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Artillery Discussion Thread

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JayS
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby JayS » 24 May 2017 13:03

Kalyani is developing Ultra light Hawitzer. GOI should throw weight behind this one so that we can have our own M777 replacement and that can be built in numbers for N-NE sector. Let this 145 nos M777 be an interim solution.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohiths » 24 May 2017 16:52

Lesson from the artillery saga is that home made weapons transform us from third world to best in class in a very short period of time.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ragupta » 24 May 2017 17:24

If India encourages local Manufacturing, within few years we would be self sufficient in artillery and tank systems, In fact everything that IA needs can be procured domestically.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby chetak » 24 May 2017 17:25

The story of how India did/could not obtain new artillery is far too simple to swallow as a mere unfortunate concatenation of circumstances. It looks like a deeply orchestrated and well-hatched conspiracy that played out over three decades to prevent us from purchasing these weapons. It just would not have been possible without the active connivance of a lot of people, a la the tatra truck scam.

Also, the Bofors ammo is very expensive and that by itself had to be imported because we do not make it here in India may be a part of the sinister tale.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Cosmo_R » 24 May 2017 19:02

JayS wrote:Kalyani is developing Ultra light Hawitzer. GOI should throw weight behind this one so that we can have our own M777 replacement and that can be built in numbers for N-NE sector. Let this 145 nos M777 be an interim solution.


Can you keep us posted on this? Have always admired Kalyani. If they can pull off a M-777 , that would be remarkable.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby JayS » 24 May 2017 19:19

Cosmo_R wrote:
JayS wrote:Kalyani is developing Ultra light Hawitzer. GOI should throw weight behind this one so that we can have our own M777 replacement and that can be built in numbers for N-NE sector. Let this 145 nos M777 be an interim solution.


Can you keep us posted on this? Have always admired Kalyani. If they can pull off a M-777 , that would be remarkable.


If I read something, I will post it here anyway. Its reported many times, also Baba Kalyani mentioned it in 2-3 interviews.

Sad that Kalyani's Bharat52 was shot down in its infancy itself (and Tata Power SED's gun as well). GOI should have supported such companies like Bharat Forge or L&T extensively. Why the **** they want to give freebies to Ambanis or Adanis..??

I too admire Baba Kalyani a lot. He is exactly the kind of guy who can forge a good Technology Company. We have much better chances of having decent MIC with such companies rather than Ambanis.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vivek K » 24 May 2017 19:35

Guptaji, you made a big statement! That is the crux of the whole saga. We can be self sufficient and produce world beating weapons. So why does that not happen? Who benefits form India's bias for imports? And who loses?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 24 May 2017 19:59

Cosmo_R wrote:
JayS wrote:Kalyani is developing Ultra light Hawitzer. GOI should throw weight behind this one so that we can have our own M777 replacement and that can be built in numbers for N-NE sector. Let this 145 nos M777 be an interim solution.


Can you keep us posted on this? Have always admired Kalyani. If they can pull off a M-777 , that would be remarkable.


If I remember correctly, Desi ulh prototype is expected by july.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Rahul M » 24 May 2017 21:02

OT : chetak ji I have a ques. for you in civi aviation thread.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby abhik » 25 May 2017 08:55

M777 took a cool 10 years to come, in less than half that time we have the first prototypes of the ATAGS ready. If we started the development of an ULH instead of just putting out tenders we might have had our own in service already.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 25 May 2017 09:00

Way to support is even if atags is chosen as the sole 155/52 the production must be scaled up and farmed out to tata power, bharat forge anyone who has competency not just kept as a sinecure monopoly for ofb to trickle out.

There is no reason to give all such work to ofb.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 25 May 2017 10:34

JayS wrote: Sad that Kalyani's Bharat52 was shot down in its infancy itself (and Tata Power SED's gun as well). GOI should have supported such companies like Bharat Forge or L&T extensively. Why the **** they want to give freebies to Ambanis or Adanis..??
<SNIP>


You seem to forget a minor episode of GCF Jabalpur employees union threatening to go on strike if private sector was allowed to manufacture artillery systems.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 25 May 2017 10:36

abhik wrote:M777 took a cool 10 years to come, in less than half that time we have the first prototypes of the ATAGS ready. If we started the development of an ULH instead of just putting out tenders we might have had our own in service already.


Half that time was possible because someone like BF went and bought a whole artillery manufacturing factory with technical know-how and because TATA Power forged deep links with Denel. And OFB worked on blue-prints from Bofors.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby JayS » 25 May 2017 10:45

rohitvats wrote:
JayS wrote: Sad that Kalyani's Bharat52 was shot down in its infancy itself (and Tata Power SED's gun as well). GOI should have supported such companies like Bharat Forge or L&T extensively. Why the **** they want to give freebies to Ambanis or Adanis..??
<SNIP>


You seem to forget a minor episode of GCF Jabalpur employees union threatening to go on strike if private sector was allowed to manufacture artillery systems.


I didn't say IA shot it down, Rohit. I mentioned GOI not supporting. I know IA even allowed to test these guns in their firing range but MoD babus shot down that attempt too.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 25 May 2017 11:01

^^^I didn't mention army at all. Simply that we've a convoluted system which works for its own benefit. Not the country.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby JayS » 25 May 2017 11:51

rohitvats wrote:^^^I didn't mention army at all. Simply that we've a convoluted system which works for its own benefit. Not the country.

True. And the onus is squarely on the GOI to break the vicious cycle.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 25 May 2017 12:12

Giving monopoly on arty production to gcf to please their employees union is ridiculous. The ringleaders should be jailed and the rest given a ultimatum to work or leave.

We need much faster production and only pvt sector can close the gap.

To face china even a madman wont think a production of 2 or 5 guns a month is sufficient just because thats all gcf can and will do.

Its not building the moon rocket. 100s of trucks and cars roll of factories in india every day. At peak rate general dynamics was delivering 30 f16 a month.

Penny packets are suicide vs prc. All we will get is another localized beating and collapse of govt in next election.

Let govt farm out more atags and dhanush production to private players.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 25 May 2017 12:43

Parallel production order for Dhanush, Mounted Gun System and ATAGS will ensure we can re-equip the army in about 5 years. Same should go for ammunition production.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby tsarkar » 25 May 2017 15:14

OFBs go on strike at the smallest of provocations.

April 2017

http://www.patrika.com/news/jabalpur/or ... r-1554066/

जबलपुर। ओटी में कटौती का विरोध, सरकार द्वारा निजीकरण की नीति लागू करने की योजना का विरोध, न्यू पेंशन नीति आदि मांगों को लेकर आयुध निर्माणी के कर्मचारी हड़ताल पर हैं। तीन दिनों से लगातार जारी हड़ताल के कारण निर्माणियों का काम-काज ठप पड़ा है। कर्मचारियों ने चेताया है कि जबतक उनकी मांगों को पूरा नहीं किया जाता, तबतक वे विरोध प्रदर्शन करते रहेंगे।


2016

http://thehitavada.com/Encyc/2016/6/30/ ... ly-11.aspx

Employees’ unions and associations of Ordnance Factory Khamaria (OFK), Gun Carriage Factory (GCF), Vehicle Factory Jabalpur (VFJ), Grey Iron Foundry (GIF), Central Ordnance Depot (COD), 506 Army Base Workshop, Military Engineering Services (MES), West Central Railway Employees Union (WCREW) and several other organizations have declared to stage series of demonstration and nationwide indefinite strike against the seventh pay commission from July 11.


And the largest union, BPMS is part of BMS that is part of RSS extended family, though in my opinion, that helps channelize govt vision better.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Karan M » 25 May 2017 16:06

:rotfl: If GOI expands the SP policy beyond the ridiculous two company one, then these jerks will quicklycome to their senses.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 25 May 2017 17:46

Better yet, offer compulsory retirement plan. And then privatise the plants to some local company.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ragupta » 25 May 2017 18:55

Vivek K wrote:Guptaji, you made a big statement! That is the crux of the whole saga. We can be self sufficient and produce world beating weapons. So why does that not happen? Who benefits form India's bias for imports? And who loses?


Old habbit die hard. We all know who benefit and benefitted in the past. It is unrealistic and very frustrating if we expect things to change overnight. the best part is things have started to change, and we all hope this is expedited. and the existing legal players can make money through new system, rather than playing spanners in the improvement of system. The crooks in the system and that mentality which is leading to vested interest in the system has to be weeded out. It will happen, but definately all of us who want to see the change have to keep expressing that raising it, to whatever small level of effort it amounts to.

We can keep up our efforts...

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Prem » 26 May 2017 02:13

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/867260783570206720

You might also soon see prototypes of a 155mm/52 caliber mounted gun system developed by the Ordnance Factory Board.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kakarat » 03 Jun 2017 20:26

Army to induct 18 Dhanush artillery guns this year

“Six guns have been undergoing battery trials since April. Another round of trials is scheduled in Pokhran this month. All trials are expected to be completed by July, after which it would be ready for induction into the Army,” a senior Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) official told The Hindu.

The Army has placed an initial order for 114 guns. “The first regiment of 18 guns will be inducted in 2017, another 36 guns in 2018 and 60 guns in 2019, completing the initial order,” an Army source said.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby srai » 05 Jun 2017 10:16

Kakarat wrote:Army to induct 18 Dhanush artillery guns this year

“Six guns have been undergoing battery trials since April. Another round of trials is scheduled in Pokhran this month. All trials are expected to be completed by July, after which it would be ready for induction into the Army,” a senior Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) official told The Hindu.

The Army has placed an initial order for 114 guns. “The first regiment of 18 guns will be inducted in 2017, another 36 guns in 2018 and 60 guns in 2019, completing the initial order,” an Army source said.


Where are the follow-on orders? If the initial orders are going to be completed within the next two years, the follow-on orders must be given soon given that typical lead-times for production are 24 to 36 months. Otherwise, we will see another production line sitting idle after 2019.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby kmkraoind » 05 Jun 2017 11:16

Indian Army working on Mega order of Dhanush Artillery guns: Report - IDRW.org

With production rate of Dhanush Artillery guns to touch 60 per annum in 2019, Bulk order fo 300 Guns will require nearly 5 years for completion of the order but Indian Army is reportedly happy with proposed production timelines since major chunk of orders will likely be reserved for 155-mm, 52-calibre towed Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS) artillery gun developed by DRDO with private defence sector companies .
........
large-scale induction and production will commence from 2024 onwards and Army might be inducting nearly 1500 + Guns over a decade which might see first Private Defence Production orders.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby suryag » 05 Jun 2017 11:22

this is just tareekh pey taareekh like sunny paaji said, all mega orders are hot air

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Gyan » 05 Jun 2017 11:31

Army has shifted goalpost to ATAGS

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kakarat » 05 Jun 2017 11:41

We should also explore the possibility of Dhanush exports to friendly countries especially Vietnam & Afghanistan. We can have a license production agreement with Vietnam with Important parts like barren getting imported from India

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby tsarkar » 05 Jun 2017 11:47

Dhanush orders were always 414,which is more than the holdings of many European nations.

6 have been delivered and remaining 108 will be delivered 2017-2018 (approx 54 per year)

The 300 @ 60 per year is from 2019 to 2024 after which production will shift to ATAGS. This is a great plan with smooth production run and seamless switchover to newer technology. ATAGS gets time to set up subcontractor network and manufacturing facilities.

I personally wish Arjun and truck mounted versions are developed to replace Catapult, etc.

Optimum production run IMO is 100 guns per year with an inventory of 3000 guns in 30 years.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 05 Jun 2017 11:50

can atags be towed around the roads like srinagar to leh. i recall reading even the much shorter fh77b needed the towing trucks to do some back and forth in tricky corners in kargil period. are we able to source all necessary spares and ensure the 400 fh77b are all ready for use?

has that road been widened and fixed up for heavier meat like pralay and atags?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby tsarkar » 05 Jun 2017 13:19

Singha wrote:can atags be towed around the roads like srinagar to leh. i recall reading even the much shorter fh77b needed the towing trucks to do some back and forth in tricky corners in kargil period. are we able to source all necessary spares and ensure the 400 fh77b are all ready for use?

has that road been widened and fixed up for heavier meat like pralay and atags?


Yes, using Field Artillery Tractors though there is an increasing tendency to use commercial flatbed trailers that prevent gun carriage wear due to road debris dry ricochet / wet smearing requiring frequent cleaning.

I've seen these flatbed trucks carrying artillery in Mumbai Agra highway. Earlier they would carry only tanks.

The Gun APU is very short ranged to move between gun positions.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby manjgu » 05 Jun 2017 15:19

tsarkar...but our borders/requirements are also much more than European countries !!? I am sure there must be some rationale for the number 414...Even the Bofors contract was for 410 guns IIRC ( with a option to build i think 800 to 1000 more). Not sure how many of Bofors are still in operation? WIll the planned induction of Dhanush/ATGAS etc mean end of lighter guns?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 05 Jun 2017 15:51

The absence of new 155 mm guns is not really a big issue at a tactical level. As the holding's of 105 and 130 mm guns plus mortars of 81/ 120 mm and above are sufficient for any tactical situation.

The new guns are needed to complete the field arty rationalisation plan of the Indian army.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby mody » 05 Jun 2017 16:46

OFB has already shown a Dhanush-52, a 52 caliber version of Dhanush.
The current plans as they stand are for first order for 45 cal Dhanush for 114 nos. This has already been placed with OFB and as posted above, will probably be delivered by end of 2019.
ATAGS orders will be split between Bharat Forge and Tata SED, with OFB making some components.
Currently two prototypes, 1 each from Bharat Forge and Tata have been produced. The winner will get higher quantity.

Total order quantity of ATAGS to be in the range of 1,500 guns. Total order for Dhanush to be 414 guns. The balance 300 gun is to be placed. It is possible that the balance proposed order for 300 Dhanush guns will be Dhanush-52 guns.
Approximately 800 Truck mounted guns will also be ordered and most likely will be a version ATAGS mounted on Tata trucks.
Tata had already demonstrated a MGS with Denel 155/52 guns on their truck.

The OFB staff at GCF had gone on strike, protesting against the same Tata MGS. The Dhanush guns were ready for trials, but the trials of the same were being delayed. With news of the Tata MGS with Denel guns started coming in, the OFB staff went on strike in protest.

Hopefully, OFB will also be given the order for upgrading the remaining 200-250 odd of the original Bofors guns to Dhanush-45 or Dhanush-52 standard and the ATAGS guns will be given solely to Bharat Forge and Tata SED.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby abhik » 05 Jun 2017 17:24

On what basis were Tata SED and Kalyani chosen as 'primes' ? We're there others​ in contention, including OFB?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ashishvikas » 05 Jun 2017 20:15

Tweets by SJha1618

There has been talk of ordering more than just 23 regiments (18 units a regiment) of OFB's Dhanush 155mm howitzer family.

Some want the final order to be in the 33 regiment range.

Meanwhile @DRDO_India expects to see its production partners get orders for 8 regiments of the ATAGS up front.

With a total order of 50 plus regiments eventually.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/871727946431696897

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 06 Jun 2017 09:50

abhik wrote:On what basis were Tata SED and Kalyani chosen as 'primes' ? We're there others​ in contention, including OFB?


Because both had put money into artillery systems much before DRDO came into picture with ATAGS. TATA Power SED with Denel and Bharat Forge with their purchase of Austrian gun. ATAGS has come online in double quick time because of substantial inputs from these two companies. And that's why each of them has been asked to develop a model each.

DRDO collaboration with L&T and TATA Power SED on Pinaka has been a success story. Same model with ATAGS will ensure that the gun is produced in required timeline and with required quality standards.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 06 Jun 2017 09:52

Hope this talk of ordering more Dhanush is true. And between order for 33 Regiments of Dhanush and 50 Regiments of ATAGS, IA will fill about 1,500 guns order. Now, someone please develop a Dhanush based MGS in double quick time.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby abhik » 06 Jun 2017 10:07

rohitvats wrote:
abhik wrote:On what basis were Tata SED and Kalyani chosen as 'primes' ? We're there others​ in contention, including OFB?


Because both had put money into artillery systems much before DRDO came into picture with ATAGS. TATA Power SED with Denel and Bharat Forge with their purchase of Austrian gun. ATAGS has come online in double quick time because of substantial inputs from these two companies. And that's why each of them has been asked to develop a model each.

DRDO collaboration with L&T and TATA Power SED on Pinaka has been a success story. Same model with ATAGS will ensure that the gun is produced in required timeline and with required quality standards.

Any sources or links?


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