LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Post Reply
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by shiv »

One of the things about "cold" is that air becomes more dense, unlike Leh where the altitude restricts that "advantage". In Bangalore - IIRC winter takeoffs allow shorter takeoffs than summer afternoons.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19226
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by NRao »

I think this "cold start" is related to overcoming lubricants that tend to become very viscous as the temp declines and also machine parts that are not lubricated at start up due to the prolonged inactivity. The cranking power (mechanism) needed to overcome both of them is tested.

Also, with each start up the cranking capacity of the battery declines, which poses another challenge.

The cold fuel aspect that Victor alluded to is from a Canadian ref, where a "cold" fuel poses other challenges: ice formation over the wings that have fuel tanks, etc - that would not form ice if the fuel temps were higher. Also, to a much, much lesser extent, if the fuel has any moisture, the fuel line freezes - this normally does not happen now a days - due to fuel additives.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36424
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by SaiK »

ops requirement for mil fighter jet cold start is different from civilian jets. civilian jets can afford time to get to normal temp by preheating and running the engine as startup, parking in sun, take time to clean the wings, etc.. mil jets means ops require very little time to kick start and get going.

cold issues also include ice build ups in wheels, vents, tubes, cowlings and wings.. including cable contractions, .. no time to warm up games.
Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1769
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Khalsa »

shiv wrote:One of the things about "cold" is that air becomes more dense, unlike Leh where the altitude restricts that "advantage". In Bangalore - IIRC winter takeoffs allow shorter takeoffs than summer afternoons.
Correcto

Summers in Leh were alike to the racing pit. The ATC was in possession of some rather awesome information from Met.
Temperature (at time intervals), moisture, cloud cover. They would couple that with the army's fly out load requirements and basically the Ground Crew were leading missions where they were turning around the aircraft in matter of hours if it was to fly out with a load if any.

On a few occasions they exceeded the time or the temperature went up high too fast and the IL-76 would remain on ground rather then send them home to chandigarh with a few men inside.

Those Russian birds love the cold temperature but not the high altitude of Himalayas.

Watching Il-76 take off vs Airbus or Boeing vs the funniest ever.

The 76 would have its nose up at 60 % of the runway and then extremely slowly gain altitude vs
The Western Aircraft would use 99 % of the runway and then go up like a rocket.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36424
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by SaiK »

http://thumbs.media.smithsonianmag.com/ ... pscale.jpg

at -40*F.
Lockheed’s Lightning II undergoes climate testing to prove it can fly under any conditions
The F-35 Lightning II above is getting blasted at the U.S. Air Force 96th Test Wing’s McKinley Climatic Laboratory located at Eglin Air Force Base, Florida.

For four months the aircraft has been subjected to conditions ranging from searing heat to temperatures as low as minus 40 degrees Fahrenheit to make sure its systems continue to function in any kind of extreme weather it might encounter on a mission

Read more: http://www.airspacemag.com/multimedia/w ... z3QizX8Qnr
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by brar_w »

SaiK wrote:http://thumbs.media.smithsonianmag.com/ ... pscale.jpg

at -40*F.
Lockheed’s Lightning II undergoes climate testing to prove it can fly under any conditions
The F-35 Lightning II above is getting blasted at the U.S. Air Force 96th Test Wing’s McKinley Climatic Laboratory located at Eglin Air Force Base, Florida.

For four months the aircraft has been subjected to conditions ranging from searing heat to temperatures as low as minus 40 degrees Fahrenheit to make sure its systems continue to function in any kind of extreme weather it might encounter on a mission

Read more: http://www.airspacemag.com/multimedia/w ... z3QizX8Qnr
See the video here:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6203&start=1880#p1787063
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36424
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by SaiK »

nice video.. -65 to +165F is what it was put into. that is a test!
nirav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2020
Joined: 31 Aug 2004 00:22
Location: Mumbai

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by nirav »

Victor wrote:
BTW, I'm not doubting anyone just because they are DRDO/HAL/ADA whatever. In my first post on this, I registered my doubts about this test involving the main engine partly because of language (ie. soaking in cold) but mostly because it didn't make sense to me (75 sec between starts). Unless more convincing facts become known, I still think the test was only of the JFS.
From where did you you get the '75 sec between starts' figure ?
The press release doesnt mention it.
http://drdo.gov.in/drdo//English/dpi//p ... 012015.pdf
T Suvarna Raju, Chairman, HAL. wrote:The aircraft made three consecutive starts using indigenous gas turbine starter at - (minus)15 degrees with 85 per cent charged battery a few days ago. Prior to the start, the aircraft was cold soaked for 18-20 hours (even 42 hours on one occasion) outside the hangar in Leh and no heating source was used for starting
Link
The tenor of your doubts makes one think that the folks who did the test and called it a technological achievement are just plain gassing.
But maybe the engineers didnt know they were "only testing the JFS" .. :roll:

Victor wrote:Ah, it is cold soaking. Just looked it up and it means the fuel is very cold. When a plane lands after a flight at high altitude, it is said to be cold soaked. The test LCA got cold soaked by merely being parked at high altitude.
I wish you do get a chance to be near a jet which has just come back from a high altitude flight.
Try placing a peck on the engine exhaust thinking "Ah, it has just returned from cold soaking flight. Its the same as being merely being parked at high altitude."
RKumar

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by RKumar »

Any news on NLCA and LCA SP-2 gurus.... I know these are supposed to fly before end of March. But for a change, it will be nice to see these planes flying before 31st March :mrgreen: :twisted:
Victor
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2628
Joined: 24 Apr 2001 11:31

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Victor »

nirav wrote: I wish you do get a chance to be near a jet which has just come back from a high altitude flight.
Try placing a peck on the engine exhaust thinking "Ah, it has just returned from cold soaking flight. Its the same as being merely being parked at high altitude."
Hopefully its just a simple reading comprehension issue but I mentioned that cold soaking refers to the fuel getting cold, not the exhaust.
Shalav
BRFite
Posts: 589
Joined: 17 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Shalav »

Victor wrote:Hopefully its just a simple reading comprehension issue but I mentioned that cold soaking refers to the fuel getting cold, not the exhaust.
from Aircraft Icing Training - Glossary(Nasa)
The wings of aircraft are said to be “cold-soaked” when they contain very cold fuel as a result of having just landed after a flight at high altitude or from having been re-fuelled with very cold fuel. Whenever precipitation falls on a cold-soaked aircraft when on the ground, clear icing may occur. Even in ambient temperatures between -2°C and +15°C, ice or frost can form in the presence of visible moisture or high humidity if the aircraft structure remains at 0°C or below. Clear ice is very difficult to be detected visually and may break loose during or after takeoff. The following factors contribute to cold-soaking: temperature and quantity of fuel in fuel cells, type and location of fuel cells, length of time at high altitude flights, temperature of re-fuelled fuel and time since re-fuelling.

That's the first definition that comes up in chacha and bing - maybe it would help if you read up a little more!
nirav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2020
Joined: 31 Aug 2004 00:22
Location: Mumbai

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by nirav »

Victor wrote:
nirav wrote: I wish you do get a chance to be near a jet which has just come back from a high altitude flight.
Try placing a peck on the engine exhaust thinking "Ah, it has just returned from cold soaking flight. Its the same as being merely being parked at high altitude."
Hopefully its just a simple reading comprehension issue but I mentioned that cold soaking refers to the fuel getting cold, not the exhaust.
HAL chairman said that the LCA was "soaked" upto 42 hours max prior to the test.
Pray tell which IAF fighter can do a high altitude flight for 42 hours :!: :?:

Also, if the test was just for the cold fuel ignition and the starter, im pretty sure there are a lot of industrial refrigeration facilities in India where they could cool the fuel and the starter to -15 degrees and test it ..

But DRDO/HAL have been saying all along, that it was a test of the LCA where the aircraft needed to be cold soaked for extended periods and tested if it can fire up without any external heating.
They managed to do it successfully.

I do think that there is a comprehension issue, as the only person casting doubts about the test and talking about 'cold fuel,just JFS and soaking=high altitude flight' is you.
Victor
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2628
Joined: 24 Apr 2001 11:31

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Victor »

You win. I admit defeat.
putnanja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4665
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: searching for the next al-qaida #3

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by putnanja »

From tarmak007 on twitter, NCLA-NP2 prototype MAY have first flight tomorrow
Anantha Krishnan M ‏@writetake · 21m21 minutes ago
#BreakingNews FRRB clears NLCA #NP2 for maiden flight. Successfully clears HSTT today. #NP2 maiden flight LIKELY any time tomorrow.
Rupesh
BRFite
Posts: 967
Joined: 05 Jul 2008 19:14
Location: Somewhere in South Central India

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Rupesh »

Found a good video on Tejas. Apologies if posted earlier.

Last edited by Rahul M on 06 Feb 2015 11:02, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: put only video id in utube tags. the part AFTER v=
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Indranil »

^^^ This video has been posted at least five times. :D
RKumar

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by RKumar »

putnanja wrote:From tarmak007 on twitter, NCLA-NP2 prototype MAY have first flight tomorrow
Anantha Krishnan M ‏@writetake · 21m21 minutes ago
#BreakingNews FRRB clears NLCA #NP2 for maiden flight. Successfully clears HSTT today. #NP2 maiden flight LIKELY any time tomorrow.
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3118
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by JTull »

Looking forward to it. Hopefully we'll soon have public info on improvements, such as in landing gear.
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20773
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Karan M »

indranilroy wrote:^^^ This video has been posted at least five times. :D
Its part of a series. Three are online..rest missing. :(
disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 8243
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by disha »

JTull wrote:Looking forward to it. Hopefully we'll soon have public info on improvements, such as in landing gear.
:( The only reason I am not celebrating NLCA-2 is the loss of those umm- kick ass landing gears.
PratikDas
BRFite
Posts: 1927
Joined: 06 Feb 2009 07:46
Contact:

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by PratikDas »

disha wrote:
JTull wrote:Looking forward to it. Hopefully we'll soon have public info on improvements, such as in landing gear.
:( The only reason I am not celebrating NLCA-2 is the loss of those umm- kick ass landing gears.
Is this chaiwala information? I don't think we've seen a picture of NLCA-2 landing gear.
Hobbes
BRFite
Posts: 219
Joined: 14 Mar 2011 02:59

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Hobbes »

Latest update from tarmak007 via Twitter:

#BreakingNews NLCA NP2 first flight LIKELY around 11 am today accompanied by Tejas PV5 fighter. @manoharparrikar @dpidrdo @ShivAroor
pralay
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 524
Joined: 24 May 2009 23:07
Contact:

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by pralay »

Livefist ‏@livefist 2m2 minutes ago
While the LCA Navy NP1 was a twin-seat, the #LCANavyNP2 that's about to undertake its first flight is a single-seat type.

Livefist ‏@livefist 5m5 minutes ago
Second prototype of India's first naval fighter, LCA Navy NP2, set for first flight in the next few minutes. On the flightline.
pralay
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 524
Joined: 24 May 2009 23:07
Contact:

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by pralay »

Anantha Krishnan M @writetake · 17m 17 minutes ago
#BreakingNews NLCA NP-2 ready for take-off. LSP-2 is the chase. @Onedotin @manoharparrikar @dpidrdo

Whats going on exactly who is going to be on chase ?
Vamsee
BRFite
Posts: 685
Joined: 16 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Vamsee »

Anantha Krishnan M ‏@writetake 54s54 seconds ago
NLCA NP-2 airborne at 12:28 pm.
member_22906
BRFite
Posts: 305
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by member_22906 »

I saw it come in to land 5 mnts back

Lungi dance

NP 2 had the yellow primer
PratikDas
BRFite
Posts: 1927
Joined: 06 Feb 2009 07:46
Contact:

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by PratikDas »

Ajay Sharma wrote:I saw it come in to land 5 mnts back

Lungi dance

NP 2 had the yellow primer
Oh wow, thank you!
member_28652
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 38
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by member_28652 »

This is great news. Love it.
PratikDas
BRFite
Posts: 1927
Joined: 06 Feb 2009 07:46
Contact:

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by PratikDas »

Ajay Sharma wrote:I saw it come in to land 5 mnts back

Lungi dance

NP 2 had the yellow primer
@writetake: #breakingNews NLCA NP2 lands after successful maiden flight. @OneIndia
pralay
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 524
Joined: 24 May 2009 23:07
Contact:

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by pralay »

wow! Awesome! now we wait for pictures and video :D:
Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17168
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Rahul M »

excellent !
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12196
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Pratyush »

Good.

Now how do we get the IAF to order 500 jets to replace the MIGs by 2025. Followed by the industrial capacity to make those planes.
RKumar

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by RKumar »

Good job HAL/ADA, keep it up :D

Congratulations to all involved in the project.
kmkraoind
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3908
Joined: 27 Jun 2008 00:24

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by kmkraoind »

Anantha Krishnan M @writetake
#NLCA NP-2 on its maiden flight in Bangalore, piloted by Captain Shivnath Dahiya of NFTC. @dpidrdo @manoharparrikar
Image

Anantha Krishnan M @writetake
#NLCA NP-2 after its successful maiden flight in Bangalore. @dpidrdo @manoharparrikar
Image

Anantha Krishnan M @writetake
#NLCA Another pic of NP-2 during its maiden flight in Bangalore. @dpidrdo @manoharparrikar
Image
arunsrinivasan
BRFite
Posts: 353
Joined: 16 May 2009 15:24

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by arunsrinivasan »

Great News.

Noob pooch, what are differences between NP1 & NP2?
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12196
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Pratyush »

It looks like they have taken the NP 1 and covered the back seat cockpit canopy with a black chart paper. Not good looking at all :((
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Indranil »

^^^ This was known to all. It is similar to the Mig-29K in this respect. I can't say whether the LGs are different. But one obvious change is the louvres instead of the blow-in doors on the intake. Also there is a fairing for the gun. NP1 did not have it. The doral intake has been improved from the LSP 7 and LSP8. I like this new one better.
kmkraoind
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3908
Joined: 27 Jun 2008 00:24

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by kmkraoind »

Anantha Krishnan M ‏@writetake
Cheers Captain Shivnath Dahiya! A exclusive pic after today's #NLCA @NP2 maiden flight.

Image
ritesh
BRFite
Posts: 494
Joined: 13 Dec 2005 17:48
Location: Mumbai

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by ritesh »

Pratyush wrote:It looks like they have taken the NP 1 and covered the back seat cockpit canopy with a black chart paper. Not good looking at all :((
Hopefully in Mk2 this would be avoided.
Cheers to IN/ADA/HAL combined to make this happen!!!
sooraj
BRFite
Posts: 1544
Joined: 06 May 2011 15:45

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by sooraj »

best looking LCA ever
Post Reply