Indian Naval News & Discussion - 12 Oct 2013

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 14 Oct 2014 11:08

pushkar.bhat wrote:Anyone heard any storm damage assessment post Hudhud?

Navy partly restores communication lines - S.Anandan, The Hindu
The Navy on Monday restored both runways at naval air station INS Dega under the Eastern Naval Command in Vizag that were flooded in the downpour that accompanied cyclone ‘Hudhud.’

Maritime recce aircraft Dornier and naval helicopters conducted sorties from the air station to gauge the extent of the disaster and to chip in with relief. Civil aircraft could not operate as the building housing air traffic control and other structures had collapsed, sources said.

The Navy was able to also partly restore its communication lines. Antennas of naval satellite Rukmani that had been removed as a precautionary measure would soon be reinstalled to resume operations.

Volna tower on Dolphin Hill, the tower used for alignment of the Volna surface-to-air missiles (SAM) fitted on some Rajput-class destroyers, collapsed in the cyclonic storm.

Early on Monday, a P8-I long range maritime reconnaissance aircraft was airborne from INS Rajali at Arakkonam to assess the extent of damage caused by the cyclone. A Navy spokesperson said preventive measures helped minimise the damage to the Naval Dockyard. Some 24 diving teams carried out rescue and relief operations in and around Vizag.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 14 Oct 2014 11:29

One hopes that the aircraft 29Ks stationed there were flown to safety elsewhere,or where untouched in their hangars.The airport blg. was devastated.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_26622 » 14 Oct 2014 19:31

I recollect reading that once US navy vessels had stayed back in harbor during a storm and suffered heavy damage - they realized that the best way to protect naval assets is to get out of the way before nature turns loose.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby anand_sankar » 14 Oct 2014 20:16

There is that story of the INS Mysore ploughing through a hurricane in the Atlantic Ocean. Heard the ship suffered quite some damage. Have never found any links of that account.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Prem » 15 Oct 2014 07:26

पूर्व नेवी चीफ़ के निशाने पर यूपीए. Mundu Man striked again and again even below the belt. Check what he says about DDM.
http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/f ... iew/341570

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 15 Oct 2014 13:25

B-8 tested by the Israelis against a "Yakhont" configured target.Was reported successful.This beggars the thought that the Israelis who destroyed a large part of Syria's Yakhont stocks over a year ago might've snatched one. However,the proof of the missile's capability will be known only when it faces a real Yakhont or equiv. missile.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SNaik » 15 Oct 2014 13:48

Philip wrote:B-8 tested by the Israelis against a "Yakhont" configured target.Was reported successful.This beggars the thought that the Israelis who destroyed a large part of Syria's Yakhont stocks over a year ago might've snatched one. However,the proof of the missile's capability will be known only when it faces a real Yakhont or equiv. missile.

Israeli report quotes that target missile was produced in Italy.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Ranjani Brow » 15 Oct 2014 14:40

I remember an Israeli Member (supposedly a IAI engineer in India working on Jaguar IS) on an Indian Forum saying Barak-8 has been tested against Brahmos.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 15 Oct 2014 18:50

Philip wrote:B-8 tested by the Israelis against a "Yakhont" configured target.Was reported successful.This beggars the thought that the Israelis who destroyed a large part of Syria's Yakhont stocks over a year ago might've snatched one. However,the proof of the missile's capability will be known only when it faces a real Yakhont or equiv. missile.


Philip are you referring to recent news about Barak missile being testing against targets to improve its ability to intercept Yakhont like targets? That is Barak-1 not Barak-8.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ravip » 15 Oct 2014 19:32

Plz watch ADM. Joshi's interview on ndtv...any patriotic souls blood would boil listening to it...he has very gently told about how the system was running under saint and he gave some hints about some media reporters involved with arms dealers....I have to apologies to BR members for defending saint on some occasions...when I used to defend saint I had a notion that the critics of saint are getting carried away by jingoism but now that facts came from the horses mouth I stand corrected.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Surya » 15 Oct 2014 21:00

It is scathing on our DDM including some of our "exclusive , breaking, first to report" types who harped on the numbers of accidents

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 15 Oct 2014 21:09

Link to NDTV Interview with Adm Joshi

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/v ... -justadded

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby KBDagha » 15 Oct 2014 21:11

Navy chief is referring to this news:
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 82361.aspx

Check out the name of the news writer...

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Karan M » 15 Oct 2014 21:26

Austin wrote:Link to NDTV Interview with Adm Joshi

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/v ... -justadded


Very upset at "coup theory paper"'s journalist who is a "darling of arms vendors" - "this reporter was in country a, b, c at invitation of vendor".

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... i-resigns/
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... vy-armour/
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... -manpower/

http://hrana.org/news/2013/07/will-take ... -pla-navy/
This correspondent was in Qingdao on the invitation of the All China Journalists Association

http://www.financialexpress.com/news/mo ... na/1100061
(The reporter in attending the Carnegie International Nuclear Policy Conference on the invitation of the Carnegie Endowment)

http://www.financialexpress.com/news/ru ... al/1137931
The correspondent is in Russia at the invitation of the United Shipbuilding Corp.

http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/u ... b/262714/2
— (The reporter is in the US at the invitation of Lockheed Martin)
Last edited by Karan M on 15 Oct 2014 21:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 15 Oct 2014 21:52

Admiral Joshi's Interview is on in NDTV now

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby pushkar.bhat » 15 Oct 2014 22:09

Karan M wrote:
Austin wrote:Link to NDTV Interview with Adm Joshi

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/v ... -justadded


Very upset at "coup theory paper"'s journalist who is a "darling of arms vendors" - "this reporter was in country a, b, c at invitation of vendor".

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... i-resigns/
*deleted*
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... -manpower/

http://hrana.org/news/2013/07/will-take ... -pla-navy/
This correspondent was in Qingdao on the invitation of the All China Journalists Association

http://www.financialexpress.com/news/mo ... na/1100061
(The reporter in attending the Carnegie International Nuclear Policy Conference on the invitation of the Carnegie Endowment)

http://www.financialexpress.com/news/ru ... al/1137931
The correspondent is in Russia at the invitation of the United Shipbuilding Corp.

http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/u ... b/262714/2
— (The reporter is in the US at the invitation of Lockheed Martin)


I wish you had not edited out the Shekhar Gupta remark... With regards to this Pubby character all I will say is "Hai Bhagwan kya kare in Namuno ka".

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby pushkar.bhat » 15 Oct 2014 22:15

I guess the time has come to start naming and shaming the JS who were responsible for a whole bunch of actions under the watch of the Saint. These guys are still around.. Their existence should become untenable to their masters.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chetak » 16 Oct 2014 08:13

ravip wrote:Plz watch ADM. Joshi's interview on ndtv...any patriotic souls blood would boil listening to it...he has very gently told about how the system was running under saint and he gave some hints about some media reporters involved with arms dealers....I have to apologies to BR members for defending saint on some occasions...when I used to defend saint I had a notion that the critics of saint are getting carried away by jingoism but now that facts came from the horses mouth I stand corrected.


not to worry, ravip ji.

We all make mistakes but only the large hearted folks acknowledge them publicly.

The saint is / was a willing part of a much larger willful conspiracy to destabilize the Forces.

In any other country, such behavior would be treasonous and such folks would have been dealt with accordingly

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 16 Oct 2014 11:36

Yes,as I've maintained for a v.long time,informed sources have always raised a Q mark as to the spotlessness of the Saint's dhoti.It appears to have all been a charade ,preventing corruption,with the vested interests of select parties and defence MNCs given the highest priority.The IN in particular appears to have been the most badly hit with lack of support from the MOD as most of their eqpt. is aging Soviet era systems. Even after the SRakshak disaster there was no urgent decision to stem the gap in numbers and capability of the IN's sub fleet despite the UPA hanging on for another 18 months! That sections of the media have allegedly been "bought" by firang entities is also widely suspected. The Modi regime has its work cut out to stem the rot and clean out the Augean stables of the MOD.With no disrespect to Jet-Li and the PM,given the heightened sabre rattling from both Pak and China,who seem hell bent upon seizing the window of opportunity before the new regime starts taking urgent decisions to strengthen the armed forces, a full time Def. Min. is the need of the hour.One hopes that the BJP led govt. has the right men shortlisted.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby RKumar » 16 Oct 2014 14:28

There is a big reason for assigning the posts of Fin Min and Def. Min to one man. Our defense preparedness is in a mess, I equally blame the political, burocaracy and services for this mess.

Like I mentioned earlier, do not expect any big-ticket purchases. There is no use of having fancy fighter, subs, and tanks if we cannot take those to where these are required. Even if we can take them to areas, who operate these equipment should feel and live in comfortable environment. There are limited funds and GoI have to prioritize the requirements. Therefore, it makes decisions faster and easier if one person takes the decisions.

Those who want to have separate full time defense minister, please point out the systemic or procedural failures of current Def Min. May separately list wrong decisions taken by him.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Surya » 16 Oct 2014 17:33

+100 to ravip-- now elevated to rare heights on BRF

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 16 Oct 2014 18:10

NDTV has taken down the article covering interview of Admiral Joshi!!!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 16 Oct 2014 18:15

Any Hudhud damage should be kept cavy.No need to excite our foes,but from available info,no great damage done.The airfield will be operational from tomorrow media reports.
Serious known sub crisis detailed below.Action required asap by the MOD.

1, Analysis, India
Aging And Insufficient Submarines Plague Indian Navy – Analysis

October 15, 2014

By P K Ghosh

The news on India’s Naval underwater capability is grim. Requiring at least 30 submarines to fulfill its commitments, the Navy currently has only 13 subs – that too fairly old diesel electric conventional submarines . Shockingly, only half of the strength is operational at any given time. Along with these, there is Chakra, an Akula II class nuclear powered attack submarine, currently on lease from Russia which has no long range weaponry. The current lot of boats are all around 20-27 years old even though the normal prescribed life for such boats is only around 25 years.

While the ten Kilo-class (Sindhughosh class) Russian submarines in the Indian inventory were purchased between 1985 and 2000, the German Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW) Type 209 boats were purchased between 1986-94 and served the nation well despite the initial controversy of corruption.

In July 1999, the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) approved the Navy’s 30-year submarine building plan which was the only way to overcome the growing obsolescence and depletion of inventory. The plan envisaged constructing 12 new boats with foreign collaboration by 2012 while another 12 were to built using indigenous design parameters. However, in the 15 years since approval, no new submarine has been inducted. The plan went awry and was dogged by delays which started with the approval for the Scorpene submarine deal. This was partly due to the dilution of infrastructure built for the HDW submarine construction which was to be used for the Scorpene as well other material constraints. As a result, the construction of the Scorpene class (known as Project 75) at the Mazagon Docks (MDL), which was being undertaken in collaboration with the French DCNS, got seriously delayed. Now, it is presumed that the first boat would be due in 2016 with the remaining five following at 10-month intervals thereafter, by which time about 65 per cent of the current fleet would be decommissioned or require urgent replacement. The last two of these boats are expected to be fitted with the Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) which would allow a conventional submarine like the Scorpene to operate without the need to surface or use a snorkel for long periods.

Recently, when Defence Minister Arun Jaitly reviewed the ongoing Scorpene project at the MDL, he certainly wasn’t happy. He was informed that the first would be delivered in September 2016 after a delay of more than four years. The balance five of the submarines are expected to follow after every 10-11 months. Unsurprisingly the Project 75 (Scorpene) cost has, in the meantime, escalated to Rs 23,562 crores.

While the delay would have shocked any concerned person, what has proved even more surprising is that the second project for more advanced stealth submarines armed with both tube-launched missiles for land-attack capabilities as well as AIP and termed P 75 India ( Project P 75I) is yet to be floated despite numerous attempts to do so. Ostensibly the file till recently was shuttling between the Finance and the Defence Ministries, now both under Mr Jaitly. The project was granted “Acceptance of Necessity” way back in November 2007 when the estimated cost was around Rs 50,000 crores . However, a fresh debate arouse on the necessity of importing two boats outright (to save time) and construct the other three at MDL and one at Hindustan Shipyard (HSL). Given the current stress to “make Indian” by the Prime Minister, it has now been decided to make the initial two boats in India which may add to the time factor, though would be suitable in the longer run in giving the public and private defence sectors the necessary technological expertise and confidence in manufacture.

India’s naval thinking derives its inspiration from maritime strategist Mahan. The idea of projecting power across the Indian Ocean for securing Indian strategic interests is the dominant discourse in this thinking. As a corollary, India considers itself a net security provider in the entire Indian Ocean region. Many of the associated issues that Indian naval planners are presently grappling with include how to cope with Chinese power projection in the Indian Ocean, expanding Indian presence in the region , controlling SLOCs (Sea lines of Communication) i.e. trade routes, de facto forward basing and generating capacity for sustained operations in and around the entire ocean. This is a difficult task to perform with the limited number of warship platforms and mere 13 conventional submarines.

The Indian Navy has a long way to go before catching up with the Chinese Navy that has been operating in the Indian Ocean rather than making the “incidental forays”. China possesses one of the largest submarine fleets comprising anything between 68 to 85 boats spread across nine different classes, a far cry from the Indian inventory. Even Pakistan which has a much smaller navy has five conventional submarines with an order of six more from China.

Despite a relatively unblemished record of submarine operation since December 1967 (when the first submarine — a Foxtrot class — arrived from Soviet Union), the Indian Navy has in recent times been bogged by accidents and perceived lack of professionalism due to these incidents. It is imperative that the institutional and professional inadequacies are addressed to overcome security gaps. A refocused attempt to rectify the growing lack of underwater platforms and warship inventory is the dire need of the hour, as we can ill afford at the cost of our national security.

(The writer is a Senior Fellow at Observer Research Foundation, Delhi)

Dr P K Ghosh is a Senior Fellow at the Delhi based Observer Research Foundation. He specializes in Maritime Security. He can be reached at pkghosh@orfonline.org

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby MN Kumar » 16 Oct 2014 18:53

rohitvats wrote:NDTV has taken down the article covering interview of Admiral Joshi!!!


Not the first time they have done. But they missed this:
Buck stops here by Burkha Dutt

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 16 Oct 2014 19:06

The "Gulfers" are banding together on water to take on their enemies (read Iran) from this report.This could have ramifications for India which has had frequent Gulf pit stops to show the flag. Would Oman join the group? It is more independent than the UAE crowd.

http://zeenews.india.com/news/world/gul ... 85167.html
Gulf states plan joint naval force: Kuwaiti official
Last Updated: Wednesday, October 15, 2014

Kuwait City: Arab states in the Gulf plan to launch a joint naval force, a top Kuwaiti defence official said on Wednesday, in a bid to protect waters shared with neighbouring Iran.

The new force is expected to be formed in the "coming months", Major General Ahmad Yussef al-Mulla was quoted as saying by the official KUNA news agency.

The Gulf Cooperation Council states -- Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates -- formed the Peninsula Shield force in 1982 as a 5,000-strong army.

Mulla said military officials from the six nations were still working out details for the naval force, which will be organised in a similar way to the joint ground forces.

The size of the force will depend on the "level of external threats for Gulf marine security," he said.

The six states share thousands of kilometres of shoreline along the Red Sea and the Arabian Sea -- bodies of water also patrolled by Iran`s powerful navy.

Warships from the US Fifth Fleet based in Bahrain are present in the region.

Three years ago, Peninsula Shield troops were deployed in Sunni-ruled Bahrain to help the kingdom`s security forces put down protests led by the Shiite majority.

Together, the six states sit on 40 precent of global crude reserves and a quarter of the world`s natural gas. They have a population of 50 million, about half of them foreigners.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chetak » 16 Oct 2014 20:46

Philip wrote:The "Gulfers" are banding together on water to take on their enemies (read Iran) from this report.This could have ramifications for India which has had frequent Gulf pit stops to show the flag. Would Oman join the group? It is more independent than the UAE crowd.

http://zeenews.india.com/news/world/gul ... 85167.html
Gulf states plan joint naval force: Kuwaiti official
Last Updated: Wednesday, October 15, 2014

Kuwait City: Arab states in the Gulf plan to launch a joint naval force, a top Kuwaiti defence official said on Wednesday, in a bid to protect waters shared with neighbouring Iran.

The new force is expected to be formed in the "coming months", Major General Ahmad Yussef al-Mulla was quoted as saying by the official KUNA news agency.

The Gulf Cooperation Council states -- Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates -- formed the Peninsula Shield force in 1982 as a 5,000-strong army.

Mulla said military officials from the six nations were still working out details for the naval force, which will be organised in a similar way to the joint ground forces.

The size of the force will depend on the "level of external threats for Gulf marine security," he said.

The six states share thousands of kilometres of shoreline along the Red Sea and the Arabian Sea -- bodies of water also patrolled by Iran`s powerful navy.

Warships from the US Fifth Fleet based in Bahrain are present in the region.

Three years ago, Peninsula Shield troops were deployed in Sunni-ruled Bahrain to help the kingdom`s security forces put down protests led by the Shiite majority.

Together, the six states sit on 40 precent of global crude reserves and a quarter of the world`s natural gas. They have a population of 50 million, about half of them foreigners.


There will be lots of paki officers and some Indian sailors in this set up for sure.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby shravanp » 16 Oct 2014 21:02

MN Kumar wrote:
rohitvats wrote:NDTV has taken down the article covering interview of Admiral Joshi!!!


Not the first time they have done. But they missed this:
Buck stops here by Burkha Dutt



There's written as well: http://idrw.org/?p=44973

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_26622 » 16 Oct 2014 22:39

I am failing to understand this recent harping and import 'NOW' pitch to counter Paki+Chini subs by increasing our submarine fleet strength. This is a knee jerk reaction or BS to empty our pockets >> Please suggest what am I missing here as this strategy is akin to asking a blind man to catch another blind man.

Some data points and suggestions considering we are taking a defensive approach in IOR unlike US/China world dominance needs -

1. Submarines can detect other 'decent' submarines at very low distances like 10~20 kms - Check http://fas.org/spp/eprint/snf03222.htm. Going this route means having 2 to 3 X more subs than your enemy - next to impossible for EU or Russian import options and feels kind of 'Fooli*h'

2. Weapon and sensor package in a ship (with heli deck) will be much better than in a submarine to counter another enemy submarine. I am imagining an Astute submarine kind of sensor and processing capability is more easy to have on a Ship rather than a Diesel sub. We need not focus on miniaturization as its on a ship instead of a Submarine - easier to accomplish. Bottleneck and major running expense is SINGLE or TWO HELICOPTER itself.

3. This is an out of the box suggestion - how about having 5~10 K ton ships/LPD's which can launch numerous robotic or single crew mini-vessels having sensor + weapon package similar to an anti sub helicopter and positioning them in a wide grid. Unmanned or low crew vessels can stay on station for a month plus and a helicopter can be used to service/relieve crew. This is a much more effective solution using available/reachable technologies and capabilities.

4. Land or Space based sensors seem to an out-of-the box approach - much needed as conventional means are likely to be ineffective. This is for the long term though.
Last edited by member_26622 on 16 Oct 2014 22:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Surya » 16 Oct 2014 22:57

saurabh jha mentions manu pubby saying something on twitter but I could not find it

anyone seen it?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 16 Oct 2014 23:10

Surya wrote:saurabh jha mentions manu pubby saying something on twitter but I could not find it

anyone seen it?


Check out @manupubby's Tweet: https://twitter.com/manupubby/status/52 ... 41280?s=09

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Surya » 16 Oct 2014 23:28

thanks rohit
was looking in httweets

What a classless rat manu pubby is turning out to be

now to find shekhar guptas defence
Last edited by Surya on 16 Oct 2014 23:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Indranil » 16 Oct 2014 23:39

skekatpuray wrote:There's written as well: http://idrw.org/?p=44973


This is too precious to be lost. Cataloging it here for back-up. Please always provide credits to IDRW whenever you cite/qoute the text.
NDTV: What prompted the government to accept your resignation with such haste?
Admiral DK Joshi: On the speed of its acceptance I really have no comments. In my letter I had requested that it would be with immediate affect. I said it should be done immediately. No issue with that but that it was accepted in a couple of hours amused me that there was such haste to pin it on someone.
NDTV: That it was accepted within 10 minutes I am told
Admiral DK Joshi: It took a couple of hours, certainly not 10 minutes but fairly quickly
NDTV: That was Mr Antony's reaction
Admiral DK Joshi: There was I think surprise. Nothing more.
NDTV: Normally one would think that such a resignation would be taken to the Cabinet Committee on Security, at least to the Cabinet or to the Prime Minister. Do you think that happened?
Admiral DK Joshi: Well I wouldn't comment on the process that may or may not have been followed, but that it took just a couple of hours should perhaps provide an indication of the route it took.
NDTV: But was it done to get rid of the problem and not let the problem get beyond you to the Minister and to the MoD?
Admiral DK Joshi: it would appear that the haste with which it was accepted perhaps there might have been consideration that what happens if this fellow changed his mind?
NDTV: But what really pushed you into resigning?
Admiral DK Joshi: The root cause is this dysfunctional and inefficient business model that we have, wherein professional competence, domain expertise, accountability, responsibility and authority, these all reside in separate silos in different locations. While professional competence, accountability, responsibility is with the service that is not the case with authority. And by authority I really mean the power to approve something, empowerment to approve something or the other. For example, change of submarine batteries, which are available indigenously or for commencing refits and repairs of ships, aircraft, submarines in Indian yards, the service does not have that empowerment. That's a broad construct as a background. Where there is authority there is no accountability. And where there is responsibility there is no authority.
You don't have to accept this coming from me. For more than a decade now recognising fully that higher management of defence needs reforms, several expert committees have been formed. Virtually all their recommendations have been identical, but vested interests have ensured that the more substantive ones, which bring authority and accountability together, have not been approved. Some peripheral ones have been progressed but nothing substantive.
You will be, for example, told listen we have created HQ IDS. But it's a headless wonder, its head was never appointed. I have been CISC, CINCAN tenure. I know it very well. Then they will tell you how the service HQs have been named as Integrated HQs, Ministry of Defence, but as the then Defence Secretary told the Standing Committee on Defence, the changes were mostly cosmetic as indeed they are.
NDTV: When you say vested interests, who do you mean? Let's get it out
Admiral DK Joshi: Vested interests, to you and your perceptive listeners are very clear. These are the ones who wield the authority without accountability. With that as a backdrop in my letter, I had said I am accepting the moral responsibility for the dent caused to the professional image of the navy on account of a few accidents and incidents. Image is the key or the operative word here. Many things go into making or demolishing of the image. Chief among them is the professional conduct of the service. There is no denying the fact there were issues there. But correctives were put in place. But apart from that there were many factors external to the service, which were entirely beyond my control. For example, the support extended to the service and by support I do not mean charity or favours being done. Was your proposal for replacement of submarine batteries being approved in time? Were your ships offloading done in time? Was the ordinance for armaments being purchased in time? And the answer to all of them is known. And all these have an effect on image and morale of the service. Now submarine batteries, changing of the batteries is not a minor issue like two guys lift a car battery and start off the car. It requires crane effort, degutting of a submarine, often shifting them from one coast to the other. What also has to be seen is the impact on submarine arm for instance. Having been told you are an elite arm, run deep and run silent, we can't even provide them with replacement batteries in time. A more untenable and ridiculous example cannot be given. Or we can't give refits to ships in our own shipyards in time. This is the support I am talking about.
Another dimension of this support is when things go wrong and occasionally they will, in any high technology enterprise things will go wrong occasionally, does the establishment support you or does it rush to make 'frittering away of national resources' kind of statements? Again it impacts the image. Also the power of the media; the power of the media to make or mar the image is unquestionable. Within that what I wish to illustrate is that may be two or three relatively junior and reporters are able to drown out the voice of reason of the rest of the mainstream, national media entirely, because of our tendency to believe what is sensational, and not what is well-reasoned and mature reporting.
For example there was one TV reporter. When the Sindhurakshak tragedy, where every channel was showing the submarine on fire, it was a national tragedy really. But the fate of those trapped inside was not known. This reporter is standing on top of Raisina Hill and telecasting a news that we are told that the Navy Chief is headed to Bombay, but we do not know if he will visit the site of the accident, because when the Uttaranchal, not Uttarakhand, tragedy happened the Navy Chief did not go there, although he is a native from that place
NDTV: That's a personal attack
Admiral DK Joshi: Apart from being a personal attack it brings out the level of education and maturity of this reporter. Does he feel Navy Chief is headed to Bombay to join Bollywood or trade shares in Bombay Stock Exchange?
NDTV: That's an unfortunate part of the media.
Admiral DK Joshi: Precisely. And for a so-called defence correspondent he does not even know the names of our border states. And what he perhaps was implying is that service chiefs should intervene in natural disasters if they are natives of that state.
Then there were these two newspapers. One of course was the one which had invented the coup theory, and this reporter was darling of the foreign vendors, and to show his importance he would author articles like the reporter is in country abc at the invitation of xyz. Then there was another paper which had a banner headline 'VikramAditya is unable to refuel from tanker at sea. The ship is incapable of navigating at high seas at 56 km an hour'. Any kindergarten kid will tell you we don't measure distances for ships in nautical miles and knots. That is the level of knowledge and professional grasp of this reporter. It was a blatant lie.
Here were Chiefs of foreign navies calling me and congratulating me, 'what an achievement. You had taken over the ship in Arctic conditions in the month of December-January, and without any prior work up it refuelled several times with our tanker and touched Karwar, the first port it entered. It was widely reported by the media a week earlier than this headline. So a blatant lie; so a point I am bringing out is that largely ignorant, relatively junior reporters are able to drown out the reports of mature reporters.
NDTV: But going beyond those headlines, were the Ministers and those in the authority also guilty of believing those reports, rather than asking you what exactly was happening?
Admiral DK Joshi: Well when you issue statements like frittering away national resources I think its a very damning indictment of a service. To begin with frittering away sort of implies willful waste, and when related to an armed force it is tantamount to treachery.
Now the sensible media at that point in time had erupted and said this is a most unfortunate and unwarranted statement and rather than rendering support to the service, I remember the phrase used that time was 'clearing the yard arm should not have been done, it was being attacked. But that voice was drowned out. This trio ad nauseam getting onto the hourly chant of Navy frittering away national resources, accidents in 4 days, 5 accidents in 6 days, was able to cloud the minds of even learned people to such an extent that when this 56 km an hour headline appeared, one of the Cabinet Ministers rang me and said Chief, what is this that I read about trouble with Vikramaditya? I had to tell him if we had to believe this report, then the ship has sailed on love and fresh air, because the indisputable fact remains. The ship had not entered any port and the ship had refuelled several times! But that is the power of negative reporting, particularly when they are fed constantly.
NDTV: So was it an inside job, a sort of soft coup from within? Were you forced into a corner?
Admiral DK Joshi: I don't think there was nothing internal from the service. But that feeds were being given is indisputable. We know who was constantly feeding this so that should something go wrong, the service is the villain. Knights are knights in shining armour. There was a job of a particular agent of the establishment to continuously feed this news. But of course that is not the reason why I put in my papers. Like I said, I took responsibility only for the in service aspects, but they were circumscribed by the events that I described.
NDTV: But I want clarification from you. Does the gap, the cleavage between MOD and service HQ remain as wide as we know or perceive it to be?
Admiral DK Joshi: You have already said it. And all your perceptive viewers know that
NDTV: So what would you want on defence reforms?
Admiral DK Joshi: Nothing. You don't have to go by my stand. You dust these reports and implement their recommendations. They prescribe to you what needs to be done to bring authority and accountability together, wherever it has to reside.
NDTV: Let's look at a larger question. A Chief's resignation is not a matter to be sneezed at. Was it an emotional decision to go out mid way?
Admiral DK Joshi: Sentiments and emotions were certainly involved, but it was driven purely by practical consideration and realisation of on ground situation.
NDTV: Was it frustration at the functioning? Was it building up?
Admiral DK Joshi: It was building up for a long long time. One had been watching the way the cookie crumbles and that is long before one becomes the Chief.
NDTV: Where do we go from here? People have said you brought it upon yourself by being harsh on your juniors, and then had no choice but to quit when things became worse.
Admiral DK Joshi: Was there pressure on me on account of actions taken against erring subordinates? No. The actions were taken only in respect of serious professional lapses, and that by itself did not put me under any pressure. But again, limiting myself to in service, I have always believed that beyond a point moral responsibility has to travel upwards. And this is what I told my Flag Officers, that while I relived many officers at some point in time the Captain of a good ship navy has to leave.
NDTV: I again come back to the same question. What next? Where do we go from here? How should the reforms come?
Admiral DK Joshi: Hard decisions need to be taken.
NDTV: Are you in favour of more tri-service jointmanship?
Admiral DK Joshi: Of course
NDTV: I still have to get that answer. When you took the decision, looking back could you have done it differently?
Admiral DK Joshi: No I would not have. The operating environment was dysfunctional and I felt being a service chief is not just about preening about on national TV, take a salute on Republic Day. People tell you oh you looked so smart in your uniform. In actual fact you are unable to get a set of batteries for your submarines and to my mind that was a completely untenable situation for continuation as a Chief, it had been building up.
NDTV: Did the Defence Minister ever ask you relevant questions? Are our politicians capable of understanding defence issues?
Admiral DK Joshi: I know where you getting at, but those who know me will tell you that I am not a sort of person who will take the complaint only once to the higher authority and keep quiet about it.

Karan M
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Karan M » 17 Oct 2014 01:31

Surya wrote:thanks rohit
was looking in httweets

What a classless rat manu pubby is turning out to be

now to find shekhar guptas defence


Kaha ka defence. Both knew exactly what they are doing.

We see the same with DRDO - Tejas, Arjun et al.

Pubby on Arjun - note the complete absence of any sort of proof for his claims and some outright whoppers on its performance, even as the tank had slammed its T-90 opposition in trials. Why did it appear? Because suddenly there was a renewed push for Arjun to be ordered in number.

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2010/06/ ... -road.html

Jokers like Aroor et al for publicity then spread the canards further.

This BTW, was why I was pointing out how these fellows deliberately organize negative news and how deliberately tarnishing Indian agencies harms us in the long run even as one gent was saying "so what, everyone does it".

The traders use inter service rivalries, ego battles to get their way.

All this is deliberate and intended to scuttle the deterrence value of the Indian services and organization, reduce their standing in society and public perception, in turn affect their funding and recruitment plus importance given to them by lay public and decision makers.

Admiral Joshi wrote: I remember the phrase used that time was 'clearing the yard arm should not have been done, it was being attacked. But that voice was drowned out. This trio ad nauseam getting onto the hourly chant of Navy frittering away national resources, accidents in 4 days, 5 accidents in 6 days, was able to cloud the minds of even learned people to such an extent that when this 56 km an hour headline appeared, one of the Cabinet Ministers rang me and said Chief, what is this that I read about trouble with Vikramaditya? I had to tell him if we had to believe this report, then the ship has sailed on love and fresh air, because the indisputable fact remains. The ship had not entered any port and the ship had refuelled several times! But that is the power of negative reporting, particularly when they are fed constantly.


and

NDTV: So was it an inside job, a sort of soft coup from within? Were you forced into a corner?
Admiral DK Joshi: I don't think there was nothing internal from the service. But that feeds were being given is indisputable. We know who was constantly feeding this so that should something go wrong, the service is the villain. Knights are knights in shining armour. There was a job of a particular agent of the establishment to continuously feed this news. But of course that is not the reason why I put in my papers. Like I said, I took responsibility only for the in service aspects, but they were circumscribed by the events that I described.


NDTV: So was it an inside job, a sort of soft coup from within? Were you forced into a corner?
Admiral DK Joshi: I don't think there was nothing internal from the service. But that feeds were being given is indisputable. We know who was constantly feeding this so that should something go wrong, the service is the villain. Knights are knights in shining armour. There was a job of a particular agent of the establishment to continuously feed this news. But of course that is not the reason why I put in my papers. Like I said, I took responsibility only for the in service aspects, but they were circumscribed by the events that I described.


Again, how it ties back:
http://www.idsa-india.org/an-aug9-1.html

In February 1999, Lieutenant General Javed Nasir, former head of the ISI, then Chief Intelligence Advisor to Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, a well-known Islamic hawk, wrote a highly publicised article “Calling the Indian Army Chief’s Bluff”. The crux of that article was that the Indian Army was incapable of undertaking any conventional operation.


This sort of talk is all based on the media constantly harping on how pathetic the Indian services are, how good for nothing Indians in DRDO etc cannot develop anything, how the Army/AF/Navy senior leaders don't deserve respect (the articles on VK Singh being casteist, power hungry f.e.), the distrust of civilians for the military (coup attempt).. and so forth.

Its been going on for ages. And many of our own folks get caught up to score points. The Navy Chief even openly admits "that feeds were being given" from within the establishment.

Surya
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Surya » 17 Oct 2014 05:59

Karan

I meant - it seems Shekhar gupta defended Manu somewhere -

now they are all in India today so now you will see the other geniuses including unfortunately some who were BRF defend this or malign the naval chief in some manner (the same way they went after VKS)

Karan M
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Karan M » 17 Oct 2014 18:35

Surya, I hope Modi and co teach this cabal of news traders a good lesson in how to behave.

RoyG
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby RoyG » 17 Oct 2014 19:54

Karan M wrote:Surya, I hope Modi and co teach this cabal of news traders a good lesson in how to behave.


It will happen in due time. As India grows in stature, people are going to demand more from news. Professionalism and accountability can only grow.

member_28797
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_28797 » 17 Oct 2014 20:05

RoyG wrote:
Karan M wrote:Surya, I hope Modi and co teach this cabal of news traders a good lesson in how to behave.


It will happen in due time. As India grows in stature, people are going to demand more from news. Professionalism and accountability can only grow.


The current cartoons deliberately do it, not because they are inexperienced but because their interests lie elsewhere. It's time to disband the neo-colonial media cabal just like the neo-colonial congi/marxist/nehruvian/sickular cabal. It's one giant monster that has been used to feed anti India propaganda to it's own masses. Combine the idiotic reporting of India bashing with pathetic governance from the same cabal and the aam abduls genuinely start to believe their civillisation is not worth saving. Note how non-Hindus are always spared from such bashing in the name of sickularism

member_28797
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Posts: 188
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_28797 » 17 Oct 2014 20:05

RoyG wrote:
Karan M wrote:Surya, I hope Modi and co teach this cabal of news traders a good lesson in how to behave.


It will happen in due time. As India grows in stature, people are going to demand more from news. Professionalism and accountability can only grow.


The current cartoons deliberately do it, not because they are inexperienced but because their interests lie elsewhere. It's time to disband the neo-colonial media cabal just like the neo-colonial congi/marxist/nehruvian/sickular cabal. It's one giant monster that has been used to feed anti India propaganda to it's own masses. Combine the idiotic reporting of India bashing with pathetic governance from the same cabal and the aam abduls genuinely start to believe their civillisation is not worth saving. Note how non-Hindus are always spared from such bashing in the name of sickularism

RoyG
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Posts: 5181
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 05:10

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby RoyG » 17 Oct 2014 20:15

Okay just relax. It will take some time but it will happen. Just like in politics there is a tectonic shift happening, we'll see it in media too.

Aditya G
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 17 Oct 2014 22:34

One of the articles in question :evil: :evil:

Choppy first ride home for INS Vikramaditya
Rahul Singh, Hindustan Times New Delhi, February 10, 2014
First Published: 00:16 IST(10/2/2014) | Last Updated: 08:32 IST(10/2/2014)

...

The $2.33 billion ( Rs. 13,980 crore) aircraft carrier, bought second-hand from Russia and delivered five years behind schedule, reportedly suffered a boiler breakdown during its 42-day journey, compromising the warship’s ability to cut through choppy seas at a top speed of up to 56 kmph, a navy source said. The vessel has a history of boiler problems with 2012 sea trials failing due to a design problem in the ship’s boilers.

Moreover, the tanker accompanying the 44,500-tonne aircraft carrier failed to carry out a refuelling mission near the Portuguese coast, raising doubts about the navy’s ability to replenish warships on the high seas.

A senior defence ministry official confirmed to HT that the warship faced technical problems during its homeward journey and the navy would be asked to submit a detailed report on the incidents.

....


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