Artillery: News & Discussion

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 04 May 2017 10:09

What is bimodular and when did Nalanda factory atarted produxtion ?

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 04 May 2017 11:02

jamwal wrote:What is bimodular and when did Nalanda factory atarted produxtion ?

Instead of solid bag charges, charges are made in self contained modules. After blacklisting of denel and IMI, the tech was developed by DRDO a couple of years back. The production started last year.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 May 2017 11:53

What is the difference between solid bag charges and self contained modules? And what are bimodular charges?

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 04 May 2017 12:28

Bi-modular charge system for 155 mm field Gun

BMCS is advantageous over conventional cloth bag charges because of simpler operation and reduced logistics during storage / transportation and war scenario. Two types of modular charges {lower zone (1 & 2) & higher zone (3, 4, 5 & 6)} replace more number of existing different bagged sub-charges thus avoiding disposal of left-over charges. The combustible case protects propellants & allied components from environment & unplanned stimuli. Higher rate of fire is achievable due to faster loading using auto-loading system.

BMCS developed by HEMRL is used as a propulsion system for various 155 mm artillery gun systems like Bofors and Soltam.

http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/labs1/HEMRL ... oducts.jsp

http://trishul-trident.blogspot.in/2013 ... d-gun.html

srai · Post by **srai** » 04 May 2017 13:43

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 May 2017 14:14

Thanks Ashishvikas and srai. So these cheese tins can be stacked up depending on how far they are looking to shoot..

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 04 May 2017 20:40

Bi modular charge system allows tailoring the charge and shell with the range required. It is an enabling factor for MRSI (Multiple Round Simultaneous Impact) feature in the guns. Basically fire multiple shells at different elevation from same gun so that time on target is the same. It is a force multiplier feature. Think 100 gun concept of IA and how this will enhance that further more

srai · Post by **srai** » 04 May 2017 20:57

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 May 2017 21:06

No tin cans. The combustible case also burns up.
Earlier bag charges used to have silk or some other 'no residue', after burning, bagging material.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 May 2017 21:08

ramana wrote:No tin cans. The combustible case also burns up.
Earlier bag charges used to have silk or some other 'no residue', after burning, bagging material.

Interestingly ramana - when I was a boy my cousin had given me (not me but I grabbed it for myself) an empty 30 mm shell - the casing was brass. Back then he had mentioned that brass was a strategic material because it was (then) the only thing that could be used for gun casings - and copper (for brass) was in short supply. I recall that brass vessels were donated to the national defence cause. Welcome change

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 May 2017 21:31

Does that "Green bag" charge have lettering in Kannada/Telugu?

srai wrote:

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 04 May 2017 21:51

Thanks Thakur_B

I recently "rediscovered" some old data dumps of mine and remembered seeing this picture taken in 2012 at OFB (?) stall at DefExpo 2012

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 May 2017 21:57

shiv wrote:
ramana wrote:No tin cans. The combustible case also burns up.
Earlier bag charges used to have silk or some other 'no residue', after burning, bagging material.
Interestingly ramana - when I was a boy my cousin had given me (not me but I grabbed it for myself) an empty 30 mm shell - the casing was brass. Back then he had mentioned that brass was a strategic material because it was (then) the only thing that could be used for gun casings - and copper (for brass) was in short supply. I recall that brass vessels were donated to the national defence cause. Welcome change

Yes brass or cartridge brass is a wonder material. It stretches under tension without breaking up. So was good material for shell solid cartridges.
However large caliber guns always used bagged charges. Bags were made of silk type material which burns cleanly without leaving residue. This BMC has many advantages as pointed by folks. Core advantage is calibrated amount of powder.

BTW can than Renuka Choudhry for scuttling the Denel contracts after money was paid. She is still around in Delhi as a vampire.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 May 2017 07:37

Interestingly they seem to be using brass shell casings in this image of C-130 with 105 mm cannon

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 May 2017 07:52

As rohitvats mentioned 105mm is considered light!

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 05 May 2017 20:00

Russian 152mm artillery and 127mm naval guns also use brass casings. One advantage is they remove some of the heat generated during firing is dissipated through the the casings instead of it going 100% to the barrel.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 05 May 2017 20:11

Thanks for the pic, looks like a trapezoidal set of shock absorbers on a base plate which is absorbing the recoil and the base plate to airframe mounting isn't strengthened in the recoil direction, likely there is minimal transfer of shock from baseplate to airframe

that design is too big for an An-32?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 May 2017 07:47

Any type of charges can deliver mrsi but bimodular is safer to cart around and easier to load mechanically to deliver faster salvos. The gun elevation also needs to change...thd first shells might be high angle loops with extra charge for long hangtime in flight
..the last shells might be optimal angle and charge for range to target and least flight time

I am sure they have cookbooks and automatic recipes for these..its too tedious to do manually likd solving a jee maths paper using printed logarithm tables

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 07 May 2017 01:35

Shiv - 105mm is a single piece round like western tank guns.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 May 2017 04:07

Rohitvats,
the 160mm Tampella mortars are still there?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 May 2017 23:08

http://www.vifindia.org/article/2017/ma ... antum-jump

Article by Major General Chakravorty (R) on artillery modernization.

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 11 May 2017 23:37

Regarding the MGS why can't TATA that had put the Denel G52 on their trucks mount the Dhanush or Bharat-52 instead?? Thats hsould be a low hanging fruit ones the Towed ATAGS is developed.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 12 May 2017 07:26

Iirc the tata have already shown the concept a few years ago.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 12 May 2017 11:15

Why is there a vast gap between the requirements for a Mounted Gun system (at least 814), compared to Tracked Gun System (at least 100)?

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 12 May 2017 11:27

the tracked gun system K9 ..will be for the strike corps primarily for the desert/punjab to provide organic fire support..this is part of the IA 2020 plan for preparing strike corps for short sharp action ( on short notice as well..cold start). the needs of mounted gun system is for all fronts including the very important chinese border/LAC and so the higher numbers.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 12 May 2017 11:34

What prevents K9/Vajra from being used on the Tibetan frontier? We already have tanks deployed there, K9 could easily complement those, while M777s and our 155mm arty guns hold the fort elsewhere.

Does our doctrine call for TGS only on the Pakistan frontier?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 May 2017 11:47

my understanding is these tracked vehicles can drive up there, which I guess the t72s did.

fir air mobility, the C130 can take the M777 upto ALGs like demchok and so on. and C17 will surely be able to take the K9 / ATAGS / Dhanush into Leh and Thoise but not into the ALGs.

m777 in c130
http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/d790cbca99994 ... g3yyh0.jpg

pzh2000 in c17
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... nsport.jpg

getting arty up there is 10% of the problem - but occupies huge mindshare. the other 90% is stockpiling enough ammo in caves and bunkers, protecting them for air and missile strikes and resupply from the depots .... these puppies all have high firing rates and can easily release say 300 rounds a day if needed before taking a breather @ 2-3 a minute.....but usually fire missions will be much shorter. fixed targets like kargil like might the all-day-pounding mode.

a artillery division operating at full tempo up there, with 3-4 regiments of 18 x 155, MLRS units, nirbhay GLCM, prithvi-2, Brahmos will need 100s of tons daily of fuel , spares and ammo. plus food, prepared scoot sites and medical tail. plus force protection and AD units with SAMs and ZSU. a single Brahmos unit might have 3 launchers, another 15 storage vehicles, C3I vehicles, weather radar, recovery vehicles fuel tankers, camp setup units ... to deliver 300 tons daily at some points in the front, means long lines of rented trucks and ASC vehicles stretched back 24x7 to depots both in theater and to bigger depots in the plains...snaking up the roads into the hills belching diesel smoke....the srinagar kargil road had that during the operation....

field armies fight with complete infra and do not expect to "leverage" anything like food cooked by villagers as syrian militias do...every nut and bolt has to be arranged for.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 12 May 2017 11:57

That Tata mounted was 105 mm methinks. A PSU had 105 mm gun on BMP and truck too

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 May 2017 13:56

Kashi wrote:What prevents K9/Vajra from being used on the Tibetan frontier? We already have tanks deployed there, K9 could easily complement those, while M777s and our 155mm arty guns hold the fort elsewhere.

Does our doctrine call for TGS only on the Pakistan frontier?

Nothing wrong with having them where necessary but there are some areas that they cannot reach - like the reverse side of slopes nearby like "next hill/mountain". Mortars are essential for this, and UAV's/recce as spotters

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 12 May 2017 16:49

i guess its question of costs..if towed arty can do the job then so be it..horses for courses...its not that towed arty will not be used in the plains..but tracked arty can move along with the armoured thrusts. However, the question i have is that IA armoured columns are not going to make huge inroads into pakistan ..maybe 60 to 70 km at max ..isnt towed arty ranges enough to keep pace with IA thrusts??

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 12 May 2017 17:08

shiv wrote:Nothing wrong with having them where necessary but there are some areas that they cannot reach - like the reverse side of slopes nearby like "next hill/mountain". Mortars are essential for this, and UAV's/recce as spotters

Ok. I think I understand. The limitation that you described that the TGS will not be able to reach the reverse side of the slopes, does it apply only to TGS, or to any artillery system? What I mean to ask is that is MGS expected to perform better in this scenario?

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 12 May 2017 17:58

Kashi wrote:
shiv wrote:Nothing wrong with having them where necessary but there are some areas that they cannot reach - like the reverse side of slopes nearby like "next hill/mountain". Mortars are essential for this, and UAV's/recce as spotters
Ok. I think I understand. The limitation that you described that the TGS will not be able to reach the reverse side of the slopes, does it apply only to TGS, or to any artillery system? What I mean to ask is that is MGS expected to perform better in this scenario?

Zimple. Whichever system that cannot fire at high angles (e.g. 70-80deg) will not be able to hit targets on reverse slope of mountains, not at least with pure ballistic trajectory. That is mortars' territory. Quick googling tells me even Howitzers are limited to ~70deg elevation.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 12 May 2017 17:59

Thanks very much JayS Ji

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 12 May 2017 20:08

Singha wrote:getting arty up there is 10% of the problem - but occupies huge mindshare. the other 90% is stockpiling enough ammo in caves and bunkers, protecting them for air and missile strikes and resupply from the depots .... these puppies all have high firing rates and can easily release say 300 rounds a day if needed before taking a breather @ 2-3 a minute.....but usually fire missions will be much shorter. fixed targets like kargil like might the all-day-pounding mode.

a artillery division operating at full tempo up there, with 3-4 regiments of 18 x 155, MLRS units, nirbhay GLCM, prithvi-2, Brahmos will need 100s of tons daily of fuel , spares and ammo. plus food, prepared scoot sites and medical tail. plus force protection and AD units with SAMs and ZSU. a single Brahmos unit might have 3 launchers, another 15 storage vehicles, C3I vehicles, weather radar, recovery vehicles fuel tankers, camp setup units ... to deliver 300 tons daily at some points in the front, means long lines of rented trucks and ASC vehicles stretched back 24x7 to depots both in theater and to bigger depots in the plains...snaking up the roads into the hills belching diesel smoke....the srinagar kargil road had that during the operation....

field armies fight with complete infra and do not expect to "leverage" anything like food cooked by villagers as syrian militias do...every nut and bolt has to be arranged for.

Thank you for pointing at something most ignore. Logistics. Field armies need hundreds of tonnes of fuel & supplies on a daily basis just to survive.

One of the reasons armies need months of build-up to shore up supplies even in a defensive role. Why every artillery battery has a battery captain (BK) whose primary job is to somehow maintain a handle on the resupply during operations.

As an aside, during WW2 the resupply rate for the UK & US divisions in the advance was in excess of 300 tonnes per day.

Self-Propelled artillery is a whole another beast. Here is a quote from a Marine Corps Officer.

Since World War II, newer artillery guns have increased rates of fire and use larger calibers of ammunition. In the US Army, each 155mm gun is expected to fire an average of 205 rounds a day. This means that each heavy "armoured" division with (54) 155mm SP guns needs 11,070 rounds a day, or 554 tons of 155mm ammo a day, which requires 111 5-ton truck deliveries each day.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 12 May 2017 23:43

L & T contract has been announced few hours ago. Seems it's finally signed.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 13 May 2017 01:32

Finally!

L&T bags its biggest defence order worth Rs 4,500 crore to supply self-propelled guns to Indian Army

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 13 May 2017 02:11

L&T also has a key role in Arudhra, Ashwini, Akash, Pinaka programs.

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 13 May 2017 02:15

And SSN, SSBN and hopefully future destroyers and frigates.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 13 May 2017 02:37

Bheeshma wrote:And SSN, SSBN and hopefully future destroyers and frigates.

No.

Under the new 'strategic partner (SP)' policy about to be unveiled, one company will be allowed to be the SP in only one area. Therefore, although L&T can fit into both categories, I think they will only get the SP status in submarines. Destroyers and Frigates will go to someone else.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 13 May 2017 03:55

^^ seems to be typical babu-giri to make things easy for themselves and protect dpsus like OFB and the shipyards from competition. if a company has capability it should be allowed in every space.