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Artillery Discussion Thread

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Picklu
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Picklu » 10 Sep 2017 22:24

It is 2D guidance, not 3D

My understanding is the lift generated gets altered due to the spin and any deviation in range gets corrected (within limits)

However the sidewise errors can't be.

But that's ok for the most part since based on currect dispersal pattern (there is one in Brar's ppt as well), range correct is required more

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 10 Sep 2017 23:09

Ramana, I cannot find any reference to ARDE's PGK type fuse for 155 mm shells, other than Dr. Avinash Chander's interview to bharat defence kavach from back in 2013. Can you redirect me towards any link ? Thanks.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 11 Sep 2017 02:08

ramana wrote:
ramana wrote:Kanson, ARDE and a group are working on Smart Fuzes like the US GPS Fuze and another. Will move away from mechanical fuzes is the goal.
In fact the pitch has same photo as the US GPS Fuze. Will link it on Saturday. Its on internet.

Link here:

http://ofb.gov.in/download/make_in_indi ... a_AMMN.pdf


Here hope they hurry up.

Looks like plan is to develop for 155mm guns and onwards.



Thakur

Look at pdf.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 11 Sep 2017 03:21

brar_w wrote:
ramana wrote:
brar, Thanks works as I imagined. How is the trajectory corrected? Does the spin slow down or resume based on the trajectory to target?


The best understanding I have been able to develop is through this presentation. Haven't done a search to see if anyone in the US Army or ATK published research but will look for something to see if more details are available.


Brar_W
Thanks. Slides 9,11, 12, & 13 make the compelling case for the PGK fuze.
The interesting thing is it works on 155mm, 105mm, and the mortars. Truly innovative dispersion reduction device,

Slide 9 defines the forces. I forgot the body lift which causes so many headaches. Wonder if there is coupling between the rotating canards and the fuze body. I still think you need to control how much de-spin you want.

Let me think on it.

BTW in the footnotes, the author explains why this won't work on fin stabilized rounds. The de-spin forces are additive to the body lift and counter productive.


I will try to locate the gripe from fuze vendors about so many features in one fuze which keeps them out. It's posted in the mil forum.

-----

OK found it in this thread only on Page 80

LINK

Essentially there is a plan to consolidate fuzes with ECIL and replace mechanical fuzes with electronic for tube artillery.
Note the CAG reports that M572 PD fuze has zero delivery.

I did not understand when I first read it.

ramana
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 11 Sep 2017 04:21

A video that explains artillery usage in WWI which was the first artillery war



This video will focus on how the use of Artillery changed throughout the war and cover some of the many major innovations. Artillery tactics changed to a large degree from 1914 to 1918, whereas in 1914 the use of artillery in tactics and techniques had still a strong resemblance to the Napoleonic era, in 1918 the foundations of a modern artillery is clearly recognizable. Although the basic principles of indirect fire, massed fire, counterbattery fire, calibration and meteorological corrections and combined arms were known, they were usually not applied on the field in 1914, yet in 1918 these principles were used consistently and to a large degree by all sides.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 11 Sep 2017 21:25

The Dhanush has fired over 3000 rounds in the trials.
It would be good to know what is the approximate dispersion for the shells?
And what type of Fuzes were used so far : M572 fuze and the Proximity fuze?

Is it better than the 260m for the M107 shell?

The ARDE should develop their version of the PGK in two phases :
Phase I incorporate GPS and/INS to function the fuze in the vicinity of the target.
Phase II: Incorporate error correction with the rotating fins etc.

Phase I is suggested to give functionality to the Fuzes.
Dhanush dispersion with all its modern computer should be better than the Bofors gun.
The proximity fuze already has a battery section.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kanson » 11 Sep 2017 23:44

^ Don't have numbers on dispersion, but Danush is established as more consistent. Consistency is proved beyond doubt. Fired over 4000 rounds in trials, another first, and a record in terms of trials held so far.

Regarding PGK, IA is listening/talking to various players including european, non-american entities. Gives the impression they too want such solution.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 12 Sep 2017 01:05

This PGK solution is absolutely great. Its simplicity is its elegance. I expect every country to field their version shortly.

ramana
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 12 Sep 2017 01:15

Indranil Its great for US allies as it relies on GPS.

The Indian version will have two other enhancements: Gagan and INS.
As the range is less than 50 km the INS will give good results.
As you are aero type, tell me how they control the de-spin process to shape the trajectory?

I am thinking the coil acts as a regenerative brake and controls the de-spin rate of the canard

The ATK presentation says shell aerodynamics is complex but once understood the concept is simple.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 12 Sep 2017 01:16

Wonder if rockets(MBRL) can be fitted with the PGK. Would make a deadly precision weapon,cheap and larger warhead.
Last edited by nam on 12 Sep 2017 01:30, edited 1 time in total.

ramana
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 12 Sep 2017 01:28

nam wrote:Wonder if rockets(MBRL) can be fitted with the PGK. Would make a deadly precision weapon and cheap.


Yes. US wants to use PGK on mortars to GMLRs.
The caveat is the projectile should be spin stabilized.
The reason is the canard lift is additive to the body lift for fin stabilized bodies.
In plain language wont work for fin stabilized rockets.

I will post some links in a few minutes.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Bart S » 12 Sep 2017 01:43

nam wrote:Wonder if rockets(MBRL) can be fitted with the PGK. Would make a deadly precision weapon,cheap and larger warhead.


Well, there is already stuff like the Israeli TCS and APKWS for smaller rockets so its certainly doable.

ramana
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 12 Sep 2017 02:04

PGK Links:

1) PGK Pitch from ATK 2008 ATK Pitch
Gives a very good cost benefit summary of using a precision guidance on artillery shells and they system wide benefits

2) Aerodynamics of PGK shell LINK

This one is study by a South Korean University. Only the abstract.

3)Aerodynamics of course corrected spin stabilized shells

This one is a lab study by Bofors and has two additional bells and whistles.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 12 Sep 2017 02:43

Ramana sir, slides 7 and 8 in the slide deck posted by brar answers it.

By placing the control canards at the correct orientation (in the plane perpendicular to the longitudinal axis of the projectile), you can change the net lift on the projectile. As the CL is in front of the CG, this creates the moment. The stepper function is achieved using adaptive braking using a simple alternator.

Picklu wrote:It is 2D guidance, not 3D

My understanding is the lift generated gets altered due to the spin and any deviation in range gets corrected (within limits)

However the sidewise errors can't be.

But that's ok for the most part since based on currect dispersal pattern (there is one in Brar's ppt as well), range correct is required more

Incorrect sir, the nose can be moved "left, right, top, bottom". That is the 2D guidance.


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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kakarat » 12 Sep 2017 16:37

Ajay Banerjee‏ @ajaynewsman

-#M777 howtizer accident at firing range in India. No injuries to anyone. @adgpi @SpokespersonMoD
-Ammo burst in pieces inside barrel

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby deejay » 12 Sep 2017 16:40

^^^^ So trials still on. Lucky no injuries.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kakarat » 12 Sep 2017 16:42

More Details
Livefist‏@livefist

4:31 PM - 12 Sep 2017 BREAKING: M777 howitzer barrel bursts during firing tests at Pokhran. Incident took place 10 days ago. No injuries, says Army.
4:32 PM - 12 Sep 2017 M777 in Pokhran to generate Army's firing tables. In this incident, Indian ammunition exited barrel in multiple pieces causing barrel burst.
4:33 PM - 12 Sep 2017 Army: 'The barrel of the M777 has been damaged, extent of which is being assessed by jt investigation team at site.'

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby fanne » 12 Sep 2017 16:51

shell quality or some systematic failure?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 12 Sep 2017 16:53

4:32 PM - 12 Sep 2017 M777 in Pokhran to generate Army's firing tables. In this incident, Indian ammunition exited barrel in multiple pieces causing barrel burst.


Interesting description of the incident compared to Dhanush.

I will wait for a day to see if there are viral news report on "faulty M777 barrels".

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Sid » 12 Sep 2017 16:59

^^ we should expect a report like "faulty Indian (OFB) ammunition caused M777 accident". They are already painting M777 as a victim in their press release.

4:32 PM - 12 Sep 2017 M777 in Pokhran to generate Army's firing tables. In this incident, Indian ammunition exited barrel in multiple pieces causing barrel burst.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Manish_P » 12 Sep 2017 17:08

Indian ammunition is mentioned. Dhanush barrel burst saga deja vu ?

Just glad no one was hurt very badly..

My respect to those heroes just goes up higher. The dangers they face even in peace times are huge

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 12 Sep 2017 17:34

I recall a similar incident during the testing of the Pegasus 155 mm gun by Singapore. The shell burst inside the barrel. That was due to a faulty fuse.

So this could be due to that as well.

So let the RCA be done by the army and then may be we can know what exactly happen.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kakarat » 12 Sep 2017 17:42


brar_w
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby brar_w » 12 Sep 2017 18:01

nam wrote:
4:32 PM - 12 Sep 2017 M777 in Pokhran to generate Army's firing tables. In this incident, Indian ammunition exited barrel in multiple pieces causing barrel burst.


Interesting description of the incident compared to Dhanush.

I will wait for a day to see if there are viral news report on "faulty M777 barrels".


Not to nitpick, but it has been known that the current trials are testing and integrating local munition with the imported system. That this is mentioned as a description of the event is appropriate imho. If someone wrongly attributes the cause based just on these "Known facts" then it would be a matter worth criticizing. But until we have official word on what the Indian Army, and the OEM supporting the trials this cannot be ascertained.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohiths » 12 Sep 2017 18:10

If foreign maal malfunctions it is because of Indian shells or poor training. If Indian maal malfunctions it is because of poor product or design. Either way it is SDRE fault. I just hope they don't scrap purchases because of this barrel bursting.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 12 Sep 2017 19:24

brar_w wrote:
nam wrote:
Interesting description of the incident compared to Dhanush.

I will wait for a day to see if there are viral news report on "faulty M777 barrels".


Not to nitpick, but it has been known that the current trials are testing and integrating local munition with the imported system. That this is mentioned as a description of the event is appropriate imho. If someone wrongly attributes the cause based just on these "Known facts" then it would be a matter worth criticizing. But until we have official word on what the Indian Army, and the OEM supporting the trials this cannot be ascertained.


Was a sarcastic remark :D

Comments meant for the media which went to town blaming Dhanush barrels when such a incident happened before. All sorts of report came out that Dhanush induction will be delayed or scrapped due to the barrel busting.

Compare to that, this incident description very specifically mentions the ammo... to prevent anyone pointing finger towards M777.

Either way, if faulty barrel on dhanush or ammo, OFB get the blame, which will make me glad. They need tons of bricks on their head.


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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby sudeepj » 12 Sep 2017 19:46

Uhh.. the OFB ammo has burst in the original Bofors, the Dhanush and now the M777. Seems to point to the ammo, not the guns.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Austin » 12 Sep 2017 20:03

Happened before too but good in our case no one was injured

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2011/03/ ... 300224209/

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Nitesh » 12 Sep 2017 20:20

Even Saurab Jha has started claiming (in twitter) that DDL Dalal Defence League is activated to save the imported system.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Karthik S » 12 Sep 2017 21:00

Artillery mishap killed two US soldiers in Iraq when their M777 gun exploded
The soldiers were targeting an ISIS position but the howitzer misfired and the shell exploded killing two and injuring five.


http://us.blastingnews.com/news/2017/08 ... 35453.html

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 12 Sep 2017 21:09




brar_w, Thanks for the papers.
The first one is a single canard concept paper.
The second is closer to PGK. Will read and study it.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 12 Sep 2017 21:20

Kakarat wrote:Ajay Banerjee‏ @ajaynewsman

-#M777 howtizer accident at firing range in India. No injuries to anyone. @adgpi @SpokespersonMoD
-Ammo burst in pieces inside barrel



- First glad no personnel were injured.

- Second this puts a kabash on the motivated leakers who tried hard to malign Dhanush. Barrel burst is with Bofors, upgraded 130 mm barrels, Dhanush, and now M777.

- Third the fact that M777 had a barrel burst in US in 2011 shows its not just OFB ammunition.

- Fourth the Army artillery community has not been candid about the problems they have and nor addressed it in a comprehensive systematic manner.
But for the last TOI report from Nashik ,the fact that 40 separate incidents have occurred in the past with Bofors, upgraded 130mm barrels, would have thought it was a problem confined to Dhanush only.

This show there is a systemic problem and not just blame the gun(s).

- Fifth I had mentioned in some post the IA better understand this shell burst for if it happens on the M777 it could be expensive.

-Sixth if the M777 accident happened 10 days ago why the need for keeping it quiet and give press releases to uninformed press reporters?

Will open another post to look at the root cause analysis.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 12 Sep 2017 22:06

well well well...I present a video of a marine M777 in afpak whose recoil mechanism broke. and on top of it they had to fire high angle rounds to support a nearby firefight. tons of sweating and cursing manhandling it like a 120mm mortar

the comments are telling. i wonder if BAE reps will be posted in tawang and depsang to help out?

it will be interesting to see its uptime in IA service in indian conditions once the mighty Shinooks sling it to some isolated hamlet with not even proper roads to tow it there :D let alone a burger king for bideshi experts to hang out in between troubleshooting sessions

http://www.military.com/video/operation ... 1854731001

Erichs
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Why is this gun so hard to operate? It seems that it has to be lowered every time it needs to be reloaded like a 16 inch gun on a battleship.

dave81sg
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Erichs It does have to be lowered to a certain elevation but normally the gun fires in "Low Angle". The fact the crew is supporting Troops in Contact (TIC) only a half mile away (which would be easily direct fire range) means the crew has to elevate to "High Angle" and lob the round up. I'm an FO and can't comment on crew proficiency but my buddy, who was a Triple 7 instructor told me from watching and listening to this video that this howitzer is totally broke. The good thing about the Triple 7: even when broke you can still manhandle it through missions. He showed me a video of his AIT crew pumping out about three rounds in 30 seconds (way too many for sustained fire) but still impressive. From two tours in Afghanistan, I can tell you the heat breaks equipment down and the dust gets absolutly everywhere and in places you just can't get to to clean. BAE had a contact team going around to FOBs just to keep these guns operational. My question is: Why is there only one gun firing? Is there only one gun on the FOB? Are the other guns broke to bad to fire?

Tim1952
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I'm not a gunner, but it's obvious that the mechanism that is supposed to return the barrel forward from the recoil isn't operating. The crew has to lower the barrel so they're not pushing against gravity and then manually push the barrel forward before they can load and fire another round. I commend them on their hard efforts to complete the fire mission despite the failure of the recoil mechanism. It is also a sad commentary on the lack of logistics and maintenance support that the repair parts aren't available, or that contractor support isn't available, to keep the weapon system in proper operating condition.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 12 Sep 2017 22:43

Singha, Lets not bandwagon and diss the M777 yet.
God knows IA needs new guns.
Again its most likely an issue of 155mm shells in long barrels with high charge.

This leads to the shell wobbling/ balloting and will lead to exploding in barrel.
The accelerations are around 40,000 gs. That force is imparted in millisecs.
And could function the shell explosives without a fuze.


BTW, folks Livefist says the Indian Army statement said the words quoted in his tweet.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Prem Kumar » 12 Sep 2017 22:49

Singha wrote:He showed me a video of his AIT crew pumping out about three rounds in 30 seconds (way too many for sustained fire) but still impressive. From two tours in Afghanistan, I can tell you the heat breaks equipment down and the dust gets absolutly everywhere and in places you just can't get to to clean


Well, well, well .... indeed

1) 3 rounds in 30 seconds is impressive for M777. ATAGS does 6 rounds in 30 seconds! Suck on that

2) "Dust gets everywhere" - welcome to Rajasthan, Mr. GI Joes. This is what the Indian Army puts its guns through

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Prem Kumar » 12 Sep 2017 22:52

Ramana Ji: I reported a post to the Mods (about a different thread). Can you please look into it? Thanks

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby brar_w » 12 Sep 2017 23:22

Singha wrote:well well well...I present a video of a marine M777 in afpak whose recoil mechanism broke. and on top of it they had to fire high angle rounds to support a nearby firefight. tons of sweating and cursing manhandling it like a 120mm mortar



Not an expert, but I would guess that reliability would measured by taking into account a fairly large sample size and one off incidents explored and analyzed to single out hardware, munition, or TTP concerns and not develop insight into overall system or component reliability. Any idea on how many total artillery rounds were fired in Afghanistan with the M777?

Also on contracting support, that is a customer decision on how it procures O&S in or out. You can completely do away with the OEM and field organic support capability for the 1000+ systems you have acquired, or if you don't want to carry that you do a mix, and dial support up when you require it at higher intensity as would be the case if you have systems deployed in multiple theaters of operation halfway across the world. Same applies to India, India can contract with private industry for support or look to do it all in house.
Last edited by brar_w on 12 Sep 2017 23:41, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Picklu » 12 Sep 2017 23:23

Indranil wrote:Ramana sir, slides 7 and 8 in the slide deck posted by brar answers it.

By placing the control canards at the correct orientation (in the plane perpendicular to the longitudinal axis of the projectile), you can change the net lift on the projectile. As the CL is in front of the CG, this creates the moment. The stepper function is achieved using adaptive braking using a simple alternator.

Picklu wrote:It is 2D guidance, not 3D

My understanding is the lift generated gets altered due to the spin and any deviation in range gets corrected (within limits)

However the sidewise errors can't be.

But that's ok for the most part since based on currect dispersal pattern (there is one in Brar's ppt as well), range correct is required more

Incorrect sir, the nose can be moved "left, right, top, bottom". That is the 2D guidance.


Thanks for the correction


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