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Artillery Discussion Thread

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Bishwa
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Bishwa » 06 Sep 2017 08:37

As per Major Praveen Sahwney in the article "Himalayan Conflict Forges Artillery Doctrine"

"Once stabilized (in Siachen) , the FH-77B has shown itself to be both accurate and consistent, achieving a range of 42km from altitudes of 12,000ft using High Explosive Extended Range (HEER) base bleed ammunition."

High altitude seems to have assisted the bofors range by 1.75

So if ATAGS is giving 47 KM in the plains with HEER, its range in high altitude will be a phenomenal 82KM.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Prem » 06 Sep 2017 09:01

Bishwa wrote:As per Major Praveen Sahwney in the article "Himalayan Conflict Forges Artillery Doctrine"
High altitude seems to have assisted the bofors range by 1.75
So if ATAGS is giving 47 KM in the plains with HEER, its range in high altitude will be a phenomenal 82KM.


Can it slaughter Skardu snakes from Kargil heights with this range ?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 06 Sep 2017 09:37

Bishwa wrote:As per Major Praveen Sahwney in the article "Himalayan Conflict Forges Artillery Doctrine"

"Once stabilized (in Siachen) , the FH-77B has shown itself to be both accurate and consistent, achieving a range of 42km from altitudes of 12,000ft using High Explosive Extended Range (HEER) base bleed ammunition."

High altitude seems to have assisted the bofors range by 1.75

So if ATAGS is giving 47 KM in the plains with HEER, its range in high altitude will be a phenomenal 82KM.



Bishwa ji, 47 km range from ATAGS is already done using base bleed round. Expect increase in range by a third at high altitude.

PS: Btw, wasn't ATAGS officially given a name?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 06 Sep 2017 10:44

I have been looking at the available picture of both the models of atags gun for a recoil base plate that most 155 mm guns have. But have not been able to see a clear picture of a gun in firing position form the front.

The reason why I am asking is that the bharat 52 by kalyani has been demonstrated with the base plate. So should the kalyani stage that shares the carriage with bharat 52 not also have this recoil plate.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Manish_P » 06 Sep 2017 12:41

Prem wrote:
Bishwa wrote:As per Major Praveen Sahwney in the article "Himalayan Conflict Forges Artillery Doctrine"
High altitude seems to have assisted the bofors range by 1.75
So if ATAGS is giving 47 KM in the plains with HEER, its range in high altitude will be a phenomenal 82KM.


Can it slaughter Skardu snakes from Kargil heights with this range ?


It will need to be kept almost at the LOC border

You can Check using this tool - http://obeattie.github.io/gmaps-radius/ ... &u=km&r=80

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Gyan » 06 Sep 2017 13:43

As the round will go higher, hence range multiple might be more than 1.75

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 06 Sep 2017 15:09

People are already fantasizing about ultra long range guns. I am reminded of the paris gun that had a range of 70 kam and the shell was launched to such a hight that it was the first man made object to reach space.

Interesting, but the range makes some form of trajectory correction an absolute must.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 06 Sep 2017 20:20

Vidur, is Indian Army fully behind ATAGS? Not just range, but weight and ammo. It makes huge difference for strike corps.

Maybe holding corps can use them.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby sudeepj » 06 Sep 2017 21:18

brar_w wrote:In instances when there is no close air support available, GPS may just be the difference allowing artillery to come in and contribute. Collateral damage does not necessary always mean civilians and civilian infrastructure but could also mean blue forces. As I have mentioned in the past its importance is decidedly more in an expeditionary environment where you may not always have access to call in CAS in a timely fashion, or you may not have the logistical train to maintain a large ground based fires footprint. It allows option and in such a case a better cost comparison is with a Brimstone, Hellfire or guided rocket launched from a rotary winged asset overhead and how much you are willing to pay to have it there all the time. The reason it is there as an option, and has not replaced every artillery shell in the inventory of those that deploy it is because of this niche capability. It is not a one size fits all solution.


GPS guided shells can be very useful in reducing logistics requirements and as Brar pointed out, perhaps even reducing CAS duties. Imagine a scenario, where soldiers are out on an area domination patrol and run into an ambush and need support. This can be provided using guided munitions from an airplane or a drone (both expensive) or a guided shell from an artillery unit. Given the extended ranges of these guns and potentially unlimited firepower at their disposal (unlike drones and airplanes) this can be the more economical solution, even at $50,000 a pop. Consider the economics of maintaining a fast jet up in the air, consider the cost of even the most low end guided munition delivered from air etc. and my guess is this will immediately pop out as the more economical solution.

Finally, consider the logistics requirements in a place such as Afghanistan where states like Pakistan extract a strategic price for logistics support and the appeal of guided munitions goes up.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 06 Sep 2017 21:57

Wuff wuff saar but drones and planes can use tv or laser guided weapons. Gps as already noted is no great for such running battles like cheen troops on atv and buggies chasing our men

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vidur » 06 Sep 2017 22:12

ramana wrote:Vidur, is Indian Army fully behind ATAGS? Not just range, but weight and ammo. It makes huge difference for strike corps.

Maybe holding corps can use them.


Artillery is a critical and urgent need and army has made several attempts to try to get it. They have also tried to go for domestic options. Dhanush is one example. They have also tried to help a domestic pvt manufacturer with testing facilities but that did not happen. ATAGS is a good and fast option and they are keen for it to succeed. Testing process is on. Let it be completed.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby brar_w » 06 Sep 2017 22:34

Singha wrote:Wuff wuff saar but drones and planes can use tv or laser guided weapons. Gps as already noted is no great for such running battles like cheen troops on atv and buggies chasing our men


Not all fires would be required to strike moving, armored or soft moving targets. There may be plenty of support needs when blue forces are in close proximity and precision strike may need to be called in to provide assistance.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 07 Sep 2017 01:41

For Comparison 7.2" howitzer , Heavy artillery with Indian Army in 1965.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BL_7.2-inch_howitzer

This 7.2" howitzer had about 15.5Km range and was held at 2/corps as corps reserve.

ATAGS will be 2-3 tons more has 3 times the range

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 07 Sep 2017 04:49

Singha wrote:Wuff wuff saar but drones and planes can use tv or laser guided weapons. Gps as already noted is no great for such running battles like cheen troops on atv and buggies chasing our men


But won't BONUS type anti armour rounds or for that matters cargo rounds with cluster munition help.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Prem » 07 Sep 2017 05:25

Manish_P wrote:
Prem wrote:
Can it slaughter Skardu snakes from Kargil heights with this range ?


It will need to be kept almost at the LOC border
You can Check using this tool - http://obeattie.github.io/gmaps-radius/ ... &u=km&r=80


Bad that Skardu comes out as 87 KM from nearest Kargil point. We need to move LOC bit further Westward.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Manish_P » 07 Sep 2017 07:55

Yes sir . Need to do that Westward pushing all along the LOC.

For instance move down south below Poonch and see Isloo and Pindi come tempting close to range :)

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Gyan » 07 Sep 2017 17:47

GPS guided shells are about USD 100,000 a pop but GPS guided screw-in fuse/fins are only USD 10,000 a pop.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby brar_w » 07 Sep 2017 19:07

Overall yes, although late batches of the M982 Excalibur had an RF cost in the $70-$80K range. You would really need to aim for a triple digit monthly build rate to get them to be more affordable whereas at its peak production was still shy of 1000 rounds a year. You could probably land in the JDAM price point if you cranked them out as fast. Alternatively, with maturity the later increment PGK can probably come in at $15,000 or even crack the $10,000 barrier if produced in quantity.
Last edited by brar_w on 07 Sep 2017 19:36, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 07 Sep 2017 19:28

Gyan wrote:GPS guided shells are about USD 100,000 a pop but GPS guided screw-in fuse/fins are only USD 10,000 a pop.

ARDE is working on.this option.
Much lower cost.
Excaliber is Cadillac solution.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 07 Sep 2017 19:42

but unlike a JDAM, a shell has to withstand 1000s of G on launch.
not as simple as clipping on a pair of wings, a few sensors and computer.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby brar_w » 07 Sep 2017 19:45

Singha wrote:but unlike a JDAM, a shell has to withstand 1000s of G on launch.
not as simple as clipping on a pair of wings, a few sensors and computer.


I'm only claiming it to the JDAM kit's cost not suggesting that you turn the JDAM into an artillery shell. Production volume has an impact on cost and the best way to drive out cost is to either produced at a higher rate (say go from 900 per year to say 3000-5000 a year) or reduce performance requirements and find cheaper solutions as the PGK does while hitting a significantly lower cost. A a reference, JDAM production is in the thousands per month.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Gyan » 07 Sep 2017 22:17

At US$ 100,000 a pop, an economic question arises, which is, why not use Guided MBRL? which is in the same price range but double the range and 5 times the bang. Therefore at present economic argument is made only by screw-in fins/gps.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby srin » 07 Sep 2017 22:19

At that price, it is worthwhile having Pinaka or heck, even a Grad rocket with guidance kit. Will be way cheaper. The G forces on a rocket aren't as much as a howitzer shell.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 07 Sep 2017 23:19

Gyan wrote:At US$ 100,000 a pop, an economic question arises, which is, why not use Guided MBRL? which is in the same price range but double the range and 5 times the bang. Therefore at present economic argument is made only by screw-in fins/gps.


Excuse me please stop and smell the roses. Who in India has the $100,000 artillery shells?
Why keep the continuous bs?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Bart S » 07 Sep 2017 23:35

Compared with a howitzer an MBRL unity might have:
-Larger logistics requirement due to the refills required for it's salvos
-Is easier to shoot down with an Iron Dome type system
-Might not have the same level of mobility or access all areas, especially in mountainous regions

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 08 Sep 2017 07:15

but with easily 50km range and lesser cost, the pinaka type TCS is the way everyone is going.
the GPS guided shells are probably a khan specific evolutionary dead end unless someone finds a way to make it way cheaper like 5k a round.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 08 Sep 2017 07:30

People who are asking about the price of so called smart shells need to compare the costs of firing a full battry worth of ammo to kill a strong point over a period of several hrs. To a few smart shell. Laser guided or Gps guided. Then decide which one is cheaper.

I suspect that a single Gps guided she'll will be cheaper than 75*6 normal shells. That is one battry firing 75 shells per gun for one hrs. With no assurance that a hit will be scored in 1 hrs.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby brar_w » 08 Sep 2017 07:50

Precision artillery rounds fulfill a niche and as I said look attractive under an expeditionary setup when your logistical footprint matters. Just like fuel from a tanker halfway across the world does not cost the same per gallon to somewhere on a fixed base at land, there is a cost involved to maintain and deploy a capability to field enough munition both forward supplied/stored and flown form home to accomplish given mission objectives. The ability to switch to more accurate munitions reduces this burden and has a cost saving of its own. You can dial the precision up or down like is done through the three types of rounds that are available depending upon the mission. It also impacts mobility since you can re-deploy with a much smaller logistical footprint (generally means more speed) while still possessing the capability to attack the same number of targets.

The guns that utilize them are same. Sure you could carry other fires option say an artillery gun for unguided rounds, an MRLS setup for guided rounds and an ATACMS like solution for heavier and longer ranged support but all that comes in at a cost. PGK and Excalibur are there to serve a niche role and the former is actually quite affordable for an expeditionary sort of system where getting gear into the theater and then supporting that footprint has a cost of its own which must be factored in while making system trades and formulating requirements.

Image

M1156 kit costs were in the $12-13K range a few years ago but as per contract awards in 2016 they are down to around $8500 per shot driven by both full rate production, higher production rates in part due to larger US orders but also due to export to Australia and Canada.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 08 Sep 2017 08:34

so the CEP of a conventional 155mm round is 260 meters at around 30km ? I was thinking of positive neuj lines of 100m.

against area and soft skin targets may not matter as i heard the lethal radius of such a shell is around 100m?
but against "point" hard targets like a concrete bunker i guess one would need a 6 round salvo to score a good glancing hit or two.

no wonder we plastered kargil with enough shells to make the melted snow undrinkable for the pakis but the rats still hit under stones and fired back.

the PGK looks promising and not too costly ... just a screw on nose thing
Image

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby brar_w » 08 Sep 2017 08:49

PGK has been extensively used in Afghanistan and Iraq, and the kits have been seen with the USMC in Syria based on released video. The aim with that is to get the CEP down to <30m and I think the most recent increment is aiming for something even better. The M982 has its place but naturally due to cost and capability it is an even smaller role and more of a niche. It is basically there to provide artillery the ability to substitute for the lack of GMLRS or air support, or in an urban area where you are fighting close to the enemy position you need to strike. It is a good capability to have and this is why it is ordered but done so in quantities commensurate with that niche role but as is reflected in the order size PGK is a much more widely used capability.

Last edited by brar_w on 08 Sep 2017 09:04, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 08 Sep 2017 08:53

sweet. i suppose the challenge is in the small form factor - the canards and their actuators, battery, high G tolerance, fuse, GPS receiver, FCS computer in that tiny package.
makes good sense in this era of bush wars, small / agile / hard targets rather than a general all-out war.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby abhik » 08 Sep 2017 21:39

Its quite a clever design, the canards are fixed (no actuators) and the CEP is now claimed to be <10m.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby brar_w » 08 Sep 2017 23:56

Yes they did end up demonstrating better than objective CEP. From its operational testing report -

PGK exceeded its accuracy requirement
of 50 meters Circular Error Probable (CEP) by
demonstrating a median radial miss distance of 10 meters
in accuracy testing. Accuracy data indicate that with
90 percent confidence, the true CEP is less than or equal to
20.9 meters.


Image
Last edited by brar_w on 09 Sep 2017 03:49, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby SBajwa » 09 Sep 2017 00:54

Can we use PGM against specific targets like house of JEM chief in Bahawalpur or house of Hafiz suar at Muridke?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 09 Sep 2017 01:05

Some excalibur impacts. Should give us an idea of the impact radius.


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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby sudeepj » 09 Sep 2017 03:06

abhik wrote:Its quite a clever design, the canards are fixed (no actuators) and the CEP is now claimed to be <10m.


If the canards/wings dont move, how will it guide the projectile? The little wings move alright.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby kit » 09 Sep 2017 03:42

Islamabad suddenly looks quite near :mrgreen: ..a bit of help from extended range munitions ..instead if shelling the border next time shell Islamabad :mrgreen: ..a nice bombardment every time some one sneaks up near the border

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 09 Sep 2017 04:45

Here my view on what IA is thinking.

ATAGS is a no holds bar, all bells and whistles gun. Will be deployed all front, where it's weight will not be a constraint.

Now where weight is an issue, guess what,we have dhanush. With 12 ton,it can go where Bofors can go especially in mountains. It has common parts ammo with atags. It is atags lite.

Where even dhanush is a problem, we will have M777!

I think we may be saved of "weight goose chasing"! IA should not have any issues with atags weight.

By the way Bharat forge version did 48 km + today.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Bishwa » 09 Sep 2017 05:37

https://defenceaviationpost.com/make-in ... e-pokhran/

As Nam mentioned, Bharat Forge gun did 48+ KM

"A steady but arduous, technically challenging journey has seen many firsts in the development of this gun, culminating with achievement of range in excess of 48 KM with HE ERFB BB and 38.5 KM with HE ERFB BT ammunition (the long range high explosive-base bleed ammunition),” said a senior official who witnessed the trial firings at Pokhran range."

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Karan M » 09 Sep 2017 06:07

Guys, still remember the contempt and derision DRDO faced when they said they would do ATAGS. Glad to see the courage Shri VKS and ARDE showed giving the nation such dividends. Never forget, next time some advanced program is mooted and people pop up to shower epithets.

Next, here is a key takeaway!

“A steady but arduous, technically challenging journey has seen many firsts in the development of this gun, culminating with achievement of range in excess of 48 KM with HE ERFB BB and 38.5 KM with HE ERFB BT ammunition (the long range high explosive-base bleed ammunition),” said a senior official who witnessed the trial firings at Pokhran range.


Note attention being paid to the entire ecosystem.

The ordnance including barrel and breech mechanism, on both variants of ATAGS, is developed at Kalyani Group Advanced Artillery Manufacturing Facility.


and:

According to defence sources, the ATAGS trials being conducted at Pokharan ranges are targeted at various distances to validate firing capacity of zone 7 with 25 litres effective chamber volume and the guns are performing as per expectations.


Repeated trials for the design, material, machining

A special feature of ATAGS, all electric drives for laying and ammunition handling system, in any artillery system is a first. It ensures better and more reliable performance compared with earlier less reliable hydraulic systems.


Good move to learn for many other gun programs - AD to tank ones, for which DRDO has a special program.

It may be noted here that this artillery gun project started in 2014 with the selection of Bharat Forge Ltd, a Kalyani Group company and TATA Power SED as two major Development Partners of DRDO-ARDE’s prestigious program. The two platforms which were tested earlier in PXE Balasore in Dec 2016 were publicly showcased at 68th Republic Day Parade on 26th January 2017.


Careful vendor selection by DRDO. Proven systems house ie TATA SED via Pinaka and Akash programs. And then Kalyani for the gun itself.

The first proof firing of the armament was conducted in 2015 with maximum record chamber pressure of over 560MPa as P2 pressure.

The barrel and breech mechanism for ATAGS is developed by Bharat Forge with specially designed metallurgy to cater for zone 7 and comes under critical technology. Both firing platforms have the ordnance systems made by Bharat Forge Ltd., flagship company of Kalyani Group.


Now here is the awesome part.
http://www.makeinindiadefence.com/List% ... 4%2016.pdf

SHQ(ARMY)
Project No.1
125MM SMOOTH BORE GUN BARREL FOR T-72 & T-90 TANKS WITH MISSILE
FIRING AND IMPROVED AMMUNITION
1.Name of Project
125MM Smooth Bore Gun barrel for T-72 & T-90 tanks with missile firing and improved ammunition.
2.Brief
The current T-72 & T-90 tank barrels are not capable of firing
high penetration APFSDS rounds (above 600mm Depth of Penetration(DoP)) due to limitation of safety margin of 600 Mega Pascals (Mpa). There is a requirement to upgrade a common barrel system and ammunition for existing tanks.
Development of ammunition to provide capability of penetration and missile firing capability with these barrels also required to be developed together.


With this program Kalyani & DRDO are in striking range of the latest & greatest barrels on our T-90s already.

Now, the base exists to take this forward, which has a direct correlation for the FMBT and the Arjun program as well (which BTW, can achieve 612 MPA https://drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfocus/feb02/arjun.htm).

DRDO now has a private sector partner to develop the next generation gun platform for the Arjun follow on (if it appears) & a current program underway for making a Gun launched missile as well. For the Army, it is now making FSAPDS (in development) hitting the 500mm-600mm RHAe limits.

There is another program underway for an electric drive system for tanks.

Earlier this year we saw the brand new EOFCS program available for tanks, QRSAM and Aerostats. In production.

A FCS is being developed for the T-90 fleet, after a commanders basic Thermal sight was developed by DRDO.

ERA Mk-2 has been developed equal to K-5. But a follow on is planned.

A 1500 hp engine program is also underway and funded.

In short, the basics of a FMBT are being put in place despite Arjun fracas.


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