Artillery: News & Discussion

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sudeepj
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby sudeepj » 09 May 2018 00:06

nam wrote:
sudeepj wrote:Possibly two or three tonnes can be reduced by replacing steel wheels with alloy, replace regular steel in trails with ultra-high-strength steel or titanium. More than that is simply asking for trouble. Meanwhile Pakis have inducted Panter in numbers.. 155mmx52Cal Turkish artillery that outranges any tube that we have today.


Paks don't have Panther. They decided not to induct it due to.... weight!


Numerous source indicate that they have 72 guns built under ToT from Turkey. Even the OEMs web page says Pak ordered their guns..

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 09 May 2018 00:13

sudeepj wrote:
nam wrote:
Paks don't have Panther. They decided not to induct it due to.... weight!


Numerous source indicate that they have 72 guns built under ToT from Turkey. Even the OEMs web page says Pak ordered their guns..


Comments from Pak fora says, they did not induct it. Couple of them were "gifted" and it is been used as a while elephant.

If they have been license building, by this time they would be shouting from the roof, it is the best thing after bread ever since they touched it.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby jaysimha » 09 May 2018 15:12

bit old / known news.........posting for records.

Press Information Bureau
Government of India
Ministry of Defence
05-March-2018 15:00 IST
Supply of Fake Chinese Parts for Dhanush Guns

An anonymous complaint was lodged in one case of procurement of 6 Wire Race Roller Bearing purchased from M/s Sidh Sales Syndicate, Delhi by Gun Carriage Factory, Jabalpur, being fitted in 155mm x 45 Calibre Gun ‘Dhanush’. As per the purchase order, these bearings were to be sourced from M/s CRB, Germany. Preliminary investigation has revealed that the bearings supplied by M/s Sidh Sales Syndicate, Delhi were manufactured by a Chinese firm and not by M/s CRB, Germany. There is no adverse observation regarding quality of bearings. Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) has further referred the case to CBI, Economic Wing for more detailed enquiry as recommended by Chief Vigilance Officer, OFB. Business dealing with M/s Sidh Sales Syndicate, Delhi has been suspended by OFB.
This information was given by RakshaRajyaMantriDr. Subhash Bhamre in a written reply to ShriC.M. Rameshin Rajya Sabha today.
http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease.aspx?relid=176946
NAo/Nampi/Rajib/HS

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 09 May 2018 19:15

Yes this case was followed up and new parts procured for the production Dhanush.

Only we haven't heard if the OFB officials were dismissed for their role in spurious parts procurement.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Arun.prabhu » 10 May 2018 06:59

Not true. You can airdrop anything once and you can lift this weight once and then go into medical retirement with a broken and ruined back.

And in battle, I'm sure that our heroic jawans have done just that if required. Just read the citations of our awards for martial valour. The indomitable human spirit can accomplish supernatural things when driven by sufficient will.

nam wrote:
hnair wrote:4) Lifting up the towing-arms/spades manually is where they separate the men from boys. seems 8 odd folks, from the officer onwards, need to keep their spines ramrod stiff and use only the hamstrings to lift the nearly one-tonne arms and swing it to position. If one does this part wrong, you can get debilitating back issues and screw up the whole gun-team's happiness. Guessing here: this is why the ATAGS, with what looks like even more massive tow-arms than the existing pieces, needed those electric drives on the smaller wheels in the arms. Also reason why Army might be asking for weight reduction, incase of subsystem failure of the drives


ATAGS is suppose to lift 6 rounds, compared to 3 on Bofors. There is no way any such thing can be done manually.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 10 May 2018 22:47

^^^ Where are you going with your argument?

We want the gun team to deliver effective fire and not suffer broken backs for heroic effort by lifting unnecessary weights.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Arun.prabhu » 11 May 2018 07:08

nowhere. Just observing that machines break down in battle under fire and when that happens,it falls on our jawans to save the day by being used up.

ramana wrote:^^^ Where are you going with your argument?

We want the gun team to deliver effective fire and not suffer broken backs for heroic effort by lifting unnecessary weights.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby hnair » 11 May 2018 16:40

nam, what I quoted is not the ordinance loading capability of FH77 or ATAGS (3 shells vs 6), but lifting the very heavy tow-arm manually from towing mode to firing position and vice-versa. Also ordinance-handling crane is a good feature, but can be supplanted during breakdown with a bucket-brigade or human-chain can be used to feed the ammo-tray of the gun, as is the case with the older guns.

ramana wrote:

Thanks for talking to a real live arty officer.
Russain 130 mm is a Gun Howitzer and has direct fire mode which allows use in plains and mountains for the high angle fire feature. However due to the trails, it has limitation on the elevation angle. Workarounds are there due to ingenuity of Indian soldier but they are workarounds.


A few questions :
The 105mm came in two different designs.

http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/weapons/wlc/3.htm

The earlier version (IFG) had lot of negative feed back.

Is he familiar with the second version of LFG?


Yes electronic location and fire control allows more accurate gun laying.

Regarding electronic fuzes. Now these are more delicate then mechanical fuzes and shell balloting could cause premature fire in the barrel. How does IA control barrel wear as that is only feature under user control.
has he seen this muzzle strike in FH77 as is reported by TOI.


ramanaji, a few observations:

I did not clarify, but my assumption is that he was talking about the second version, since he is a mid-90s era cadet. Has served tours in Siachen during bad times.

Btw, the gun laying system's high altitude/extreme cold-weather issues with those coil springs (and other pinions), seem to have been reported in the L118 (and its variants) by both US as well as UK. Net has lots of pics with the those coil springs wrapped in cloth bagging

British:
Image

From wiki, american enhancements in Afghanistan:

Project Manager for Towed Artillery Systems (PM TAS) has developed several upgrades for the M119A3 including digital fire control, increased low temperature capability from −25 to −51 °F (−32 to −46 °C), and the M20 breech. The recoil system is also being upgraded, as the legacy system had reliability issues with the recuperator, buffer, and variable recoil linkage (which sets recoil length based on elevation); it had a lot of moving parts needing constant maintenance and adjustment during operations with high replacement rates of spares that are complex to manufacture and require specialized tooling to assemble, increasing costs and causing availability problems. The redesigned system operates the same, but modifies and simplifies some components, including a new buffer and recuperator with a majority of the components removed, and adds the Suspension Lockout System (SLOS) that fixes recoil length at 25 in (64 cm), which removes variable-recoil hardware, reduces stress on the carriage, and lowers buffer rod forces; the new system reduces cost, number of parts by 40 percent to 75, and overall weight by 45 lb (20 kg).[4]


American troops with the gun (the gunny bag is visible )
Image

Not sure I want to ask about muzzle strike, but will ask if there is any online or open source material about the same, which escaped our searches (eg; videos)

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby manjgu » 11 May 2018 17:25

isnt the panter weight almost same as ATAGS??

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 11 May 2018 21:25

So the US improvements were : fixed recoil, new muzzle brake aka buffer/recuperator.
I wish they used the word altitude instead of elevation when talking about guns!

The fixed recoil reduces the complexity and improves reliability. The new muzzle brake reduces the recoil and both are needed together.
DFC improves gun laying accuracy.

Cold weather causes the spring material to go brittle. This causes more recoil forces.
So most likely new spring material which has good tensile strength at that temperature range.

Most spring materials are not used in this low temperature environment.


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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vips » 15 May 2018 21:05

Army moving towards procuring mounted gun system, trying to revalidate project.

In its latest efforts to equip its artillery regiments with news guns, the Indian Army is finally moving towards procuring 814 of the ‘mounted gun system’- a gun mounted on a wheeled vehicle- a project worth about Rs 15,750 crore.

The army is trying to ‘re-validate’ the project and seek a fresh Acceptance of Necessity (AoN) from the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) headed by the defence minister, Nirmala Sitharaman, ministry officials explained.

The AoN is the first step towards procuring an equipment. In this case, the AoN for acquiring the 155mm/52 caliber mounted gun system for the army for Rs 15,750 crore was given in November 22, 2014 by the DAC headed by the then defence minister Manohar Parrikar. For the army, the gun is a major requirement, as once procured they will be deployed along the western frontier with Pakistan and the eastern one with China.

“But the Request for Proposal (RFP) was not issued within the validity period of the AoN and so the AoN had lapsed. Therefore the army will revalidate the case and seek a fresh AoN, which will restart the process,” explained officials.


The circus starts again.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 16 May 2018 01:46

Seems like a joke.
AON has not changed.

Need is still there.

Why was RFP not issued on time?

Just a merry go around with pompous acronyms to delay and increase costs.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Picklu » 16 May 2018 16:41

Tatra dhanush is now a solid candidate for MGS in MII category. This option was not there earlier.

My wild ass guess off course.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby sarabpal.s » 16 May 2018 19:27

Picklu wrote:Tatra dhanush is now a solid candidate for MGS in MII category. This option was not there earlier.

My wild ass guess off course.

They still need to refine it , by removing some unnecessary equipment which is for tow base ,look at the French . also choice of truck should b 6*6 and gun need to base right on top of rear wheels

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 16 May 2018 19:49

The latest french mounted system is a 8X8. So, now “should” our mounted system be 8X8?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 16 May 2018 21:53

i saw a program on history channel called "firepower:indian army" a kind of exercise by a mixed band of T90 tank, then artillery unit, then a MMG+AGS unit, then a infantry squad from a IFV

in the artillery, the FH77 with its APU driver moved into position easily
the D30 need a dozen men to exert a lot of effort to move into position, including some climbing atop the barrel to force it down by sheer bodyweight.
the 105mm were manhandled , and easier than D30 for sure.
it definitely affects the fatigue levels over a long hot day of pounding the enemy if the gun can move and turn on its own.

the 30 grenade box mag of the AGS17 puts out a impressive barrage of fire.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vips » 22 May 2018 05:02

India's first long-range artillery gun `Dhanush' set for trial this week.

Dhanush, the first long-range artillery gun developed indigenously by Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) and manufactured by Jabalpur-based Gun Carriage Factory (GCF), will undergo trial in Jaisalmer’s Pokhran sometime this week.

The test of the first indigenous, 155 mm long-range artillery gun 'Dhanush' will be conducted at Jaisalmer's Pokhran field firing range in the presence of representatives of Indian Army technical officers and GCF experts.

Along with the trial of its long-range firepower, the performance of 'Dhanush' in the summer heat and other adverse conditions will also be tested.

'Dhanush' has been developed by Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) and manufactured by Jabalpur-based Gun Carriage Factory (GCF). The trial of 'Dhanush' which was going on for the last five years had initially faced some major hiccups over the ammunition used.

Two years back, while the trial was going on, a shell had burst in the barrel owing to which further trials had to be stopped. The issue was, however, resolved after a successful upgradation in the Balasore range of Odisha.

Known as an upgraded version of Sweden's Bofors gun, more than 80 per cent of its parts are built indigenously. Bofors could hit targets at a distance of 29 km, while the Dhanush can hit the target at a distance of 38 km.

In comparison to Bofors, which works on hydraulic system, the Indian version operates under electronic systems. With the help of night vision device, it can hit targets in the night.

It uses 125-mm shells and can fire 5 to 6 shells in a minute. More than 400 Dhanush guns are expected to be acquired by the Army.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby uddu » 22 May 2018 07:34

Singha wrote:i saw a program on history channel called "firepower:indian army" a kind of exercise by a mixed band of T90 tank, then artillery unit, then a MMG+AGS unit, then a infantry squad from a IFV

in the artillery, the FH77 with its APU driver moved into position easily
the D30 need a dozen men to exert a lot of effort to move into position, including some climbing atop the barrel to force it down by sheer bodyweight.
the 105mm were manhandled , and easier than D30 for sure.
it definitely affects the fatigue levels over a long hot day of pounding the enemy if the gun can move and turn on its own.

the 30 grenade box mag of the AGS17 puts out a impressive barrage of fire.




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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby pravula » 22 May 2018 08:22

Geo locked.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Philip » 22 May 2018 09:54

Kalyani's 155mm arty piece has a range of 48km!
They also have light-weight pieces of 4.5 t with a hybrid model still lighter.Good details in the F mag.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 23 May 2018 03:18

What is the accuracy claimed for the ATAGS rounds?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Philip » 24 May 2018 04:33

ATAGS.1000 rounds fired.Consistency and accuracy described as " very good" .Other party products are Bharat 52, Bharat 45 and Garuda 105.
The ULH "futuristic" piece is called the 155/39.Weighs 4.8t with conventional recoil.The hybrid advanced recoil reduces weight even further to less than 4.5t.Both guns proof fired at P-2 pressure in March.Can be transported by battlefield helos.One presumes our MI-17s very definitely the MI-26s.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vonkabra » 25 May 2018 16:08

From the Week's interview with Dr Christopher:

What about the towed guns? The army has not had a gun in the last quarter century.

There are issues over range and accuracy, when developing a gun. If you ask for extended range, you have to be prepared to dilute on other factors, like accuracy. We made three ATAGS [Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System] for the Army. We were happy to take Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman to Pokhran to witness ATAGS firing [trials]. We have to do many more trials.


https://www.theweek.in/theweek/current/2018/05/18/interview-s-christopher-chairman-drdo.html

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vips » 30 May 2018 18:05

Upgraded Pinaka rocket successfully test-fired.

An upgraded version of Pinaka rocket, with a guidance system and an enhanced range, was successfully test-fired from the Proof & Experiment Establishment (PXE) at Chandipur in Odisha today.

"Two rounds of tests have been conducted and some more rounds have been planned," said a defence source here.

The earlier Pinaka version, which was an unguided one, has now been upgraded into a guided version, with a navigation, guidance and control kit developed by the Research Centre Hyderabad, he said.

The RCI comes under the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

According to a source in the DRDO, the conversion helped in enhancing the range and accuracy of Pinaka.

If its range was earlier 40 km, it is more than 70 km now, he said.

"Radars, electro-optical systems and telemetry systems at the defence range at Chandipur, tracked and monitored the rocket all through its flight path. The guided version is Pinaka mark-II, which evolved from Pinaka mark-I," the source said.

The success of the guided Pinaka has reinforced the technological strength of the country in converting the unguided systems into weapons of high precision, he added.

The guided Pinaka was developed jointly by the Armament Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL), Hyderabad.

The PXE, Chandipur, provided the range and launch support.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 30 May 2018 21:44

I wonder if the Dhanush final trials are over.
And the M777 firing tables using OFB ammo.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vips » 31 May 2018 07:13

The Dhanush hot weather trials were supposed to last for 3-4 weeks, so would not know till mid june.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby JTull » 06 Jun 2018 17:24

Final trials of ‘Dhanush’ underway

Testing of indigenous weapons/artillery is in continuous progression at Pokhran field firing range in Jaisalmer. And this time, first indigenous, long-range artillery gun ‘Dhanush’ (Deshi Bofors) is being tested finally after two years.

Developed by Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) and manufactured by Jabalpur-based Gun Carriage Factory (GCF), the trails of Dhanush have been going on for five years. Earlier, it had faced some major hiccups regarding ammunition used in it. The existing Dhanush can hit target at 38km and the improved version, which has the capacity to hit target at 42 km, is undergoing final trials in Pokhran. After that it will be handed over to the Army.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 06 Jun 2018 21:27

So what is the new improved Dhanush with 42 km range they are talking about? Is it the 52 cal version?
Of just the ERFB/BT shells?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 07 Jun 2018 17:13


A Sharma
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby A Sharma » 08 Jun 2018 05:43

Smerch rockets from Russia hit targets during Pokhran trial

This rocket too will have the feature to change direction after firing. There is agreement between both countries to make this weapon at ordnance factories in India. At the time of war, if army finds that missile has gone in other direction then it can change the direction through remote control. This rocket after getting fired will hit the target at any condition.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 08 Jun 2018 08:31

lets hope army does not ask for 10 major and 133 minor improvements and then Nth round of trials.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby manjgu » 08 Jun 2018 13:30

Nth round of summer winter highalt lowalt underwater tests !!

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ArjunPandit » 08 Jun 2018 14:15

manjgu wrote:Nth round of summer winter highalt lowalt underwater tests !!

Not sure if it has been discussed earlier, but couldnt find it through my search but
1. given that we have both hot and cold environment, can't a more efficient way be designed for concurrent summer/winter testing? If altitude tec is a concern then is it not possible to create controlled chambers for launch
2. And if it is essential to have separate trials, then can't we have horses for courses kind of approach, where guns/specifications tested in summer or hot areas be used for those only.
3. If war were to happen, a less tested gun will always work better than an absent gun
Not to question the judgment of those who are running the program, but we can't have all the lights green before we leave home for a journey. Happy to be corrected

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Manish_P » 08 Jun 2018 14:29



From the link

Last year, the missile missed the target and fell in residential hamlet, so necessary modification were made and lacking were rectified in the missile


Any idea what the problem was? Was it in the missile itself or the targetting and control systems or something else?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby JayS » 08 Jun 2018 16:30

Manish_P wrote:


From the link

Last year, the missile missed the target and fell in residential hamlet, so necessary modification were made and lacking were rectified in the missile


Any idea what the problem was? Was it in the missile itself or the targetting and control systems or something else?


It would have to be waaaay off the mark to have deviated from the target and land all the way in residential area. As every precaution must have been taken to avoid the residential area by a good margin.

MOre interestingly:

Meanwhile, sources said that DRDO is also working on PINAKA Mark-3 multi barrel rocket launcher. PINAKA Mark-2 can hit up to 60 km, whereas updated PINAKA Mark-3 can hit up to 90km and even more. DRDO is planning to develop new rocket with more range than that of Russian-supplied smerch rockets.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Manish_P » 08 Jun 2018 17:03

JayS wrote:It would have to be waaaay off the mark to have deviated from the target and land all the way in residential area. As every precaution must have been taken to avoid the residential area by a good margin.



Exactly that, actually. It's not a new, untested system as such. Neither is the IA inexperienced in rocket artillery. My first instinct was about some glitch/mistake in the targeting but these words intrigued me 'rectified in the missile' Hence i wondered.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 08 Jun 2018 17:19

This glitch has to be one of the reasons why missile testing operations are covered by fire insurance in India.

But imagine if the same glitch manifested in pinaka mk2.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby dinesha » 08 Jun 2018 21:27

Dhanush artillery gun clears final test, ready for induction: Official

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 511167.cms

India's first indigenous, long-range artillery gun "Dhanush" has passed its final test at Pokhran, paving the way for its induction into the Army, a senior official said today.
Between June 2-6, fifty rounds of shells each were fired from six Dhanush guns, Gun Carriage Factory (GCF) Senior General Manager SK Singh told reporters here today.

"Six guns in battery formation (at one go and at one target) successfully fired 101 rounds on June 7," Singh informed.

He said that the GCF got the Dhanush project in October 2011 and the first prototype was made in 2014. Later, 11 more prototypes were made from which 4,200 rounds were fired.

The gun has passed tests under severe cold conditions in Sikkim and Leh and in hot and humid weather in Balasore, Odisha, Babina in Jhansi and in the desert of Pokhran in Rajasthan, Singh said.

He said that during the trial in Pokhran a year ago, the muzzle and barrel of the howitzer exploded two times.

A probe by different Ministry of Defence departments into the two incidents, however, did not find any fault with the gun, Singh said, adding that Dhanush is among the finest artillery guns in terms of accuracy.

It has a strike range of 38 kilometres and 81 per cent of its components are indigenously sourced, the official said.
This, he said, would be scaled up to 90 per cent by 2019.
Singh said that 12 guns would be supplied to the Army in the current fiscal while the total number for the initial phase is 114 guns.

He said that, under an agreement to be inked soon, a total of 414 Dhanush guns would be supplied to the Army.

Manufactured by the Jabalpur-based Gun Carriage Factory (GCF), each of the 155-mm gun costs about Rs 14.50 crore while each shell costs Rs one lakh, a former top official of the factory said.

Besides features like electronic gun-laying and sighting systems, the indigenous gun's hitting range was 11 km more than the imported Bofors guns, he added.

"The Dhanush project has received support and active cooperation from other ordinance factories and PSUs such as SAIL, BEL, and many private sector companies. Their support has made the project a huge success," he said.
The gun has been developed by the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), Kolkata, after going through design documents running into over 12,000 pages.

These documents were given to India as part of the first phase of "Transfer of Technology" (ToT) under the Bofors gun deal inked in the late 1980s, he added.

The Swedish Bofors company (now owned by Britain's BAE System) could not complete the ToT for the 155mm x 39mm calibre howitzer as the deal got embroiled in a major political row over alleged kickbacks.

Subsequently, the OFB struggled for long to produce the howitzer indigenously, he said.

This was despite the fact that it had manufactured and supplied several components and spares to keep the Bofors howitzers operational in India, especially during the Kargil War.

"The Army had been desperately looking for 155mm howitzers for more than three decades. It had roped in an Israeli company, Soltam, to upgrade the imported, Russian-made 130mm gun to 155mm at GCF. But the project, after the upgraded gun's trial, ran into issues of alleged kickbacks," the former official claimed.

Six years ago, the Defence Acquisition Council had decided to look for artillery guns within the country and asked OFB to start manufacturing howitzers.

Towards that end, former Defence Minister A K Antony inaugurated a 155-mm gun manufacturing facility at GCF on September 22, 2012.

According to defence experts, the Army needs a huge number of howitzers of different types, and Indian firms, some in partnership with foreign manufacturers, are in the race to fulfil the demand. COR LAL MAS BNM RT RT

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 08 Jun 2018 23:02

A Sharma wrote:Smerch rockets from Russia hit targets during Pokhran trial

This rocket too will have the feature to change direction after firing. There is agreement between both countries to make this weapon at ordnance factories in India. At the time of war, if army finds that missile has gone in other direction then it can change the direction through remote control. This rocket after getting fired will hit the target at any condition.


Very badly written article. And worse no editing.
Key fact rectified Smerch test fired.
Will decode after going home.


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