LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

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Indranil
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Indranil » 02 Feb 2015 08:51

I repeat, once again.

indranilroy wrote:Since you brought it up, I would add more detail from HAL MSM volume 5, Issue 103 from May 2013.

AERDC Design Team's Idea Recognised

The requirement of three consecutive starts for the LCA main engine has been a long felt need. The JFS (GTSU-110) was modified for improved lubrication to achieve three consecutive starts with a time gap of 75 seconds between two successive starts. However, the demonstration could not be done till now because the flywheel which is connected to the output shaft of the GTSU-110 takes six minutes to come to a stop. AERDC team members Shri K. H. Venkatesha, Manager and Shri S. EsakkiMuthu, Senior Manager (Design) came up with an innovative method to brake the flywheel, with air impingement on the fir-tree section of the flywheel, stopping it within 70 seconds. The novel idea was executed in one week and three consecutive starts were demonstrated infront of the committee members from IAF , ADA, RCMA (E) and ORDAQA (E). HAL has recognised the work of the team members, and a Certificate of Commendation was given to them during the AERDC Culture of Continuous Learning function.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Victor » 02 Feb 2015 10:25

indranilroy wrote: HAL MSM volume 5, Issue 103.
The requirement of three consecutive starts for the LCA main engine has been a long felt need.

The work of these two engineers is indeed praiseworthy but why is there a "long felt" need for 3 consecutive starts? Do we have a similar requirement for the Migs or is this only for LCA?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby UlanBatori » 02 Feb 2015 20:15

Now that the LCA is a weapon system being inducted into IAF/IN squadrons ASAP, I wonder whom exactly is BRF benefiting by posting details of sub-systems and components conveniently in one nice, expertly-explained Internet discussion thread?

Just curious...

..But THANKS!

With love from
Faisalabad, PK and Ilevak Levelse Engine-eling Centel, Thundaal Ploject, Gobi deselt.

Like..
Salient Features
Gimbal Joint Ф63 mm Ф32 mm Ф50 mm
Operating pressure (bar) 7 7 37
Operating temperature (�C) 650 650 650
Angle of deflection (degree) �6 �6 �6
Life (cycles) 100000 100000 100000


If someone were caught at the Wagah border with that in their suitcase, they would be in 4 some serious de-briefing, hain?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Indranil » 02 Feb 2015 20:30

Don't worry Ulanbatori sahab, all the above discussion is from publically available information.

Meanwhile HAL made a press release.

Bengaluru, February 2, 2015:

Image

HAL has made successful extreme cold weather trials in Jan 2015 on LCA- Tejas at Leh. “The aircraft made three consecutive starts using indigenous gas turbine starter at -15 °C with 85% charged battery a few days ago. Prior to the start, the aircraft was cold soaked for 18-20 hours (even 42 hours on one occasion) outside the hangar in Leh and no heating source was used for starting”, says Mr. T. Suvarna Raju, Chairman, HAL.

This success is a feather in the cap of HAL. A team of more than 15 engineers and technicians from HAL worked to solve the peculiar requirement faced in starting a Gas Turbine Engine in the rarefied and cold atmospheres found at Leh.

The gas turbine starter unit of HAL used to start the engine for LCA has been designed, developed and manufactured by its Aero Engine Research and Design Centre (AERDC). The first success was the rig trials with a modified starting schedule conducted at Leh (3260 m altitude) in July and August 2014. During this period HAL also successfully demonstrated the start capability of its starter even at a high altitude of 5.6 km.

HAL received external support from Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), CEMILAC, DGAQA, IAF-PMT, NFTC and others for this mission.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Victor » 03 Feb 2015 03:50

Ah, it is cold soaking. Just looked it up and it means the fuel is very cold. When a plane lands after a flight at high altitude, it is said to be cold soaked. The test LCA got cold soaked by merely being parked at high altitude.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Indranil » 03 Feb 2015 05:04

Victor sahab, when the plane is flying it is not cold soaking, because the temperature of the fuel, avionics etc are maintained within operating temperature.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby putnanja » 03 Feb 2015 06:02

Yup, and all major aircraft manufacturers do it. Iqaluit, Canada is one of the airports frequently used to do cold soak tests. Both A350 & A380 is tested there. Also, the USAF base in Eglin Florida (Mckinley lab) is also used as its test hangars can have temperatures set between -62 deg celsius to 77 deg cel.
The entire aircraft is parked outside, and the structures (flaps etc) engine avionics etc is all tested to make sure everything works well.

For e.g., the following items were tested during A350 cold soak test.

...
Airbus’ A350 XWB MSN3 development aircraft with a team of 48 Airbus specialists has completed cold weather trials at Iqaluit, Canada. Temperatures reached down to -28°C. The scope of the trials included: APU and engine starts after cold soak; verifying system behaviour; low-speed taxi and rejected take-offs. It also performed a local flight as planned.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby shiv » 03 Feb 2015 06:42

One of the things about "cold" is that air becomes more dense, unlike Leh where the altitude restricts that "advantage". In Bangalore - IIRC winter takeoffs allow shorter takeoffs than summer afternoons.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby NRao » 03 Feb 2015 07:15

I think this "cold start" is related to overcoming lubricants that tend to become very viscous as the temp declines and also machine parts that are not lubricated at start up due to the prolonged inactivity. The cranking power (mechanism) needed to overcome both of them is tested.

Also, with each start up the cranking capacity of the battery declines, which poses another challenge.

The cold fuel aspect that Victor alluded to is from a Canadian ref, where a "cold" fuel poses other challenges: ice formation over the wings that have fuel tanks, etc - that would not form ice if the fuel temps were higher. Also, to a much, much lesser extent, if the fuel has any moisture, the fuel line freezes - this normally does not happen now a days - due to fuel additives.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby SaiK » 03 Feb 2015 21:55

ops requirement for mil fighter jet cold start is different from civilian jets. civilian jets can afford time to get to normal temp by preheating and running the engine as startup, parking in sun, take time to clean the wings, etc.. mil jets means ops require very little time to kick start and get going.

cold issues also include ice build ups in wheels, vents, tubes, cowlings and wings.. including cable contractions, .. no time to warm up games.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Khalsa » 04 Feb 2015 01:24

shiv wrote:One of the things about "cold" is that air becomes more dense, unlike Leh where the altitude restricts that "advantage". In Bangalore - IIRC winter takeoffs allow shorter takeoffs than summer afternoons.


Correcto

Summers in Leh were alike to the racing pit. The ATC was in possession of some rather awesome information from Met.
Temperature (at time intervals), moisture, cloud cover. They would couple that with the army's fly out load requirements and basically the Ground Crew were leading missions where they were turning around the aircraft in matter of hours if it was to fly out with a load if any.

On a few occasions they exceeded the time or the temperature went up high too fast and the IL-76 would remain on ground rather then send them home to chandigarh with a few men inside.

Those Russian birds love the cold temperature but not the high altitude of Himalayas.

Watching Il-76 take off vs Airbus or Boeing vs the funniest ever.

The 76 would have its nose up at 60 % of the runway and then extremely slowly gain altitude vs
The Western Aircraft would use 99 % of the runway and then go up like a rocket.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby SaiK » 04 Feb 2015 03:25

http://thumbs.media.smithsonianmag.com/ ... pscale.jpg

at -40*F.
Lockheed’s Lightning II undergoes climate testing to prove it can fly under any conditions

The F-35 Lightning II above is getting blasted at the U.S. Air Force 96th Test Wing’s McKinley Climatic Laboratory located at Eglin Air Force Base, Florida.

For four months the aircraft has been subjected to conditions ranging from searing heat to temperatures as low as minus 40 degrees Fahrenheit to make sure its systems continue to function in any kind of extreme weather it might encounter on a mission

Read more: http://www.airspacemag.com/multimedia/w ... z3QizX8Qnr

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby brar_w » 04 Feb 2015 03:55

SaiK wrote:http://thumbs.media.smithsonianmag.com//filer/a1/ce/a1ce4aca-bd28-4819-8395-6d7153027f6f/16429463231_4d847635cb_k.jpg__1072x0_q85_upscale.jpg

at -40*F.
Lockheed’s Lightning II undergoes climate testing to prove it can fly under any conditions

The F-35 Lightning II above is getting blasted at the U.S. Air Force 96th Test Wing’s McKinley Climatic Laboratory located at Eglin Air Force Base, Florida.

For four months the aircraft has been subjected to conditions ranging from searing heat to temperatures as low as minus 40 degrees Fahrenheit to make sure its systems continue to function in any kind of extreme weather it might encounter on a mission

Read more: http://www.airspacemag.com/multimedia/w ... z3QizX8Qnr


See the video here:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6203&start=1880#p1787063

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby SaiK » 04 Feb 2015 07:31

nice video.. -65 to +165F is what it was put into. that is a test!

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby nirav » 04 Feb 2015 14:14

Victor wrote:
BTW, I'm not doubting anyone just because they are DRDO/HAL/ADA whatever. In my first post on this, I registered my doubts about this test involving the main engine partly because of language (ie. soaking in cold) but mostly because it didn't make sense to me (75 sec between starts). Unless more convincing facts become known, I still think the test was only of the JFS.


From where did you you get the '75 sec between starts' figure ?
The press release doesnt mention it.
http://drdo.gov.in/drdo//English/dpi//p ... 012015.pdf

T Suvarna Raju, Chairman, HAL. wrote:The aircraft made three consecutive starts using indigenous gas turbine starter at - (minus)15 degrees with 85 per cent charged battery a few days ago. Prior to the start, the aircraft was cold soaked for 18-20 hours (even 42 hours on one occasion) outside the hangar in Leh and no heating source was used for starting
Link


The tenor of your doubts makes one think that the folks who did the test and called it a technological achievement are just plain gassing.
But maybe the engineers didnt know they were "only testing the JFS" .. :roll:


Victor wrote:Ah, it is cold soaking. Just looked it up and it means the fuel is very cold. When a plane lands after a flight at high altitude, it is said to be cold soaked. The test LCA got cold soaked by merely being parked at high altitude.


I wish you do get a chance to be near a jet which has just come back from a high altitude flight.
Try placing a peck on the engine exhaust thinking "Ah, it has just returned from cold soaking flight. Its the same as being merely being parked at high altitude."

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby RKumar » 04 Feb 2015 15:25

Any news on NLCA and LCA SP-2 gurus.... I know these are supposed to fly before end of March. But for a change, it will be nice to see these planes flying before 31st March :mrgreen: :twisted:

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Victor » 05 Feb 2015 00:34

nirav wrote:I wish you do get a chance to be near a jet which has just come back from a high altitude flight.
Try placing a peck on the engine exhaust thinking "Ah, it has just returned from cold soaking flight. Its the same as being merely being parked at high altitude."

Hopefully its just a simple reading comprehension issue but I mentioned that cold soaking refers to the fuel getting cold, not the exhaust.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Shalav » 05 Feb 2015 01:24

Victor wrote:Hopefully its just a simple reading comprehension issue but I mentioned that cold soaking refers to the fuel getting cold, not the exhaust.


from Aircraft Icing Training - Glossary(Nasa)

The wings of aircraft are said to be “cold-soaked” when they contain very cold fuel as a result of having just landed after a flight at high altitude or from having been re-fuelled with very cold fuel. Whenever precipitation falls on a cold-soaked aircraft when on the ground, clear icing may occur. Even in ambient temperatures between -2°C and +15°C, ice or frost can form in the presence of visible moisture or high humidity if the aircraft structure remains at 0°C or below. Clear ice is very difficult to be detected visually and may break loose during or after takeoff. The following factors contribute to cold-soaking: temperature and quantity of fuel in fuel cells, type and location of fuel cells, length of time at high altitude flights, temperature of re-fuelled fuel and time since re-fuelling.



That's the first definition that comes up in chacha and bing - maybe it would help if you read up a little more!

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby nirav » 05 Feb 2015 11:35

Victor wrote:
nirav wrote:I wish you do get a chance to be near a jet which has just come back from a high altitude flight.
Try placing a peck on the engine exhaust thinking "Ah, it has just returned from cold soaking flight. Its the same as being merely being parked at high altitude."

Hopefully its just a simple reading comprehension issue but I mentioned that cold soaking refers to the fuel getting cold, not the exhaust.


HAL chairman said that the LCA was "soaked" upto 42 hours max prior to the test.
Pray tell which IAF fighter can do a high altitude flight for 42 hours :!: :?:

Also, if the test was just for the cold fuel ignition and the starter, im pretty sure there are a lot of industrial refrigeration facilities in India where they could cool the fuel and the starter to -15 degrees and test it ..

But DRDO/HAL have been saying all along, that it was a test of the LCA where the aircraft needed to be cold soaked for extended periods and tested if it can fire up without any external heating.
They managed to do it successfully.

I do think that there is a comprehension issue, as the only person casting doubts about the test and talking about 'cold fuel,just JFS and soaking=high altitude flight' is you.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Victor » 05 Feb 2015 20:57

You win. I admit defeat.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby putnanja » 05 Feb 2015 22:48

From tarmak007 on twitter, NCLA-NP2 prototype MAY have first flight tomorrow

Anantha Krishnan M ‏@writetake · 21m21 minutes ago
#BreakingNews FRRB clears NLCA #NP2 for maiden flight. Successfully clears HSTT today. #NP2 maiden flight LIKELY any time tomorrow.


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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Rupesh » 06 Feb 2015 10:59

Found a good video on Tejas. Apologies if posted earlier.

Last edited by Rahul M on 06 Feb 2015 11:02, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: put only video id in utube tags. the part AFTER v=

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Indranil » 06 Feb 2015 11:09

^^^ This video has been posted at least five times. :D

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby RKumar » 06 Feb 2015 14:30

putnanja wrote:From tarmak007 on twitter, NCLA-NP2 prototype MAY have first flight tomorrow

Anantha Krishnan M ‏@writetake · 21m21 minutes ago
#BreakingNews FRRB clears NLCA #NP2 for maiden flight. Successfully clears HSTT today. #NP2 maiden flight LIKELY any time tomorrow.



:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby JTull » 06 Feb 2015 18:45

Looking forward to it. Hopefully we'll soon have public info on improvements, such as in landing gear.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Karan M » 06 Feb 2015 19:49

indranilroy wrote:^^^ This video has been posted at least five times. :D


Its part of a series. Three are online..rest missing. :(

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby disha » 06 Feb 2015 23:51

JTull wrote:Looking forward to it. Hopefully we'll soon have public info on improvements, such as in landing gear.


:( The only reason I am not celebrating NLCA-2 is the loss of those umm- kick ass landing gears.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby PratikDas » 07 Feb 2015 00:08

disha wrote:
JTull wrote:Looking forward to it. Hopefully we'll soon have public info on improvements, such as in landing gear.


:( The only reason I am not celebrating NLCA-2 is the loss of those umm- kick ass landing gears.

Is this chaiwala information? I don't think we've seen a picture of NLCA-2 landing gear.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Hobbes » 07 Feb 2015 08:22

Latest update from tarmak007 via Twitter:

#BreakingNews NLCA NP2 first flight LIKELY around 11 am today accompanied by Tejas PV5 fighter. @manoharparrikar @dpidrdo @ShivAroor

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby pralay » 07 Feb 2015 11:04

Livefist ‏@livefist 2m2 minutes ago
While the LCA Navy NP1 was a twin-seat, the #LCANavyNP2 that's about to undertake its first flight is a single-seat type.

Livefist ‏@livefist 5m5 minutes ago
Second prototype of India's first naval fighter, LCA Navy NP2, set for first flight in the next few minutes. On the flightline.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby pralay » 07 Feb 2015 11:12

Anantha Krishnan M @writetake · 17m 17 minutes ago
#BreakingNews NLCA NP-2 ready for take-off. LSP-2 is the chase. @Onedotin @manoharparrikar @dpidrdo

Whats going on exactly who is going to be on chase ?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Vamsee » 07 Feb 2015 12:13

Anantha Krishnan M ‏@writetake 54s54 seconds ago
NLCA NP-2 airborne at 12:28 pm.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby member_22906 » 07 Feb 2015 12:19

I saw it come in to land 5 mnts back

Lungi dance

NP 2 had the yellow primer

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby PratikDas » 07 Feb 2015 12:22

Ajay Sharma wrote:I saw it come in to land 5 mnts back

Lungi dance

NP 2 had the yellow primer

Oh wow, thank you!

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby member_28652 » 07 Feb 2015 12:28

This is great news. Love it.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby PratikDas » 07 Feb 2015 12:45

Ajay Sharma wrote:I saw it come in to land 5 mnts back

Lungi dance

NP 2 had the yellow primer

@writetake: #breakingNews NLCA NP2 lands after successful maiden flight. @OneIndia

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby pralay » 07 Feb 2015 12:46

wow! Awesome! now we wait for pictures and video :D:

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Rahul M » 07 Feb 2015 12:48

excellent !

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Pratyush » 07 Feb 2015 13:44

Good.

Now how do we get the IAF to order 500 jets to replace the MIGs by 2025. Followed by the industrial capacity to make those planes.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby RKumar » 07 Feb 2015 14:21

Good job HAL/ADA, keep it up :D

Congratulations to all involved in the project.


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