Artillery: News & Discussion

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manjgu
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by manjgu »

tsarkar...i think its Kalyani as per someone in know in bharat forge. OT but in an interview Baba K said they can churn out 1 gun per day IIRC.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by shiv »

manjgu wrote:tsarkar...i think its Kalyani as per someone in know in bharat forge. OT but in an interview Baba K said they can churn out 1 gun per day IIRC.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Vips »

Compare that to the time OFB is going to take to assemble the 114 improved/upgraded Bofors Guns. 3 Years. :x
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by tsarkar »

There are certain Indians like A M Naik & Baba Kalyani who deserve the Bharat Ratna for doing complex engineering in a way that also makes sound business sense and economics. They're the Walchand Hirachand of our times. Bharat Forge's & L&T's civil work acumen makes its military spinoffs seem effortless.

And makes Over Time demanding PSU workers look plain silly. Especially their contention that There Is No Alternative to Over Time.
ramana
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

I knew A.M Naik when he was L&T Powai general manager.

Very can do person.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Gyan »

The pious intention of ordering 414 Dhanush has been in news for 2 years. Similarly there is at least 2 years of paperwork to be dealt with before actual order & payment of advance for 50 ATAGS
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Thakur_B »

Vips wrote:Compare that to the time OFB is going to take to assemble the 114 improved/upgraded Bofors Guns. 3 Years. :x
manjgu wrote:tsarkar...i think its Kalyani as per someone in know in bharat forge. OT but in an interview Baba K said they can churn out 1 gun per day IIRC.
Actually, as far as I can remember, OFB autofrettages have the capacity to pump out one Dhanush barrel every hour, this was tweeted by saurav jha long back.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by la.khan »

http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busine ... 55411.html
On the defence business, Kalyani said the order pipeline is healthy and they are beginning to get export orders as well. Bharat Forge recently test-fired two artillery guns in Pokhran and will be going for winter-trial to Sikkim. He expects defence orders to come through in the next 24 months.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

^^^

This is good for the IA wants a very large number of these 155 mm 52 caliber artillery guns.

I only hope there is a task force setup to study the shell burst in barrel issue with the ERFB shells.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Have the M 777 and Dhanush trials resumed?
The Frontline article implied the UET trials would resume in December November.
Senior OFB officials are confident that Dhanush will clear user trials. They said many of the problems reported in the user exploitation phase would be surmounted by “a fine-tuning of the gun’s subsystems”. This, they hope, will be achieved during the next phase of the user exploitation trials scheduled for November. This will be followed by a final round of firing trials in 2018, by which time it is hoped Dhanush will meet the Army’s standards for an indigenous 155 mm artillery gun that can replace the Bofors gun. Military experts suggest that a Dhanush Integration Centre,(DIC) staffed with personnel drawn from the OFB, the Army, the DGQA and the DRDO, could be set up with the best technical and manufacturing expertise. Expertise from BAE Systems, which is selling India the M777, could also be utilised.
And what is the progress in setting up the DIC?
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Philip »

Ramana, your analysis is like a Poirot summing up of a murder! It does appear from your analysis that the shell is the problem not the barrel.Therefore the IA should give the green light for the guns, first batches and save time while the ammo problem is sorted out.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Thanks.

I still think its one type of shell is the issue: ERFB with max charge.

Shell is made for low fracture resistant steel to ensure fragmentation and has 50% more HE.
Also its profile is more aerodynamic i.e. slender to attain the long range.

Its more like old time grape shot at long range.

The long caliber guns have more chances of muzzle strike due to barrel length.

I would suggest that these long caliber guns should use shells made with low carbon high ductility steel that has same aerodynamic profile as the ERFB.
They will be safer and more effective with a PGK fuze.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Philip »

What reasonable timeframe would be required as repeated tests will further delay approval ,etc.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

No. Just go ahead with the current M107 shells and let a task forced start making the new shells.
The ERFB can be used up in 39 caliber barrels.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

logically the ER shells would be most useful in the shorter barrels 39cal. the 45cal and 52cal with non ER ammo have sufficient range.

imo the effect of the massive ranges is best felt in the mountains where it permits wider radius of fire from limited sites and roads but then M777 and 39cal is what goes into such terrains, not the heavier longer barrels.

the pursuit of perfection should not be allowed to delay a phased rollout of features onto the product. no real product ever shipped without serious existing flaws, be it non-lethal ones like apple antennagate or the A320 FCS problems.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by tsarkar »

Thakur_B wrote:
Vips wrote:Compare that to the time OFB is going to take to assemble the 114 improved/upgraded Bofors Guns. 3 Years. :x
manjgu wrote:tsarkar...i think its Kalyani as per someone in know in bharat forge. OT but in an interview Baba K said they can churn out 1 gun per day IIRC.
Actually, as far as I can remember, OFB autofrettages have the capacity to pump out one Dhanush barrel every hour, this was tweeted by saurav jha long back.
Its not about OFB autofrettages, its about employees running OFB autofrettages who expect overtime. Imagine their motivation in pumping out one Dhanush barrel every hour.

Most OFB employees, like the ones at Amethi, are recruited for employment generation of political workers. Naval Dockyard, Bombay is the biggest central government employer in Bombay. Recruitment of its workers was earlier "influenced" by INTUC and now by BMS. Meritocracy and efficient indigenous defence industry is the last thing on anyone's mind.
ramana
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Singha wrote:logically the ER shells would be most useful in the shorter barrels 39cal. the 45cal and 52cal with non ER ammo have sufficient range.

imo the effect of the massive ranges is best felt in the mountains where it permits wider radius of fire from limited sites and roads but then M777 and 39cal is what goes into such terrains, not the heavier longer barrels.

the pursuit of perfection should not be allowed to delay a phased rollout of features onto the product. no real product ever shipped without serious existing flaws, be it non-lethal ones like apple antenna gate or the A320 FCS problems.

The ER i.e. Extended Range comes from the small rocket motor at the base of the shell. It also comes from the reduced drag of that ER shell geometry which gives it more range.

However the biggest contribution to range is the longer barrel that allows the charge pressure pulse to developed. Gerald Bull showed theoretically that best barrel length is 45 calibers.

I agree that ER shells in 39 caliber is best as the rocket motor aka base bleed gives the extra range.

However ER shell is a fragments effect shell, using low fracture toughness steel(alloy composition is more like a cast iron shell) unlike the low carbon steel (alloy has high fracture toughness i.e high elongation. It stretches and doesn't break up) shells of M 107 genre. And ER/BB has 50 % more HE (12kg vs 8 kg) than M 107 shell.

in other words its more fragile to survive side slap which is more probable in a 45 and 52 caliber system.

But thanks to mfg tolerances at OFB even 39 caliber guns both Bofors (at least 40 per Shishir Arya of TOI) and M777 (recent User Trials at Pokhran) got this barrel burst problem.


Mountains need the high angle feature of howitzers. So a clever artillery officer will use the low charge MC and not develop the undesirable high ballot forces.

Why not import 10,000 PGK fuzes for mountain warfare batteries or kick start the ARDE.

This increases the effectiveness.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Gyan »

OFB Large barrel manufacturing capacity is around 200 barrels per ANNUM. This capacity has to cater to T-72/90 barrels also, which requirement is itself around 100-200 barrels per annum. The project for augmenting this capacity is under execution for last 10+ years. Last I heard OFB has finalised the tender for the chairs of the committee for planning.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

^^ not so fast. who gave you permission to withdraw the files from central store to write the chair tender?
the eCoS - empowered committee on Stationary will need to approve this via quarterly meeting and employees union approvals.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

US Army has M549 shell made from HF1 steel. It's filled with Composition B explosive. However it's restricted from being fired with high M203 level charge. In simple English this shell should not be fired with high charge.

In order to comply with safety requirements, the explosive is switched to TNT.

Ref: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M549
Now need to find out what type of explosive fill is used in OFB made ERFB shells. We know they are made from high fragmentation steel. So explosive fill could make a difference.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Composition B
Is 60% RDX and 39 % TNT with 1% wax.
Velocity of detonation is 8050 m/sec

Ref: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composition_B


TNT has VoD of 6900 m/sec
So it is less sensitive to shock than RDX
Ref:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TNT
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

:eek: Ok OFB makes ERFB shell which caused barrel burst.

http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/am ... add_41.htm

However filling is TNT. Yet causes burst.
:eek: :eek: :eek:
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ArjunPandit »

As the year ends, wanted to summarize where we are on artillery issue, Things have not been upto 'brf' expectations even with this govt, but they are moving and looking way better than Donotony.

Here's my summary from googleshawsara swami


1. Dhanush: 3 delivered in 2016 (under trials). Plan was to induct 18 Guns in 2017, 36 Guns in 2018 and 60 Guns in 2019; completing the order for 114. because of the issues in tests, barrel redesign is considered (not sure if that impacts the deliveries). Ramana sir had detailed posts on the trial failure, which completely went over my head.

2. ATAGS: Summer trials and world record created. Winter trials to happen in Dec in sikkim. LSP of 40 cleared by NS. LSP Deliveries to start by 2019 end

3. K9 vajra: Provided the deal got signed in april'17 as chindu speculated, deliveries start in 18 months end by 42 months -> (Dec18-Dec 20) 100 guns. Poland signed a deal of 120 guns at less than half the price (http://www.armyrecognition.com/december ... oland.html): IDRW analysts are you reading this?

4. M777: Deliveries started; 145 guns, 2 guns received earlier this year, 1 damaged during testing. Three M777 guns will come to India in September 2018 and used for training. Thereafter, five guns will be inducted every month from March 2019 to June 2021.

5. Pinaka (Last but not the least): This one looks most promising, 2 pinaka regiments inducted, 4 ordered (2 in 2015, 2 in 2016 March), 6 ordered ( Nov 2016)not sure where does it lie in acquisition chain. Each regiment consists of three batteries of six Pinakas each, plus reserves. Assuming 20 in each regiment: we have 40 inducted, 80 +120 batteries ordered

so in a nutshell, we will receive at least 100+ guns starting from 2019 each year for may be next 3-5 years. If ATAGS orders materialize this number will go significantly up as those no.s are in ~2000s.

This is what i think primary roles of guns will be (obviously the gun works in both modes)
1. Dhanush: Defensive
2. ATAGS: Def/Offence
3. K9: Offense with IBGs
4. M777: Defence along with china border or in mountains
5. Pinaka: offence with IBGs for a breakthrough in their lines at critical nodes along with Grad, Smerch for hitting behind the lines and destroying C&C centers
Happy to be corrected in any of the information
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Karan M »

Towed guns can follow formations. How are they only defensive?
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by nachiket »

^^Also, Dhanush and ATAGS are both towed. Only difference is the caliber. SO why is ATAGS categorized as Defensive/Offensive and DHanush only Defensive?
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ArjunPandit »

Karan M wrote:Towed guns can follow formations. How are they only defensive?
my bad completely slipped out of my mind that Dhanush is Towed. Thanks for the correction to karan m and nachiket.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Arjun Pandit, Good year end status summary.

On Dhanush, trials should have resumed in December 2017 per Frontline article. Also a Dhanush Integration Center is to be setup to ensure smooth induction.

Also I thought I made my explanation simple with out the second order diff equations in all the papers! :(
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ArjunPandit »

ramana wrote:Arjun Pandit, Good year end status summary.

On Dhanush, trials should have resumed in December 2017 per Frontline article. Also a Dhanush Integration Center is to be setup to ensure smooth induction.

Also I thought I made my explanation simple with out the second order diff equations in all the papers! :(
Thanks for your compliment sir, may be those DEs would have made me apply my mind. The thing i learnt from those numerous posts was "base bleed". Its more because of my lack of efforts rather than yours. I havent seen many modern artillery guns, so it is difficult to relate. The closest I have been to a real artillery gun was in DefExpo 2013. Tata/OFB People were hardly keen to entertain a non-tata non military person, esp towards the end of the day.

Rant mode on:
If a picture is 1000 words then a real one is worth 1000 images. We dont have many museums or museum culture too. 100s of migs/T55s have been retired or are going to be retired. I am sure some of them can be gifted to IITs/RECs.
This is one area I feel DRDO/Indian army can stimulate the interests/minds of students. The items that are being retired or junked can be given to engineering colleges along with introduction. I have seen students spending time on fine arts (my term:farts), can't things like these be used as teaching aids. We can't demilitarize entire generations, let them open to the leftist media, expose them to liberal propaganda of bollywood/aap/congress, let them booze/dope and listen to honey singh and expect them to be patriotic and willing to lay lives for our nation.
Rant mode off:
That is why i love APJAK more than any other person in our recent memory. In my eyes he's the swami vivekanand of our military research, who reignited the can do belief in the minds.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Still pursuing the OFB shell defects. From the CAG report on the Army Ammunition Management Report 2015

Page 32 on defects in 155mm shells ERFB/BB shells made at OF Chanda. Empty shell is made at OF Ambajhari

Chanda Makes ERFB/BB and Badmal makes ERFB/BT.

Same page has awful pictures of corrosion at the driving band and shell interface. Since the band is copper and shell is steel the corrosion is blue green indicating galvanic corrosion. (My conclusions)
In Jan 2010 thru Jan 2011, during proof test of 4 lots of shells (total 8000), met with accidents leading to breaking the muzzle and rejection of the lots leading to a loss of Rs. 8 Crores. Note 23 says a task force was setup in Jan 2012 to find root cause and ruled in Oct 2012, there was no deficiency in the gun but probable cause was poor/improper knurling at the driving band along with rusting which might lead to stripping of the driving band during motion of the projectile resulting in the accident.

We have no report if this was fixed.

In my view the region round the driving band before it is fitted should be phosphate coated to prevent galvanic corrosion by introducing a chemical barrier. If this coating is done improperly it leads to corrosion later.

Page 34 has similar corrosion at the driving band but for 105mm IFG shells. These are made at Badmal and in Annexure VIII, Page 59 we see there was muzzle strike for 105mm guns and two lots of total 8000 shells rejected.

So I don't know how that OFB Spokesman can say there are no defects in shells made by OFB. He should read the CAG reports or go take a walk in the factories mentioned.

I think the problem is at Badmal with improper processes for phosphate coating.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Akshay Kapoor »

Karan M wrote:Towed guns can follow formations. How are they only defensive?
Yes, Arjun Pandit the categorisation of roles is wrong. For example the M777 are part of the Mountain Strike Corps which is a 'offensive' formation. A large part of their role will be to pound enemy in preparation for attack. Or lets go to the LC. Before the so called cease fire if Pak arty would fire we would retaliate in double the volume. Is that offense (double the volume), defense (reactive) or just counter battery fire. The excellent articles by Rohit Vats on Arty divisions and maneouver by fire show how the art divs use arty in highly offensive mode. In fact they create mobility for other formations. The towed gun compenent of those are the 130 mm. So don't confuse mobility or calibre with offensive or defensive.

There is only one truly defensive arty gun and this is an anti aircraft gun. But even that can be used in a offensive role by using it against enemy bunkers and not aircraft. Dhanush and ATAGS will probably have broadly the same roles. Any weapon is offensive or defensive only by use. And use is defined by the situation. For example mortars can be used by infantry in attack or in defensive so can a LMG or even a rifle !

We will cover offensive and defensive arty tactics in the Tactics thread and I'm sure Ramanaji will have a lot to say on it.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

Army awaits howitzer mishap report, hopes artillery upgrade plan stays on track
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... yPQoM.html
The 155mm 39-calibre howitzers are being inducted to increase the Army’s capabilities in high altitudes, and will be deployed in the country’s northern and eastern sectors.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Aditya_V »

I was just think seeing the LCA thread, I know we have MLRS for longer range targets, but for line of sight operations, wouldn't those Air force 63mm be really useful to the Army, especially from High ground to target enemy for Low ground to the visible enemy post?

Do we have any of those Zuni type airforce rockets for Army use?
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ArjunPandit »

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Karan M wrote:Towed guns can follow formations. How are they only defensive?
We will cover offensive and defensive arty tactics in the Tactics thread and I'm sure Ramanaji will have a lot to say on it.
I learn and unlearn almost everyday here.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Aditya_V wrote:I was just think seeing the LCA thread, I know we have MLRS for longer range targets, but for line of sight operations, wouldn't those Air force 63mm be really useful to the Army, especially from High ground to target enemy for Low ground to the visible enemy post?

Do we have any of those Zuni type airforce rockets for Army use?
No. ZUNI is 5" rocket.

63 mm/ 70 mm rockets are high velocity 2.75" in metric.

The first aircraft rockets were British 60 lbs rockets for the Hawker Hurricane. These were slow speed and had wide dispersion. Those Vampires at Chamb had this clunkers.
The US and French came up with high velocity aircraft rockets (HVAR) which due to the high velocity had low dispersion.

The Orurgans had this version and yet the Vampires were sent.

Zuni is a US rocket and were 5" big diameter rockets used in Korean War.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ashishvikas »

Indigenous artillery gun ATAGS to undergo winter trials in Sikkim

Dec 21, 2017

A locally made gun is set to undergo crucial trials in January at a time when the army has sharpened its focus on its long-delayed artillery modernisation programme.

The indigenous 155mm 52-calibre Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS), jointly developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and the private sector, will kick off winter trials in the Sikkim sector, a senior army officer said.


http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... LyLXJ.html
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Aditya_V »

Hit Targets close to Doklam.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Could you please post the full text as it has lot of info and my phone is not helping.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

It freezes in IE but not in Chrome. So weird! Here is the full text.

Indigenous artillery gun ATAGS to undergo winter trials in Sikkim
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... LyLXJ.html

21 Dec 2017, Rahul Singh

The 155mm 52-calibre ATAGS set a record during trials in Rajasthan’s Pokhran in September, firing shells to a range of 48 km.

A locally made gun is set to undergo crucial trials in January at a time when the army has sharpened its focus on its long-delayed artillery modernisation program. The indigenous 155mm 52-calibre Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS), jointly developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and the private sector, will kick off winter trials in the Sikkim sector, a senior army officer said. The ATAGS set a record during trials in Rajasthan’s Pokhran in September, firing shells to a range of 48 km, against army’s requirement of 40 km. The defence ministry sanctioned the ATAGS project in September 2012 and the DRDO has partnered with Bharat Forge and Tata Power (Strategic Engineering Division) SED to develop two prototypes of the towed artillery guns. The two prototypes underwent their maiden structural stability trials in December 2016 at Proof & Experimental Establishment, a government test facility at Balasore in Odisha. A letter of intent has been given to the DRDO for 150 ATAGS, an army source said. The value of DRDO-developed/upgraded systems inducted into the armed forces during the last three years stands at Rs 1.1 lakh crore, the government told Lok Sabha on Wednesday. These systems do not include strategic weapons.

The army’s field artillery rationalisation plan (FARP), cleared in 1999, lays down the roadmap for inducting new 155mm weaponry, including tracked self-propelled guns, truck-mounted gun systems, towed artillery pieces and wheeled self-propelled guns. The Rs 50,000-crore FARP seeks to equip 169 artillery regiments with a mix of nearly 3,000 guns over the next decade. The army is looking to induct another indigenously developed 155mm 45-calibre towed artillery gun called Dhanush. But the programme has been delayed as the gun was involved in mishaps during trials. (Here, 155 mm denotes the diameter of the shell and calibre relates to barrel length.) The force is awaiting a report on an accident involving its new M777 ultra-light howitzer. The BAE Systems-manufactured gun was partly damaged when a 155mm artillery round misfired and exploded in its barrel during a drill at the Pokhran firing ranges in September. The M777 order is the first contract for artillery guns in almost 30 years after the Bofors scandal unfolded in the late 1980s. India signed the Rs 5,000-crore deal with the US in November 2016 for 145 howitzers.
Last edited by ramana on 22 Dec 2017 02:30, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added highlights for key points. ramana
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Winter trials are very crucial as the longer range is needed in the Himalayas.
Also cold weather has a tendency to cause fuze break off as noted in many artillery barrages in previous world wars.

I do hope they zero in on the root cause as the OFB shells are exploding in barrels across many different guns: 39 caliber guns Bofors and M777, Soltam and Dhanush 45 caliber guns. Definitely a shell issue and would be shame to blame the guns.



So far news reports suggest its the ERFB/BB shells that have this issue.

Did they have issues with M107 shells?
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Sometime back I had mentioned that ATK has develop a precision fuze for mortars. The importance of this fuze is the CEP of a 120 mm mortar shell is 135 meters. If the mortar is rifled that is induces spin the CEP is 75 m. And MGK has CEP of 10M with demonstrated accuracy of 4 m.
Now a 120 mm mortar shell has blast radius of 60 meters and a range of 6000 to 7000 meters. So suddenly the mortar becomes a very effective weapon.

To make this work the shell has to be spun. They do this by a modified new tail fin that is canted or angle inducing spin.

I don't know if IA mortars are rifiled or smooth bore.



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