Indian Naval News & Discussion - 12 Oct 2013

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby prabhug » 12 Feb 2015 11:40

what is the probability of the min-brahmos developed used in coastal security ??

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 13 Feb 2015 12:05

Some sad news,that the Viraat is going to be retired in 2016.The reason given that there are not enough Sea harriers operational. We missed the bus when the UK for budgetary reasons retd. early 70+ Harriers all snapped up by the USMC. Even a dozen had they been acquired could've kept the carrier going for another few years. The RN also had some Sea Harriers which were also retd. some time ago apart from the GR Harriers. Spares ,etc. could be available for cannibalisation.Maintenance is also mentioned,but until the 4 new amphibs which will arrive only by 2020 at the earliest,the Viraat could've been kept on in service as a helicopter carrier/amphib vessel,which was its role during the Falklands War. IAC-1,the new Vikrant is not yet commissioned,and the Viraat could've been kept on until the Vikrant was commissioned. One hopes that the IN at least keeps the carrier in "mothballs" until IAC-1,arrives.

The UK may be interested in preserving he carrier as a museum,as it won the Falklands War for it.One hopes that at least the GOI retains the carrier as a military museum after the Vikrant was sadly sent to the breakers.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/i ... 884261.ece

INS Viraat to be decommissioned in 2016
INS Viraat, India's second aircraft carrier commissioned in 1987, is slated to have a grand farewell next year.

The aircraft carrier has served for 56 years

The Navy is learnt to have taken the call to retire the decrepit warhorse INS Viraat, the aircraft carrier that has had a service life of 56 years as on date — first as HMS Hermes in the Royal British Navy and in its present avatar since 1987.

Viraat — which saw action in the Falklands War and remained for well over a decade the sole aircraft carrier in the Indian Ocean region following the decommissioning of the first Indian carrier INS Vikrant in 1997 — is slated to have a grand farewell at the International Fleet Review at Visakhapatnam in February 2016.

It is in the process of obtaining Defence Ministry’s clearance to the retirement plan.

Mounting maintenance costs and rapid depletion of its integral fleet of Sea Harrier jump jets are said to have catalysed the decision to decommission Viraat. The Navy shelled out Rs. 70 crore for the last routine refit of the carrier.

The carrier was to have been dry-docked at the shipyard for the next round of periodic refit in December last year, but it was called off in view of the retirement proposal. Viraat is now expected to have its decommissioning refit sometime in the middle of 2015, say sources.

The retirement call was forced, in part, by the dwindling fleet of Sea Harrier fighters operating from the deck of Viraat. While the limited upgrade Sea Harrier (LUSH) programme bestowed the fighters with modern avionics and beyond visual range (BVR) strike capability, the ageing airframe has been a concern. Not more than seven Sea Harriers are available at the moment — some of them cannibalised (used as ‘Christmas Tree’ for spares) to keep the relatively agile ones airworthy.

“Thanks to the Navy’s stringent maintenance regimen, we have been able to operate Viraat without major glitches until now. But the Harrier fleet has dwindled so much that within the Navy, Viraat is often referred to as a ‘One Harrier carrier’. No point flogging it any further,” an official said.

India’s first carrier Vikrant, which was turned into a maritime museum post-retirement in 1997, has now been broken up after its upkeep became ostensibly unviable.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby arshyam » 13 Feb 2015 12:10

Please, let's preserve at least this ship as a museum!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23370 » 13 Feb 2015 14:49

Why ? I would prefer Indian made carrier be made a museum in 35-40 yrs. this is just a second hand british ship. Target practice for Brahmos and Shaurya based AShM.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby maz » 13 Feb 2015 15:23

The report of Viraats' decommissioning by Feb 2016 may be not be accurate. It would be helpful if folks could independently confirm this news by asking those that would know? Thx

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Yagnasri » 13 Feb 2015 15:26

Bheeshma wrote:Why ? I would prefer Indian made carrier be made a museum in 35-40 yrs. this is just a second hand british ship. Target practice for Brahmos and Shaurya based AShM.


If we had done with Vikranth, it would have been ok because it served in 1971 war. Virraat is not so famous.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Shreeman » 13 Feb 2015 15:51

Museums attract new talent, better than any ad or movie. If you were not ashamed to use it for three decades, you shouldnt be ashamed to put it on display. Vikrant break up was criminal, but that is just my opinion.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 13 Feb 2015 20:12

Viraat decom will free up barak-1 system. How is this tying in with vkd maintenay schedule?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby arshyam » 13 Feb 2015 21:23

Shreeman wrote:Museums attract new talent, better than any ad or movie. If you were not ashamed to use it for three decades, you shouldnt be ashamed to put it on display. Vikrant break up was criminal, but that is just my opinion.

Precisely. We should have never broken up Vikrant, given her chequered history. But we did. No money, apparently.

When I was a kid, the Army seemed to be cool due to their association with the Republic Day parades, Air Force was also cool since they flew fast jets that performed acrobatics. Navy, however was not, since all I knew was they sat on ships in the sea. Nothing visible. And this was when growing up in a coastal city like Chennai. Also, no Wikipedia, BR, etc. back then. In fact I knew a guy who went to the NDA selections with Navy as his 1st choice, and all of us asked him why Navy?

Nothing much has changed 20 years. Was talking to a teenager last year, who is interested in joining the IAF and he was surprised to know that the Navy had its own air wing that operated fighter jets. He didn't know much about aircraft carriers. No doubt he will learn (I pointed him to BR), but the point is, there is no better way for the Navy to visibly attract new talent than by having dedicated museums around the country. Navy Day exhibitions are not that easy to visualize since the public stands on the beach and tries to get a glimpse of what's happening in the water. Nothing beats going on board a ship/sub and seeing it for one's self. Some beginning was made in Vizag's sub museum, but that was all. The Vikrant museum in Mumbai was not easy to visit when she was there - closed most of the time, and was compounded by lack of info about it. I once had to ask a Navy chap who was at the Gateway of India for a drill about visiting the IMS Vikrant, and he said it was open only a few specific days a month. As a tourist, too bad, couldn't visit unless one is lucky enough to be there when it was open.

Viraat may have been 2nd hand, but we operated with her for 50 years. That was worth something. Plus she operates the Sea Harriers, the last of the STOVL aircraft for IN (unless we get the F-35 in the future), so that would also be historically important. Any ship can be used as target practice, but an aircraft carrier is symbol of naval might and can better serve as a museum and attract talent. If I were a kid, visiting a potential IMS Deepak as a symbol of naval might will leave me as "meh, whatever, she is just a ship". Not so an A/C.

Sorry for the long ramble, this is a topic dear to my heart. JMT and all that.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sankum » 13 Feb 2015 22:36

IN retired 3 remaining Sea harrier trainers in 2012 according to CAG report and only 8 upgraded Sea harriers are in service which were to be retired along with INS Viraat.

If IN has preponed the retirement it means it is not cost effective and it is for good as the money saved can be spent on other projects.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_28911 » 14 Feb 2015 14:10

Image

Brahmos ASCM launch from INS Kolkata (D-63)

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SNaik » 14 Feb 2015 18:24

Singha wrote:the brahmos/klub radar has range of 50km max against large targets, much less against FACs probably.


That's true for the active tract, OTH is provided by the passive one, up to 100-250 km (depending on the actual radar). Monolith radar includes also a datalink with MRA and another datalink for ship-to-ship information exchange.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby shaun » 14 Feb 2015 18:31

Brahmos don't have any data link system so don't have any OTH solution . its fully autonomous , fire and forget missile

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 14 Feb 2015 19:04

Hello, INS Kochi:

Image

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_28911 » 14 Feb 2015 19:12

Image

(from right to left) CNS 8) , Defence Minister M Parrikar, Goa CM Laxmikant Parsekar and MoS Defence Rao Inderjit Singh at Navy’s TROPEX-2015

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby arun » 14 Feb 2015 19:13

Same picture as the one of INS Kolkatta firing a Brahmos Missile during TROPEX-2015 but one that packs in a third more bytes.

The picture is from Ministry of Defence Spokesperson Sitanshu Kar's twitter account at https://twitter.com/SpokespersonMoD/ :

The photo itself is here:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B9ywKRQCUAAoIwY.jpg:large


Meanwhile would have loved to get hold of a Hi-Res version of this picture of the INS Kolkatta once again firing a Brahmos Missile during TROPEX-2015, a picture that seems to have been taken at the same missile firing but later in time :

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B9zidrNCAAEjrkO.jpg:large

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby JE Menon » 14 Feb 2015 19:19

There are a lot of pix on Sitanshu Kar's twitter page. I particularly like the one of NCC cadets having been invited on board to get a taste of life on a "frontline navy ship" - take a look at the picture guys.

We have come a long way since 1947, or even the 1960s...

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 14 Feb 2015 19:23

Judging from the reflection of the sun, Kolkata's "eye of sauron" is non-metallic

arun wrote:....
Meanwhile would have loved to get hold of a Hi-Res version of this picture of the INS Kolkatta once again firing a Brahmos Missile during TROPEX-2015, a picture that seems to have been taken at the same missile firing but later in time :

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B9zidrNCAAEjrkO.jpg:large

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Karan M » 14 Feb 2015 20:35

Shaun wrote:Brahmos don't have any data link system so don't have any OTH solution . its fully autonomous , fire and forget missile


The OTH part means that the Brahmos C3I gets the information and fires Brahmos in that bearing. Given its Mach3 speed, target dispersion is low, hence it doesn't need a datalink. OTOH, it can't be retargeted on the fly either.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Karan M » 14 Feb 2015 20:38

Ankar wrote:Image

Brahmos ASCM launch from INS Kolkata (D-63)


Thats a million $ firepower demo but I guess Navy does qual tests anyhow and so this would help with that.

But what a beautiful ship. :D

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Mihir » 14 Feb 2015 21:56

Looking at this image posted on LiveFist, it appears that the missile did not go through the elaborate sequence to tilt it sideways before the booster engaged.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23694 » 14 Feb 2015 22:33

deleted
Last edited by member_23694 on 14 Feb 2015 23:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_20067 » 14 Feb 2015 23:10

dhiraj wrote:
Mihir wrote:Looking at this image posted on LiveFist, it appears that the missile did not go through the elaborate sequence to tilt it sideways before the booster engaged.


Check this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdN2H0txvEI


did they just fired 4 Brahmos in Salvo?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_20067 » 14 Feb 2015 23:26

Image

Another shot by Livefist

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby MN Kumar » 14 Feb 2015 23:27

dhiraj wrote:
Mihir wrote:Looking at this image posted on LiveFist, it appears that the missile did not go through the elaborate sequence to tilt it sideways before the booster engaged.



did they just fired 4 Brahmos in Salvo?


That's a US navy destroyer firing the Tomahawks. Couple of them were fired from behind the bridge. From 0.35, you can see the spy radar clearly.

What surprising is its put up on Prasar Bharati YouTube channel, which is supposedly an official GoI version.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23694 » 14 Feb 2015 23:31

MN Kumar wrote:That's a US navy destroyer firing the Tomahawks. Couple of them were fired from behind the bridge. From 0.35, you can see the spy radar clearly.


yep, me too have the same doubt. link removed

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 14 Feb 2015 23:51

Mihir wrote:Looking at this image posted on LiveFist, it appears that the missile did not go through the elaborate sequence to tilt it sideways before the booster engaged.


It looks like a nirbhay launch doesn't it. But I think it can be explained by the first pic which shows the missile snorting and turning opposite from the photographer. Thus giving the illusion

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 15 Feb 2015 18:18

http://www.oneindia.com/india/parrikar- ... 54308.html

Bengaluru, Feb 14: Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar got a feel of Indian Navy and its operational abilities after spending almost spending 20 hours onboard INS Vikramaditya.
Naval sources told OneIndia that Parrikar landed onboard the INS Vikramaditya on February 13 at 4 pm and witnessed a series of operational capabilities of Indian Navy.
Parrikar gets a feel of naval might
The minister witnessed the Theatre Readiness Operational Level Exercise (TROPEX-2015), off the coast of Goa in the Arabian Sea. He said the stay on board INS Vikramaditya helped him understand the difficult situations of sailors and officers of the Indian Navy.
He wanted the Indian Navy to remain a superior force in the Indian Ocean Region and promised all support so that it becomes a truly Blue Water Navy.
Visit kept under complete secrecy
The Ministry of Defence (MoD) kept Parrikar's visit on board INS Vikramaditya completely under a cover of secrecy. Even the MoD officials who were summoned to make arrangements for the minister's visit were clueless about their final destination. Navy spokesperson warded off queries when a section of media got leads on the minister's visit.
Interestingly, Parrikar was accompanied by his understudy and Minister of State for Defence Rao Inderjit Singh, Chief Minister of Goa Laxmikant Parsekar, Chief of Naval Staff Admiral R K Dhowan and Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Western Naval Command Vice Admiral A K Chopra.
TROPEX provides the Navy a valuable opportunity to validate its concept of operations and integration of new acquisitions with the Fleet.
Parrikar gets a feel of naval might
INS Chakra part of TROPEX
Parrkiar & Co witnessed multiple facets of operations during the period including a variety of weapon firing. The MiG 29K and Sea Harrier operations from the two aircraft carriers, integration of the P8I aircraft with the fleet, and operations by the Marine Commandos (MARCOS) were some of the glimpses of its might Indian Navy put together.
Over 40 surface combatants of various classes including the two aircraft carriers (Vikramaditya and Viraat), submarines including the INS Chakra, a large number of aircraft and UAVs are participating in the exercise.
The MoD said that two completely networked Eastern and Western Fleets were kept widely dispersed across seas in the Indian Ocean, operating in a dense electronic environment to match their professional and technical proficiency.
The Indian Air Force assets including the Sukhois, Mirages (????) and Jaguars to joined the sea party.
As reported in these columns earlier, Parrikar also witnessed the successful vertical launch of the BrahMos missile from stealth destroyer INS Kolkata.
MiG 29Ks perform bombing runs
Sources said that the professionalism of MARCOS impressed the minister. The MARCOS carried out a demonstration of insertion and extraction in the middle of the ocean by slithering.
The recently acquired MiG 29Ks proved their mettle by showing the STOBAR operations including the bombing runs.
A critical part of Anti-Missile Defence being Surface to Air Missiles (SAM), the Defence Minister witnessed the successful interception of a fast, low flying, surface-to-surface missile by a SAM. "Clear dark night laid an ideal setting for this demonstration of precision targeting," sources said


http://pib.nic.in/newsite/pmreleases.aspx?mincode=33

...

The two completely networked fleets of the Indian Navy- the Eastern and the Western- were kept widely dispersed across seas in the Indian Ocean, operating in a dense electronic environment to match their professional and technical proficiency. All the operations were facilitated by a robust and seamless communication network, including satellite communications under the Navy’s overall thrust on Network Centric Operations, aligned with the Prime Minister’s vision of ‘Digital India’. Shri Parrikar also released a postage stamp commemorating the indigenous Naval communication satellite Rukmani, which is a dedicated Naval satellite, taking the Navy to the step in achieving complete digitisation of communications. The Stamp Release which took place on board the aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya was relayed live to naval units at sea, as well as to Maritime Operations Centres ashore. Rukmani has been pivotal in ensuring seamless connectivity between the triad of surface, sub-surface and air platforms of the Navy.

...

The transformation of the Indian Navy to a future- ready network- enabled force was epitomised in the operations room of INS Vikramaditya, the Flag ship of the Western Fleet. The power of a networked force was demonstrated as operational plots and pictures from remote sensors were transferred and collated, in a flash, to present a comprehensive picture of the battle- space and effect optimal use of the weapons on board the various potent ships.


The PIB release is truly a refreshing read instead of the drab stuff that normally comes from official PR.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Karan M » 15 Feb 2015 19:24

that is a huge dog and pony show for the new DM. barak intercepting a styx? brahmos testfire? full fleet deployed. hope it works out and the navy gets due support.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 15 Feb 2015 19:33

Vkd. Poor res but notable for position of two MiGs so far up ahead on the deck:

Image

MMG firing practice. Havent noticed shields before...

Image

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 15 Feb 2015 20:33

pankajs wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Supersonic-BrahMos-successfully-test-fired-from-INS-Kolkata/articleshow/46248399.cms
Supersonic BrahMos successfully test-fired from INS Kolkata
The 290km deadly conventional missile hit its target with pinpoint accuracy during this first-ever vertical launch from the 6,800-tonne INS Kolkata, which was commissioned in August last year. Two more follow-on destroyers, INS Kochi and INS Chennai, are being constructed at the Mazagon Docks under the overall Rs 11,662 crore project.

Cross posting from Missiles thread, price tag is cheap compared to few other vessels of its class that were constructed around the same time Daring, Horizon and Akizuki.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Sanjay » 16 Feb 2015 00:36

Isn't one of those MGs a NSV 12.7mm ? It is nice to see them in action.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby kit » 16 Feb 2015 21:34

Can anyone tell whats the status of NRUAV with the Indian Navy ..i think it can enhance the surveillance of a ship like kolkata many fold ! According to IAI brochure the system seems complete and operational .

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby negi » 17 Feb 2015 16:10

maz wrote:The report of Viraats' decommissioning by Feb 2016 may be not be accurate. It would be helpful if folks could independently confirm this news by asking those that would know? Thx

Viraat and the harriers will be decommissioned in later half of 2016 , the idea is to keep them operational until the international fleet review scheduled to be held in first half of 2016 .
Last edited by negi on 17 Feb 2015 17:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby JTull » 17 Feb 2015 16:56

kit wrote:Can anyone tell whats the status of NRUAV with the Indian Navy ..i think it can enhance the surveillance of a ship like kolkata many fold ! According to IAI brochure the system seems complete and operational .


There hasn't been any news on NRUAV but Fire Scout was pitched as an alternative by NG.

DRDO Official: India Has Matured Technologically

DRDO is also looking to build a rotor Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) for the Navy which has applications like sea surveillance. This could also have civil applications like traffic management, he added. But the challenge in this project was to build smart systems that would enable the UAV to land on a moving ship.

A 20-member team is working on the project, which is expected to take off in the next 5-6 years, Tamilmani said.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 17 Feb 2015 21:40

Who needs enemies when we have each other to fight ...

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/paki ... 19108.html

...

On the evening of January 3, when the 50m long ICGS Rajratan commissioned into the ICG in February 2013 returned and berthed alongside at the Porbandar Coast Guard jetty inside the Gujarat Maritime Board's all-weather jetty, already awaiting its arrival was the Naval Officer In Charge (NOIC), a Commodore rank officer of the IN alongwith local officials. While the presence was not objected to at any point but the ICG had to categorically deny the Commodore access to the ship and crew, which was sought. The IN team had to be asked to step aside and the ICG prevailed. Meanwhile senior officials of the ICG also prevailed upon the defence ministry and committed themselves to sending a detailed report on the issue as well as share photographs and videos of the incident at the earliest. That very evening, the Commander Coast Guard Region (North West), an Inspector General rank officer, flew down to Porbandar, collected the videos and by Monday, i.e. January 5, the videos were handed over to the office of the Defence Secretary with no copies made. From conversations pieced together in New Delhi as well as in Porbandar, the entire team led by the NOIC was aghast at this treatment meted out to them and felt the ICG was being too defensive. However, it was mutually decided to not aggravate the same. The Coast Guard ship Rajratan, which can embark a compliment of six officers and 30 sailors sailed out of Porbandar on the evening of January 5 for patrolling the maritime boundary line as well as spotting debris, if any, of the Pakistani boat.

...

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby JTull » 17 Feb 2015 21:59

While we would all like perfect inter-service coordination, some degree of rivalry can be healthy. Taking a professional pride in your own work is good rather than being too keen to please. It keeps every one on their toes and professional. I wouldn't read too much into this, and knowing the source, it seems like a storm in a tea cup.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Karan M » 17 Feb 2015 22:41

JTull wrote:
kit wrote:Can anyone tell whats the status of NRUAV with the Indian Navy ..i think it can enhance the surveillance of a ship like kolkata many fold ! According to IAI brochure the system seems complete and operational .


There hasn't been any news on NRUAV but Fire Scout was pitched as an alternative by NG.

DRDO Official: India Has Matured Technologically

DRDO is also looking to build a rotor Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) for the Navy which has applications like sea surveillance. This could also have civil applications like traffic management, he added. But the challenge in this project was to build smart systems that would enable the UAV to land on a moving ship.

A 20-member team is working on the project, which is expected to take off in the next 5-6 years, Tamilmani said.


This looks like a case of the Israeli-Chetak program to jury rig the Chetak into a NRUAV flopped so now DRDO has been roped in. Really wonder if this is a 5-6 years program with only 20 members. Something is getting lost in the report.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Suraj » 18 Feb 2015 06:17

Rs 50k-cr naval project gets Cabinet nod
The Cabinet Committee on Security on Tuesday sanctioned the country's biggest naval project, the construction of seven stealth frigates for Rs 45,381 crore. Mazagon Dock Ltd (MDL), Mumbai , will build four of these, while Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers, Kolkata (GRSE), simultaneously builds the other three.

This project, dubbed Project 17A, follows on from the earlier Project 17, in which MDL built three 5,600-tonne frigates: INS Shivalik, Satpura and Sahyadri. The first of these, the Shivalik, entered service in 2009.

The timeline for Project 17A allows each shipyard a preparatory period of two years, in which they will prepare for construction and place orders for long-lead items like engines and transmission. Then they will actually build the warship over five years. The first two frigates would be delivered by MDL and GRSE in 2022, with the rest coming in pairs at one-year intervals.

The Project 17A frigates, while superficially similar to those build under Project 17, will pack significantly more punch with more advanced weaponry. The new vessels will be fitted with BrahMos cruise missile for land attack, and the new Indo-Israeli Long Range Surface-to-Air Missile (LR-SAM) that can shoot down incoming anti-ship missiles.

The main advance in Project 17A will be the "modular" method with which the frigates will be constructed. Traditional shipbuilding involved welding a hull together and launching it into water, after which swarms of craftsmen painstakingly work in the warship's cramped compartments, installing propulsion gear, electrically equipment, weapons, sensors and hundreds of kilometres of pipes and wiring.

In contrast, modular construction is like a giant Lego game. The ship is built in convenient 300-ton blocks that are then assembled together into a complete warship. Each block is fabricated in a well-lit, ventilated workshop with multi-level access, and is pre-fitted with the piping, electrical wiring and fitments that run through a ship. Giant cranes then bring the massive blocks together, each one dovetailing precisely with its neighbouring block, every wire, pipe and compartment coming together in perfect alignment.

Modular construction results in better build quality and is expected to bring down the build time from 72 to just 60 months.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby uddu » 18 Feb 2015 06:35

Tropex-2015


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