Artillery: News & Discussion

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Rupak » 17 Jun 2018 21:31

dinesh_kimar wrote:Per above tweet, pinaka fired 5000 rockets. Might not be true.

M-46 firing only 4000 shells is also hard to believe. Ammo was less expensive than Bofors, and gun is the backbone of Indian Army artillery..


Strictly speaking, the IFG/LFG is the backbone. The M46 was deployed in limited numbers because it cannot achieve the high angle of fire that the FH77 and IFG can. Apart from the the 'Pinaka', the other numbers seem O

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby krishna_krishna » 18 Jun 2018 07:37

Still waiting for any confirmation from official IA sources that they have uber exploited dhanush and gun was found saftisfactory. If there was a flaw they would not stop a second to malign OFB , DRDO and how desi products are crap. But now everything has been completed you see its been ar -junked (Swept under the carpet). It is hard for someone who respects armed forces to see how even after all the tests are not professional owning up and supporting local.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby suryag » 18 Jun 2018 08:35

Folks - pardon me for using this word but despite my consideration for due anxiety by posters i cant stop saying we are quite immature when it comes to dissing armed forces on their acquisitions. Do you expect them to have a project manager send out race/gantt charts every week followed up with a report containing exec summar, highlight and lowlight. Forget about armed forces did GSTN company do that when it was rolling out the GST ? may be a bad example but hope you get the drift.

In the past, yes there were malicious attempts to derail indigenous systems but i believe this has changed considerably now, is it spit polish clean no it isnt but atleast they are on the right path. At the same time, there could be procedural delays when it comes to ordering these items, we should talk about that and see if we can suggest remedies or may be there are mindset problems but attributing everything to malice is not the right way to go.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby SSridhar » 18 Jun 2018 08:58

Dhanush artillery gun clears final trials - Dinakar Peri, The Hindu
The indigenously upgraded artillery gun Dhanush has successfully completed final user trials and is ready for induction into the Army. Dhanush is an upgraded version of the Swedish Bofors gun procured by India in the mid- 1980s.

“This was the third and final phase of user exploitation firings in which six Dhanush guns were fired in battery formation from May 31 to June 7, 2018 at the Pokhran field firing range. A total of 301 rounds were fired from the six guns, including burst fire,” said Dr. Uddipan Mukherjee, public relations officer of the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), in response to a questionnaire from this newspaper.

The first phase of trials were conducted between July and September 2016 at the Pokhran and Babina ranges and the second phase was conducted between October and December 2016 at the Siachen base camp with three guns. A total of 1,520 rounds have been fired in all the three phases.

Tested in all terrains

During the trials, the guns travelled extensively in towed/ self-propelled mode in desert and high-altitude terrains with each gun clocking over 1,000 km, demonstrating their mobility.

Dr. Mukherjee said the next step was the completion of general staff evaluation, after which Bulk Production Clearance (BPC) will be accorded.
The OFB already has an indent from the Army for 114 guns and will start supplying the guns on receipt of the BPC. “The OFB has already supplied six guns for battery firing during the user trials. Another 12 guns will be issued within a year on receipt of the BPC,” he stated.

The entire order of 114 guns is to be delivered within four years. To meet the requirement, the Board has undertaken capacity augmentation to manufacture over 400 barrels and 250 ordnances for large-calibre weapon systems, Dr. Mukherjee said, adding that the OFB was confident of producing eight to 10 guns per month within two to three years. As of now, the gun has over 80% indigenous content. The imported systems include the power pack, parts of the electronic suite, and some seals and bearings.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Gyan » 18 Jun 2018 10:36

Note :- "Next Step"

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 18 Jun 2018 10:53

The barrels are the tough ones.
They can substitute the powerpack engine. The power pack drives an electric generator for the electric drive.
The seals and bearings are being imported from OEM.
We know of the scam for Chinese made roller bearings where the supplier had fake Chinese made bearings passed off as OEM.
The OFB signed an agreement with the OEM who supplied Bofors gun.

The seals are miscellaneous O rings which can be procured anywhere.



So when is the general staff evaluation and the BPC?

Then there is the OFB upgrade to 130mm gun carriage called Sarang. These are also large numbers.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 18 Jun 2018 13:04

I have some trouble with the number of pinaka rounds (5000) fired during kargil war. I have seen image's of BM 21 engaging Pakistani forces. But have yet to come across any image or vidio of pinaka engaging with the enemy.

So could it be that BM21 was mistaken for pinaka? And the same has been carried till this day.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Karan M » 18 Jun 2018 13:12

+100

Guys, have to echo SuryaG.

Its one thing to raise justified concerns, quite another to constantly diss the IA, even before the results are out about any actual malafide intent to delay induction.

Despite OFBs huge errors of commission and omission, IA has given them such a huge chance for the Dhanush and is well justified to protect its troops lives via extensive trials.

Just think, would you have wanted to be the soldier firing a weapon which has had barrel bursts and with OFBs prior issues with QC/QA. Now, by conducting these trials, the IA has done the RIGHT THING by ensuring product quality and I hope they continue to strictly monitor the OFB production.

Please extend them the courtesy of having thought things through and fixing things the right way.

suryag wrote:Folks - pardon me for using this word but despite my consideration for due anxiety by posters i cant stop saying we are quite immature when it comes to dissing armed forces on their acquisitions. Do you expect them to have a project manager send out race/gantt charts every week followed up with a report containing exec summar, highlight and lowlight. Forget about armed forces did GSTN company do that when it was rolling out the GST ? may be a bad example but hope you get the drift.

In the past, yes there were malicious attempts to derail indigenous systems but i believe this has changed considerably now, is it spit polish clean no it isnt but atleast they are on the right path. At the same time, there could be procedural delays when it comes to ordering these items, we should talk about that and see if we can suggest remedies or may be there are mindset problems but attributing everything to malice is not the right way to go.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kakarat » 18 Jun 2018 13:47

Pratyush wrote:I have some trouble with the number of pinaka rounds (5000) fired during kargil war. I have seen image's of BM 21 engaging Pakistani forces. But have yet to come across any image or vidio of pinaka engaging with the enemy.

So could it be that BM21 was mistaken for pinaka? And the same has been carried till this day.


It should be BM21, if i am correct the first regiment of Pinaka was formed only in 2000. But there were reports of Pinaka use in kargil war with help of scientists, I think i have read about it but cant remember correctly

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 18 Jun 2018 13:56

Pinaka was fired in front of Star News(which broke away and became NDTV). Some 20-40 rockets were fired. As per the Army, Pinaka destroyed a Paki Army logistics base in POK. One thing many forget is Pakis also lost lot causualties to our artillery fire across the LOC- not one of those causualties has ever been acknowledged by the Pakis or even those killed by our airstrikes at Muntho DHalo have been acknowleged. Only medal winners on our side of LOC who died directly fighting in hand to hand combat with IA have been acknowleged in 2010- this list itself is 450, so actual Paki causualties in Kargil could be 2500, similarly they never acknowleged thier death toll in Operation Parakram. I guess a fair number of thier soldiers have also met thier 72 after Sep 16.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 18 Jun 2018 14:21

It was also fired with DRDO personal integrated. One of the team member was injured in Pak counter battery on Pinaka.

Obviously this was not done in front of the tv cameras.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 18 Jun 2018 14:33

1) is there a video of the firing in front of star news.

2) let's accept that it was used, but 5000 rounds being fired by it. That almost looks like the weapon is in full scale service.


What am I missing?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby kit » 18 Jun 2018 14:38

Gyan wrote:Note :- "Next Step"


:rotfl:

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 18 Jun 2018 14:45

Here is Youtube video of BM-21 fired during Kargil before STar news Camera s

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Rahul M » 18 Jun 2018 19:43

pinaka was reportedly fired during kargil in 'real life' trials (my terminology, not IA's). I don't think it was a confusion with BM-21 as both were mentioned in the same report. it was reportedly succesful but I do not remember any videos or photos of it. I remember this clearly since I was looking for it, still have a load of newspaper/magazine cuttings from that time. I would be really surprised if the number of rounds fired touched 4figures, even 3 figures would be slightly surprising.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ArjunPandit » 18 Jun 2018 22:49

eriee silence on this front in Media, from Indranil, JayS, and ramana sir nothing after the pic of Uttam. or may be we are too eager. But I would have expected at least SP10 to be ready.
Praying for the best!

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ashish raval » 19 Jun 2018 02:55

SSridhar wrote:Dhanush artillery gun clears final trials - Dinakar Peri, The Hindu
The indigenously upgraded artillery gun Dhanush has successfully completed final user trials and is ready for induction into the Army. Dhanush is an upgraded version of the Swedish Bofors gun procured by India in the mid- 1980s.

“This was the third and final phase of user exploitation firings in which six Dhanush guns were fired in battery formation from May 31 to June 7, 2018 at the Pokhran field firing range. A total of 301 rounds were fired from the six guns, including burst fire,” said Dr. Uddipan Mukherjee, public relations officer of the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), in response to a questionnaire from this newspaper.

The first phase of trials were conducted between July and September 2016 at the Pokhran and Babina ranges and the second phase was conducted between October and December 2016 at the Siachen base camp with three guns. A total of 1,520 rounds have been fired in all the three phases.

Tested in all terrains

During the trials, the guns travelled extensively in towed/ self-propelled mode in desert and high-altitude terrains with each gun clocking over 1,000 km, demonstrating their mobility.

Dr. Mukherjee said the next step was the completion of general staff evaluation, after which Bulk Production Clearance (BPC) will be accorded.
The OFB already has an indent from the Army for 114 guns and will start supplying the guns on receipt of the BPC. “The OFB has already supplied six guns for battery firing during the user trials. Another 12 guns will be issued within a year on receipt of the BPC,” he stated.

The entire order of 114 guns is to be delivered within four years. To meet the requirement, the Board has undertaken capacity augmentation to manufacture over 400 barrels and 250 ordnances for large-calibre weapon systems, Dr. Mukherjee said, adding that the OFB was confident of producing eight to 10 guns per month within two to three years. As of now, the gun has over 80% indigenous content. The imported systems include the power pack, parts of the electronic suite, and some seals and bearings.


4000 guns along the Himalayas and Chinese will not even think of taking a step on this side. Pakis will suffer a heart attack. Two from war sorted, then we can concentrate on killing internal weeds and house.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 19 Jun 2018 04:09

Karan M wrote:+100

Guys, have to echo SuryaG.

Its one thing to raise justified concerns, quite another to constantly diss the IA, even before the results are out about any actual malafide intent to delay induction.
suryag wrote:Folks - pardon me for using this word but despite my consideration for due anxiety by posters i cant stop saying we are quite immature when it comes to dissing armed forces on their acquisitions. Do you expect them to have a project manager send out race/gantt charts every week followed up with a report containing exec summar, highlight and lowlight. Forget about armed forces did GSTN company do that when it was rolling out the GST ? may be a bad example but hope you get the drift.

In the past, yes there were malicious attempts to derail indigenous systems but i believe this has changed considerably now, is it spit polish clean no it isnt but atleast they are on the right path. At the same time, there could be procedural delays when it comes to ordering these items, we should talk about that and see if we can suggest remedies or may be there are mindset problems but attributing everything to malice is not the right way to go.

Absolutely. +100 from me too.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby krishna_krishna » 19 Jun 2018 06:53

Indranil wrote:
Karan M wrote:Absolutely. +100 from me too.


Indranil, Karan M , SuryaG I believe the point is misquoted. I am with you on the trials undertaken by the IA to verify the product for safety and reliability they have every right to do so. Out of all the people in the world I would be last of the people to see unreliable product go into service.

However point I am trying to make is that all the tests have been completed and from what we know from OFB they were successful and you could be sure of that because historically it does not take more than one day of a failed desi product to be the headlines by MOD/Foriegn lobby etc. to project how the desi stuff sucks. Even though desi products have to undergo more crap to prove its worth than foriegn counterpart and argument peddled is that historically foreign maal have been superior and has to be taken at face value. (I can umpteen example of foreign crap inducted and was found unreliable and had to be destroyed or rectified), But that is not my point.

This was an initiative by Genereal VK Singh himself (army) to see and come up with an alternative from nowhere and today it has given /build worldclass capability in artillery building in India. Why not support it and accept it that we have done (IA and OFB)it and we are proud of our Indian product, the pain is not a single tweet from IA/MOD to even acknowledge that and if history is any witness I hate to say this but I see it going Arjun route.Also support you are talking about would not have been possible if leadership (VKS, parrikar etc) stuck to their guns and forced IA to work till this gets done otherwise they do not have any intention of supporting local Mil - Industry and seeing it grow. There is an active lobby in IA/MOD/Ex-servicemens/armed dealers who just do not want India to be self-reliant for the fear that their gravy train will stop.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Karan M » 19 Jun 2018 08:02

KK sir, please take a look at the track record of OFB, it is not like the other DPSUs or DRDO. Huge concerns with QA/QC and hence a degree of caution is warranted, IMHO. ATAGS otoh I would say, accelerate. Having said that, I feel Dhanush will prove itself and its variants will be inducted in number.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 19 Jun 2018 08:10

I have always had trouble understanding this whole concept of the Indian defence procurement. Of having 2 seperate lines of products that meet broadly similar requirements. One is atags the other is 45 Cal Dhanush. When atags is in advanced stages of trials. Then why spend money on a product that is not as capable as the Atags.

I mean amount of available money is constant. So why split it in 2 seperate products. Why not focus on a single product and increase it numbers.

And please don't give me the contrived answer that Dhanush will have a different application as compared to atags. As both are 155 mm gun's.

We also don't know if Dhanush can be upgraded to 52 cal.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby manjgu » 19 Jun 2018 10:11

@pratyush a) M777 ...Dhanush ... Atags are different guns with perhaps different roles / area of operations envisaged for them. I dont think IA is so dumb. Dhanush is an improvement on the original Bofors. Dhanush costing 14 to 16 crores a piece can be crowdfunded for induction into IA :rotfl: I mean what better testing than being put into actual use at the border. b) i also agree that local desi products have to prove themselves again and again. c) we are fighting a battle of attrition with the Pakis on the border ... inspite of being 7 to 10 times bigger def budget we are not inflicting enough pain on the enemy. Artillery ( other than infantry) being the only instrument with which we can inflict pain has been neglected big time. All our fancy jets, ships are getting old sitting out of the real action. Any sensible policy would have made Artillery arm world class and something which the Pakis would fear and which we should have used against the Pakis

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby mody » 19 Jun 2018 18:06

Pratyush wrote:I have always had trouble understanding this whole concept of the Indian defence procurement. Of having 2 seperate lines of products that meet broadly similar requirements. One is atags the other is 45 Cal Dhanush. When atags is in advanced stages of trials. Then why spend money on a product that is not as capable as the Atags.

I mean amount of available money is constant. So why split it in 2 seperate products. Why not focus on a single product and increase it numbers.

And please don't give me the contrived answer that Dhanush will have a different application as compared to atags. As both are 155 mm gun's.

We also don't know if Dhanush can be upgraded to 52 cal.


ATAGS is expected to be ready for mass production and induction into IA only around 2021-22. We cannot wait for 155 mm arty guns till then.
Ideally Dhanush should have entered production 2-3 years ago and by next year the order for 114 guns would have been finished and the trials for Dhanush-52 would have also been close to finishing. The plan was for 414 Dhanush guns, followed by ATAGS.

The plan is still the same. For Dhanush the first 114 guns will be Dhanush-45 and the next 300 can be Dhanush-52, if the 52 caliber guns perform as expected.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 19 Jun 2018 18:18

Pratyush wrote:
And please don't give me the contrived answer that Dhanush will have a different application as compared to atags. As both are 155 mm gun's.



Weight requirements. Similar to how M777 is different from Dhanush. ATAGS with all the bells and whistle will not come close to Dhanush in weight category.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 19 Jun 2018 18:26

Just an anecdote about WW1, which I have been reading.

A German offensive force with 2000 artillery guns. made the Russians loose all their 8 months of gains and ended with close to 1.5 million Russian POW.
This includes capturing Warsaw.

The Russians were on the verge of defeating Austrian army and they had to send send an SOS to German for help. German put together a offensive force.

The power of artillery.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ArjunPandit » 19 Jun 2018 18:30

^^Nam , which battle?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 19 Jun 2018 20:39

nam wrote:
Pratyush wrote:
And please don't give me the contrived answer that Dhanush will have a different application as compared to atags. As both are 155 mm gun's.



Weight requirements. Similar to how M777 is different from Dhanush. ATAGS with all the bells and whistle will not come close to Dhanush in weight category.


How is the weight differential between Dhanush and atags material. I can understand the M777 is a 4 ton weapon. But when it comes to a 12 + ton gun pulled by a 20 ton tractor. How does the weight makes a difference.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 19 Jun 2018 21:09

ArjunPandit wrote:^^Nam , which battle?


Gorlice–Tarnów Offensive by Field Marshall August von Mackensen

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 19 Jun 2018 21:11

Pratyush wrote:
nam wrote:
Weight requirements. Similar to how M777 is different from Dhanush. ATAGS with all the bells and whistle will not come close to Dhanush in weight category.


How is the weight differential between Dhanush and atags material. I can understand the M777 is a 4 ton weapon. But when it comes to a 12 + ton gun pulled by a 20 ton tractor. How does the weight makes a difference.


In the mountains, it makes a difference. Pulling a 20 tons ATAGS vs 12/13 ton Dhanush over mountain gradients makes a difference.

Most of our Western & Eastern front is mountains.

Another point ATAGS is probably going to be the base for our future artillery design. I am pretty sure we will be bring out a 55/57 caliber ATAGS.You can see that the platform has been designed for TFTA calibers.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nachiket » 19 Jun 2018 23:25

IA is facing a huge shortfall of modern artillery. Whatever they are inducting now should be cheered, doubly so if it is indigenous. There is no reason to have a "Why Dhanush when ATAGS is round the corner?" debate.

Secondly, ATAGS is still in trials and its induction may be delayed if IA cannot compromise on weight. It will also be more expensive than Dhanush. IA has enough requirement for both guns. CUrrent order for Dhanush is merely 114. Even if the IA buys 414 Dhanush as envisaged, that would only serve to replace the ~400 Bofors already in service and getting old. But IA needs a big increase in total medium artillery holdings. ATAGS can provide that.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 19 Jun 2018 23:48

Another lurking concern will be logistics.
ATAGS range doesn't come free. It's large chamber volume requires more charges to propel it. I think 6 charges vs 4 for Dhanush. And this will add to the logistics trail.

So once weight issue is solved some bright procedures person will bring this up for further delays.


All this comes from way requirements are flowed down and final acceptance is accomplished. Both are completely different teams.
We saw this time and again. The acceptance team giving suggestions which are hidden requirements and moving on. When the design agency brings the test article further improvements are piled on.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby manjgu » 20 Jun 2018 07:53

almost 200 bofors of the total imported are decommissioned IMHO...

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 20 Jun 2018 09:32

Barrel wear?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby manjgu » 20 Jun 2018 09:54

i dont know the cause but almost half of the inventory is down... as per my info.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 20 Jun 2018 11:30

Yes I too heard. OFB was rebarreling and making some spares to keep them going. Ideally you want steady production and phase out the older guns. I wonder if the 414 order for Dhanush is Bofors. replacement? Numbers are about the same. Also note OFB mentioning barrels about 400.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 20 Jun 2018 11:31

Would you know how many Bofors were used at Kargil in all sectors?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby dinesha » 20 Jun 2018 12:32

Army is likely to take a decision soon on whether to conduct summer trials on the ATAGS offered by the Kalyani group.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 591932.cms

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Arun.prabhu » 20 Jun 2018 15:48

You don’t spread artillery out. You use it enmasse. You don’t keep it at the border. You keep artillery formations further back. Moving artillery units to the border usually means that army is making final preparations for war.

ashish raval wrote:
SSridhar wrote:Dhanush artillery gun clears final trials - Dinakar Peri, The Hindu


4000 guns along the Himalayas and Chinese will not even think of taking a step on this side. Pakis will suffer a heart attack. Two from war sorted, then we can concentrate on killing internal weeds and house.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby dinesha » 20 Jun 2018 16:58

Solar Industries India partners Eurenco for major artillery tender
The two firms will bid jointly for a forthcoming multi-billion dollar Indian tender to manufacture artillery propellants
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 905_1.html

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vips » 20 Jun 2018 18:16

dinesha wrote:Army is likely to take a decision soon on whether to conduct summer trials on the ATAGS offered by the Kalyani group.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 591932.cms


If the Winter trials were for both the TATA and Kalyani group guns, then why is the army giving the impression that it will do summer trials only for Kalyani group guns?


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