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Artillery Discussion Thread

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
rohitvats
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 15 May 2017 11:41

Pakistan does not have 72 of those Turkish guns. Nor have any been produced in-house. Pakistan does not produce any artillery piece; does some mods to their older M-109.

As for tracked arty, it is about mobility through a terrain which wheeled vehicles might not be able to cope. Secondly, it carries its own magazine. Plus, the armor does give some protection against shrapnel.

The reason we've limited no of tracked SP arty is because, such terrain where only tracked solution might work was limited to certain areas. We had wheeled and tracked SP arty. Apart from mounted-gun-system - which is also an SP system. Most probably, the wheeled SP arty will see tracked guns instead. So about 280-300 guns in all (including present 100 guns).

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby uddu » 15 May 2017 11:53

Philip wrote:The bridge can allow arty,AVs,MBTs,etc. of upto 60t to use it which makes a huge strat. gain for us in defending the NEast. Here one can see the IA's aversion to Arjun for logistic reasons.

Arjun Mark-1 is less than 60t. And must have been kept in mind while designing this bridge. So we get to move a better tank onto the other side. Now the Army can field Arjun in numbers in Arunachal.
Also the Mark-II is Mark-1 with add on armour and component improvement. The Armour can be fitted on the other side to the Mark-1 and we have Mark-II defending us. So with this bridge Army is provided with the ability to field a better tank like the Arjun all along the NE.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby srai » 15 May 2017 14:15

^^^

There is another bridge under construction for rails and those will support a lot more than 60t.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6651&start=2680#p2156624

Kakkaji
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 18 May 2017 00:34

Big guns: First modern 155 mm artillery guns to land in India after the Bofors scandal of 1980s 8)

NEW DELHI: India has now exorcised the ominous Bofors ghost haunting its artillery modernization plans for the last 30 years. In the first modern 155mm artillery guns to be inducted by the Army since the 1980s, two of the 145 M-777 ultra-light howitzers ordered from the US will touch down here on Thursday morning.

Defence sources on Wednesday said the two howitzers, which will come in a chartered aircraft from the UK, will be taken to the Pokhran ranges for testing and "compilation of the firing tables" for subsequent use. "The firing tables, with the guns being tested for different kinds of Indian ammunition with bi-modular charges, will take some time to be formulated," said a source.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Cosmo_R » 18 May 2017 00:57

rohitvats wrote:Pakistan does not have 72 of those Turkish guns. Nor have any been produced in-house. Pakistan does not produce any artillery piece; does some mods to their older M-109.

As for tracked arty, it is about mobility through a terrain which wheeled vehicles might not be able to cope. Secondly, it carries its own magazine. Plus, the armor does give some protection against shrapnel.

The reason we've limited no of tracked SP arty is because, such terrain where only tracked solution might work was limited to certain areas. We had wheeled and tracked SP arty. Apart from mounted-gun-system - which is also an SP system. Most probably, the wheeled SP arty will see tracked guns instead. So about 280-300 guns in all (including present 100 guns).


Question. Isn't the whole idea behind modern arty to shoot and scoot? For us what does the tracked vs wheeled imply based on location—along the border with pakistan?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Cosmo_R » 18 May 2017 01:03

shiv wrote:

What is mobile warfare?


Ask the Egyptians 8)

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby DrRatnadip » 18 May 2017 08:08

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/big-gun ... 721807.cms

In the first modern 155mm artillery guns to be inducted by the Army since the 1980s, two of the 145 M-777 ultra-light howitzers ordered from the US will touch down here on Thursday morning.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby srai » 18 May 2017 08:34

2019-2020 will be the 155mm artillery bonanza year for the IA. Mass induction will start taking place then.
  • Dhanush 155mm/45 cal
  • K9 Vajra SP 155mm/52 cal
  • M-777 ultra-light 155mm/39 cal

Plus, 2 + 6 Pinaka Regiments would also start mass induction around that time. ATAGS 155mm/52 cal would follow soon after. Follow-on orders for SP and ultra-light are likely. Only the Mounted Gun on a wheeled platform remains to be signed.

By 2025, the IA will be pretty well set with its artillery modernization/expansion.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 18 May 2017 08:44

Cosmo_R wrote:Question. Isn't the whole idea behind modern arty to shoot and scoot? For us what does the tracked vs wheeled imply based on location—along the border with pakistan?

No. Shoot and scoot is only when there is risk of counter battery fire. Otherwise artillery will sit there and blast the others to bits and move only when needed. Artillery is meant to lay down heavy deadly and demoralizing volumes of fire using multiple guns. One shot here and one shot there is no good for that but heavy fire can be maintained by moving between 2-3 presurveyed positions

Khalsa
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Khalsa » 18 May 2017 09:41

YUHOO good times.
Arty, parties {again}!

Singha
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 18 May 2017 09:59

and more importantly the domestic Nalanda plant for the shells seems to be in production. we need millions of shells in stockpile.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Prasad » 18 May 2017 10:45

Manu pubby posted on twitter saying the first two guns are already here :)

la.khan
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby la.khan » 18 May 2017 12:01

srai wrote:2019-2020 will be the 155mm artillery bonanza year for the IA. Mass induction will start taking place then.
  • Dhanush 155mm/45 cal
  • K9 Vajra SP 155mm/52 cal
  • M-777 ultra-light 155mm/39 cal

Plus, 2 + 6 Pinaka Regiments would also start mass induction around that time. ATAGS 155mm/52 cal would follow soon after. Follow-on orders for SP and ultra-light are likely. Only the Mounted Gun on a wheeled platform remains to be signed.

By 2025, the IA will be pretty well set with its artillery modernization/expansion.

Sir, while I welcome induction of new hardware into IA, my pet peeve is these are inducted in piecemeal fashion, a 100 here and another 100 there. By 2025, I wish we induct 800-1000 each of Dhanush, K9, ATAGS. Then, I will consider IA done with artillery modernization.

To get there, we need to produce 2/week, a 100/year and in 7-8 years, we can have 800 guns of each. To me, this looks doable.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby jamwal » 18 May 2017 12:04

How'll you arrange for and manage small aspects like money, personnel training, logistics , testing, ammunition etc etc ?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby la.khan » 18 May 2017 12:12

jamwal wrote:How'll you arrange for and manage small aspects like money, personnel training, logistics , testing, ammunition etc etc ?

Sahib, that is true but we will have 7-8 years for ramping all this, no? Initially, IA may absorb less number of guns but eventually, IA will have all these as part of SOP. If we want to maintain a 2 front posture, we need the requisite hardware, no skimping there.

Just my do paise.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby jamwal » 18 May 2017 12:37

There is not enough manufacturing capability, even if IA can absorb all these numbers. Setting up manufacturing plants and increasing capacity takes time.. But going by how things work here, we'll be lucky to have a total of 500 guns in 8 years,

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby chetak » 18 May 2017 13:17

Prasad wrote:Manu pubby posted on twitter saying the first two guns are already here :)



First two M777 howitzers arrive in India

la.khan
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby la.khan » 18 May 2017 13:46

jamwal wrote:There is not enough manufacturing capability, even if IA can absorb all these numbers. Setting up manufacturing plants and increasing capacity takes time.. But going by how things work here, we'll be lucky to have a total of 500 guns in 8 years,

Very true, agreed. I think OFB will handle manufacture of Dhanush & ATAGS, we will have difficulty in putting together the numbers. If assured of orders, private sector (Bharat Forge, Tatas, L&T, Mahindras, Reliance etc) can make these numbers happen but again can IA induct a 100 guns/year?

The last 30 years were so pathetic for Indian artillery modernization, 500 guns in 8 years is sure looking wonderful! Something is better than nothing :((

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Philip » 18 May 2017 14:01

4/5 each month is not fast enough.We need at least 100-120 guns each year.The Mountain Strike Corps' requirements should also be increased by another 50+.Desi Bofors production must also be enhanced.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby JTull » 18 May 2017 14:16

I'm a bit peeved at this celebratory mood on twitter by all defense bloggers about the first two M777s arriving and also some patronising headlines by news websites. Didn't see such jubilation for Dhanush or ATAGS. What can I say, I'm still just a desi khadi lover.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Rishi_Tri » 18 May 2017 14:44

JTull wrote:I'm a bit peeved at this celebratory mood on twitter by all defense bloggers about the first two M777s arriving and also some patronising headlines by news websites. Didn't see such jubilation for Dhanush or ATAGS. What can I say, I'm still just a desi khadi lover.


Right On.

Another illustrious chapter was added to India's Glorious History of Imports. Worse some guys already calling the 125 to be assembled as Make in India.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Marten » 18 May 2017 14:47

+1
Baba Kalyani or OFB are not glam enough. Titanium is harder than desi steel onlee.

rohitvats
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 18 May 2017 14:52

....and I thought such nonsense was restricted to only LCA thread!

Completely off-topic - may be, M777 is actually being inducted and Dhanush is undergoing user trials from first batch of 3+3 guns? Though technically, it has been inducted because IA took them on its TOE.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Philip » 18 May 2017 14:59

The firang cannon are being acquired becos they're lightweight,urgently req. in the mountains to paste the Chinese with,acquisition process took almost a decade. Surely some celebrations are in order! This modest arrival however represents the IA's arty acquisitions delayed by decades,finally started moving in the right direction. After all even the Bofors guns with which we pasted the Pigs at Kargil were friang ones . Desi Bofors an even greater festival to come.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby srai » 18 May 2017 19:13

Philip wrote:4/5 each month is not fast enough.We need at least 100-120 guns each year.The Mountain Strike Corps' requirements should also be increased by another 50+.Desi Bofors production must also be enhanced.


I think fund crunch is coming. With reports of 90,000 new troops being added by the IA, I don't really see how they will have the money for capital acquisition at the rate you are proposing. Around 80% of their budget goes towards revenue expenditure (i.e. payroll etc), and this will increase with the addition of large numbers of new troops. Artillery gun (and all other new equipment) acquisition rate will be hampered.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby jamwal » 18 May 2017 19:33


Singha
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 18 May 2017 19:35

other than titanium for weight it has nothing going for it vs bigger cats like the dhanush. everything is manual(large crew), no loading crane, no real salvo fire....another 3 legged cheetah.

dhanush/ATAGS put some real meat on the table and I hope we produce 1000s of each.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Marten » 18 May 2017 19:38

Philip wrote:The firang cannon are being acquired becos they're lightweight,urgently req. in the mountains to paste the Chinese with,acquisition process took almost a decade. Surely some celebrations are in order! This modest arrival however represents the IA's arty acquisitions delayed by decades,finally started moving in the right direction. After all even the Bofors guns with which we pasted the Pigs at Kargil were friang ones . Desi Bofors an even greater festival to come.

The acquisition is not in question at all. Celebrations are obviously required regardless of whether or not one poses as the only true unofficial spokesman and defender of IA Arty.

Folks were talking of DDM and Twitter response being celebratory mostly for the imports and not ATAGS and other efforts etc. As far as acquisitions go, more the merrier, Imvho.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Gagan » 18 May 2017 19:39

Can't wait for the 155mm 52 cal desi Guns to be inducted in large numbers. That will be the ultimate thing !
The M-777 is super expensive to boot !

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby jamwal » 18 May 2017 21:11

Most "better" desi journalists like Jha were pretty happy for local guns. It's only the usual sold out dorks like Pandit who are making more noise now.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Marten » 18 May 2017 21:55

Precisely what was being said, JJ...

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ArjunPandit » 18 May 2017 23:00

jamwal wrote:Most "better" desi journalists like Jha were pretty happy for local guns. It's only the usual sold out dorks like Pandit who are making more noise now.

Sjha IS working for country, and RP and MP(manu pabb) cabal works for $$$$$$$$$$$$

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby KrishnaK » 18 May 2017 23:03

Two things re the m777 that I read in some article but can't find can't find again
1. Can be dismantled and transported by Mi17V - source Indian Army.
2. Has a Candian FCS

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Cybaru » 19 May 2017 01:04

Once ATAGS orders are firmed up, it will push IA into a new world order altogether. I think excellent developments for the artillery branch! Didn't Rakesh promise Mithai here as well? :)

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Cybaru » 19 May 2017 01:07

la.khan wrote:Sir, while I welcome induction of new hardware into IA, my pet peeve is these are inducted in piecemeal fashion, a 100 here and another 100 there.


Any number over zero is welcome, which has been the state for this branch of army for last twenty years :lol:

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 19 May 2017 01:35

I think it is a misconception that no artillery was added. There were massive artillery duels in 2000-2003 timeframe. So how did the 300+ bofors survive even to this day?

We must have been importing Bofors parts and some of them must be produced by OFB. Moreover we must be inducting IFG and some Russian howitzer.

Ofcourse it helps when we go around telling everyone we haven't inducted any artillery.

We own one of the largest towed artillery inventory in the world, if not the largest.
We are now moving from "light" to "medium" i.e. 2000 Atags + Dhanush. 155MM !

We will be able to make "Stalingard" of Lahore & karachi sitting on our side of the border.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Gagan » 19 May 2017 02:19

I am pretty sure that the Indian Army has also provided refuge to literally every artillery manufacturer in the world.
The Arty regiment is probabaly a virtual museum of several different types

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Khalsa » 19 May 2017 02:36

^^^
@nam
Speaking from the perspective of the Regiment of the Artillery.

We did not add a new kind of Artillery system.

So what did happen
We added more IFGs as required.
We got rid of the 105 MM SPG (decommed)
We got rid of the Vijaynta Catapault (decommed)
We added Arjun Catapault
We upgraded Russian guns with 155 calibre barrels.
We got Prithvi (various iterations)
We got Pinaka
We got Prahaaar

What did not happen.
the number of Bofors available (%age) to fire slowly kept on dropping.
the number of Russian 130mm available (%age) to fire slowly kept on dropping because these were earmarked for Upgrade or replacement.
Even though it seems we did a lot, the 130 and 155 are the bread and butter and these needed to be brought upto numbers.

Indian Artillery (the tube artillery) is still in the 80s or 90s but about to make a quantum leap by 30 years or so.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 19 May 2017 05:33

^^ Arjun catapult was never added.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ashishvikas » 24 May 2017 11:44

You might also soon see prototypes of a 155mm/52 caliber mounted gun system developed by the Ordnance Factory Board.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/867260783570206720


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