LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
RKumar
BRFite
Posts: 1061
Joined: 26 Jul 2009 12:29
Location: Evolution is invention, explosion is destruction.

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby RKumar » 13 Nov 2013 23:30

kvraghavaiah wrote:Has R-73 missile been fired for IOC-2? I saw pictures posted in Facebook by Tarmak and Airforce today, of LCA firing R-73. Not sure if they mean the very first R-73 missile fire or the one planned for now.


No it is not the latest one ... it is a file photo. Awaiting for latest deployment pictures.

Regarding 4 SP in December, how it is possible when IOC-2 is expected just before x-mas? To me it appears, it is again fueling wrong expectation and then ADA/HAL bashing for missing a dead line.

member_27847
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 93
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby member_27847 » 14 Nov 2013 08:02

Rafale is too expensive, bordering on the unaffordable. The price is inflated by serious economic problems in France.

There is no doubt IAF wants Rafale bad, but can the country afford it?

The question ultimately will be - can LCA + Su-30 be enough (in addition to existing inventory)?

The case in point is M777 howitzer. The case fell due to unaffordability. The 145 guns was too small a number. That was just the initial purchase. The lifecycle cost for this gun was just too high.

The success in any field will come with a lot of pain. Software industry is a very good example. People have worked very hard and many projects have been delivered against massive odds, this is why the country now boasts almost 100B of software and ITES exports. Just imagine what would be India's condition if all these people (all private sector, very little support from Govt) have not achieved what they did.

Today the difference between India and Pakistan is nothing but India's IT industry in terms of economy. This is the fact.

The Government lacks resolve. The problem can be cracked if there is resolve. See how India brought the green revolution and got over hunger.

A lot of LCA work is already in private sector. However there is hesitation on part of HAL to give out more work to private sector. HAL must be directed properly, as national interests are much bigger than HAL.

We are very happy with performance of ISRO. Little people know that success of ISRO is heavily built on the contribution of the private sector.

member_27847
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 93
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby member_27847 » 14 Nov 2013 08:52

Indranil Roy,

A huge part of India is without air defence. It is only the Northern and Western parts that have decent air defence.

The Central, Eastern and Southern parts do not.

Even in J&K, where four fighter bases are located (Srinagar, Awantipora, Leh and Udhampur), the number of deployed fighters are quite low compared to need.

If there is ever a two front far (possible due to deep China-Pakistan strategic relationship), India will find a serious lack of air defence assets.

The socialism and apathy that defines the GOI setup is not conducive to effective defence of this country.

It is high time to make corrections. The Chinese have effectively bought the West, as huge money lending by China is propping up failing Western economies. This is a time of grave risk to India, which Indians do not realize.

ArmenT
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 4239
Joined: 10 Sep 2007 05:57
Location: Loud, Proud, Ugly American

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby ArmenT » 14 Nov 2013 09:50

tushar_m wrote:DRDO chief Avinash Chander has indicated earlier this year that the first three-four full rate production Tejas fighters would roll out of the HAL facility in December this year, the first of 40 ordered by the IAF.

source: http://idrw.org/?p=29401

This year?? There's only 48 days left in this year (including all weekends and holidays). How the heck are they going to build one every 12-16 days? Is he counting the already built LSPs in that figure? Or has the production line been already functioning for a while?

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8070
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Pratyush » 14 Nov 2013 09:53

^^^

Garg, if the huge part of India is undefended, then the reason for that is simple. It cannot be attacked using conventional means. So it needs no defense against those means.

If you start defending every inch of the Indian space, you are going to go bankrupt faster then you can type the word "Bankrupt"

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8070
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Pratyush » 14 Nov 2013 09:55

ArmenT wrote:This year?? There's only 48 days left in this year (including all weekends and holidays). How the heck are they going to build one every 12-16 days? Is he counting the already built LSPs in that figure? Or has the production line been already functioning for a while?


One explanation could be that the aircraft's are in advanced stages of construction and will start exiting the line, soon.

Other more likely one is that it is DDM mis reporting as usual.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66607
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Singha » 14 Nov 2013 10:59

"roll out" does not strictly mean its flyable. just as we "launch" ships but then spend 7 yrs fitting it out for IOC. other navies launch ships in a far more complete state. Soko and Japan take around 4 yrs to create a heavy DDG from start to finish.

pragnya
BRFite
Posts: 728
Joined: 20 Feb 2011 18:41

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby pragnya » 14 Nov 2013 11:10

Marten wrote:
ArmenT wrote:This year?? There's only 48 days left in this year (including all weekends and holidays). How the heck are they going to build one every 12-16 days? Is he counting the already built LSPs in that figure? Or has the production line been already functioning for a while?


Armen, would expect that the current production line (i.e. the one used for LSPs) would be the same.
That was the whole point of LSP, right? And perhaps he is talking of LSPs but only one remains to be pushed out, so the others would definitely indicate serial production is in progress now.


Armen T, Marten

it seems the production is already on the existing assembly line. DRDO chief did say 4 SPs will roll out this year. also he beleives the prod rate to be 16-20/yr. what this means is the final config of LCA as SP standard has been worked out (LSP 8 std 'IMO' as it was the result of TP inputs) and prod is underway parallely with IOC trials side by side. also the 'augmented' prod rate seems to have been licked if one notes HAL chief who was on record about augmented prod rate post IOC 2. apparently all issues related to prod have been fixed but QC control needs to be taken care of by the HAL which is bound to crop up and will need a bit of time to lick before everything falls in place.

merlin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2154
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: NullPointerException

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby merlin » 14 Nov 2013 11:14

Roll out is not the end. It then needs to undergo engine ground run, low speed taxi tests, high speed taxi tests and then fly. Ajai Shukla has reported sometime earlier that SP-1 (and SP-2 as well?) was under construction and that was sometime back. So being able to roll out 4 SP airframes should be doable if they are ahead. When will they fly is another matter.

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8070
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Pratyush » 14 Nov 2013 11:23

From the link posted above by pragnya,

HAL will than manufacture 40 GE F-404 engines in two lots of 20 each for Tejas Mk-I for IAF and another 100 GE F-414 engines for Tejas Mk-II.


They men the Aircraft and the not the engines right??

pragnya
BRFite
Posts: 728
Joined: 20 Feb 2011 18:41

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby pragnya » 14 Nov 2013 11:57

Pratyush wrote:From the link posted above by pragnya,

HAL will than manufacture 40 GE F-404 engines in two lots of 20 each for Tejas Mk-I for IAF and another 100 GE F-414 engines for Tejas Mk-II.


They men the Aircraft and the not the engines right??


Pratyush,

i think you are right. it is the aircrafts not the engine and IMO the reporter has mixed up and confused everyone.

fact is HAL is 'not' going to manufacture F404s but F414s under TOT post 2015 or so after the initial deliveries start in 2014. India bought a total of 41 F404 IN20 engines from GE in 2 lots - 17 and 24 and these are being used for LSPs/SPs for the IAF (total 40 - 20 post IOC + 20 post FOC) and even the 4 naval trainers (2 seaters) and 4 naval fighters (single seaters) are going to have the same engine in mark 1 config. a shortfall of 8 engines and some spare engines would be bought along the way i guess.

also begs a question on the 8 F404-F2J3 engines bought for the TDs/PVs. are all used up??

kvraghavaiah
BRFite
Posts: 126
Joined: 16 Feb 2008 17:20
Location: Chennai
Contact:

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby kvraghavaiah » 14 Nov 2013 12:10

Lalmohan wrote:finish on time and get a ride on a tejas (+ve and -ve motivation! i.e. your life is on the line if you mess it up!)

:rotfl:

But I think a lot of people do not feel things made by themselves as exciting.(For eg: Ford factory workers do not feel that ford car is a super car. Housewives do not enjoy the food made my themselves much). At the same time, people trust products made outside and doubt their own abilities. Ride on Tejas may turn out to be less wonderful and more fearful to its makers. Take this on funny side.

putnanja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4421
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: searching for the next al-qaida #3

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby putnanja » 14 Nov 2013 20:39

LCA Flight test update:

From :
LCA-Tejas has completed 2389 Test Flights Successfully. (06-Nov-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-376,LSP1-74,LSP2-286,PV5-36,LSP3-170,LSP4-95,LSP5-229,LSP7-66,NP1-5,LSP8-50)

LCA-Tejas has completed 2395 Test Flights Successfully. (11-Nov-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-376,LSP1-74,LSP2-286,PV5-36,LSP3-170,LSP4-95,LSP5-231,LSP7-66,NP1-5,LSP8-54)

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7405
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Indranil » 15 Nov 2013 01:26

Garg sahab,

I hate writing long posts. Who has the time to read long posts on anybody's views when it is not related to technical details. Anyways here is the last on this from my side. Anymore more, and I would be repeating myself.

First, please allow me to summarize your posts so that I can present my views. You are saying:
1. More LCAs and SU-30s could be bought and maintained at the cost of the MMRCAs. This you say will allow us to field adequate number of aircrafts which are actually needed to guard every part of India.
2. MoD/HAL is jeopardizing national security by tying it to their success and not letting private players come in. Everything that India excels in today (IT, ISRO etc.) is being essentially carried out by the private industry.

Both these points have been discussed in great detail in past (I don't know how many times). I won't even try to paraphrase everything.
1. (a) I will take IAF's judgement on the quantity, capabilities and costs of fighters they need to safeguard India over yours any day. I am sorry, but I have no idea how you arrive at your numbers (till now it is based on we have x number of bases here and y numbers there. Sorry boss, no technical merit there). I don't have the deepest understanding of how IAF arrives at their estimates either. But I have no questions about their qualifications, capability, patriotism and professionalism, and I stress on each adjective there.
(b) Your definition of air defense is unattainable. In fact it is not played out that way. The enemy will have no interest in bombing a nondescript village. And we will never have the capability to guard against attack on every inch of our land. Nobody does. Remember 9/11, how F-16s had to be scrambled. If the enemy tries to invade, you have the capability to stop it to the best of your ability. Also you have the power to reply to any such aggression with greater force. And you won't go and bomb their nondescript village either. You will take out their ability to fight. At decision centers, economic centers, supply lines, factories and airfields. That is how it is played.

2. Your idea of privatization of every field being the panacea to all problems and extended timelines could not be more misplaced.
(a) The time lines that I provided earlier were for all private players (the best from around the world).
(b) It is the nature of the modern aero-industry. So please don't equate it to the IT-industry, where a successful start up can be done with 2 computers and 2 smart guys in a garage. And for your knowledge, we are not at the forefront of research and innovation in IT industry yet. As a counter example, take the hardware industry which requires a huge setup, India has been a complete failure (I hope the rejuvenated push in the past 1 year materializes to something).
(c) ISRO provides a very different case too. There the parts have long lead times and require sophisticated know-how and machinery, but they are never serially produced.

India is moving towards privatization. It is happening slower than what some of us (including me) want, but it is. But to say, starting 2017-2018, produce 50-60 LCAs per year, or start exporting it with Kaveri is practically impossible given today's state. Doesn't matter if it is handled by the private or public sector. You are doing a great disservice to the nation too. First, you are looking down on people who are actually working on national security and passing the word around that your judgement is better than their's. Secondly, you believe and make people believe in goals which are unattainable. Come 2017-2018, you and those people would say we failed to achieve these goals, not-withstanding the best efforts of these men.

manjgu
BRFite
Posts: 1879
Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby manjgu » 15 Nov 2013 07:19

@indranilroy..

quite agree with you on 1a...but on 1b , i think you have missed the points.

we all know no one has capability to guard against attack on each and every inch of ones territory and that air forces dont waste effort bombing some nondescript villages. however thats not abt air defense. the point abt air defense is wether u r able to detect ( and hopefully destroy) enemy ingress at various altitudes across the entire length of ur borders. ( which for the moment is not there on the two most vulnerable fronts ie viz pakistanis and chinese). and ofcourse along the southern coastline. in addition to detecting such an ingress are u also able to defend ur vulnerable points / nerve centres inside ur territory. this is sum total of air defense.

in total agreement with other points !!

tushar_m
BRFite
Posts: 725
Joined: 22 Sep 2010 21:07

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby tushar_m » 15 Nov 2013 07:56

India is moving towards privatization. It is happening slower than what some of us (including me) want, but it is. But to say, starting 2017-2018, produce 50-60 LCAs per year, or start exporting it with Kaveri is practically impossible given today's state. Doesn't matter if it is handled by the private or public sector. You are doing a great disservice to the nation too. First, you are looking down on people who are actually working on national security and passing the word around that your judgement is better than their's. Secondly, you believe and make people believe in goals which are unattainable. Come 2017-2018, you and those people would say we failed to achieve these goals, not-withstanding the best efforts of these men.


Sir i have already explained that time line of 2016-17 will be when we might see a stable kaveri engine on LCA. Also kaveri @ 2016-17 is possible , but only time will tell what will happen as it is difficult to predict future.

no one heard about pragati missile yet it is on display & export in the market , so LCA will be exported with Kaveri (my 1 Billion bet on that).

LCA ready to export & actual export may take a few years (Rafale is selected for over a year now) depending on the negotiations , but we are just spectators & the only thing to do is encourage them for the same (let us learn from US on that).

If 50-60 LCA is required /year than why not ........???(not our decision to make)

P.S i didn't wanted to go back to old topic but i read a reference to my post & just called it (again nothing against anyone on BR)

member_27847
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 93
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby member_27847 » 15 Nov 2013 08:13

Indranil Roy: My post is not specifically for you. So it is OK if you do not want to reply. I hope this Board wants to get opinion of many people.

1. My contention is IAF (and also IA) do not know what they want. Their 'needs' are constantly manipulated by political and external factors. I exhort anybody to give me the mechanism that results in procurement decisions in IAF and IA except whims and fancies of the top few.

2. I am a great military enthusiast and I have spent a great deal of my money and my time to understand the military world. My quest has included studying many books on military history and military strategy. So while I do not serve in Indian military but my views are based on many authoritative narrations.

3. The jobs of IAF are primarily two - 1. Force protection (that is protecting Indian Army from air attacks), 2. Protection of vital economic, political, and military assets. The airbases have been planned and money has been sunk into physical infrastructure to meet these objectives. What has happened over the years is improper aircraft acquisitions and other problems (like maintenance) that have resulted in sub-optimal utilization of air bases.

4. Indian government has a habit of destroying value rather than creating value. Whatever industry segment GOI gets into, is converted into most inefficient non-competitive world. As defence production was reserved for State sector soon after independence, we do not know how private players would have done, as private players have not been utilized. However whatever evidence exists says that things would have been much better with private players.

5. IAF is not in a position to defend large parts of India as per the objectives that I mentioned in point (3). This is a FACT. No amount of argument can change that.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16241
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby NRao » 15 Nov 2013 08:29

I am sure you would find a great deal of support if you just made the argument that the GoI is a nut case. But ..

IAF is not in a position to defend large parts of India as per the objectives that I mentioned in point


What exactly do you mean by that?

First, in your view, is it historical or did it change for the worse at some point in time?

Second, what is "large parts"?

TIA.

(Kindly take teh discussion to the Indian Military Aviation thread.)

member_27847
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 93
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby member_27847 » 15 Nov 2013 08:46

NRao: I will surely take this discussion to another thread or a new thread. No problem.

Mr Indranil Roy mentioned 'hardware industry'. Actually this industry is a prime example of how GOI destroyed the nascent hardware industry in India. Mr Roy forgets companies like ITI, SCL etc. The telecom was completely in State sector till a few years back.

The huge parts like Electric supply, ports, public infrastructure like roads and trains etc. that are critical to manufacturing are all were or still are in public sector.

So blaming private sector is easy but is not supported by evidence.

Even auto production etc. have done very well when the government has allowed it to function.

rajanb
BRFite
Posts: 1947
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 16:56

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby rajanb » 15 Nov 2013 08:53

putnanja wrote:LCA Flight test update:

From :
LCA-Tejas has completed 2389 Test Flights Successfully. (06-Nov-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-376,LSP1-74,LSP2-286,PV5-36,LSP3-170,LSP4-95,LSP5-229,LSP7-66,NP1-5,LSP8-50)

LCA-Tejas has completed 2395 Test Flights Successfully. (11-Nov-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-376,LSP1-74,LSP2-286,PV5-36,LSP3-170,LSP4-95,LSP5-231,LSP7-66,NP1-5,LSP8-54)


If we notice the previous posts on the Flight updates, I noticed that LSP-8 was really being pushed wrt number of flights compared with others. And, therefore, would be a template, for the SPs under manufacture/assembly.

The tech evolutionary process is going to be a continuous one. But a few questions do remain, which I hope would elicit a response from the gyanis here:

a) Whatever happened to LSP 6? And the spin recovery tests? Are they going wait till LSP8 is in its final IOC2 config, uprate LSP6 to that level, and then do the tests?

b) On the lightning test front, I am fairly confident that the various components would be getting tested before being fitted into an a/c. What would remain is the test of the full a/c. Seeing what the weather has been here in BLR, over the last 8 months, and the seeming care to ensure that no mishaps occur during flight tests, that would seem logical. Also the structure of the composite parts would be engineered with the necessary flow of static discharge?

c) Rolling out 4 SPs is fine, but are anyone of them trainers?

d) On the armament detachment front I am sure HAL has a lot of experience in mating different systems to previous a/c so this should not be a problem.

e) Any news about the AoA?

Would appreciate the gyanis comments.

Points to mull over.

pragnya
BRFite
Posts: 728
Joined: 20 Feb 2011 18:41

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby pragnya » 15 Nov 2013 10:06

just my thoughts. may be Kartik, Karan M can explain better.

rajanb wrote:If we notice the previous posts on the Flight updates, I noticed that LSP-8 was really being pushed wrt number of flights compared with others. And, therefore, would be a template, for the SPs under manufacture/assembly.


yes. i too think so because it is the culmination of a continuous and possibly final evolution based on TP inputs.

The tech evolutionary process is going to be a continuous one. But a few questions do remain, which I hope would elicit a response from the gyanis here:

a) Whatever happened to LSP 6? And the spin recovery tests? Are they going wait till LSP8 is in its final IOC2 config, uprate LSP6 to that level, and then do the tests?


no idea there on the tests involving LSP6. but considering these would mostly be related to CLAW limiting/relaxing, should not be an issue - tweaking the same in the LSP/SPs when the parameters are known when the tests are done IMO.

b) On the lightning test front, I am fairly confident that the various components would be getting tested before being fitted into an a/c. What would remain is the test of the full a/c. Seeing what the weather has been here in BLR, over the last 8 months, and the seeming care to ensure that no mishaps occur during flight tests, that would seem logical. Also the structure of the composite parts would be engineered with the necessary flow of static discharge?


this again should not be a problem considering ADA has been substantially testing both the airframes/components right from the TD stage. a mishap which was unrelated to lightning test perse did occur in 2010 but should have no effect on the testing process itself.

c) Rolling out 4 SPs is fine, but are anyone of them trainers?


no idea.

d) On the armament detachment front I am sure HAL has a lot of experience in mating different systems to previous a/c so this should not be a problem.


yes. i concur with you.

e) Any news about the AoA?


as of sept 2011, they were aiming from 20-22 to 26-28 deg but not sure if that has happened.

..........................................................

btw was this posted??

Crucial EW trials on Tejas next month

October 28, 2013: Following successful weapon release trials in Jamnagar in July, the Tejas programme is speeding towards another crucial milestone with electronic warfare trials to take place in November.

The entire gamut of electronic warfare systems on board the first prototype vehicle PV-1 will be put through a series of tests towards operational clearance. Systems that will be checked out include radar warning receivers, jamming suites, self-protection suites, electronic countermeasures (ECM) and other systems. The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is in the process of checking out the PV-1 to ensure that it is ready in all respects for the electronic warfare (EW) flight trials. The airframe flew first in November 2003, and was replaced in the test programme after less than 250 flights as a result of consistent improvements in the later prototypes and limited series production airframes.

manjgu
BRFite
Posts: 1879
Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby manjgu » 15 Nov 2013 10:36

@Garg

1) not totally correct...though often it is the case. many defence accquisitions are surely political decisions..( like purchases from US and USSR...and given the amount of kickbacks!!)
2) very well
3) there is another task of IAF...to carry out war in enemy territory ( which u have clearly missed in ur reply). sub optimal utilization is a fairly generic statement and is very difficult to quantify. a case in point is probably building up infrastructure/capacity for M2000 accquisitions and not buying the planned numbers? I wonder what is india is optimally utilized??
4) quite right
5) yes, its true given the enemies we face espicially on our eastern borders and also on western borders. But for that matter which country can ensure a 100% protection of its airspace? and i am not talking abt USA.. ( though not sure how will it cope with a missile attack?).

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7633
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby rohitvats » 15 Nov 2013 16:53

Garg wrote: 1. My contention is IAF (and also IA) do not know what they want. Their 'needs' are constantly manipulated by political and external factors. I exhort anybody to give me the mechanism that results in procurement decisions in IAF and IA except whims and fancies of the top few.<SNIP>


Please give example of the above for both IAF and IA along with some details of why you think they're incorrect.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16769
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Rahul M » 15 Nov 2013 16:57

not in the LCA thread please. :(

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36303
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby SaiK » 18 Nov 2013 02:30

was reading off the Boeing p8i headlines searching for in-line production, and I think HAL can think on similar in-line production model

last year they speed up their production model
http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/news ... l?page=all

lots of inputs for HAL

The old process, assembling wings on edge in static jigs, was slower. The new horizontal position enables workers to more easily drill and fasten the top skins on the spars, with help from new automated equipment. Huge custom machines made by Electroimpact of Mukilteo drill and fasten the bottom skins of the wings.

The horizontal build line technology is so proprietary that cameras were allowed in the area only if pointed away from the towering blue Electroimpact drilling-and-fastening machine

HAL should not get bogged down on boeing model, and it is not any technique our engineers haven't heard or can be done. in fact concurrent engineering is something dr. saraswat keeps harping on.

I think it is the right time HAL takes up, as it is also taking up 10% equity disinvestment .
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/290 ... stake.html

significant learning process, and the right technology and process in place can make it keep head straight and align with heavy weights like boeing. lot of process corrections needs to happen.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19885
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Philip » 19 Nov 2013 18:08

Look,privatisation in defence is not happening holistically.It is happening upon the DPSU's terms! I was recently looking at a component for one of our futuristic projects made by a pvt. manufacturer,long time supplier to the govt.The MD was "fed up" with the DRDO who "only talk,talk" .Some of the wares of this co. are exported and very possibly return to India as key components in certain systems that we import! Our DPSU shipyards do not want L&T and Pipapav to build major warships and subs on their own,despite the delays being experienced.Aviation project delays is another thesis altogether.The LCA being a prime example.

Unless,as with the LTA,certain projects are specifically reserved for pvt. industry,where large numbers are assured,we will still be hobbling towards self-sufficiency decades from now.One area where pvt. industry should be given a free rein is in the UAV/UCAV development,where hundreds ,if not thousands of UAVs of all types and sizes are required for not only the armed forces but paras and the police too.Our strength in IT/software will be put to good use here.There is a def-expo on UAVs in Delhi shortly and this is an arena where pvt. industry can also find good export orders.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16241
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby NRao » 19 Nov 2013 18:51

1) They are ALL solvable problems. (If Russia and the US can solve them so can India provided a proper environment is created to solve them. Heck India has solved the proverbial rocket science issues)

3) We have been posting the same rant since 1997ish or so.

3) Over the past 15 years or so the people who have worked (without proper pay I bet) have built a critical mass and in the process have solved some critical problems and produced leading edge technologies - has been done, can be done

4) Someone (way?) out there does not want the problem in #1 solved

5) It is human weakness that needs to be overcome and not a technical one

symontk
BRFite
Posts: 900
Joined: 01 Nov 2001 12:31
Location: Bangalore

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby symontk » 21 Nov 2013 14:08

One LCA with white tanks took 3 low passes over Marathahalli around an hour ago

vina
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6046
Joined: 11 May 2005 06:56
Location: Doing Nijikaran, Udharikaran and Baazarikaran to Commies and Assorted Leftists

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby vina » 21 Nov 2013 16:47

Symontk wrote:One LCA with white tanks took 3 low passes over Marathahalli around an hour ago

Yes. Also buzzed me at Jayanagar /J.P Nagar areas. Two large drop tanks and two missiles on the wing tips. Looked sleek and fast.

putnanja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4421
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: searching for the next al-qaida #3

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby putnanja » 26 Nov 2013 20:44

LCA Flight test update:

From :
LCA-Tejas has completed 2395 Test Flights Successfully. (11-Nov-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-376,LSP1-74,LSP2-286,PV5-36,LSP3-170,LSP4-95,LSP5-231,LSP7-66,NP1-5,LSP8-54)

To:
LCA-Tejas has completed 2418 Test Flights Successfully. (25-Nov-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-376,LSP1-74,LSP2-287,PV5-36,LSP3-171,LSP4-99,LSP5-236,LSP7-70,NP1-5,LSP8-62)

krishnan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7345
Joined: 07 Oct 2005 12:58
Location: 13° 04' N , 80° 17' E

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby krishnan » 28 Nov 2013 06:03

Image

flight test graph, they have revamped the ada website, looks more profestional now

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19885
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Philip » 29 Nov 2013 17:15

The Dec. deadline is fast approaching.AKA has said "no more extensions".Is there any hint of progress?

raj-ji
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 67
Joined: 25 Oct 2010 19:31

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby raj-ji » 29 Nov 2013 21:52

Garg wrote:Indranil Roy: My post is not specifically for you. So it is OK if you do not want to reply. I hope this Board wants to get opinion of many people.

1. My contention is IAF (and also IA) do not know what they want. Their 'needs' are constantly manipulated by political and external factors. I exhort anybody to give me the mechanism that results in procurement decisions in IAF and IA except whims and fancies of the top few.

2. I am a great military enthusiast and I have spent a great deal of my money and my time to understand the military world. My quest has included studying many books on military history and military strategy. So while I do not serve in Indian military but my views are based on many authoritative narrations.

3. The jobs of IAF are primarily two - 1. Force protection (that is protecting Indian Army from air attacks), 2. Protection of vital economic, political, and military assets. The airbases have been planned and money has been sunk into physical infrastructure to meet these objectives. What has happened over the years is improper aircraft acquisitions and other problems (like maintenance) that have resulted in sub-optimal utilization of air bases.


Further to your third point. Protection is not only done with fighters. Radars and SAM systems can accomplish this. I agree with you that more has to be done in this area. Radar and SAM coverage in key areas does need attention. Using fighters only is missing a big piece of the puzzle.

About your first two points. The IAF and IA do know what they want because it is their lives on the line. This is not theory, they have to put their lives on the line, and the equipment they have can mean the difference of whether they come home or not. So I too do not doubt their expertise on this.

But if you had to take this based on logic and if we are to play arm chair fighter pilots, here is a scenario for you regarding the Tejas vs Rafale. If you have to take one fighter up against the best enemy fighter. What would you take. The battle proven Rafale, with YouTube clips of it locking on a Raptor in a dogfight no less. Or the unproven Tejas which is still being tested. Remember your life is on the line, this is not an exercise. Being patriotic is one thing, being practical and realistic is another.

It has been discussed over and over. Comparing the Tejas to the Rafale is a disservice to the Tejas. You are hampering the efforts of rolling out the Tejas in good numbers. It is an unrealistic expectation to pit the first fighter rolling out of HAL against the premier front line fighter from Dassault. This is an unrealistic and unhelpful comparison. If your objective was to support the Tejas, you are doing the opposite.

The IAF needs the Tejas and in good numbers. Compare it to other light fighters if you want, but the objective is to make it better than the best version of the Mig 21 for now. Roll it out, fine tune it, and then start competing with other fighters. When the MK2, MK3,... roll out for the Tejas then compare it to the likes of the Rafale. At least then there will be more info about its capabilities against other aircraft.

On other threads you can compare the Rafale to other medium fighters like the Mig 29. That would be a better comparison.

member_28041
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 47
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby member_28041 » 29 Nov 2013 23:24

Timeline of development of Rafale and LCA is given below.

Rafale
-------

1) Design Started : 1978
2) Design completed : 1983
3) First Flight : 1986
4) Introduction to service : 2001

Time Between First flight and Introduction to service : 15 years
Time Between design and introduction : 23 years


LCA
----

1) Design Started : 1987
2) Design Completed : 1990
3) First Flight : 2001
4) Introduction to service : 2014

Time Between First flight and Introduction to service : 13 years
Time Between design and introduction : 23 years


This shows the development time taken for LCA is comparable to any other current generation aircraft.
In fact it is really amazing seeing the indian effort considering we had to start everything almost from scratch after Marut and the sanctions etc. after 1998.
The whole development is being done at a fraction of the cost of Rafale. Total amount spent well under $2B.
Contrast this with France who were the leaders in the field at that time with aircraft's like mirage 2000 flying.

Such capabilities should not go to waste and all effort must be put to develop AMCA. Last i heard the cost to purchase rafale was $20B.
Hope we could put at least a fraction of that into developing AMCA.

Nikhil T
BRFite
Posts: 1042
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 06:48
Location: RAW HQ, Lodhi Road

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Nikhil T » 30 Nov 2013 03:56

^^ Agree with the stats. Though, my grouse is that (/rantOn) team HAL-ADA-DRDO continuously presented unreasonable deadlines and then threw out new ones as time passed by. And most of this happened post the first flight in 2001. IOC/FOC process has been so fluid that no more claims can be accepted at face value. (/rantOff)
Fingers still crossed for a Dec '13 IOC II and Dec 2014 FOC.

chackojoseph
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4297
Joined: 01 Mar 2010 22:42
Location: From Frontier India
Contact:

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby chackojoseph » 30 Nov 2013 05:27

10 years of Sanctions. Else timeline in comparable.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36303
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby SaiK » 30 Nov 2013 07:58

well LCA and Rafale technology stacks, capabilities are not exactly comparable.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16241
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby NRao » 30 Nov 2013 08:33

Dunno. The LCA MK1 stack could be more "advanced" than the *Rafale "MK1"* stack. You are looking at a gen 3/4 Rafale right now, which never existed when it first came out.

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3035
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby kit » 30 Nov 2013 17:16

Well wonder whether a second production line for Tejas in the private sector might be feasible ?

rajanb
BRFite
Posts: 1947
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 16:56

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby rajanb » 30 Nov 2013 18:27

<SELF DELETED>


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: brar_w, chiru, JayS and 59 guests