Artillery: News & Discussion

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chetak
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by chetak »

Rahul M wrote:chetak ji, IIRC OSA stays valid lifelong, it is the dept. specific acts that have a limited period valifity.
If in govt service or actively involved for eg: contractors, OSA validity is 10 years from date of retirement/cease involvement with project.

Contractors have to sign the OSA as well as an indemnity bond for taking part in any and all trials indemnifying the GoI against all damages and injury and death claims.

Non uniformed GoI personnel have to sign the indemnity bond even before boarding a Mil aircraft for flight.
srai
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by srai »

...
Side slap due to wear could have been the cause for this July incident. Why didn't the shell go off?
...
From that TOI article, it seems to be a common problem for all large and long artillery guns. But the incident seem to be very low and seem to occur under some special conditions. When that occurs the range is reduced. Shell bursting doesn't happen. May 27 event seem to be more of a freak incident (or some accident or shell/fuse quality issues). For Dhanush, we are hearing of muzzle break contact two times out of extensive user trials and exploitation trails. Older Bofors and Israeli upgraded 130mm in service have also experienced this phenomenon. No shells bursts been reported in those instances.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by negi »

^ Side slap can cause a shell to go off if the fuze is armed and is designed to go off on impact (be it head on or grazing impact); of course all depends on how violent the side slap is i.w what is impulse which the shell experiences when decelerating within the barrel due to the side slap, however in this case side slap was not the only event that occurred as per reports shell did hit the muzzle break so if the impact was much closer to a head on impact shell would go off.
srai
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by srai »

Won't there be some safety on the fuse to not go off that soon?
ramana
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

srai, Due to longer barrel the safety gets enabled when it reaches the 2000 rpm minimum.
Note the South African reports in the scribd file linked by tsarkar.

How many groves in the Dhanush and we know the barrel length and can figure out the spin rate.
ramana
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

So what fuzes are used for the 105mm IFG/LFG?
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by negi »

To figure out the spin rate we need to know both the muzzle velocity and the twist right ?
Bishwa
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Bishwa »

During the Sept 87 Pakistani attack on Bilafond La in Siachen, the 70 Medium Regiment based at Siachen Base Camp was providing fire support using 130MM guns.

Given the intensity of battle and the desire to support the troops, the rate of fire was very high. Perhaps higher than recommended and it resulted in one of the guns barrel bursting.

Lk Nk S Jayaprakash, Gnr Mukundan and Gnr Machimada lost their lives in that incident.

Such is the risks artillery men take... Hope the section injured in this particular incident get well soon
ramana
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

negi wrote:To figure out the spin rate we need to know both the muzzle velocity and the twist right ?
Yes. We should get that for Bofor and Dhanush.
M.V. and twist.
Will look it up in Google chacha.
abhik
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by abhik »

X-post
Iyersan wrote: https://mobile.twitter.com/s_navroop/st ... 0619278336

Shocking CAG report in detail in public domain
As per this the yearly ammo production target are: -
155mm -> ~90k
130mm -> 100k
105mm-> ??
120mm mortar -> 60k
81mm mortar -> 300k
ramana
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Ok regarding the first failure with shell burst in the barrel here is a TOI report

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... goes-final

"It outclassed the Bofors during the trials in Sikkim at sub-zero temperatures at 11,500 feet altitude," said an official. The final summer trials, in turn, are being held from June 16 to 30 at Pokhran. There was a slight setback to the project when the barrel of a Dhanush prototype had burst during firing trials at Pokhran in August last year. But officials contend it was the use of "old ammunition with air bubbles" that led to the accident. "The inquiry established there was no fault with the barrel or its metallurgy," he said.
Air bubbles in shells is a major cause of shell premature explosion. The air bubble is really an air-gap and that causes the contents to ram through the gap and the shock sets it off. Air gap is caused while the poring of the molten explosive in the shell. Usually its vacuum cast to preclude this and later neutron ray examined as X- Rays cant see through the organic chemicals.

So lets stop worrying about the first barrel burst.

Next regarding the development trials of the Dhanush gun it was fired for 2000 rounds to proof it.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/G ... 494231.ece
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by srai »

ramana wrote:srai, Due to longer barrel the safety gets enabled when it reaches the 2000 rpm minimum.
Note the South African reports in the scribd file linked by tsarkar.

How many groves in the Dhanush and we know the barrel length and can figure out the spin rate.
Can't you set the minimum rpm based on gun type? Was it set incorrectly?
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Akshay Kapoor »

Indranil wrote:You shouldn't have. Even if this is true, let GoI reveal what it needs to reveal. If IA or GoI have not spoken about it, there may be reasons.

On a different note, accidents may happen. But, criminal proceedings should become a norm for criminal neglect. If these injuries are true and if CoI comes out saying that it was because somebody's chai or lunch was getting late, OFB would have find a motivated denouncer in me.
Dj's point was that no one on this forum even bothered to ask 'hey were there any casualties'. Absolutely no concern for the men. Was it wrong for DJ to have asked that question Indranil ?

It's sad is that I logged in after some time expecting that after all the protestations and vehement denials in the feedback thread and my exchange with a webmaster offline that things will change - atleast with moderators. Sadly no.

Another example is how Tsarkar has explained several times what these trials are about. Yet some poster posts an inane post about 'trial going on and on'. And three mods posting on this thread and none bothered to correct this. And only one of them showing concern for casualties and that too after DJ points out that no one has asked this question.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by niran »

Manish_Sharma wrote:
srai wrote: Any source for this? Haven't seen it reported yet.
I am sending this to Sudhir Chaudhary of Zee and Arnab Republic Channel chiding the MSM not reporting it. Maybe they we I'll acknowledge maybe not.

I urge fellow BRFites to do same.
NO ONE can to anywhere it stays HERE. it is priviledged knowledge not for soodheer this or repubik that. and i have means to inflict serious pain to those unheeding. take it as friendly advise.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by niran »

long time back during one on one between Arjun and T90 i posted some figers here and plain forgot there are gossip nannies here it went out there are many sites reporting it verbatim still.
then i took it upon myself to keep my sources safe sound and healthy not this time anyone blabering gossiping..........
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by suryag »

AK/DJ sir - kindly pardon me for the trials comment, am not insensitive to any injury caused to the personnel in forces and believe me i have been in engineering for 19 years now(including factory management and safety issues) and i understand the pain caused by faulty equipment. Having said that however, the question/comment was aimed at a larger malaise afflicting indigenous product development process and my comment was in that direction. In this regard, both forces and the DRDO have big deficiencies in mindset, skillset and experience and this has to be cleaned up sooner or later for us to be somewhat effective in product development. DJ sir lost your email, can you please share yours, need your perspective on a small writeup that deals with this very subject of indigenous product dev
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Manish_Sharma »

niran wrote: NO ONE can to anywhere it stays HERE. it is priviledged knowledge not for soodheer this or repubik that. and i have means to inflict serious pain to those unheeding. take it as friendly advise.
Ok Niran ji, Just was waiting for you permission. Not sending to anyone.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by niran »

Manish_Sharma wrote:
niran wrote: NO ONE can to anywhere it stays HERE. it is priviledged knowledge not for soodheer this or repubik that. and i have means to inflict serious pain to those unheeding. take it as friendly advise.
Ok Niran ji, Just was waiting for you permission. Not sending to anyone.
a ton of thanks sir
shaun
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by shaun »

Is there a way to castigate , those responsible for shoddy jobs done at those OFBs . It's not limited to only artillery rounds , from rifles to bombs carried by ACs , there are several instances , man in uniform got maimed or killed due to the work culture of those OFB baboons . In the latest case , is there a mechanism to identify the batch ( must be) , pin point the workers in the particular shift. Criminal proceeding stating from those workers involved will bring out those snakes inside. Slightly OT , In India no one is answerable , sply Govt baboons .
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by archan »

niran ji you do realize that the MIl forum is open to public..?
suryag
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by suryag »

why dont you delete it sir
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Bala Vignesh »

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Dj's point was that no one on this forum even bothered to ask 'hey were there any casualties'. Absolutely no concern for the men. Was it wrong for DJ to have asked that question Indranil ?

It's sad is that I logged in after some time expecting that after all the protestations and vehement denials in the feedback thread and my exchange with a webmaster offline that things will change - atleast with moderators. Sadly no.

Another example is how Tsarkar has explained several times what these trials are about. Yet some poster posts an inane post about 'trial going on and on'. And three mods posting on this thread and none bothered to correct this. And only one of them showing concern for casualties and that too after DJ points out that no one has asked this question.
Sorry about the OT mods.

Akshay sir,
Most of us were complacent on the operator injuries since not even one report mentioned about it, which is strange considering the way our media operates. Had there even been an inkling we would have reacted differently.
Talking about the UET, you would notice that except for a nanha mujahid, most of the senior and contributing members to the thread have understood and accepted it, for the most part.

I would not want to see people like you and Deejay sir, who have served the country and have immense first hand experience of things most of us have no idea about and the process behind them, leave out of frustration here.
BTW I have a pooch for you in the newbie thread. Do help clarify it when able.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by shiv »

Bala Vignesh wrote: Most of us were complacent on the operator injuries since not even one report mentioned about it, which is strange considering the way our media operates. Had there even been an inkling we would have reacted differently.
This is the difference between information and knowledge, but BRFites outside of the armed forces do not understand. A few days ago a cynical reply to one of my posts suggested that I need not be especially sympathetic to the armed forces.

But I think don't any one of us comes anywhere near living in dangerous conditions, to the extent that we come off as not just ignorant, but plain stupid. In society a doctor is given the right to tell his patient that he is ignorant and stupid and needs to learn, but a soldier is not supposed to do that. Most cynical civilians seem to think that armed forces people are at risk only if there is war and in peacetime they lead a cushy life skimming off Army canteen subsidized stuff.

But even carrying around ammunition and firing a gun puts one's own person at some risk. Most desis have zero experience of holding a weapon let alone shooting a firearm and it is deadly powerful stuff - that can put one's own life in danger from various issues ranging from mishandling to component failure. And this is at peacetime when no one is shooting at them.

All of us must have read Deejay's heartfelt message about his mate who died in a helo crash while rescuing flood victims. Flying itself is unnatural and flying up in a 5 ton metal box is definitely more risky than going to office every day.

On the other hand we have forum strategic thinkers who tell us "Oh 105 mm is not enough for Himalayas. We need 155 mm" and so on. We see these weapons as toys that will kill Pakis and Chinese and do not even think for a millisecond that an artillery shell is a bomb that is thrown forward by another bomb. One bomb (the propellant) goes off within a few meters of the faces of men who are operating the cannon and the other bomb is supposed to fly off tens of kilometers and burst under a paki's ass. Great fun. No one on BRF stops to think about the risk of bomb no 2 (the artillery projectile) going off a few meters away. Only people who have operated this stuff or have seen it from close by can see how dangerous this equipment is even when handled well and with no failures and how these people are actually putting their lives on line every day - peacetime or wartime. They just don't talk about it. And some of us take the attitude that we pay them to die. Nice.

So by and large we are a bunch of ignoramuses and operate under the excuse that "We are here to learn". Fine. Let us all learn - but no one is going to learn anything by contempt for the people whose job we want to learn about. I think soldiers need to be given space to speak and for us to listen. The media are idiots, no better than us. Anyhow - I am hoping to see some positive changes in BRF.
ramana
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Yusuf of DFI article in Swarajya on Dhanush says the shell that burst was 12 years old.

Arrhenius Equation says says we lose half life for every 10 degree C of temperature storage.

http://www.chemguide.co.uk/physical/bas ... enius.html

I agree with Singha that match quality ammo should be used for the proof and user trials.

We don't know how those 12 year old shells were stored.

I deal with these sort of issues of chemical aging.

Then the other report said air bubbles in the shell.
So its double whammy.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

BTW there is some good news in the CAG report table if you look carefully.
Should be able to report soon.
ramana
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Folks there is lot of emotions going on. Doesn't help if stuff is raked up or shoot from others shoulders.
We all have a share in it.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by negi »

I think we are taking senti stuff a bit too far ; no one asked about injuries because until Niran posted there was no such indication in any news source and before people cry about how insensitive people are about forces we have threads here dedicated to crashes and mishaps in services we never have threads for someone dying on line of duty in other sectors so can we stop this lousy line of argument ?
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by niran »

archan wrote:niran ji you do realize that the MIl forum is open to public..?
:mrgreen: :mrgreen:
saar those press will need to log in and read it here what are the chances of that happening? a hiso no time for yamraj nayshoon want to known doorknob logging on to BRF for a WhatWasTheName arty piece? preposterous i say
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

So its IED?
deejay
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by deejay »

negi wrote:I think we are taking senti stuff a bit too far ; no one asked about injuries because until Niran posted there was no such indication in any news source and before people cry about how insensitive people are about forces we have threads here dedicated to crashes and mishaps in services we never have threads for someone dying on line of duty in other sectors so can we stop this lousy line of argument ?
Oh brilliant again! Absolute gem again.

This is a mil forum hence mostly military people are mentioned. Please do create threads for those dying in line of duty in all sectors please at the appropriate place or here. Loss of life is tragic and shall be given its due importance and recognition.

The consideration is for an accident and the safety for people around and not some senti stuff of forces alone.

Let us see it this way - Back in the '80s and '90s while I was school boy in Jamshedpur we were unfortunately used to hearing about industrial accidents. Workers even lost their lives. Nine out of ten cases, it was the fault of the humans and not machine and yet every single time production would stop to identify the root cause, rectify it and then restart production.

The Arty gun shell burst incident is a similar accident which needs cause identification and rectification. That will be done by those tasked for it and we need to accept it. The trigger to my post was a rather self assuming conclusion which I had countered and I have mentioned here:
deejay wrote:
srai wrote:
If this happened to the imported ULH during exploitation phase (meaning contract already signed and deliveries have begun), would the IA have the authority to tell BAE to make changes and stop production before further can be inducted? Don't think so. They will have to induct all and work with the limitation. Down the road, they will need to pay for modifications.
The answer is - Yes. If the contracts are properly drafted.

However, this a very interesting post. It goes into a hypothetical situation...
would the IA have the authority to tell BAE to make changes and stop production before further can be inducted?...
and then gives a definitive answer...
... Don't think so. They will have to induct all and work with the limitation. Down the road, they will need to pay for modifications.
Brilliant.
The Jawans operating the gun are the workers akin to those at Tata Motors. The top management (Officers in IA Arty) are responsible to make sure that soldiers are not exposed to identified risks unnecessarily. It does not matter if the system is BAE / OFB. By not addressing this angle of safety but focusing only on the technical aspects the discussions reach conclusions which are incorrect.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by negi »

^ You are getting worked up for no reason ; point was simple there was no indication of anyone losing a life or getting injured until Niran posted . Point that no one cared about asking about injured hence is moot .
deejay
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by deejay »

^^^ The point was to show posters like "srai" that inquiry would happen and corrections made irrespective of BAE/OFB.

P.S. Do not patronize me on what is necessary and what is unnecessary. I will decide that for myself.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Indranil »

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Indranil wrote:You shouldn't have. Even if this is true, let GoI reveal what it needs to reveal. If IA or GoI have not spoken about it, there may be reasons.

On a different note, accidents may happen. But, criminal proceedings should become a norm for criminal neglect. If these injuries are true and if CoI comes out saying that it was because somebody's chai or lunch was getting late, OFB would have find a motivated denouncer in me.
Dj's point was that no one on this forum even bothered to ask 'hey were there any casualties'. Absolutely no concern for the men. Was it wrong for DJ to have asked that question Indranil ?

It's sad is that I logged in after some time expecting that after all the protestations and vehement denials in the feedback thread and my exchange with a webmaster offline that things will change - atleast with moderators. Sadly no.

Another example is how Tsarkar has explained several times what these trials are about. Yet some poster posts an inane post about 'trial going on and on'. And three mods posting on this thread and none bothered to correct this. And only one of them showing concern for casualties and that too after DJ points out that no one has asked this question.
Unfortunately sir, you have given me a long lecture before realizing what had ACTUALLY happened. My post was not in response to deejay. It was in response to manish_sharma's post (which has now been deleted for good reason).
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by niran »

Arty is for wholesale destruction, yes? why? for Peace of course. thus everyone step back take deep breaths and come back peacefuly. accidents happen and no one wants an accident on their hands. investigation root cause analysis under going. order for 1500 is out it won't be cancled until it is a design fault. first instance it is shell not the gun itself.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by suryag »

Niran ullah if 1500 dhanush are ordered and if OFB delivers it @ 100/yr i will supply buttermilk/food full day to traffic police stationed at bellandur junction ... pramisss
Akshay Kapoor
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Akshay Kapoor »

negi wrote:^ You are getting worked up for no reason ; point was simple there was no indication of anyone losing a life or getting injured until Niran posted . Point that no one cared about asking about injured hence is moot .
Point is - 8-10 men standing within 2-3 meters of a 155mm shell bursting. Laws of physics - they will be hurt. Why do you need a media report for that ? So the fact that no one asked this question means one of two things - either they can't do any independent thinking and value add here. Or they don't care.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by jamwal »

niran wrote:
archan wrote:niran ji you do realize that the MIl forum is open to public..?
:mrgreen: :mrgreen:
saar those press will need to log in and read it here what are the chances of that happening? a hiso no time for yamraj nayshoon want to known doorknob logging on to BRF for a WhatWasTheName arty piece? preposterous i say
Nobody needs to login to read what is posted on this forum except General discussion section.
If you have some confidential information which should not be made public, do not post it here. It is very naive to post something in a public forum, expecting to keep it limited and then to threaten act like Liam Neeson in Taken movies when the inevitable happens.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Akshay Kapoor »

Indranilji, there was no way for me to know that your post was not a response to DJ and the subsequent posting of casualty figures by the good doc. However the points I made unfortunately are true and are not restricted to this thread. Intention was not to lecture. Anyway I promise no more lectures or comments or posts from me.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Philip »

If this has happened with the desi Bofors,can you imagine the possibilities of other systems similarly being sabotaged/cheapened by unscrupulous traitorous govt. servants? Many years ago after the frequent MIG-21 crashes post Sov.Union,investigators allegedly found that grey market spares picked up from dubious Warsaw Pact nations were passed off as genuine spares from Russia.These were used mostly on HAL built aircraft which led to a war between HAL and the IAF as to who was responsible.Now that scandal and the latest OFB one-we've had numerous complaints about OFB munitions being unfit for battle before,could not have been perpetrated unless there re powerful entities within the MOD and the DPSUs.At the receiving end are the services,who lose precious lives in the bargain (pilots),families of those affected and the taxpayers and nation at large.

Such treasonous activities must receive the highest punishment possible,as these perpetrators and nothing less than traitors. The PM''s secretariat along with the DM/HM ministers,should set up a spl. anti-corruption wing for investigating the defence establishment in general,(MOD/DPSUs/Services) alone,to limit the no. of cases.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Bishwa »

niran wrote:
archan wrote:niran ji you do realize that the MIl forum is open to public..?
:mrgreen: :mrgreen:
saar those press will need to log in and read it here what are the chances of that happening? a hiso no time for yamraj nayshoon want to known doorknob logging on to BRF for a WhatWasTheName arty piece? preposterous i say

Even a simple google search for "dhanush, damaged, injured" with additional tags will return your post.

Please do not post confidential information here
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