that you will react to every bit of press news ? What madness is this ? What is the difference between you and the lay man on the street.
Thank you for your sensible and reasoned post. I did in fact delete your comment and to be fair I also deleted my own comment which your comment was a reaction to because I did not want any derailing of the discussion. Your comment was OT. It was also in response to a discussion between two moderators - myself and Ramana and its best kept that way without interference. But you are quite right - I should have informed you it was deleted especially as it was not an abusive post by any standards. The problem Mr Malik is that everyone is not reasonable like yourself. Its almost a lynch mob here sometimes and that has to be stopped by decisive action.

People seem to protect their rights to comment and abuse much more than exercise their obligation to post with content. A conscious decision has been taken on the forum to improve the quality to discussion and that will be maintained. Please take any complaints to the feedback thread. Thanks.
ramana
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Re-reading the Ind Exp article by Sushant Singh

The sixth meeting of JIC will be held on Tuesday and Wednesday, after “instrumented firing” with specialised equipment from the US to check the differential pressure in the barrel while firing Indian ammunition.
This implies a different problem. The shell contents are getting compression load. I don't see how this is shell problem.
Any way the meeting should be over tomorrow.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by VinodTK »

After failing thrice, Indian Bofors clears internal trials
Nagpur: After failing thrice during trials, Dhanush, the Indian 155x45 mm calibre howitzer, based on the Swedish Bofors, has cleared a crucial round of internal tests. It is slated to be sent for further trials with the Army in April.
The howitzer indigenisation was initiated in 2010. In 2013, a shell burst within the barrel during trials with the Army, setting back the process. After this, in 2017, there were two incidents of muzzle hits during similar trials. The shell came out of the barrel, but hit the muzzle brake, a component at the opening. In the same period, one of the pieces of the first batch of M-777 guns purchased from the US too suffered a muzzle hit.
Dhanush is being developed at the Gun Carriage Factory (GCF) Jabalpur. After a series of setbacks, it was decided to undertake thorough internal trials, before putting up the gun for trials with the Army again.
Sources said two guns were tested at Balasore, where the internal trials were held. Nearly 80% of the rounds were fired at full charge. This means the highest power of ammunition was used. This is because muzzle hits normally happen when a shell is fired at full charge.
During the Army trials, firing was done from a full battery, which constitutes of six guns. However, the number of shells fired in the internal trials using two guns were much more than in the trials with the Army, said sources privy to the development.
The tests were conducted smoothly with no incidents reported. Although certain modifications have been made in the guns, the changes are not linked with the muzzle-hit issue, said the sources.
“Aspects like the gun’s compatibility with the ammunition, reliability and sustainability were tested during the Balasore trials. As things have been smooth, a conclusion can be derived that the earlier incidents happened due to fault in the ammunition, not the guns,” said a source. Inquiry is underway into the incidents related to Dhanush as well as M-777.
The GCF has got an order to make 114 Dhanush guns for the Army. Even after the order, tests continued with the guns made in the first batch, during which the misfires took place. Sources say muzzle hit has taken place over 40 times even in the original Bofors purchased from Sweden.
TOI articula dated March 5th
ramana
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

VinodTK wrote:After failing thrice, Indian Bofors clears internal trials
Nagpur: After failing thrice during trials, Dhanush, the Indian 155x45 mm calibre howitzer, based on the Swedish Bofors, has cleared a crucial round of internal tests. It is slated to be sent for further trials with the Army in April.
The howitzer indigenisation was initiated in 2010. In 2013, a shell burst within the barrel during trials with the Army, setting back the process. After this, in 2017, there were two incidents of muzzle hits during similar trials. The shell came out of the barrel, but hit the muzzle brake, a component at the opening. In the same period, one of the pieces of the first batch of M-777 guns purchased from the US too suffered a muzzle hit.
Dhanush is being developed at the Gun Carriage Factory (GCF) Jabalpur. After a series of setbacks, it was decided to undertake thorough internal trials, before putting up the gun for trials with the Army again.
Sources said two guns were tested at Balasore, where the internal trials were held. Nearly 80% of the rounds were fired at full charge. This means the highest power of ammunition was used. This is because muzzle hits normally happen when a shell is fired at full charge.

During the Army trials, firing was done from a full battery, which constitutes of six guns. However, the number of shells fired in the internal trials using two guns were much more than in the trials with the Army, said sources privy to the development.
The tests were conducted smoothly with no incidents reported. Although certain modifications have been made in the guns, the changes are not linked with the muzzle-hit issue, said the sources.


“Aspects like the gun’s compatibility with the ammunition, reliability and sustainability were tested during the Balasore trials. As things have been smooth, a conclusion can be derived that the earlier incidents happened due to fault in the ammunition, not the guns,” said a source. Inquiry is underway into the incidents related to Dhanush as well as M-777.

The GCF has got an order to make 114 Dhanush guns for the Army. Even after the order, tests continued with the guns made in the first batch, during which the misfires took place. Sources say muzzle hit has taken place over 40 times even in the original Bofors purchased from Sweden.
TOI article dated March 5th

VinodTK, Thanks for the post....

Awesome news.

It vindicates my analysis from open sources and papers from scholars.
It was the shell as OFB, GCF is indicating.
Again to reiterate the muzzle hits happen at full charge.
And the two guns tested at Balasore were fired at full charge.
And no muzzle hits in this instance.
Also the changes made could be those improvements that were talked about in Frontline article.

Only thing not reported I how many rounds were fired?

And how does that compare to UET by Army?

Reason I ask is, barrel wear could magnify any shell issues.
So number of rounds fired in Balasore trials could indicate barrel wear.

This conclusion about shell being a cause will lead to closure of M777 shell breakup currently being investigated.
Because the OFB shells are good when fired at max charge in nominal gun barrel and not worn out barrel.

Also by now the sixth meeting of M777 JIC would be over after the instrumented firing trials as reported by Sushant Singh in Indian Express.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

This report is pretty good news.

How come we don't see any acknowledgement!!!
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by jaysimha »

https://www.sebi.gov.in/sebi_data/attac ... 256387.pdf
page 40
Larsen & Toubro (L&T) has bagged a contract worth US$ 669.34 million from the Ministry of Defence,
Government of India, to supply 100 artillery of 155mm/52 caliber tracked self-propelled guns for the
Indian Army, under the Make in India initiative.

page 105
The Ministry of Defence, Government of India, approved the “Strategic Partnership” model
which will enable private companies to tie up with foreign players for manufacturing
submarines, fighter jets, helicopters and armoured vehicles.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Rahul M »

WTF is a GOI org's official website posting contract values in million USD ??
ramana
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

This is the tracked K9 artillery with South Korean collaboration.
Finally Renuka Choudhary hit in 2004 is being rectified.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Rahul M wrote:WTF is a GOI org's official website posting contract values in million USD ??

Probably lot of import content for the K9 series SPG.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Picklu »

Almost 7 mil per unit
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by nam »

I had time to spend and watched some youtube videos on WW2 German-Russia little fight.

Germany deployed 6500 artillery pieces in Op Barbarosa. 3500 tanks( equivalent to our tank number) for the invasion. Their primary artillery piece was 150MM !

In return the Russian deployed 6000 artillery just for the attack on Berlin ! The Germans just could not cope with the Russian numbers in tanks & artillery.

I have come to conclusion that for RMA, it may be the better jets, net centric warfare, missiles etc, however the core of it is artillery! Nothing destroys like artillery.

I cannot wait to see our artillery updated to medium, with ATAGS, Dhanush, M777, K9 etc. This is the our real RMA. No wonder every effort had been made to deny us artillery.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

yeah in terms of bodycount artillery has beaten everything else right from middle ages till date. maybe even a summation of all other weapons.

we need to double and triple our number of artillery regiments both tube and rocket. even light 105mm and 122mmMRBL made in numbers with modern materials can be quite useful...we always seem to neglect these dal roti in favour of butter naan and lahori pulao citing extreme use cases of range, mobility, whatever.....90% of action will be covered by these bread and butter north korean type weapons also.

we have the largest army, lets shrink the tail (batmen, helpers, maalis, koi hai ...) and put them into the teeth peoples artillery divisions. train moving them by train and road enmasse, then digging in and unleashing devastating massed fire.

the US army artillery corps figured out in ww2 how to network the fire of multiple regiments and beat back attacks by german tanks .... on their inferior sherman equipped forces...
https://armyhistory.org/u-s-and-german- ... omparison/

excerpts

A component by component examination of American and German artillery shows that almost from the beginning of America’s participation in the conflict the U.S. Army had the superior system. American artillerymen did not try to combat the enemy’s artillery by building bigger guns. The approach from the beginning was to build a better system and it worked. That was clear to thoughtful observers at the time. Viewing the Italian campaign, Field Marshal Erwin Rommel commented, “The enemy’s tremendous superiority in artillery, and even more in the air, has broken the front open.” During the Normandy campaign, Rommel added, “Also in evidence is their great superiority in artillery and outstandingly large supply of ammunition.” By any reasonable standard, especially during the latter part of World War II, the American artillery arm was very clearly superior to that of the Germans.

The Field Artillery branch had developed clear ideas of what guns were needed for the mobile war it saw coming. Their designs were well thought out and served America well and, in some cases, are still serving America’s allies. When the money was finally allocated, the Army could spend it effectively (after a bit of congressional prodding) to get the guns it wanted built in a minimum of time thanks to the Army’s Industrial Mobilization plan. The United States was the only country with such a plan. The first version was largely put together by a bright young major named Dwight D. Eisenhower :shock:

One way to appreciate the magnitude of the problems caused by horse-drawn artillery is to note that one of the reasons the German Sixth Army did not try to break out of its encirclement at Stalingrad was because most of its horses were in rehabilitation camps to the west and were outside of that encirclement. As a result, Sixth Army would not have been able to move its heavy weapons or ammunition during a breakout attempt.
The Field Artillery School at Fort Sill also developed the fire direction center for U.S. artillery battalions and brigades into a place where fires could be rapidly allocated and shifted as needed. It was common practice to combine fires of the artillery of two or more adjacent divisions in support of an attack of one of those divisions, and then shift all the fires to successive attacks by the other divisions. The four divisions fighting on the northern shoulder of the Battle of the Bulge went even further. They were supported by the fire of 348 guns and a battalion of 4.2-inch mortars. All of these guns were placed under the direction of the assistant division commander of the 1st Infantry Division and all their fire was coordinated through his headquarters.



The sophistication of American fire direction developed at Fort Sill included the uniquely American ability, at that time: to have several batteries fire “Time on Target” (TOT) shoots. The fire direction center directing the TOT broadcast a countdown to all of the batteries participating in the shoot. Each battery calculated the time of flight from their guns to the target. Each fired during the countdown at a time that caused the initial rounds from all of the guns to impact the target simultaneously. Its effect was shattering.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

so rather than salivating over just the guns, we need to improve the whole food chain from quality and quantity of shells, logistics, target spotting and observation, WLRs, near real time GMTI, recce pod camera and satellite photo feeds into division HQ ,,,,,,, unless we consider our system to be perfect!

our divisional & brigade commanders need numerous LO drones and not the vulnerable chetak helicopters for target observation. we should probably have license made cloned the searcher and heron drones in 1000s rather than waste time on the ka226 type kit.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by shiv »

I always got the impression that good engineering is making things work at the limits of what science allows. Sadly a very large number of Indians even "in high places" simply do not understand as they curse Indian engineering for failures and compare with wesht. An artillery shell and the barrel are really working at the limits of what the materials allow and minimizing the failures and defining the envelope limits is what good engineering is - and that need work, time and empathy. Give our people a chance. They will kick ass.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by nam »

Ofcourse. Was doing some math. In comparison to a missile costing 1 million USD, 155 MM rounds costing 1k USD, with a effect radius of 10 mtrs will be able to bring down 1k rounds and pulverize a width of 2 KM of the front !

That is the radius width of a nuke!

Agree with you, we need those numbers.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

knowing the failure modes properly will also help to optimize the design and avoid over engineering. thats where massa with dozens of parallel projects most of which get shitcanned pulls ahead with strong data banks and ends up with light, tightly packed but highly functional gear.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

Rafale Aside, Big French Push On 2 Indian Weapon Contests Worth $8 Billion
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/03 ... llion.html
The other contest Parly refers to, also before the Indian Army, is a $2 billion quest for 1500 towed artillery guns. The towed gun system (TGS) contest is currently in crucial field trials by the Army. France fields the Nexter TRAJAN 155mm/52 cal artillery gun system developed in collaboration with India’s L&T, which will produce the gun in India should their partnership win the contest. While L&T will produce the mobility system, Nexter brings the actual gun, based on its in-service CAESAR system. The TRAJAN competes with an offering from Israel’s Elbit in partnership with India’s Kalyani Group. The program stipulates a local production run of at least 1,100 of those guns under Make in India protocols.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Picklu wrote:Almost 7 mil per unit
Addt the armored track unit.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by John »

Rakesh wrote:Rafale Aside, Big French Push On 2 Indian Weapon Contests Worth $8 Billion
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/03 ... llion.html
The other contest Parly refers to, also before the Indian Army, is a $2 billion quest for 1500 towed artillery guns. The towed gun system (TGS) contest is currently in crucial field trials by the Army. France fields the Nexter TRAJAN 155mm/52 cal artillery gun system developed in collaboration with India’s L&T, which will produce the gun in India should their partnership win the contest. While L&T will produce the mobility system, Nexter brings the actual gun, based on its in-service CAESAR system. The TRAJAN competes with an offering from Israel’s Elbit in partnership with India’s Kalyani Group. The program stipulates a local production run of at least 1,100 of those guns under Make in India protocols.
What is the need for Trajan? When there is already two 155mm guns in pipeline.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

The Dhanush factory trials at Balasore are very interesting.
They fired 80% of the shells at max charge and did not incur muzzle strike as per TOI Shishir Arya.

What they did not say was the number of shells fired?


Above tests mean that the OFB shells are good.
And Dhanush barrels are also good.
Then where is the problem?

Large number of shells especially at max charge, will wear out the barrel and increase probability of balloting leading to muzzle strike.

So the affordable Make in India solution is to replace the barrels after a certain number of shells are fired.
This way OFB shells and barrels can be used instead of importing whole new guns and shells.

Mean time DRDO can launch a Mission mode project to nitro-chrome plate the barrels for increased wear resistance.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Akshay Kapoor »

Not a bad solution. We do carry LMG spare barrels so its certainly feasible if the number of shells fired after which barrels need to be changed is reasonable. What is your estimate on number of shells fired after which barrel will need to be changed.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Based on the M777 shell muzzle strike happened at 1164 round, I would say not to exceed 1100 rounds with barrel replacement goal of 1000 rounds. This gives margin of 100 rounds to allow for pipeline delays etc. Barrel change should be at the depot level maintenance i.e. level 2 and not factory level as that would be level 3.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by VinodTK »

Indigenous artillery gun passes high-altitude winter test in Sikkim
PUNE: The month-long winter trials of the indigenously-developed 155mm/52 calibre Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS) have achieved the desired results, an official from the Defence Research and Development Organisation has said.
The weapon system is a joint effort by the DRDO and the private sector.

The trials were conducted by a group of scientists from the city-based Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE) and army officers at an elevation of 11,000 feet in Sikkim. “Scientists and soldiers tested the gun in extremely cold conditions. It delivered positive firing results even in -20 degree Celsius,” the DRDO official said. The official said the gun’s mobility, a crucial factor in high-altitude warfare, was favourable too. “All mobility parameters were checked during the trials,” the official said. Last year, the gun’s desert trials were held from August 24 to September 7. Results from these trials were positive too.

The ATAGS has an allelectric drive, which is better than traditional hydraulic drives of other towed guns. The electric drives of the ATAGS allows better control while opening and closing of the breech mechanism and while ramming the next round into the firing chamber.

Sources added that the gun is expected to become a part of the Indian Army by the year 2020.
JayS
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by JayS »

ramana wrote:Based on the M777 shell muzzle strike happened at 1164 round, I would say not to exceed 1100 rounds with barrel replacement goal of 1000 rounds. This gives margin of 100 rounds to allow for pipeline delays etc. Barrel change should be at the depot level maintenance i.e. level 2 and not factory level as that would be level 3.
Single test point is too less from reliability matrix perspective. Paper linked by Brar a few posts above gives good description on confidence level and number of test data points available. What you suggest would be a good start point. And field operators can be asked to collect more data as the gun is used in operations for initial few months or even a couple of years (I am not sure of intensity of usage). Based on that the number can be refined further.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by JayS »

VinodTK wrote:Indigenous artillery gun passes high-altitude winter test in Sikkim
PUNE: The month-long winter trials of the indigenously-developed 155mm/52 calibre Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS) have achieved the desired results, an official from the Defence Research and Development Organisation has said.
The weapon system is a joint effort by the DRDO and the private sector.

The trials were conducted by a group of scientists from the city-based Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE) and army officers at an elevation of 11,000 feet in Sikkim. “Scientists and soldiers tested the gun in extremely cold conditions. It delivered positive firing results even in -20 degree Celsius,” the DRDO official said. The official said the gun’s mobility, a crucial factor in high-altitude warfare, was favourable too. “All mobility parameters were checked during the trials,” the official said. Last year, the gun’s desert trials were held from August 24 to September 7. Results from these trials were positive too.

The ATAGS has an allelectric drive, which is better than traditional hydraulic drives of other towed guns. The electric drives of the ATAGS allows better control while opening and closing of the breech mechanism and while ramming the next round into the firing chamber.

Sources added that the gun is expected to become a part of the Indian Army by the year 2020.
Is it time yet to deploy lungi for dance..? Or more iterations pending..?
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by SaiK »

Dhoti Shibber times to begin. Vision 2025, Tibet liberation
RKumar

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by RKumar »

1. Don't want to be pessimistic but let's also hear army version.
2. Proof of the pudding is in its eating - let's see what numbers are ordered.

Only if 500 Arjuns could also be ordered at the same time :mrgreen:
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Pratyush »

JayS wrote:
Is it time yet to deploy lungi for dance..? Or more iterations pending..?
Regardless of the order status, time for lungi dance. This is a massive achievement for domestic industry.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Pratyush »

RKumar wrote:1. Don't want to be pessimistic but let's also hear army version.
2. Proof of the pudding is in its eating - let's see what numbers are ordered.

Only if 500 Arjuns could also be ordered at the same time :mrgreen:

The numbers ordered will be sufficient to meet the towed arty component of the field artillery rationalisation program.

Don't worry about it. It will happen.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by SaiK »

What! I'm campaiging for 1000 Arjun Mk2++ in tranches with a sustained acceptance of 100 tanks per year for 10 years contract with Avadi. Upgrades signed in only after user uses in war exercises for 2 years minimum.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by A Deshmukh »

:) Good News on ATAGS...

Any updates on Dhanush?
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ShauryaT »

How are they doing with weight control and sustained rate of fire for ATAGS. Anyone has this information? Original spec was to have it under 12 tons.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by nam »

It is not possible to have this capability at under 12 tons. They might be able to reduce 2-3 ton, but I doubt it can be brought to 12 ton. Unless they start using titanium similar to M777.

The 12 ton weight is from Bofors. As usual, the requirement must have been "need better than bofors, but equal/less than bofor's weight ".

If IA wants 12 ton for deploying in areas, where 18 ton cannot go, then it has Dhanush. So it will be a balance of ATAGS, Dhanush & M777.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Khalsa »

News about the success of ATAGS and Dhanush has been understated.
Congrats to them and us.

Well done folks
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