Artillery: News & Discussion

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darshhan
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby darshhan » 25 Oct 2018 10:16

ramana wrote:SudeepJ said:

In the Indian case, if we can elongate the ATAGs barrel by a couple of meters to take full advantage of the larger chamber, or alternatively devise better shells to achieve (say) 70-80kms range, a regiment can take over the role of providing CAS to a division. Cheaper, organic, faster ... Most importantly, all technological components are already available.


Longer barrels will restrict deployment to plains only as mountain roads sharp curves won't make the bends.
The goal seems to be to deliver useful punch at long distance. i suggest to develop the BB/BT motor with better propellant as start. then change the motor length.

How about some one digs up what is the specific impulse of the rocket motor sued in the BB/BT motors?
And the chemical composition.
One picture of ATAGS had black smoke indicating a carbon based compound.


plus the longer barrels would be susceptible to bending during transportation

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 25 Oct 2018 11:44

Lets get the some 155mm in numbers then we can think of special units.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 25 Oct 2018 21:00

Picklu Thanks. Yes you are right. What I wanted was the RAP not the drag reduction unit.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Picklu » 26 Oct 2018 04:48

ramana wrote:Picklu Thanks. Yes you are right. What I wanted was the RAP not the drag reduction unit.

Don't think we have any RAP in our inventory to test/reverse engineer.
Developing a RAP ab initio would be a major project; the test data required to develop a rocket motor that can withstand a gun launch and still perform accurately is not available to us and no such research is ongoing per open source.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Gyan » 26 Oct 2018 13:49

IIRC we initially imported RAP with Bofors gun and BB came later. RAP is costly, decreases explosive content & also decreases accuracy. BB is cheaper & increases accuracy. Now new thing is RAP + BB. Fired from longer tubes in JK we can reach 70-80km range.

But what would be the purpose? At 80km CEP of 500-1000m does it make sense? Why not use MBRL?

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 27 Oct 2018 04:49

Gyan very good thinking. Couple with PGK error correcting fuze for 10m CEP.
Picklu, In that BB unit the holes are angled to give spin. Suppose they are made conical then then it gives nozzle effect to add thrust with same propellant
If any one has a cad program we can draw up the concept.

Image

the unit has 12 angled straight holes at 30 degree interval.
so lets have 8 holes with divergent nozzles at 45 degree intervals. (360/8= 45)
This way all the materials are all qualified.
Next iteration have higher Isp Propellant.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 27 Oct 2018 05:33

Looks like its already done by Serbia!!!!

http://www.yugoimport.com/en/proizvodi/ ... base-bleed

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Gyan » 27 Oct 2018 09:20

Cost of firing 155mm artillery round with 6kg explosive content in forged steel body using RAP, BB, PGK FUZE, propellant, towed artillery, shoot scoot, self protection etc

Vs

Cost of firing a GPS GUIDED MBRL with 100kg warhead filled with tungsten pellets & explosive content of 50kg

Is MBRL still a Corps level weapon? Yes No? Why? Cold start anyone?

Vs Cost of Excalibur type shell

Vs Cost of Kraspanol type shell

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby JTull » 27 Oct 2018 14:21

Defence Ministry signs Rs 200 crore contract to upgun 130 mm howitzers

Image

In a significant yet cost-effective boost to the Indian Army’s firepower, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has placed a Rs 200 crore order on the state-owned Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) for upgunning the Indian Army’s vintage 130 mm M-46 artillery guns. Significantly, the OFB won the contract in competition with two foreign vendors and their Indian partners.

Fifteen regiments comprising 300 towed artillery pieces will be upgraded to the 155/45 mm calibre in the contract signed between the state-owned Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) and MoD in South Block on October 25. All upgraded guns will be supplied to the Indian Army by 2022.

The upgrade will replace the barrel and breech block and add new sighting systems and a new hydraulic rammer to ease loading of shells. OFB officials term the up-gunning 100 per cent indigenous and a highly cost-effective solution to augment the Army’s firepower. The Sharang upgrade kit costs less than Rs 70 lakh per gun, or less than one-fifth the cost of a brand new towed field artillery piece. The Army had floated an RFP in 2013 to upgun 300 of its M-46 guns. The Army has close to 1000 of the 130 mm guns that were acquired from the former Soviet Union beginning in 1968.

The OFB offer emerged the cheapest edging out contenders from two foreign competitors, a consortium of Punj Lloyd and Yugo Import and Bharat Forge and Soltam. The OFB fully indigenous solution the Sharang’ (Vishnu’s bow) field howitzer bested its competitor in various performance parameters during Field Evaluation Trials at the Pokhran range. The parameters include maximum range, direct fire, the rate of fire, accuracy and consistency made it the only compliant gun after the completion of trials. The gun repeated its performance in the second round of re-confirmatory trials at Pokharan in January this year.

OFB officials say the upgrade not only increases the M-46’s range from the existing 27 km to 39 km but also its lethality (fragmentation pattern) by over 300 per cent. A 155 mm shell has 8 kg of TNT whereas a 130 mm shell that has 3.4 kg of TNT.

Sharang has a combat weight of 8.4 tonnes and a length and width of 11.84 metres and 2.45 metres. The 7 metre-long barrel has a single baffle muzzle brake and horizontal sliding wedge breech block. A semi-automatic operating device enables auto opening of the gun breech and a pneumatic ramming system eases the load on the gun crew who have to ram the projectile in during firing. The gun was developed by the Ordnance Development Centre, Kanpur and produced at the Ordnance Factory Kanpur.

The Army currently has around 180 of the 155 mm field guns that were upgraded by Israeli firm Soltam under Project Karan in 2008. OFB officials say the contract opens up an avenue for them to explore the gun’s export potential.

Correction: An earlier version of this report said the Sharang upgrade kit costs a little over Rs 1 crore per gun. It has been corrected to "costs less than Rs 70 lakh per gun". The error is regretted.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 27 Oct 2018 14:39

The hydraulic rammer must have come from the Dhanush program.

Dhanush & ATAGS has changed the artillery landscape in India and to imagine we sat on the Bofors blueprints for decades!

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 27 Oct 2018 14:53

nam wrote:The hydraulic rammer must have come from the Dhanush program.

Dhanush & ATAGS has changed the artillery landscape in India and to imagine we sat on the Bofors blueprints for decades!



The penumatic flick rammer has existed since the soltam gun upgrade of the early 2000s.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 27 Oct 2018 15:06

Alright, thanks for the correction.

Hope they upgrade up to 500 or more of them.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Picklu » 27 Oct 2018 20:41

My understanding is that the bofors blueprints were not complete. The proper ToT for the Breech Block were held back. This is similar to what Suzuki does with gearbox, does not allow Maruthi to cut the umbilical chord.

We got the relevant breech technology from Yehudi land via Soltam upgrade.

Dhanush took off after that with mix and match.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 28 Oct 2018 03:26

nam wrote:Alright, thanks for the correction.

Hope they upgrade up to 500 or more of them.


Yes at 70 Lakhs per gun it is a super economical upgrade to 155MM. No need to just stop at 300 guns.If all the guns are upgraded It will mean less headache in terms of logistics for the army. Ideally now should just have two types of Guns: 105 MM mounted on trucks to care of the niche needs and the heavy 155 type across the tracked, mounted, towed and ULH versions.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 28 Oct 2018 05:15

Also it gives a chance to innovate further.
You can't innovate what you don't make.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 28 Oct 2018 05:33

Gyan wrote:Cost of firing 155mm artillery round with 6kg explosive content in forged steel body using RAP, BB, PGK FUZE, propellant, towed artillery, shoot scoot, self protection etc

Vs

Cost of firing a GPS GUIDED MBRL with 100kg warhead filled with tungsten pellets & explosive content of 50kg

Is MBRL still a Corps level weapon? Yes No? Why? Cold start anyone?

Vs Cost of Excalibur type shell

Vs Cost of Kraspanol type shell


Gyan a 155mm shell weighs 43 kg and has ~6 kg explosive. Costs about $2K. Add $10k for fuze. This gives 10m CEP.
Two shells is under $44k.

Lets compare to MBRL?

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby JTull » 28 Oct 2018 08:45

155mm shell has 8kg of explosive as per above 130mm upgunning article

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Gyan » 28 Oct 2018 09:01

There is cost of other things also. I don't have exact figures but estimates per round:-

BB USD 1000
RAP USD 1000
Propellant USD 1000
Depreciation of Howitzer USD 1000 to 2000
Less versatility and slower strategic mobility, lesser footprint, lesser range hence better counter fire resources are required to defend, estimates ?

So firing one GPS 155 Round cost is USD 15000 to deliver 6kg explosives upto 60km

Firing one GPS GUIDED MBRL round delivers 50kg explosives in optimised 100kg warhead with tungestan pellets upto 70-90km at cost of USD 100,000/- per round.

IIRC MBRL can also store ten times the bomblets, mines compared to 155mm shell or even fuel air explosives.

Excalibur is USD 50 to 100,000/-
Kraspanol is USD 50 to 75,000/- for 6-10kg explosives.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby dhyana » 28 Oct 2018 09:40

Excalibur is USD 50 to 100,000/-
Kraspanol is USD 50 to 75,000/- for 6-10kg explosives.

:shock:

Had no idea that artillery could be this expensive. But the figures quoted are similar to that given by former artillerymen:

What is the cost of an artillery round
Due to the low rate of production, the XM982 Excalibur rounds is costing us tax payers us tax payers $140,000.00 each.

Most conventional Artillery rounds are costing around $1000.00 each.

Those numbers would be for the M777 Howitzer.

So smaller caliber would cost incrementally less for conventional rounds.


MBRL starts making more sense?

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Gyan » 28 Oct 2018 10:09

Unguided Pinaka 2 round is around USD 35000. In my view, with mass production unguided MBRL round will cost USD 20,000 & Guided round USD 50,000.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 28 Oct 2018 10:17

As already noted the er guided rounds are suitable for murican style firebases with v22/chinook/c130 resupply to fire on small agile targets located by drones or to support patrols under attack
Low number of rounds and less collareral risk

Since we dont do that mode of warfare we can use cheaper alternatives

Guided pinaka can also be fired in single shot mode if we want to

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 28 Oct 2018 12:55

Logistics?

Why are we still inducting non rocket arty?

What is our deployment of rocket arty i.e. where is it most suitable - can we completely replace regular arty?


If we dont address these questions then this is just khayali pulao!!!
Last edited by ks_sachin on 28 Oct 2018 13:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 28 Oct 2018 13:13

What nonsence...dont betray a lack of critical thinking with these red herrings!!

Note: i dont say you are wrong but explore why we have the holdings we have...

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Gyan » 28 Oct 2018 13:25

You started this mischief by Rhetorical nonsense,. Now don't try to act high and mighty. I did not make any remark against imports as all Dalal lovers get all antsy. You are intentionally trying to derail the thread. I understand this argument, Generals know everything, so don't discuss any issue especially what may impact potential imports.

High caliber 155mm Artillery is not ALL Artillery

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 28 Oct 2018 13:50

Yes i did because these are not rhetorical questions and nothing to do with imports.

You make stupid blanket statements like dalals decide procurement what do you expect...

But if your knowgedle of arty is like your knowledge of small arms then i will call this out. The generals probably know better...

But if you get rid of the chip on your shoulder you would realise that cost is one factor in weapons doctrine and see where I was going...

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby brar_w » 28 Oct 2018 17:39

dhyana wrote:Due to the low rate of production, the XM982 Excalibur rounds is costing us tax payers us tax payers $140,000.00 each.


Think of the XM982 as a sniper round that is used in danger close situations (due to its < 4 m CEP at all ranges) where without it artillery would not be able to provide support or for other needs where it might be more suited (different angle of attack for example in the ES mode). It is not a replacement for anything but an additional capability.

Given its special case use, we can leave the XM982 out for now and focus on Ramana's cost comparison using PGK as it is a better indicator for the true cost of the overwhelming majority of your precision guided artillery rounds. I guess you could add some additional cost to that for the RAP round on which you add your PGK (assuming that you would need to procure RAP rounds to get extended range).

Comparison between Medium-Long range artillery rounds and guided or unguided MLR's has to assume targets against which both munition types would work. No point in discussing targets against which you need much higher firepower that comes with MLRS or your short ranged ballistic missiles. However, if you do think that there are targets out there that your artillery can threaten with these shells, at an affordable cost, then it really complicates the enemy calculus when it has to take into account that you can reach medium to long distances with multiple weapon types and with high accuracy. It forces the enemy to either invest in defenses, or be constantly mobile etc.

For PGK we are using the US procurement cost data (roughly $8500 URF per M1156 kit) since that kit is in production and is being mass produced at the highest rate. Adding $5000 in additional costs for the RAP round and the other misc. items you get to a cost of $13,500 per round. I am not very familiar with the worldwide market/production of guided MRL systems but in the US, GMLRS costs roughly $130K per round for a annual procurement of around 6500 rounds in 2018 (US Army budgets). I guess you could bring the cost down further if you upped production to a 1000+ a month as long as there is demand. However, on the other side there are costs that are being added to the guidance section as things like MCode and other enhancements are required to make the weapon more resilient in GPS contested environments so you may not get it down to 5 digits $ at least in the US and given its production rate.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 28 Oct 2018 21:38

ks_sachin wrote:Yes i did because these are not rhetorical questions and nothing to do with imports.

You make stupid blanket statements like dalals decide procurement what do you expect...

But if your knowgedle of arty is like your knowledge of small arms then i will call this out. The generals probably know better...

But if you get rid of the chip on your shoulder you would realise that cost is one factor in weapons doctrine and see where I was going...

To lighten mood, Sachin are you ex services? Your no nonsense attitude made me feel so

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 29 Oct 2018 23:05

Latest ATAGS trials started at Pokhran on Saturday and will continue for 5 Days. Report that it will be tested to hit targets at 50 to 60 Kms. :)

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 29 Oct 2018 23:47

Vips, Thanks. that kind of ends the RAP discussion!

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 30 Oct 2018 00:14

Vips wrote:Latest ATAGS trials started at Pokhran on Saturday and will continue for 5 Days. Report that it will be tested to hit targets at 50 to 60 Kms. :)

That is awesome news. WOW! Thanks Vips!

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 30 Oct 2018 00:15

If you drag the picture below into a new window, you can see it bigger (in all its glory!)...

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1056155227978530816 ---> Well, India's Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) has signed a contract with the Ministry of Defence for the upgunning of 300 M-46 130mm field guns to a 155mm/45 caliber standard called Sharang. OFB's solution was the only one that passed muster in trials. Courtesy: OFB

Image

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 30 Oct 2018 00:18

Sharang upgrade kit video....from March 2018...


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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 30 Oct 2018 00:18

Defence Ministry signs Rs 200 crore contract to up gun 130mm howitzers
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/d ... 2018-10-26

In a significant yet cost-effective boost to the Indian Army’s firepower, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has placed a Rs 200 crore order on the state-owned Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) for up-gunning the Indian Army’s vintage 130mm M-46 artillery guns.


The Sharang upgrade kit costs less than Rs 75 lakh per gun, or less than one-fifth the cost of a brand new towed field artillery piece. (Below) Sharang during a firing trial at Pokharan.

Image

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 30 Oct 2018 00:23

https://twitter.com/Aryanwarlord/status ... 8612254721 ---> More wins for Make In India - Defence as artillery Sharang (picture below), OFB LMG & JVPC are inducted into the Indian Army.

Image

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 30 Oct 2018 00:24

https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/1056209212940869632 ---->

India's near future, some artillery systems:-

- M777: 30 km (40 km possible)
- Sharang: 36 km
- Dhanush: 38 km
- ATAGS: 47-48 km +
- K9 Vajra T: 30-42 km (55 km possible)
- Smerch: 70-90 km
- Pinaka: 40-120 km

Besides, new indigenous ULH , MGS and SPH are also coming.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 30 Oct 2018 00:26

https://twitter.com/IndianDefenceRA/sta ... 6863506432 ----> OFB to upgrade 300 Russian made 130mm M-46 artillery guns to 155mm/45 caliber “Sharang” artillery guns. This upgraded artillery weighs 8.4 tons.

Image

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 30 Oct 2018 00:28

Rakesh,
Thanks for putting all the Sharang news in one place. When we last heard in march 2018, the OFB was waiting for the contract to be awarded. Now they can get busy making the conversions.
IA should prioritize the remaining 800 M-46s for the upgrade program and task the OFB to convert the 130mm shell line to 155mm shells.

I would like update about the BEL Pune electronic fuze output.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Kartik » 30 Oct 2018 00:46

Great news on the Sharang contract being signed. But why just for 300 guns? What'll happen to the remaining 500 odd guns that were acquired but not upgraded by Soltam for Project Karan?

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 30 Oct 2018 00:48

Thanks Ramana-ji. I came across Sandeep Saar's article on the Sharang on twitter and then I did a twitter search for Sharang and all wonderful gems of info and pics came out. Then I twitter blasted all the tweets in here. I find twitter to be better than google news in that respect.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 30 Oct 2018 00:51

Kartik (and Ramana-ji): My hunch is that 300 is just the initial upgrade batch. I have a feeling that the Army wants to see how OFB performs with the upgrade and will then decide on the remaining guns. I hope OFB does a bang-up job, because Dhanush is also from their stables. I would rather not hear sob stories about delays, cost over-runs, labour issues, etc, etc, etc. A lot is riding - for OFB - on this upgrade.


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