Artillery: News & Discussion

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby John » 11 Mar 2018 23:31

Rakesh wrote:Rafale Aside, Big French Push On 2 Indian Weapon Contests Worth $8 Billion
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/03 ... llion.html

The other contest Parly refers to, also before the Indian Army, is a $2 billion quest for 1500 towed artillery guns. The towed gun system (TGS) contest is currently in crucial field trials by the Army. France fields the Nexter TRAJAN 155mm/52 cal artillery gun system developed in collaboration with India’s L&T, which will produce the gun in India should their partnership win the contest. While L&T will produce the mobility system, Nexter brings the actual gun, based on its in-service CAESAR system. The TRAJAN competes with an offering from Israel’s Elbit in partnership with India’s Kalyani Group. The program stipulates a local production run of at least 1,100 of those guns under Make in India protocols.


What is the need for Trajan? When there is already two 155mm guns in pipeline.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 12 Mar 2018 06:18

The Dhanush factory trials at Balasore are very interesting.
They fired 80% of the shells at max charge and did not incur muzzle strike as per TOI Shishir Arya.

What they did not say was the number of shells fired?


Above tests mean that the OFB shells are good.
And Dhanush barrels are also good.
Then where is the problem?

Large number of shells especially at max charge, will wear out the barrel and increase probability of balloting leading to muzzle strike.

So the affordable Make in India solution is to replace the barrels after a certain number of shells are fired.
This way OFB shells and barrels can be used instead of importing whole new guns and shells.

Mean time DRDO can launch a Mission mode project to nitro-chrome plate the barrels for increased wear resistance.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 12 Mar 2018 22:59

Not a bad solution. We do carry LMG spare barrels so its certainly feasible if the number of shells fired after which barrels need to be changed is reasonable. What is your estimate on number of shells fired after which barrel will need to be changed.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 12 Mar 2018 23:17

Based on the M777 shell muzzle strike happened at 1164 round, I would say not to exceed 1100 rounds with barrel replacement goal of 1000 rounds. This gives margin of 100 rounds to allow for pipeline delays etc. Barrel change should be at the depot level maintenance i.e. level 2 and not factory level as that would be level 3.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby VinodTK » 19 Mar 2018 17:51

Indigenous artillery gun passes high-altitude winter test in Sikkim
PUNE: The month-long winter trials of the indigenously-developed 155mm/52 calibre Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS) have achieved the desired results, an official from the Defence Research and Development Organisation has said.
The weapon system is a joint effort by the DRDO and the private sector.

The trials were conducted by a group of scientists from the city-based Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE) and army officers at an elevation of 11,000 feet in Sikkim. “Scientists and soldiers tested the gun in extremely cold conditions. It delivered positive firing results even in -20 degree Celsius,” the DRDO official said. The official said the gun’s mobility, a crucial factor in high-altitude warfare, was favourable too. “All mobility parameters were checked during the trials,” the official said. Last year, the gun’s desert trials were held from August 24 to September 7. Results from these trials were positive too.

The ATAGS has an allelectric drive, which is better than traditional hydraulic drives of other towed guns. The electric drives of the ATAGS allows better control while opening and closing of the breech mechanism and while ramming the next round into the firing chamber.

Sources added that the gun is expected to become a part of the Indian Army by the year 2020.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby JayS » 19 Mar 2018 18:45

ramana wrote:Based on the M777 shell muzzle strike happened at 1164 round, I would say not to exceed 1100 rounds with barrel replacement goal of 1000 rounds. This gives margin of 100 rounds to allow for pipeline delays etc. Barrel change should be at the depot level maintenance i.e. level 2 and not factory level as that would be level 3.


Single test point is too less from reliability matrix perspective. Paper linked by Brar a few posts above gives good description on confidence level and number of test data points available. What you suggest would be a good start point. And field operators can be asked to collect more data as the gun is used in operations for initial few months or even a couple of years (I am not sure of intensity of usage). Based on that the number can be refined further.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby JayS » 19 Mar 2018 18:46

VinodTK wrote:Indigenous artillery gun passes high-altitude winter test in Sikkim
PUNE: The month-long winter trials of the indigenously-developed 155mm/52 calibre Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS) have achieved the desired results, an official from the Defence Research and Development Organisation has said.
The weapon system is a joint effort by the DRDO and the private sector.

The trials were conducted by a group of scientists from the city-based Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE) and army officers at an elevation of 11,000 feet in Sikkim. “Scientists and soldiers tested the gun in extremely cold conditions. It delivered positive firing results even in -20 degree Celsius,” the DRDO official said. The official said the gun’s mobility, a crucial factor in high-altitude warfare, was favourable too. “All mobility parameters were checked during the trials,” the official said. Last year, the gun’s desert trials were held from August 24 to September 7. Results from these trials were positive too.

The ATAGS has an allelectric drive, which is better than traditional hydraulic drives of other towed guns. The electric drives of the ATAGS allows better control while opening and closing of the breech mechanism and while ramming the next round into the firing chamber.

Sources added that the gun is expected to become a part of the Indian Army by the year 2020.


Is it time yet to deploy lungi for dance..? Or more iterations pending..?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby SaiK » 19 Mar 2018 19:20

Dhoti Shibber times to begin. Vision 2025, Tibet liberation

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby RKumar » 19 Mar 2018 19:26

1. Don't want to be pessimistic but let's also hear army version.
2. Proof of the pudding is in its eating - let's see what numbers are ordered.

Only if 500 Arjuns could also be ordered at the same time :mrgreen:

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 19 Mar 2018 20:47

JayS wrote:


Is it time yet to deploy lungi for dance..? Or more iterations pending..?


Regardless of the order status, time for lungi dance. This is a massive achievement for domestic industry.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 19 Mar 2018 20:49

RKumar wrote:1. Don't want to be pessimistic but let's also hear army version.
2. Proof of the pudding is in its eating - let's see what numbers are ordered.

Only if 500 Arjuns could also be ordered at the same time :mrgreen:



The numbers ordered will be sufficient to meet the towed arty component of the field artillery rationalisation program.

Don't worry about it. It will happen.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby SaiK » 19 Mar 2018 21:04

What! I'm campaiging for 1000 Arjun Mk2++ in tranches with a sustained acceptance of 100 tanks per year for 10 years contract with Avadi. Upgrades signed in only after user uses in war exercises for 2 years minimum.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby A Deshmukh » 19 Mar 2018 22:31

:) Good News on ATAGS...

Any updates on Dhanush?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ShauryaT » 19 Mar 2018 22:40

How are they doing with weight control and sustained rate of fire for ATAGS. Anyone has this information? Original spec was to have it under 12 tons.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 20 Mar 2018 00:07

It is not possible to have this capability at under 12 tons. They might be able to reduce 2-3 ton, but I doubt it can be brought to 12 ton. Unless they start using titanium similar to M777.

The 12 ton weight is from Bofors. As usual, the requirement must have been "need better than bofors, but equal/less than bofor's weight ".

If IA wants 12 ton for deploying in areas, where 18 ton cannot go, then it has Dhanush. So it will be a balance of ATAGS, Dhanush & M777.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Khalsa » 20 Mar 2018 01:52

News about the success of ATAGS and Dhanush has been understated.
Congrats to them and us.

Well done folks

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 20 Mar 2018 01:59

nam wrote:It is not possible to have this capability at under 12 tons. They might be able to reduce 2-3 ton, but I doubt it can be brought to 12 ton. Unless they start using titanium similar to M777.

The 12 ton weight is from Bofors. As usual, the requirement must have been "need better than bofors, but equal/less than bofor's weight ".

If IA wants 12 ton for deploying in areas, where 18 ton cannot go, then it has Dhanush. So it will be a balance of ATAGS, Dhanush & M777.



I hope its not used as 'less than minimum rage for LAHAT' to nix the ATAGS.


How will you get a 155mm 52 caliber gun weigh less than 12 tons?

Using titanium jacks up the cost tremendously. Its expensive and very difficult to machine.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Katare » 20 Mar 2018 04:19

A larger caliber gun would always be bigger and heavier to withstand larger stress loads coming from higher pressures and longer residence times. It was IA that has decided to standardize all its artillery to 155mm and 52 caliber for bulk of it’s gun.

It won’t be a big deal to downgrade the caliber and make a lighter boforse size gun weighing 12 tons. Ohh wait it already exists - it’s called Dhanush!!

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 20 Mar 2018 10:59

are we going to have a truck mounted howitzer contest for some 1500 gori chamri new things or run with towed guns now coming online (atags,dhanush,m777) plus the costly k9 vajra for the armour corps?

it seems to me we could integrate the dhanush onto a large truck ourselves using domestic capability and build out on that? the first iteration might not so soothing and 'polished' as the archer but it will get there, and unleash a lot of hell downrange

there is no need for more corruption, more gori chamri, more dalals with a global tender for truck howitzers.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Ashutosh Malik » 20 Mar 2018 11:46

Thanks Mr. Kapoor.

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Ashutosh Malik wrote:Dear Mr. Akshay Kapoor,

I think you deleted my comment, made earlier, in response to the post you made about not tolerating anyone calling army officers jokers.

At least I am not able to find my comment after having searched for it a few times already, yesterday and today. Or it seems to have mysteriously disappeared. And I did not take a screenshot too.

-------

Best regards,
Ashutosh Malik



Thank you for your sensible and reasoned post. I did in fact delete your comment and to be fair I also deleted my own comment which your comment was a reaction to because I did not want any derailing of the discussion. Your comment was OT. It was also in response to a discussion between two moderators - myself and Ramana and its best kept that way without interference. But you are quite right - I should have informed you it was deleted especially as it was not an abusive post by any standards. The problem Mr Malik is that everyone is not reasonable like yourself. Its almost a lynch mob here sometimes and that has to be stopped by decisive action.

People seem to protect their rights to comment and abuse much more than exercise their obligation to post with content. A conscious decision has been taken on the forum to improve the quality to discussion and that will be maintained. Please take any complaints to the feedback thread. Thanks.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 20 Mar 2018 12:01

Singha wrote:are we going to have a truck mounted howitzer contest for some 1500 gori chamri new things or run with towed guns now coming online (atags,dhanush,m777) plus the costly k9 vajra for the armour corps?

it seems to me we could integrate the dhanush onto a large truck ourselves using domestic capability and build out on that? the first iteration might not so soothing and 'polished' as the archer but it will get there, and unleash a lot of hell downrange

there is no need for more corruption, more gori chamri, more dalals with a global tender for truck howitzers.


Inshallah, the domestic program will meet all arty requirements and we will be self sufficient in all respects.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 20 Mar 2018 14:15

is Denel still on the s**tlist? tata power had mounted a denel gun way back in 2012 and done some testing to bid for the trucked gun project...
http://defenceforumindia.com/tatas-155- ... ystem-1072
pictures in the link.

Kalyani has tied up with mandur systems to offer the 105mm ... instead of just feeding OFB, we should ensure both models of ATAGS are offered into production or having the losing bidder among tata/bharat forge make an equal number of the winning gun - we need multiple OEMs and multiple lines.

likewise the trucked gun should be given out in portions to all domestic bidders to manufacture.

just OFB getting to eat the malai defeats the whole purpose of inviting pvt industry into defence to build scale. their planned production rate of dhanush gun against confirmed orders is very weak imo

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Prasad » 20 Mar 2018 14:55

Yep. Nobody is off that list.
We could get these private firms to get started on an unmanned/optionally manned SP howitzer for the future based on whatever tech they can repurpose for this. Light/medium/heavy versions too for hills, plains, Tibet :)

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 20 Mar 2018 15:39

DDG51 ships seem built by multiple shipyards (bath iron works and ingalls) if one keeps count...these huge hulls are churned out like bread.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 20 Mar 2018 17:23

Since Tata has integrated the Denel gun on their truck, I am expecting them to bring out a truck mounted ATAGS. Their experience with the Denel gun helped them in ATAGS.

It would be a low hanging fruit. Maybe BF gets the towed contract and Tata gets truck mounted.

Can't wait to see our artillery upgraded to medium. A 2000+ 155 MM & required shell production would put fear of god even in the heart of the bravest abdul.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 20 Mar 2018 17:26

The biggest gain from ATAGS has been how the technology ecosystem has been built. A top notch artillery tech is now been shared with two Indian companies, who can now go to town in the international market.

This is the format that needs to be followed.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby A Deshmukh » 20 Mar 2018 17:33

once we have ATAGS / Dhanush in numbers, just sit within our borders and raze all villages and towns within 50 kms of the border/LOC.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 20 Mar 2018 17:56

during the oder-vistula front thing, with two giant soviet shock armies poised to deal the final blow to the reich, the zhukov and konev army groups wheeled in unheard of amounts of artillery to POUND fortified areas like the zeelow heights.
it seems divisional commanders were worried that even 400 guns per 1km of frontage for the 10km wide belts selected for the breakthroughs was not enough :twisted:

#like #inflictpain

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vips » 20 Mar 2018 20:01

OFB upgrades 130-mm field guns, eyes order from Army.

The Ordnance Factories Board (OFB) today said it had successfully upgraded the 130-mm field guns to 155 mm capability at its Nalanda facility in Bihar and was expecting an order for 300 such guns from the Army.

The Kolkata-headquartered State defence manufacturer had successfully completed the user evaluation of 130/155 mm "upgunning" and was likely to receive orders for the upgradation of 300 artillery guns from the Army, OFB Chairman S K Chourasia said.

"The cost of a new 155-mm artillery gun comes to around Rs 15 crore, while the upgradation has been done for just Rs one crore for each, thus saving the exchequer a lot of money," he told newspersons here.

The upgradation, involving the changing of the barrel, would mean an increase in the range of the field gun from around 27 kms to 36 kms, an OFB official explained.

Chourasia said the OFB-offered, 100-per cent indigenous solution had emerged successful against private competitors fielding imported equipment from leading global manufacturers in this field.

"We are likely to receive orders for the upgunning of 300 such 130-mm guns to 155-mm ones," the OFB chairman said. (If the upgrade can be done at just one crore a piece then why upgrade only 300? we have 800+ 130 MM guns, why not upgun them all to rationalize and save on logistics?)

OFB member (weapons, vehicles and equipment) Hari Mohan said the indigenous technological solution for upgunning the 130-mm field guns was achieved at the organisation's Nalanda facility and had emerged as the only acceptable offer to the armed forces' requirements.

Chourasia said research and development was being cultivated at the OFB's 13 ordnance development centres.

"With the assistance of premier academic institutions like the IITs at Mumbai, Kanpur and Kharagpur, the ordnance factories are not only upgrading the existing products, but also developing new weapon platforms," he added.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 20 Mar 2018 23:20

well the cumbersome size and low elevation of the 130mm field guns restricts their operational envelope. they are not howitzers. cannot hide and fire from reverse slopes.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Bart S » 20 Mar 2018 23:33

Use them to blast Pakis on the border during 'peacetime'.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 21 Mar 2018 00:57

Vips wrote:OFB upgrades 130-mm field guns, eyes order from Army.

The Ordnance Factories Board (OFB) today said it had successfully upgraded the 130-mm field guns to 155 mm capability at its Nalanda facility in Bihar and was expecting an order for 300 such guns from the Army.

The Kolkata-headquartered State defence manufacturer had successfully completed the user evaluation of 130/155 mm "upgunning" and was likely to receive orders for the upgradation of 300 artillery guns from the Army, OFB Chairman S K Chourasia said.

"The cost of a new 155-mm artillery gun comes to around Rs 15 crore, while the upgradation has been done for just Rs one crore for each, thus saving the exchequer a lot of money," he told newspersons here.

The upgradation, involving the changing of the barrel, would mean an increase in the range of the field gun from around 27 kms to 36 kms, an OFB official explained.

Chourasia said the OFB-offered, 100-per cent indigenous solution had emerged successful against private competitors fielding imported equipment from leading global manufacturers in this field.

"We are likely to receive orders for the upgunning of 300 such 130-mm guns to 155-mm ones," the OFB chairman said. (If the upgrade can be done at just one crore a piece then why upgrade only 300? we have 800+ 130 MM guns, why not upgun them all to rationalize and save on logistics?)

OFB member (weapons, vehicles and equipment) Hari Mohan said the indigenous technological solution for upgunning the 130-mm field guns was achieved at the organisation's Nalanda facility and had emerged as the only acceptable offer to the armed forces' requirements.

Chourasia said research and development was being cultivated at the OFB's 13 ordnance development centres.

"With the assistance of premier academic institutions like the IITs at Mumbai, Kanpur and Kharagpur, the ordnance factories are not only upgrading the existing products, but also developing new weapon platforms," he added.


I have highlighted what I felt are the important notes.

This is huge as earlier upgraded 130mm had muzzle strike too during trials.

And this is a new facility at Nalanda that is doing the work in addition to GCF.

Also note the new emphasis on R&D and tie up with 3 IITs.

I soon expect the PGK fuze for trials.

Its possible this 300 is just early tranche.

one advantage I can see is this modified gun in direct fire mode will take out many battle field targets.

it maybe a good idea to have a purchasing mission to buy up any extra 130mm guns in the market world wide.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Picklu » 21 Mar 2018 03:29

Time to build a turret around dhanush and put it on arjun hull.

Order 300 and start license manufacture of the engine.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 22 Mar 2018 15:51

Singha wrote:well the cumbersome size and low elevation of the 130mm field guns restricts their operational envelope. they are not howitzers. cannot hide and fire from reverse slopes.


These Guns may not useful on LOC but free 155mm howitzers to be used on the LOC as they can be used in the Shakargarh Bulge and other plains areas.
One of the calculations of the Pakis when planning Kargil. They are very useful in Borders of Gujarat, Punjab and plains areas of Jammu.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vips » 25 Mar 2018 04:41

Vips wrote:Check from 0:50:00 onwards on the link below. Details about the 130 mm gums being upgraded to 155 mm system by OFB Nalanda factory. It has been named Sharang. Has max range of 40 Km's if fired from an angle of 45 Degrees. The Army has given order for 300 Guns (to be delivered in 4 years with first year delivery at 3 guns).Weight 8245kg. Barrel life 650 rounds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ47qnrY6Wc

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Bishwa » 25 Mar 2018 05:22

Singha wrote:well the cumbersome size and low elevation of the 130mm field guns restricts their operational envelope. they are not howitzers. cannot hide and fire from reverse slopes.


The 130mm field guns were used from the base camp in Siachen. During the 1987 Bilafondla conflict, the 130mm guns were used extensively. One of them burst due to the extensive firing and the gun crew was lost. Later the Bofors was inducted into the base camp.

This photo shows how the elevation problem is handled :-)

Image

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vips » 25 Mar 2018 17:11

Akhand Dandavat Pranaam to the brave Indian soldiers. Not complaining and making do with lower caliber guns with huge limitations compared to 155 mm guns aided with AN/TPQ WLR's situated on favorable heights from the Pakistani side and still emerging victorious.

Imagine the huge manual effort that would go in placing a 8 ton gun on such uneven incline angles.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Haridas » 26 Mar 2018 00:21

^^^ iirc the guns were disassembled lifted up by helicopter and then reassembled.

The guns often are lost after few years when mounted atop snow pack due to unsustainable peaking effect (uneven snow melt).

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vips » 26 Mar 2018 05:23

My post is for when the soldiers have to do the jugaad of moving the guns to comparative higher grounds for achieving incline to overcome the 45 degree max elevation limit.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 02 Apr 2018 22:50

The numerous muzzle strikes and one barrel burst, have intrigued me to study the literature on the phenomenon and try to understand what is going on. It took me about 6 months to get there.

The final summary post is linked below on Page 101:

viewtopic.php?p=2254872#p2254872

Hope this muzzle strike phenomenon is a thing of the past and get on to making more guns and bash the Pakis.


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