Artillery: News & Discussion

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Kartik
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Kartik » 30 Oct 2018 01:07

I certainly do hope so- that the remaining guns are not disposed or used for spares, and instead get up-gunned to the Sharang spec as well. At Rs 70 lakhs per gun, they offer amazing value for money, giving hope that the IA could eventually have nearly 1000 Sharang and Project Karan derived 155/45 guns at a fraction of the cost of new 155/45 guns. BTW, if the barrel and breech are replaced and new ones are put, does that mean that the gun's life is as good as new? Or are there other components that are not replaced that could mean a shorter life span for the Sharang guns?

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 30 Oct 2018 02:03

The Russian guns are bare bone and rugged. Upgrading it to 155 means, we have replaced the part which gets the most wear and tear.

There isn't anything critical left !

OFB must be producing some of the parts already for these guns. So very effective ratio for investment to firepower.

I never fathom, why we did not produce a 120/130 MM version of IFG.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 30 Oct 2018 03:49

Kartik, There were many articles on the OFB developed Sharang upgrade. Basically the barrel, breech, the recoil system and the electronics for gun laying. Only gun carriage is retained form original. During the 1990s decade IA bought man of the M-46 available as part of Warsaw pact demobilization.
Hence the 1000 guns inventory.
Also do watch the Youtube linked by Rakesh on previous page. I really like the pride and sincerity of that OFB officials.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 30 Oct 2018 07:34


mody
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby mody » 30 Oct 2018 14:44

ramana wrote:Kartik, There were many articles on the OFB developed Sharang upgrade. Basically the barrel, breech, the recoil system and the electronics for gun laying. Only gun carriage is retained form original. During the 1990s decade IA bought man of the M-46 available as part of Warsaw pact demobilization.
Hence the 1000 guns inventory.
Also do watch the Youtube linked by Rakesh on previous page. I really like the pride and sincerity of that OFB officials.
,

For Indian artillery, we can label the 2000-2010 decade as the lost decade.
The OFB upgrade of the M46 guns as well as an Bofors upgraded to 45 cal were displayed in Defexpo 2004.
The OFB M46 upgrade and the Soltam upgrade were in competition when the idea was first mooted. The OFB gun suffered a barrel burst or more correctly the the round burst in the barrel and IA was not interested in the OFB solution anymore.

The plan was to upgrade 600 of the roughly 1,000 M46 guns to 155mm. The first order for 180 guns was placed with Soltam. However, thereafter we proceeded to blacklist Soltam, Denel, Rhinemetal etc. etc. leaving only BAE systems in the fray for 155mm guns. The govt. didn't want to sign the contracrt with BAE, that too in a single vendor type situation and the rest as they say is history.

Now after all these years, it seems maybe only another 300 M46 guns are worth upgrading or maybe a ssecond tranche might be taken up later.

We can offer the same upgrade to other countries as well, like Vietnam. They have plenty of M46 guns. the Vietnam war was the first major conflict where the M46 was used and considered as the most effective gun at the time. At $100,000 per unit, it is fairly reasonable. OFB can get an order for say 200-300 ungs from Vietnam and also the order for the ammunition for the same.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 30 Oct 2018 14:59

Let's be accurate its 2004-14 and not 2000-10, it was only post 2004 elections we artiberally blacklisted Denel and Soltam. We stopped purchase contracts for offensive weapons such as artillery and ammunition focussed more on buying C17 and C130.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 30 Oct 2018 23:21

Mody and Aditya_V you both are right to a certain extent.
yes 2004 elections resulted in UPA coming to power and the end of offensive weapons system purchase.
Denel, and Soltam were blacklisted and Rhinemetall just to be sure.

If UPA had a chance even BAE would have been blacklisted.

Having said all this, even the Soltam upgrade was chancy as it had muzzle strike due to shell balloting.
Recall OFB engineers saying that the muzzle bore was enlarged to mitigate it.
Less than about 200 guns were upgraded with the Soltam solution.

The reason for shell balloting was not understood and blame OFB for bad shells was the standard Root Cause of inquiry committees.
When the shell burst in the M777 guns they realized some thing is wrong.
Especially when M777 was fired 1164 times and the next one blew up.
Despite being given two guns to do the user trials.
Essentially barrel wear is a major contributor.

It was only recently after we discussed this phenomenon that this phenomenon was understood by higher ups.
Now all the guns are passing trials as the firing is limited to within the mfg recommended barrel wear limits.

I just want the ordering process to be speeded up and stop the delays in file pushing.


M-46 has a barrel elevation problem due to the gun carriage limitations.
It cant be depressed beyond an angle.
The work around is to site it near a pit or embankment to allow the higher elevation.
This reduces protection from counter battery blast etc.
However the upgrade is a quantum jump over the 130 mm Diwali phataka explosive qty of < 5 kg vs ~15 kg for the 155mm shell !

I don't know if OFB or somebody makes the fuzes for the 130mm shells?
OFB and BEL now make 155mm shell fuzes.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 30 Oct 2018 23:23

Hats off to the Indian Army Artillery General who had faith in the OFB and supported the Dhanush development.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 30 Oct 2018 23:43

The pneumatic rammer in the Sharang is really important.. Otherwise they would have problems ramming the 40+kg round when the tube is at high angles.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 31 Oct 2018 00:57

Very true.
One of the modes of failure is the shell drops out of the barrel and falls into the chamber.
Results in blowup.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 31 Oct 2018 10:15

Another aspect of the 130mm upgrade is that is frees up 155mm Howitzers to be used in the Mountains, one of the calculation of Musharaf is that Bofors will be needed in Shakargarh bulge and hence given serviceability not enough 155mm Bofors would be inducted in Kargil area, fortunately here again his calculation on serviceable no of guns was wrong.

Previously when we did not have enough 155mm howitzers we had to keep them on the plains and move 130mm up to the hills and use the embankment Technic, if enough 130mm are upgraded, these will be kept in the plains and the Howitzers will be moved up the mountains to use thier high angle of elevation.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Gyan » 31 Oct 2018 16:17

Buy Chassis of 2A65 towed 152mm artillery from Russia. Mount 155mm OFB Barrel etc and we have a 155mm howitzer for Rs 1.5 crore each

Or just ask Kalyani to manufacture 52-56 caliber variants of its 155MM ULH.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 31 Oct 2018 21:32

The coming strides in arty are not going to be in the number or even length of tubes, rather smart fuses, rocket assisted projectiles, connected fire direction centers, and closing the sensor shooter gap. Looks like the IA is making strides in all areas.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 31 Oct 2018 22:26

Gyan wrote:Buy Chassis of 2A65 towed 152mm artillery from Russia. Mount 155mm OFB Barrel etc and we have a 155mm howitzer for Rs 1.5 crore each

Or just ask Kalyani to manufacture 52-56 caliber variants of its 155MM ULH.


I think India has supported enough outsiders. Best option is to push for more ATAGS and Dhanush while converting the M46 in stock.
also Kalyani can make the Bofors replacements as they would need to be changed out by now.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 31 Oct 2018 22:28

sudeepj wrote:The coming strides in arty are not going to be in the number or even length of tubes, rather smart fuses, rocket assisted projectiles, connected fire direction centers, and closing the sensor shooter gap. Looks like the IA is making strides in all areas.


Sudeepj,
We heard about a jont arty center run by OFB, Army to induct the Dhanush etc.
What do we know about its status?
Also no updates on BEL Pune Fuze factory and ARDE PGK project.


Ok Added later...

BEL plans to come up with artillery fuse plant in Nagpur
TNN | Jul 18, 2018,

NAGPUR: Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) announced its plans to come up with an artillery fuse manufacturing facility at Butibori industrial estate of the MIDC here. The defence PSU, which is already making fuses for artillery shells since a year, eyes a major business in this segment. So far, with 1.5 lakh units made at its plant in Pune, BEL hopes to make a similar amount on an annual basis at the proposed unit in Nagpur.

BEL officials, who announced the plans at a seminar organized by Vidarbha Defence Industries Association (VDIA), have sought the help of Chief Minister Devendra Fadnavis for the venture. Fadnavis, who was present at the meet, has assured help.

Fuse is a component in an artillery shell which triggers the bigger explosion. The fuse, which is filled with a chemical, is run on mechanical as well as electronic systems. BEL will be making electronic fuses. Initially it has started making fuses for the 105mm Indian field guns which is the basic level artillery system used by the Indian army. There are plans to eventually start making fuses for 155mm howitzers which includes guns of the Bofors make or the Dhanush, indigenously developed by the Ordnance Factory.

“As the army is shifting from the mechanical fuses to electronic ones, BEL is seeing a major opportunity in this business,” said a company source. BEL sees a major strategic advantage in having a plant in Nagpur. Solar Industries, a private sector explosive maker from the city, is one of its vendors which is supplying chemicals for filling up the fuses.

At present, Solar Industries is carrying out the filling operation for the fuses made in BEL’s Pune plant. The logistics would work out better if the fuse plant is set up in Nagpur itself. “The firing range where the components are tested is located at Itarsi which is again close to Nagpur. Finally, the components have to be supplied at the army’s central ammunition depot (CAD) which is at the close by location of Pulgaon,”
said the source.

{So why did the open the facility in Pune! the whole ecosystem is near Nagpur. Maybe they had the bldg already built in Pune and decided to open this facility.}


The company has given a request for 200 acres of land to the MIDC. A source in the MIDC said that the case would be processed soon. BEL plans to come up with the factory within 24 months. The plant would entail an investment of Rs 200 crore.


This will be the fourth BEL plant in the state. “Apart from fuses, the company plans to develop similar systems for guided ammunition in the future,” said the source.


At the VDIA function, another PSU — Bharat Earth Movers Limited (BEML) — also expressed its plans to start a unit in Nagpur. “Opportunities are also being explored by Slovakian defence manufacturer UDS Defence for having business in Nagpur,” said Dushyant Deshpande of VDIA.


Would like to track:
1) Nagpur Butibori Industrial estate authorization was given
2) Whats the BEL progress in building the plant?
3) What is the progress in making 155mm fuzes either at Pune or Nagpur?
4) And wonder of wonders if the guided ammo project is the PGK fuze?

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Gyan » 31 Oct 2018 22:35

I don't think Dhanush & ATAGS production will ever materialize. Any Orders will go to lighter M777 of 52 caliber. Arjun 2 reboot.

In any case, I think MBRLs will superceed higher caliber Artillery. Kalyani 155mm 39 caliber ULH will be adequate for all purposes, in the unlikely situation of ever being ordered.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 31 Oct 2018 23:02

Gyan wrote:I don't think Dhanush & ATAGS production will ever materialize. Any Orders will go to lighter M777 of 52 caliber. Arjun 2 reboot.

In any case, I think MBRLs will superceed higher caliber Artillery. Kalyani 155mm 39 caliber ULH will be adequate for all purposes, in the unlikely situation of ever being ordered.

M777 is way more expensive than ATAGS

nam
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 01 Nov 2018 00:00

Gyan wrote:
In any case, I think MBRLs will superceed higher caliber Artillery.


Not happening. For the simple reason: cost,rate of production & effect area. Not even considering the logistics part..

Number of artillery rounds equivalent to the cost of a rocket, will be able to plaster more area accurately compare to a rocket warhead.

You can produce 1 million shells per month(Russians did in WW1).. not possible to produce 1 million rocket at the same cost.

In fact the opposite is happening. Large caliber artillery is replacing MBRL and guided MBRL replaces aircraft based CAS.

War needs to be economical. MBRL does not make it economical.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby wig » 09 Nov 2018 10:12

Army to induct K9 Vajra, M777 howitzers today

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... 80312.html

excerpted from the article
The induction of 100 K9 Vajra at a cost of Rs 4,366 crore is to complete by November 2020. The first batch of 10 guns will be delivered this month, Defence Ministry spokesperson Col Aman Anand told reporters on Thursday. The next 40 guns will be delivered in November 2019, and another 50 in November 2020, he said.

The first regiment of K9 Vajra, first-ever artillery gun manufactured by the Indian private sector, is expected to complete by July 2019. The gun has a maximum range of 28-38 km. It is capable of burst firing three rounds in 30 seconds, intense firing of 15 rounds in three minutes and sustained firing of 60 rounds in 60 minutes, he said. The Army is also going to raise seven regiments of 145 M777 howitzers.

Five guns each will be delivered to the Army beginning August 2019 and the entire process will complete in following 24 months. The first regiment will complete by October next year, the spokesperson said. The gun, having a range of 30 km, can be moved to a desired location using helicopters and service aircraft. Compact gun tractor to tow 130 MM and 155 MM artillery guns will also inducted during the ceremony, the officer said.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 09 Nov 2018 10:33

Gyan wrote:I don't think Dhanush & ATAGS production will ever materialize. Any Orders will go to lighter M777 of 52 caliber. Arjun 2 reboot.

In any case, I think MBRLs will superceed higher caliber Artillery. Kalyani 155mm 39 caliber ULH will be adequate for all purposes, in the unlikely situation of ever being ordered.


While this like putting our fears out in public, DAC has cleared production 150 ATAGS pieces, not sure when Dhanush and MGS will get mass orders, but Pinaka, ATAGS orders are well under the way unless something like 2004 happens when all defense orders except Su-30 and AJT Hawk orders were cancelled.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 09 Nov 2018 10:52

Firm orders and money transfers to oem must take place by feb 2019 because elections loom

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby arun » 09 Nov 2018 11:20

wig wrote:Army to induct K9 Vajra, M777 howitzers today

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... 80312.html

excerpted from the article
...........{Rest Snipped}............

Compact gun tractor to tow 130 MM and 155 MM artillery guns will also inducted during the ceremony, the officer said.


Guess the "Compact Gun Tractor" that is also to be inducted is the below mentioned puppy, the Ashok Leyland Field Artillery Tractor (FAT) 6x6:

1. ASHOK LEYLAND FAT 6X6 FIRST DRIVE REVIEW

2. Review: Ashok Leyland Super Stallion FAT 6x6


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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 09 Nov 2018 12:29

Image

nam
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 09 Nov 2018 15:46

It is interesting to note how K9 is so stable and is able to manage recoil so well. This is required for MRSI or burst mode firing. The best stable firing I have seen on youtube is by the uber TFTA German SPH, firing 6 rounds in 30 seconds.

Compare this with the Chini SPH, you will notice the difference in quality.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 09 Nov 2018 15:49

Bofors Ghost Finally Dismissed, Indian Army Receives 1st New Howitzers Since Scandal

Livefist reported earlier this year that 25 M777s will be delivered by May 2019 — enough to form the first ultra-light gun regiment. Beyond the first 25 guns that arrive fully built from the United Kingdom, the remaining 120 guns will be assembled at the BAE-Mahindra facility near New Delhi.
...
The MoD said, “The first ten K9 Vajra 155mm/52 calibre guns have been imported from Hanwha Techwin of South Korea in Semi Knocked Down state and have been assemble by L&T in India. The balance 90 Guns will be largely manufactured in India with some major assemblies coming from South Korea. Its induction will give a huge fillip to the firepower capability of Indian Army on our western borders.”


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Kakarat
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 09 Nov 2018 16:16

https://twitter.com/SpokespersonMoD/sta ... 0634472448

Small complement of 12 Regts in 1947 with max rg of about 16 km to the 251 Gun Regts now capb to fire upto 40 km, Land Arty come a long way. With indctn of K9 Vajra T & M777 ULH, MoD wishes more power to the Gunners. More gun systems in pipeline.


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https://twitter.com/PRODefNgp/status/10 ... 2960103424 (Video)

Tracked & Self Propelled 155mm K9 Vajra of #IndianArmy in action at dedicatation ceremony by Honorable Defence Minister Smt Nirmalasita Sitaraman at Field Firing Ranges, Devlali.

In the video we can also see Upgraded Grad, Pinaka & Smerch on display

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby JTull » 09 Nov 2018 17:14

Who are the maroon berets for? RM's security detail?

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 09 Nov 2018 17:17

possibly just photo op! They look pretty decent to aam janta like me.

nam
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 09 Nov 2018 17:44

JTull wrote:Who are the maroon berets for? RM's security detail?


IA Chief Security.

Vips
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 09 Nov 2018 18:44

Wonder why the upgraded M46 (Sharang) was also not included in the display and demonstration of firing. Would have been good to see it.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 09 Nov 2018 19:26

The display was of guns in Army service only

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby dinesh_kimar » 09 Nov 2018 20:05

^ See, the above display does have an up gunned 155 mm from Soltam.
The guns, in order of L-R are: 105 mm IFG, 130 mm M-46, 155 Soltam up gunned Version (Metamorphosis) with distinctive Bofors type muzzle brake and 2 piece barrel and a vanilla Bofors (no Dhanush yet in desert camo).

The Sarang is not displayed as the Army signed the contract only in Oct 25, 2018.

However, 300 guns will be delivered by 2022.

Also, With committed orders of 414 Dhanush, 150 ATAGS, 145 M 777 and 100 Vajra, not to mention 4 regiments of Pinaka and test of Prahaar, the NDA govt. has delivered the Big Guns required to assert our authority in case of a shooting match.

By 2022-23, we should have about 1000 155 mm pieces and 600 legacy M-46, which is much better than 250 Bofors and 700 M-46 during Kargil.

By using OFB and govt to govt deals, chances of scam are less.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Rishi_Tri » 09 Nov 2018 20:22

Joyous occasion no doubt but waiting for the day when ATAGS, Dhanush, Bhim, OFB Mounted Gun etc. are inducted with similar pomp, pageantry, and celebration.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 09 Nov 2018 22:40

One small correction NDA govt has ordered 8 regiments of Pinaka 2 +6 to the original 2 adding to 10 regiments by 2022

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby AdityaM » 10 Nov 2018 00:56

Refer to video at https://twitter.com/livefist/status/106 ... 57888?s=21

After the guns have fired, at 28 seconds the gun on the left has 2 projectile like sudden burst, which leaves a smokey trail.

Or are they rocket launchers placed at a distance.


Edited: how to delete this post.
Last edited by AdityaM on 10 Nov 2018 01:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Indranil » 10 Nov 2018 01:02

dinesh_kimar wrote:The guns, in order of L-R are: 105 mm IFG, 130 mm M-46, 155 Soltam up gunned Version (Metamorphosis) with distinctive Bofors type muzzle brake and 2 piece barrel and a vanilla Bofors (no Dhanush yet in desert camo).

Thanks for this. Newbie in this. But the Sharang also have the same kind of muzzle brake.

Image

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 10 Nov 2018 01:32

The soltam m-46 155mm upgrade also has a single baffle muzzle brake, both the soltam upgrade and OFB Sharang are almost identical and if I am right the OFB Sharang is updated with additional features

This is a Israeli 155mm M-46
Image

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby dinesh_kimar » 10 Nov 2018 01:34

Yes, the earlier Soltam upgrade and Sarang indeed look the same.

I heard this version of events from Kunal Biswas DFI in 2010.

Soltam barrel tech was reportedly very bad, but OFB got valuable breech know how, during the ToT, which they adapted for Dhanush.


( Dhanush= Bofors 45 cal.Barrel + Soltam breech knowhow + local jugaad from Army EME for Breech ring).

The Army calls the above 3 parts assembly as "ordanance", and it's the key to build a local gun/ most critical part.

The carriage, elevating mechanism and trunions, cradle, etc are easier to build locally.

The Soltam upgunned 155 mm had frequent barrel bursts, so no repeat order given to Soltam after the initial 180 kits.

The OFB fixed the Soltam barrel problem using Bofors barrel tech, at the Army' s request.

The Sarang looks the same, but has superior barrel.

The army had competitive trials with Soltam, Punj Lloyd's Yugo import and OFB Sarang, and decided that OFB offered the best solution.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby abhik » 10 Nov 2018 01:58

(US) Army Tests Low-Recoil 155mm Howitzer Small Enough To Fit On The Back Of A Truck
Wonder how different this is compared to the Kalyani mounted gun (given they reportedly had a tie up with Mandus for their soft recoil tech).


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