Artillery: News & Discussion

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Indranil » 10 Nov 2018 02:10

dinesh_kimar wrote:The Soltam upgunned 155 mm had frequent barrel bursts, so no repeat order given to Soltam after the initial 180 kits.

The OFB fixed the Soltam barrel problem using Bofors barrel tech, at the Army' s request.

The Sarang looks the same, but has superior barrel.

The army had competitive trials with Soltam, Punj Lloyd's Yugo import and OFB Sarang, and decided that OFB offered the best solution.

There was a video here where the OFB official said very nonchalantly that the Soltam solution did not even come close.


Found it. Go to 5:15 point.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 10 Nov 2018 02:26


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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby abhik » 10 Nov 2018 22:48

An interesting paper from 2006
Did the Marine Corps Fix Fires or Save an Airframe
The weapon system has a displacement issue when firing high
charges (7 White, 7 Red, 8 Super and Modular Artillery
Charge System (MACS) equivalents). There are two types of
displacement: Lateral and Longitudinal. Of greatest
concern is the lateral displacement. When the howitzer
fires a high charge at a low quadrant with the deflection
greater than 100 mils off center, the weapon will begin
displacing laterally. This causes the cannoneer to
traverse the weapon more and more with each round fired
until he reaches the mechanical traverse limits of the gun.
The crew is then required to speed shift the gun back onto
the azimuth of fire to continue the mission. This causes a
delay of about two minutes in the mission. Longitudinal
displacement is of less concern because the weapon can
continue the mission without worry of reaching the
mechanical limits.

Because of the requirements placed on the development of
the M777 by the Osprey, a number of capabilities were left out.
First, the system was developed without a hydraulic position
ascending component (HYPAC). A HYPAC is a hydraulic system that
lifts the howitzer from its firing position onto the wheels.
Under the current design, a Marine must manually pump each side
of the howitzer onto the wheel. This process takes about forty
to fifty seconds. Also, when moving and shifting, the crew
experiences unnecessary fatigue, which causes a delay in
displacement. There is no HYPAC because of weight and cost
restrictions.15 A HYPAC would have decreased displacement times
and lessened crew fatigue. The standard table of organization
(T/O) is ten men per howitzer. Due to manpower shortfalls, a
typical battery only has seven to eight men on each howitzer.
When the weapon is employed with less than the standard crew the
emplacement and displacement times increase. With the addition
of a HYPAC, the system would be more responsive.
The auto ramming system was the first item cut from the
M777 howitzer when the weight restriction was imposed.16 This
system would have rammed the projectile into the tube quicker
and more uniformly then the current method. Currently two men
must use a ramming staff to seat the round in the tube. Through
training the crew is able to develop the necessary technique to
ram the projectiles properly. However as the crew becomes
fatigued, the rams become weaker, and the chance of a firing
incident increases. An auto ramming system would have increased
responsiveness and lessened crew fatigue. A uniform ram also
increases the accuracy of the weapon. The projectile would
always have a tight seal in the tube and prevent blow by. Blow
by is a cause for a short or erratic round. Although, the M198
and the M777 are both hand rammed, the addition of an auto
rammer to the M777 would have lessened the risk of short rounds.
An auto ramming system coupled with a heavier tube would
have allowed an increase in the rate of fire of the M777.17 The
current maximum rate of fire for the M777 is four rounds per
minute for two minutes.18 After the initial two minutes the crew
can sustain a rate of two rounds per minute.19 A T/O crew is
capable of achieving eight rounds per minute.20 The maximum rate
of fire is based on the tube thickness. A thicker tube does not
heat up as quickly as a thin tube. The maximum rate of fire
would have been increased by both rounds per minute and minutes
at the maximum rate if a thicker tube was used. The current
tube has been reduced to save weight.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby brar_w » 11 Nov 2018 00:38

^ The Marine's have a very specific requirement for their systems and a larger driver of their decision making is the ability to get form ship to shore using their organic lift capability along with the standard deployment methods. This is a requirement they put on almost of all of their tactical systems, be it high performance AESA radars, or tactical vehicles like the JLTV required to support Artillery or Air defense units.

Claiming that an operator should not focus on the ability of its most vital theater transport asset to move its "mobile" artillery is like saying that the US Army should not focus on the deployability of their assets vis-a-vis the number of C-130 or C-17 loads because that puts a burden on performance. You can relax those requirements if you expect to always fight without needing deployment both into a theater and within it. The USMC does not have that choice as expeditionary warfare puts its own set of restrictions on weapon system characteristics and performance.

The changes demanded in the article are more applicable to the US Army and the way it uses its Triple sevens and many of those (pertaining to extending range, accuracy at range, and rate of fire) are being funded or in the pipeline under the ERCA and other programs. But they too would want at least some of their M777 or M777 replacement to be air-deployable using the Chinook's.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 11 Nov 2018 02:49

Can someone kindly explain the drill process that I see all Indian gunners doing? There is obviously some logic to this, but I have not seen this in other artillery crews from the world or perhaps I just have not noticed.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby la.khan » 11 Nov 2018 07:27

Rakesh wrote:Can someone kindly explain the drill process that I see all Indian gunners doing? There is obviously some logic to this, but I have not seen this in other artillery crews from the world or perhaps I just have not noticed.

Are you referring to the weird 'dance' like thing going on, especially the guys who pick up the artillery shells and hand them over the loading crew? When the army inducted M777s & Vajra K9s recently, I noticed the same. I hope it is limited to formal ceremonies when VIPs are in attendance, not on the field/front/border.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 11 Nov 2018 09:16

Guys, enough OT. Khalil had an objection, dinesh clarified. No more.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby prasannasimha » 11 Nov 2018 09:38

I have cleaned up unnecessary discussion.
Moderator

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 11 Nov 2018 18:41

la.khan wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Can someone kindly explain the drill process that I see all Indian gunners doing? There is obviously some logic to this, but I have not seen this in other artillery crews from the world or perhaps I just have not noticed.

Are you referring to the weird 'dance' like thing going on, especially the guys who pick up the artillery shells and hand them over the loading crew? When the army inducted M777s & Vajra K9s recently, I noticed the same. I hope it is limited to formal ceremonies when VIPs are in attendance, not on the field/front/border.

Yes that only. There has to be some logic to this.

I tried Google, but nothing came up. Thus I asked. Hopefully, somebody knows the answer.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 11 Nov 2018 18:55

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1060787878043635712 ---> Credit should really be due to former Director General of Artillery, Lt General Anjan Mukherjee who backed key artillery indigenization programmes like the Dhanush and ATAGS in the second decade of the 21st century.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1060789124381036544 ---> Currently, DRDO's ATAGS is the only system in India that can use BMCS Zone 7 effectively to reach 45 plus km ranges with ERFB-Base Bleed ammunition. No 'import' comes close. ATAGS also has superior MRSI capability.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 11 Nov 2018 19:01

Rakesh wrote:Yes that only. There has to be some logic to this.

I tried Google, but nothing came up. Thus I asked. Hopefully, somebody knows the answer.


Apparently the drill is during a ceremony/demo or if discipline is required during a process. There re videos in youtube of dhanush doing 3 round testing. No such drill is carried out.

There was a comment on twitter by ex-IA general, where he said during a setup of BM in one of the rocket regiment, the "civilians" present took their own sweet time. He immediately set up a drill to install discipline! :D

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 11 Nov 2018 19:12

Aah okay. Thanks Nam.

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 6988453888 ---> Giving credit where its due. The revival of Indian artillery - Dhanush, K-9, M-777 is all thanks to Manohar Parrikar and a series of fine DG Artys, like Lt General Palepu Ravi Shankar (Retd). Reup of my 2016 story tracking the revival, roadmap and key decisions.

Exorcising the ghost of Bofors
https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/the- ... 2016-11-24

The Indian army is set to acquire its first howitzers in three decades and restart a long-delayed artillery modernisation program.


Please visit Lt General Palepu Ravi Shankar's (Retd) twitter feed ---> https://twitter.com/palepurshankar

Lots of excellent tweets, links (articles by him and others) and very nice info....lots to read and learn!

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 11 Nov 2018 19:14

Modernization of Artillery – A Review of Success
http://indiandefenceindustries.in/moder ... of-success

By Lt General Palepu Ravi Shankar (Retd)

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 11 Nov 2018 19:21

What is the lesson to learn here from the spectacular success of Indian Artillery programs? When the end user is involved, product development is that much more clearly defined and the product achieves the desired outcomes.

Kudos to Lt General Palepu Ravi Shankar, Lt General Anjan Mukherjee and other DGs of Artillery who supported Indian Artillery programs. Your vision has paid off. Thank You Sirs! Jai Hind!

DGs of Armoured Corps, please take note :)

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 11 Nov 2018 19:25

Just for the records:

145 M77, 100 K9, 300 upgraded M46, 414 Dhanush, 1800-2000 ATAGS, 800 MGS

That is up to 3800 155MM guns in the pipeline and planned !

3800, not even considering that M777, K9 & M46 numbers may go up.

We will be flattening places WW1 style.

Massive is an under statement.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 11 Nov 2018 19:27

+108 nam! +108!!!

Lt General Palepu Ravi Shankar echoes the same thing you said above!

https://twitter.com/palepurshankar/stat ... 7445260288 ---> Fifteen 130mm gun regiments upgunned to 155mm. Five K9 plus seven M777 regiments. Total additional 27. Dhanush lined up. Awesome Artillery by 2022. Enemies beware. Devastating firepower ahead.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 11 Nov 2018 19:29

Rakesh wrote:DGs of Armoured Corps, please take note :)


India's Second Army is the only one now holding off. Once breached, our Land System indigenous will be complete.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby la.khan » 11 Nov 2018 22:49

nam wrote:Just for the records:
145 M77, 100 K9, 300 upgraded M46, 414 Dhanush, 1800-2000 ATAGS :eek: , 800 MGS :eek:

nam ji, are the numbers for ATAGS & MGS confirmed orders IA placed with manufacturers (OFB?)? Any URLs for this? IA consistently places orders for guns in the lower hundreds (< 150). These may be trial orders, to see if OFB/DPSUs can deliver promised numbers, on budget and on time and quality.

I don't recollect seeing IA place such huge orders for artillery. If IA can induct 200-300 new 155 mm guns per year :twisted:, that will still be awesome for a force starved of new guns for the last 30 years :evil:

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 11 Nov 2018 22:53

la.khan wrote:
nam wrote:Just for the records:
145 M77, 100 K9, 300 upgraded M46, 414 Dhanush, 1800-2000 ATAGS :eek: , 800 MGS :eek:

nam ji, are the numbers for ATAGS & MGS confirmed orders IA placed with manufacturers (OFB?)? Any URLs for this? IA consistently places orders for guns in the lower hundreds (< 150). These may be trial orders, to see if OFB/DPSUs can deliver promised numbers, on budget and on time and quality.

:


Those numbers are according to Artillery Long term perspective plan, which was made public out a decade ago.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 11 Nov 2018 23:05

That was part of FARP (Field Artillery Rationalization Program). IIRC, FARP was of 2000 vintage. Rohit Vats or someone else had some posts for it in BRF. Will try to find out and post. Here's what i found through Google.

http://www.spslandforces.com/story/?id= ... ure-Status

Some quotes

The alarming state of voids resulted in the evolvement of Field Artillery Rationalization Plan (FARP) in 2000 As part of FARP, 155mm calibre was made the standard gun system for Indian Artillery


These include 1,580 towed gun systems (TGS), 814 mounted gun systems (MGS), 100 self-propelled howitzers (SPHs) and 145 BAE Systems M777 155 mm/39 calibre lightweight howitzers for the mountains. Expect for M777, all other gun systems were of 155mm/52 calibre or 45 calibre. Locally upgraded and retrofitted guns will make up additional numbers.


http://www.defproac.com/?p=728
1. This article gives a good timeline of saga. Can't copy and paste it but highlights Roughly 2700-3600 new guns have to be acquired

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 11 Nov 2018 23:25

I have seen reports of all but the 2800 ATAGS and MGS. Those were stated as requirements.
The small orders are to start the production line.

Thanks for the report on M777 design drivers.

One product improvement could be heavier barrel for IA use as they like to use artillery a lot.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby la.khan » 11 Nov 2018 23:29

nam wrote:Those numbers are according to Artillery Long term perspective plan, which was made public out a decade ago.

ArjunPandit wrote:http://www.defproac.com/?p=728
1. This article gives a good timeline of saga. Can't copy and paste it but highlights Roughly 2700-3600 new guns have to be acquired

Oh ok! Thanks for the link. Very informative! I found the timelines glacial and depressing. But things are looking up on the artillery front. If we can induct 3000+ 155mm 45/52 cal guns over 10-12 years, that would be welcome change for the better.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 12 Nov 2018 00:08

^^^around year end 2017 I posted here that we will be inducting around ~300-500 artillery pieces an year. This is similar to the no. of bofors that were deployed in kargil.

While I would have wanted Zhukov/Kanov style artillery for Vistula-Odor:
Zhukov and Konev had 163 divisions for the operation with a total of: 2,203,000 infantry, 4,529 tanks, 2,513 assault guns, 13,763 pieces of field artillery (76 mm or more), 14,812 mortars, 4,936 anti-tank guns, 2,198 Katyusha multiple rocket launchers, and 5,000 aircraft


I guess in terms of cumulative artillery fire rate we may be close or even ahead.

We need to get basics of production quality right. That's the constant gripe I read over here and in media.
If not anything this will
1. Give jobs to indians (domestic and export: if possible)
2. Make pakis more bankrupt

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby titash » 12 Nov 2018 00:48

Rakesh wrote:Modernization of Artillery – A Review of Success
http://indiandefenceindustries.in/moder ... of-success

By Lt General Palepu Ravi Shankar (Retd)


Excellent Article!!!

And they key to success is here:

"Technological mumbo jumbo did not fool us. A holistic appraisal of all technologies was taken so that programs could be executed in time. It is often said that the ‘best is the enemy of good’. We lowered sights, accepted the achievable ‘good’technology and kept the wishful ‘best’ out. However, in doing so it was ensured that the essential technologies were harnessed for implementation."

The contribution of Mr Manohar Parrikkar, then RM, was immense and critical. Very early on in our respective tenures, he conveyed to me that Artillery was his priority.

*** This article is a must-read ***

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 12 Nov 2018 04:41

He gives the roadmap that was sustained over long years to rebuild the artillery arm. Note the 7 systems of which four would be selected: Dhanush, Sarang, ATAGs, M777.
K9 is armoured corps.
All are 155mm systems.
Modular charges
Electronics Fuzes
Interim mechanical fuzes back in production.
So now all those CAG reports make sense. They give snapshots of a changing artillery picture and distorted the view.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 12 Nov 2018 04:42

He has not mentioned the joint industry and military center for induction Dhanush.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Philip » 12 Nov 2018 06:22

Is there any stat. reg. the enemy arty. strength that we would face both in Tibet/ N-East and on the west and J&K?

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 12 Nov 2018 07:48

My hunch is dhanush is not publicised due to Bofors association.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 12 Nov 2018 10:13

Gen. P.R. Shankar is reading this thread.
Best behavior!

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby suryag » 12 Nov 2018 10:24

First of all hats off to the much hated MoD(we have lots of posters/mods taking up cudgels to protect any perceived slight to forces but no one to talk for the much maligned babus); second my sashtaang pranaams to Parrikar Sir for moving the items through. It also shows the amount of garbage to be cleaned to really put a Make in India initiative in motion despite it being driven by PMO. In other words, if there is a clear directive from the top, the MoD babus/ DG Artillery will perform and further the goals i.e., they are not chronically corrupt(may be a few are opportunistically corrupt), it takes the right leadership and given that all of these laabiies and nonsense will become irrelevant in 5-10 years. Given the nature of the technical gestation periods any good decision taken will start showing fruits only a few years later and mind you this is for a relatively low tech item like Artillery, imagine what it takes for high tech equipment like Tejas. No wonder the Tejas' production rate is picking up only now. Next time i see someone calling the forces import pasand or other stuff they will get a warning.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Kashi » 12 Nov 2018 10:46

Good to see the progress in indigenising and expanding our artillery repertoire. The key would be to shelter and nurture these shoots of progress and see them grow into a forest.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 13 Nov 2018 04:31

Indian Army to get more firepower: Projects for guns are being fast tracked, says the army.

Negotiations and development are at advance stages of contract and planning in an effort to modernise the artillery arsenal by acquiring 1,500 towed artillery guns for the Indian Army. Around 1,100 are expected to be produced in India under the Make in India initiative which is expected to cut the cost of a gun by at least 25%.

India is looking at the 155 mm/52 Cal towed gun system which is being developed by Nexter Systems of France and Elbit Systems (Israel) which is at the contract negotiation stage. Both these companies have joint ventures with L&T and Bharat Forge respectively. (After ATAGS from TATA and Bharat forger, how many different type of towed guns is army looking to acquire?)

According to experts, in the Indian Army there are 200 artillery regiments which require gun and modernisation. The real requirement is of at least 3000 guns, out of which most will be towed guns.

FE was the first to report that 155mm/52 calibre towed gun called ‘Trajan’ is under-going user trials at Indian Army ranges and is being fast-tracked too for the modernisation of the Indian Army.

The `Trajan’ is a 155mm 52 caliber towed gun artillery system designed and manufactured by the French Company Nexter Systems and will be made in India by the private sector company L&T. This gun has the capability of being able to support any mechanized and armored unit and is served by a six-man crew and is very much facilitated by automation of operations for putting it into or taking it out of action, for aiming and by an automatic loading of shells.

As has been reported by FE earlier, Nexter Systems of France and L&T of India signed an Agreement announcing the formation of Nexter Systems-led consortium for 155 mm Towed Gun Artillery program for the Indian Army.

L&T in a venture with Nexter Systems will be building critical subsystems for Trajan here in India which will integrate and provide required support for the gun system to the Indian Army In 2016, the French company responded in the final bid worth $1.1 bn contract for 1,400 155mm towed cannons.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 13 Nov 2018 04:41

Typical reporters. Someone in MoD leaked news about plans to push through orders for Dhanush & ATAGS or "towed artillery" and there by supporting "Make in India". Two articles I came across got it right.

This one did a bit of "extra research" using their earlier report and ended up with this nonsense. Did not bother to do a google search.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Katare » 13 Nov 2018 05:48

Rakesh wrote:Aah okay. Thanks Nam.

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 6988453888 ---> Giving credit where its due. The revival of Indian artillery - Dhanush, K-9, M-777 is all thanks to Manohar Parrikar and a series of fine DG Artys, like Lt General Palepu Ravi Shankar (Retd). Reup of my 2016 story tracking the revival, roadmap and key decisions.

Exorcising the ghost of Bofors
https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/the- ... 2016-11-24

The Indian army is set to acquire its first howitzers in three decades and restart a long-delayed artillery modernisation program.


Please visit Lt General Palepu Ravi Shankar's (Retd) twitter feed ---> https://twitter.com/palepurshankar

Lots of excellent tweets, links (articles by him and others) and very nice info....lots to read and learn!


Don’t forget the primary architect-Gen V K Singh. Dhanush was in trial before he retired. He took a lot of pride in taking ownership of the project and lamented why army didn’t look into it earlier.
1 paisa worth of credit must also be given to Saint for supporting or at least not opposing

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 18 Nov 2018 01:17

Kalyani's have sought permission from GOI to export Bharat 52 artillery guns. They are expecting the same shortly.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 18 Nov 2018 06:59

Vips wrote:Kalyani's have sought permission from GOI to export Bharat 52 artillery guns. They are expecting the same shortly.

DENIED!!

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby krishna_krishna » 18 Nov 2018 09:14

ks_sachin wrote:
Vips wrote:Kalyani's have sought permission from GOI to export Bharat 52 artillery guns. They are expecting the same shortly.

DENIED!!



source /Link ?

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Katare » 18 Nov 2018 09:54

Why people do this? Drop a piece of info without any source or link.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 18 Nov 2018 10:25

Kalyanis should setup a plant in singapore, register a entity there, create jobs there and export from jurong industrial area

Give a slap to goi refusal

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 18 Nov 2018 10:55

Katare wrote:Why people do this? Drop a piece of info without any source or link.

I agree. Guys, please provide links. Give the news piece more credibility.


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