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Artillery Discussion Thread

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nachiket » 14 Dec 2017 00:14

^^Also, Dhanush and ATAGS are both towed. Only difference is the caliber. SO why is ATAGS categorized as Defensive/Offensive and DHanush only Defensive?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ArjunPandit » 14 Dec 2017 00:36

Karan M wrote:Towed guns can follow formations. How are they only defensive?
my bad completely slipped out of my mind that Dhanush is Towed. Thanks for the correction to karan m and nachiket.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 14 Dec 2017 00:44

Arjun Pandit, Good year end status summary.

On Dhanush, trials should have resumed in December 2017 per Frontline article. Also a Dhanush Integration Center is to be setup to ensure smooth induction.

Also I thought I made my explanation simple with out the second order diff equations in all the papers! :(

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ArjunPandit » 14 Dec 2017 01:30

ramana wrote:Arjun Pandit, Good year end status summary.

On Dhanush, trials should have resumed in December 2017 per Frontline article. Also a Dhanush Integration Center is to be setup to ensure smooth induction.

Also I thought I made my explanation simple with out the second order diff equations in all the papers! :(


Thanks for your compliment sir, may be those DEs would have made me apply my mind. The thing i learnt from those numerous posts was "base bleed". Its more because of my lack of efforts rather than yours. I havent seen many modern artillery guns, so it is difficult to relate. The closest I have been to a real artillery gun was in DefExpo 2013. Tata/OFB People were hardly keen to entertain a non-tata non military person, esp towards the end of the day.

Rant mode on:
If a picture is 1000 words then a real one is worth 1000 images. We dont have many museums or museum culture too. 100s of migs/T55s have been retired or are going to be retired. I am sure some of them can be gifted to IITs/RECs.
This is one area I feel DRDO/Indian army can stimulate the interests/minds of students. The items that are being retired or junked can be given to engineering colleges along with introduction. I have seen students spending time on fine arts (my term:farts), can't things like these be used as teaching aids. We can't demilitarize entire generations, let them open to the leftist media, expose them to liberal propaganda of bollywood/aap/congress, let them booze/dope and listen to honey singh and expect them to be patriotic and willing to lay lives for our nation.
Rant mode off:
That is why i love APJAK more than any other person in our recent memory. In my eyes he's the swami vivekanand of our military research, who reignited the can do belief in the minds.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 15 Dec 2017 08:07

Still pursuing the OFB shell defects. From the CAG report on the Army Ammunition Management Report 2015

Page 32 on defects in 155mm shells ERFB/BB shells made at OF Chanda. Empty shell is made at OF Ambajhari

Chanda Makes ERFB/BB and Badmal makes ERFB/BT.

Same page has awful pictures of corrosion at the driving band and shell interface. Since the band is copper and shell is steel the corrosion is blue green indicating galvanic corrosion. (My conclusions)

In Jan 2010 thru Jan 2011, during proof test of 4 lots of shells (total 8000), met with accidents leading to breaking the muzzle and rejection of the lots leading to a loss of Rs. 8 Crores. Note 23 says a task force was setup in Jan 2012 to find root cause and ruled in Oct 2012, there was no deficiency in the gun but probable cause was poor/improper knurling at the driving band along with rusting which might lead to stripping of the driving band during motion of the projectile resulting in the accident.



We have no report if this was fixed.

In my view the region round the driving band before it is fitted should be phosphate coated to prevent galvanic corrosion by introducing a chemical barrier. If this coating is done improperly it leads to corrosion later.

Page 34 has similar corrosion at the driving band but for 105mm IFG shells. These are made at Badmal and in Annexure VIII, Page 59 we see there was muzzle strike for 105mm guns and two lots of total 8000 shells rejected.

So I don't know how that OFB Spokesman can say there are no defects in shells made by OFB. He should read the CAG reports or go take a walk in the factories mentioned.

I think the problem is at Badmal with improper processes for phosphate coating.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 15 Dec 2017 13:05

Karan M wrote:Towed guns can follow formations. How are they only defensive?


Yes, Arjun Pandit the categorisation of roles is wrong. For example the M777 are part of the Mountain Strike Corps which is a 'offensive' formation. A large part of their role will be to pound enemy in preparation for attack. Or lets go to the LC. Before the so called cease fire if Pak arty would fire we would retaliate in double the volume. Is that offense (double the volume), defense (reactive) or just counter battery fire. The excellent articles by Rohit Vats on Arty divisions and maneouver by fire show how the art divs use arty in highly offensive mode. In fact they create mobility for other formations. The towed gun compenent of those are the 130 mm. So don't confuse mobility or calibre with offensive or defensive.

There is only one truly defensive arty gun and this is an anti aircraft gun. But even that can be used in a offensive role by using it against enemy bunkers and not aircraft. Dhanush and ATAGS will probably have broadly the same roles. Any weapon is offensive or defensive only by use. And use is defined by the situation. For example mortars can be used by infantry in attack or in defensive so can a LMG or even a rifle !

We will cover offensive and defensive arty tactics in the Tactics thread and I'm sure Ramanaji will have a lot to say on it.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Rakesh » 16 Dec 2017 23:17

Army awaits howitzer mishap report, hopes artillery upgrade plan stays on track
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... yPQoM.html

The 155mm 39-calibre howitzers are being inducted to increase the Army’s capabilities in high altitudes, and will be deployed in the country’s northern and eastern sectors.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 20 Dec 2017 14:17

I was just think seeing the LCA thread, I know we have MLRS for longer range targets, but for line of sight operations, wouldn't those Air force 63mm be really useful to the Army, especially from High ground to target enemy for Low ground to the visible enemy post?

Do we have any of those Zuni type airforce rockets for Army use?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ArjunPandit » 20 Dec 2017 21:07

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Karan M wrote:Towed guns can follow formations. How are they only defensive?

We will cover offensive and defensive arty tactics in the Tactics thread and I'm sure Ramanaji will have a lot to say on it.

I learn and unlearn almost everyday here.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 21 Dec 2017 00:43

Aditya_V wrote:I was just think seeing the LCA thread, I know we have MLRS for longer range targets, but for line of sight operations, wouldn't those Air force 63mm be really useful to the Army, especially from High ground to target enemy for Low ground to the visible enemy post?

Do we have any of those Zuni type airforce rockets for Army use?


No. ZUNI is 5" rocket.

63 mm/ 70 mm rockets are high velocity 2.75" in metric.

The first aircraft rockets were British 60 lbs rockets for the Hawker Hurricane. These were slow speed and had wide dispersion. Those Vampires at Chamb had this clunkers.
The US and French came up with high velocity aircraft rockets (HVAR) which due to the high velocity had low dispersion.

The Orurgans had this version and yet the Vampires were sent.

Zuni is a US rocket and were 5" big diameter rockets used in Korean War.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ashishvikas » 21 Dec 2017 15:11

Indigenous artillery gun ATAGS to undergo winter trials in Sikkim

Dec 21, 2017

A locally made gun is set to undergo crucial trials in January at a time when the army has sharpened its focus on its long-delayed artillery modernisation programme.

The indigenous 155mm 52-calibre Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS), jointly developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and the private sector, will kick off winter trials in the Sikkim sector, a senior army officer said.


http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... LyLXJ.html

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 21 Dec 2017 15:16

Hit Targets close to Doklam.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 22 Dec 2017 02:02

Could you please post the full text as it has lot of info and my phone is not helping.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Rakesh » 22 Dec 2017 02:24

It freezes in IE but not in Chrome. So weird! Here is the full text.

Indigenous artillery gun ATAGS to undergo winter trials in Sikkim
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... LyLXJ.html

21 Dec 2017, Rahul Singh

The 155mm 52-calibre ATAGS set a record during trials in Rajasthan’s Pokhran in September, firing shells to a range of 48 km.

A locally made gun is set to undergo crucial trials in January at a time when the army has sharpened its focus on its long-delayed artillery modernisation program. The indigenous 155mm 52-calibre Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS), jointly developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and the private sector, will kick off winter trials in the Sikkim sector, a senior army officer said. The ATAGS set a record during trials in Rajasthan’s Pokhran in September, firing shells to a range of 48 km, against army’s requirement of 40 km. The defence ministry sanctioned the ATAGS project in September 2012 and the DRDO has partnered with Bharat Forge and Tata Power (Strategic Engineering Division) SED to develop two prototypes of the towed artillery guns. The two prototypes underwent their maiden structural stability trials in December 2016 at Proof & Experimental Establishment, a government test facility at Balasore in Odisha. A letter of intent has been given to the DRDO for 150 ATAGS, an army source said. The value of DRDO-developed/upgraded systems inducted into the armed forces during the last three years stands at Rs 1.1 lakh crore, the government told Lok Sabha on Wednesday. These systems do not include strategic weapons.

The army’s field artillery rationalisation plan (FARP), cleared in 1999, lays down the roadmap for inducting new 155mm weaponry, including tracked self-propelled guns, truck-mounted gun systems, towed artillery pieces and wheeled self-propelled guns. The Rs 50,000-crore FARP seeks to equip 169 artillery regiments with a mix of nearly 3,000 guns over the next decade. The army is looking to induct another indigenously developed 155mm 45-calibre towed artillery gun called Dhanush. But the programme has been delayed as the gun was involved in mishaps during trials. (Here, 155 mm denotes the diameter of the shell and calibre relates to barrel length.) The force is awaiting a report on an accident involving its new M777 ultra-light howitzer. The BAE Systems-manufactured gun was partly damaged when a 155mm artillery round misfired and exploded in its barrel during a drill at the Pokhran firing ranges in September. The M777 order is the first contract for artillery guns in almost 30 years after the Bofors scandal unfolded in the late 1980s. India signed the Rs 5,000-crore deal with the US in November 2016 for 145 howitzers.
Last edited by ramana on 22 Dec 2017 02:30, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added highlights for key points. ramana

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 22 Dec 2017 02:35

Winter trials are very crucial as the longer range is needed in the Himalayas.
Also cold weather has a tendency to cause fuze break off as noted in many artillery barrages in previous world wars.

I do hope they zero in on the root cause as the OFB shells are exploding in barrels across many different guns: 39 caliber guns Bofors and M777, Soltam and Dhanush 45 caliber guns. Definitely a shell issue and would be shame to blame the guns.



So far news reports suggest its the ERFB/BB shells that have this issue.

Did they have issues with M107 shells?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 22 Dec 2017 02:59

Sometime back I had mentioned that ATK has develop a precision fuze for mortars. The importance of this fuze is the CEP of a 120 mm mortar shell is 135 meters. If the mortar is rifled that is induces spin the CEP is 75 m. And MGK has CEP of 10M with demonstrated accuracy of 4 m.
Now a 120 mm mortar shell has blast radius of 60 meters and a range of 6000 to 7000 meters. So suddenly the mortar becomes a very effective weapon.

To make this work the shell has to be spun. They do this by a modified new tail fin that is canted or angle inducing spin.

I don't know if IA mortars are rifiled or smooth bore.




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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ArjunPandit » 22 Dec 2017 03:19

To put things in perspective ATAGs range is approaching the range of NASR, assuming pakis would have added few extra kms

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Rishi_Tri » 22 Dec 2017 05:28

Will the range be higher in Sikkim given the altitude? Say 55km!

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 22 Dec 2017 06:31

ramana wrote:I do hope they zero in on the root cause as the OFB shells are exploding in barrels across many different guns: 39 caliber guns Bofors and M777, Soltam and Dhanush 45 caliber guns. Definitely a shell issue and would be shame to blame the guns.

So far news reports suggest its the ERFB/BB shells that have this issue.

Did they have issues with M107 shells?


ramanaji:

Have you sent your analysis to the powers-that-be? I think you should.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 25 Dec 2017 11:40

Karan M wrote:Interesting. Desperate times, desperate measures. Disagree with OFB gent who says rejection on flimsy grounds.
http://i.imgur.com/k5ooDRE.jpg



Image


Wonder what the flimsy reasons were? Dimensional or what? Which dimension?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ashishvikas » 31 Dec 2017 10:17

Artillery gun Dhanush’s induction into Army delayed

Dinakar Peri
DECEMBER 30, 2017

Dr. Mukherjee said these six guns would be further offered to the Army for balance user exploitations likely by February-March 2018, after carrying out internal firings. “It is expected that BPC [bulk production clearance] will be accorded immediately after completion of the user exploitations,”


http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 334878.ece

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Gyan » 31 Dec 2017 11:55

ATAGS and Dhanush "actual" orders will continue to be delayed for one test or another. M777 was cleared in less than one day after barrel explosions but Arjun saga for indigenous Howitzers goes on.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 31 Dec 2017 13:49

The report is not bad.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ArjunPandit » 01 Jan 2018 05:00

I was searching for at the following
1. If the 155 mm/45 caliber shells can be used across different types of guns
2. Given that in a 2-3years we will be receiving ~200 guns per year the requirements for training, actual use (on pukis :D :P ) and for WWR reserves will increase significantly, is there a plan to increase the OFB production? or will we be waking up later on and importing from Israel etc when the time comes?

1. I didnt get concrete info, but it seems shells are interchangable
2. There is no plan or such requirements given from forces too.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 01 Jan 2018 06:53

All shells are interchangable over different guns : Bofors 39 cal, upgraded 130 mm, M777 39 caliber, Dhanush 45 cal, ATAGs 52 cal, and Korean 52 cal.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vivek K » 01 Jan 2018 07:06

Mod note - Deleted. Unacceptable language. Please chose words with care and don't be so trigger happy while posting.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 01 Jan 2018 08:57

[quote="ArjunPandit"Given that in a 2-3years we will be receiving ~200 guns per year the requirements for training, actual use (on pukis :D :P ) and for WWR reserves will increase significantly, is there a plan to increase the OFB production? or will we be waking up later on and importing from Israel etc when the time comes?[/quote]

We currently have enough capacity allowing OFB to export to Middle East, so short to medium term, we will be fine.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya G » 01 Jan 2018 09:25

What about the OFB program to upgrade M46 to 155mm?

ArjunPandit wrote:As the year ends, wanted to summarize where we are on artillery issue, Things have not been upto 'brf' expectations even with this govt, but they are moving and looking way better than Donotony.

Here's my summary from googleshawsara swami


1. Dhanush: 3 delivered in 2016 (under trials). Plan was to induct 18 Guns in 2017, 36 Guns in 2018 and 60 Guns in 2019; completing the order for 114. because of the issues in tests, barrel redesign is considered (not sure if that impacts the deliveries). Ramana sir had detailed posts on the trial failure, which completely went over my head.

2. ATAGS: Summer trials and world record created. Winter trials to happen in Dec in sikkim. LSP of 40 cleared by NS. LSP Deliveries to start by 2019 end

3. K9 vajra: Provided the deal got signed in april'17 as chindu speculated, deliveries start in 18 months end by 42 months -> (Dec18-Dec 20) 100 guns. Poland signed a deal of 120 guns at less than half the price (http://www.armyrecognition.com/december ... oland.html): IDRW analysts are you reading this?

4. M777: Deliveries started; 145 guns, 2 guns received earlier this year, 1 damaged during testing. Three M777 guns will come to India in September 2018 and used for training. Thereafter, five guns will be inducted every month from March 2019 to June 2021.

5. Pinaka (Last but not the least): This one looks most promising, 2 pinaka regiments inducted, 4 ordered (2 in 2015, 2 in 2016 March), 6 ordered ( Nov 2016)not sure where does it lie in acquisition chain. Each regiment consists of three batteries of six Pinakas each, plus reserves. Assuming 20 in each regiment: we have 40 inducted, 80 +120 batteries ordered

so in a nutshell, we will receive at least 100+ guns starting from 2019 each year for may be next 3-5 years. If ATAGS orders materialize this number will go significantly up as those no.s are in ~2000s.

This is what i think primary roles of guns will be (obviously the gun works in both modes)
1. Dhanush: Defensive
2. ATAGS: Def/Offence
3. K9: Offense with IBGs
4. M777: Defence along with china border or in mountains
5. Pinaka: offence with IBGs for a breakthrough in their lines at critical nodes along with Grad, Smerch for hitting behind the lines and destroying C&C centers
Happy to be corrected in any of the information

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 01 Jan 2018 09:36

I would like to see Bharat Forge making shells. They will do an excellent job.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 01 Jan 2018 09:40

Aditya G wrote:What about the OFB program to upgrade M46 to 155mm?

ArjunPandit wrote:As the year ends, wanted to summarize where we are on artillery issue, Things have not been upto 'brf' expectations even with this govt, but they are moving and looking way better than Donotony.

Here's my summary from googleshawsara swami


1. Dhanush: 3 delivered in 2016 (under trials). Plan was to induct 18 Guns in 2017, 36 Guns in 2018 and 60 Guns in 2019; completing the order for 114. because of the issues in tests, barrel redesign is considered (not sure if that impacts the deliveries). Ramana sir had detailed posts on the trial failure, which completely went over my head.

2. ATAGS: Summer trials and world record created. Winter trials to happen in Dec in sikkim. LSP of 40 cleared by NS. LSP Deliveries to start by 2019 end

3. K9 vajra: Provided the deal got signed in april'17 as chindu speculated, deliveries start in 18 months end by 42 months -> (Dec18-Dec 20) 100 guns. Poland signed a deal of 120 guns at less than half the price (http://www.armyrecognition.com/december ... oland.html): IDRW analysts are you reading this?

4. M777: Deliveries started; 145 guns, 2 guns received earlier this year, 1 damaged during testing. Three M777 guns will come to India in September 2018 and used for training. Thereafter, five guns will be inducted every month from March 2019 to June 2021.

5. Pinaka (Last but not the least): This one looks most promising, 2 pinaka regiments inducted, 4 ordered (2 in 2015, 2 in 2016 March), 6 ordered ( Nov 2016)not sure where does it lie in acquisition chain. Each regiment consists of three batteries of six Pinakas each, plus reserves. Assuming 20 in each regiment: we have 40 inducted, 80 +120 batteries ordered

so in a nutshell, we will receive at least 100+ guns starting from 2019 each year for may be next 3-5 years. If ATAGS orders materialize this number will go significantly up as those no.s are in ~2000s.

This is what i think primary roles of guns will be (obviously the gun works in both modes)
1. Dhanush: Defensive
2. ATAGS: Def/Offence
3. K9: Offense with IBGs
4. M777: Defence along with china border or in mountains
5. Pinaka: offence with IBGs for a breakthrough in their lines at critical nodes along with Grad, Smerch for hitting behind the lines and destroying C&C centers
Happy to be corrected in any of the information


Arjun ji, suggest you amend your post re offence - defence roles using the inputs given after you posted. I would not even categorise by offense defence because all guns can be used in both roles.

Re terrains

K9 will indeed be used by strike corps but can also be used by 12 Corps. M777 will be used by MSC.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Gyan » 01 Jan 2018 09:47

Bulk production clearance has NOT been given to Dhanush. Hence the earliest possible time for 1st production howitzer to roll out is 2020. ATAGS is not even an order yet, only hope. More M777 will be ordered around 2020 and Dhanush & ATAGS will be termed as too heavy.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 01 Jan 2018 10:21

Gyan, if you are having a slow day and have a lot of time then use it productively somewhere else. Don't post silly comments here. I won't have you derailing this.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ArjunPandit » 01 Jan 2018 22:57

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Arjun ji, suggest you amend your post re offence - defence roles using the inputs given after you posted. I would not even categorise by offense defence because all guns can be used in both roles.

saar coant edit my post now..is it because it has been quoted

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 02 Jan 2018 08:39

ArjunPandit wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Arjun ji, suggest you amend your post re offence - defence roles using the inputs given after you posted. I would not even categorise by offense defence because all guns can be used in both roles.

saar coant edit my post now..is it because it has been quoted


No worries. I’ll make the points here just for everyone’s reference.

Addendum to Arjun Pandits post on various guns in various roles :

All guns and missiles can be used in offensive and defensive roles. Another way to think about it is advance and retreat and counter battery fire. So it just depends on the situation.

For example, one way to use massed arty is by concentrating them in a division and then bringing huge volume of fire to bear to actually create a space for advance. It is called maneuver by fire. Interested readers should definitely read Rohit Vats excellent blog on arty divs on this. You will notice that even 130 mm guns are part of that div. So Dhanush can certainly be used for that.

Other offensive roles can be in support of an infantry assault on mountains. Kargil was a great example where both rocket and tube arty was used.

Arty can also be used in support of battalion and brigade attacks in all terrain. But exactly the same gun can be used defensively from prepared positions to ambush the enemy. In that context M777 is earmarked for MSC but no reason why it cannot be used in a defensive role if the situation demands.

Counterbattery fire is another role where the objective is more to destroy enemy arty so that it cannot interfere with own assault. We had a lot of casualties in Kargil due to Pak arty so if we could have taken it out more effectively at longer ranges it would have saved a lot of lives. Both tube and Rocket arty is quite useful for this.

In defense arty can be used to blunt an enemy offensive.

So in the context of Arjunji’s post all these systems can be used in different roles but he is quite right that M777 is earmarked for MSC at the moment and K7 for support of armoured formations in the desert or semi desert areas. I’m not sure if they will be part of IBG (which is only on paper as of now ) or Arty Divs or the arty brigades of armoured divs.

Quiz - not arty but we used tanks in a very innovative way that had never been done before to take out Pak mortars/guns which were sighted in caves in one of our wars with Pak. This aupported a very important victory with big strategic consequences. Which action am I talking about.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby tsarkar » 02 Jan 2018 09:45

^^ Easy. You need mountains to build caves. The only tank action in the mountains was Zoji La (Chusul was a plateau).

And those two engagements made IA a firm believer of light/medium tanks :D

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ArjunPandit » 02 Jan 2018 09:49

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Quiz - not arty but we used tanks in a very innovative way that had never been done before to take out Pak mortars/guns which were sighted in caves in one of our wars with Pak. This aupported a very important victory with big strategic consequences. Which action am I talking about.

my maternal grandfather used to quote me about this battle. A vehment opposer of nehru/gandhi clan for non violence and their denigration of OF core hindu traditions and ancient wisdom over the so called modernity of that age.
I still remmeber him telling me about battle of jojila (when i was in 5th class i guess) quoting paki generals saying how could indians bring tanks in this area. It was unprecedented.
..TS sir beat me out to this

shaun
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby shaun » 02 Jan 2018 11:03

Casualties due na-pak artillery during kargil war . How our counter batteries faired , at least I did not find any account on that . Heard we we're handicapped by non funtional weapon locating radars from the Khan's.

Akshay Kapoor
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 02 Jan 2018 11:44

ArjunPandit wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Quiz - not arty but we used tanks in a very innovative way that had never been done before to take out Pak mortars/guns which were sighted in caves in one of our wars with Pak. This aupported a very important victory with big strategic consequences. Which action am I talking about.

my maternal grandfather used to quote me about this battle. A vehment opposer of nehru/gandhi clan for non violence and their denigration of OF core hindu traditions and ancient wisdom over the so called modernity of that age.
I still remmeber him telling me about battle of jojila (when i was in 5th class i guess) quoting paki generals saying how could indians bring tanks in this area. It was unprecedented.
..TS sir beat me out to this


Indeed T Sarkar sir is fast on the draw !! And my compliments to you and my pranaam to your Nanaji.

One correction to my post. They were MMGs not guns.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby manjgu » 02 Jan 2018 12:04

Damn... i learnt something new..Dhanush primary role is defence !! and ATAGS is offence/defence !! I mean what is a rifle then? :eek: what is Bofors ? if dhanush is defence then bofors is surely defence ?? i used to think if u charging the enemy then every weapon is offence and if u running away saving ur ass then its defence. and wasnt offence the best defence...confusing.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 02 Jan 2018 13:55

manjgu wrote:Damn... i learnt something new..Dhanush primary role is defence !! and ATAGS is offence/defence !! I mean what is a rifle then? :eek: what is Bofors ? if dhanush is defence then bofors is surely defence ?? i used to think if u charging the enemy then every weapon is offence and if u running away saving ur ass then its defence. and wasnt offence the best defence...confusing.


:rotfl: That’s an Important point - ‘when you are charging the enenemy .....’. So weapons are not inherently offensive or defensive their use is.

So What is an ambush in the context ?


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