Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Postby HKumar » 06 Nov 2014 04:53

^^

wasn't MOM moved away so it be protected behind the red planet when the comet came by?

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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Postby SSSalvi » 06 Nov 2014 07:29

^^^
With its 80000 kms apoapsis where could MOM hide?

Image

Siding Spring is just behind Mars in this graphic. Notice how Curiosity, Odyssey, Maven and M Exp could arrange protection by a small change in orbit delay.

Such change was NOT possible in MOM orbit. MOM was some 12000 kms from Mars and was moving away from it at close encounter time. MOM and SS were opposite sides of Mars some 3 hours before 'close encounter'.

My query to MOM team on 'how will they hide such a big orbit' posted on their facebook page is still unanswered.

BTW, close encounter does not mean closest encounter.. the chance of damage remains at least an hour before and after that point.

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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Postby SaiK » 06 Nov 2014 08:02

what proximity we were talking ahead of siding spring? let us assume we never had a course/orbit change [and btw, what is the fuel remaining now?].

another question is if the distances were quite enough to feel safe, and it might be only those gas particles (H,O) we were concerned, then how it could have harmed the MOM?

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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Postby PratikDas » 06 Nov 2014 10:37

ToI: Mars Orbiter Mission begins collecting science data
Srinivas Laxman,TNN | Nov 6, 2014, 07.26 AM IST
MUMBAI: The Mars Orbiter Mission (MOM) has kicked off its science phase and its five payloads are gathering data in full swing, said director of Isro's Space Application Centre, Kiran Kumar.

The MOM entered the Martian orbit on September 24 and made history by achieving success on its maiden flight. Google celebrated the first month the orbiter's entry to Mars with a doodle on October 24.

Speaking to TOI on Wednesday, which marked the first anniversary of the MOM launch on November 5, 2013, Kumar said the data downloaded from the spacecraft at the Indian Deep Space Network in Byalalu, off the BangaloreMysore highway, is being transmitted to the principal investigators for analysis.

Kurian Mathew, principal investigator of the Methane Sensor For Mars, said: "We are analyzing data from both from Mars and comet Siding Spring. We will highlight them at an appropriate moment."

The Methane Sensor For Mars has been described as the "bridegroom" of all the payloads as its findings are expected to have huge ramifications. Indian Space Science Data Centre's general manager J D Rao could not hide his excitement. "We are anxiously waiting for the results," he told TOI on Wednesday.

The quality of the pictures taken by the Mars Colour Camera in the last one-and-half month has attracted considerable praise from across the world. However, for some unexplained reason the first anniversary of MOM's launch on Wednesday remained a quite affair with no mention of it in Isro's Facebook and Twitter accounts.

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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Postby HKumar » 06 Nov 2014 19:10

SSSalvi wrote:^^^
With its 80000 kms apoapsis where could MOM hide?

Siding Spring is just behind Mars in this graphic. Notice how Curiosity, Odyssey, Maven and M Exp could arrange protection by a small change in orbit delay.

Such change was NOT possible in MOM orbit. MOM was some 12000 kms from Mars and was moving away from it at close encounter time. MOM and SS were opposite sides of Mars some 3 hours before 'close encounter'.

My query to MOM team on 'how will they hide such a big orbit' posted on their facebook page is still unanswered.

BTW, close encounter does not mean closest encounter.. the chance of damage remains at least an hour before and after that point.



http://www.planetary.org/blogs/guest-blogs/2014/1009-mars-orbiter-mission-shifts.html

This blog claims otherwise. About 2kg of fuel was used up to change MOM's high alt to 72K.

The distancing of MOM from Siding (at least 140,000 km) makes its highly unlikely to have participated in any "real" observation of the comet. It explains the lack of images - visual or others.

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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Postby SSSalvi » 06 Nov 2014 20:03

^^^
Why can't ISRO declare the practical reason on why images could not be obtained if that was the case?

Earlier post says Kiran Kumar/Kurian Mathew seem to have obtained some images. It is really contradictory.

BTW, Its a global cry. Everywhere people are anxious to get info and get frustrated due to non availability of info .

Read comments here about Rosetta mission : http://blogs.esa.int/rosetta/2014/09/24 ... for-20-km/

A glimpse from comments section :)
I understand that publishing scientific Information takes some time and the priority rights of authors also have to be considered. But ... it should be possible to at least show us 1 or 2 new OSIRIS Images ..

Please give us pictures!

Well, where is the picture from osiris....?

Eventually the whole data set will be released publicly so others can take a crack at it, but for now we only get what they feel like releasing. If I had it my way, it would all be public right away like Cassini, but the policy for this mission is hardly unusual.

Last edited by SSSalvi on 06 Nov 2014 20:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Postby member_28108 » 06 Nov 2014 20:39

One thing is that the program has now been handed over from the launching agency of ISRO to ISTRAC. We stopped getting updates the moment that changeover occurred.

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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Postby member_28108 » 06 Nov 2014 20:47

Kurian Mathew, principal investigator of the Methane Sensor For Mars, said: "We are analyzing data from both from Mars and comet Siding Spring. We will highlight them at an appropriate moment."

Kurian Mathews had mentioned they will release further data only after multiple measurements and re-verification so probably they are being careful as the reputation, quality and integrity of ISRO's observations will be under intense scrutiny.

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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Postby SSSalvi » 06 Nov 2014 20:51

^^^
True that now the MOM is in its final destination, the 'Project' mode is over and 'Operations' mode has started.
ISTRAC may be operations directorate but the scientific team remains same and ISTRAC will provide images to them. Unless there are reasons they should at least brief about the good news of 'aaal is weeeelll'

( added later .. OK we take Kurien statement as 'all is well' signal )

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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Postby HKumar » 06 Nov 2014 20:55

^^^

Not to parse every word but the fact the statement was made by the PI for methane sensor indicates measurements are not visual/thermal images.

images don't need verification or re-verifications IMO.

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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Postby member_28108 » 06 Nov 2014 21:57

HKumar wrote:^^^

Not to parse every word but the fact the statement was made by the PI for methane sensor indicates measurements are not visual/thermal images.

images don't need verification or re-verifications IMO.


These sensors can generate"Images". He mentioned the necessity for repeated integration of measurements.When a pixel by pixel map is generated they can generate a "methane" image of Mars. MAVEN did release some spectroscopic images(I think of hydrogen) of the same using sensors.

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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Postby HKumar » 06 Nov 2014 22:07

^^^

Talking about images (visual/thermal but any kind will do ) of Siding Comet.

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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Postby Amber G. » 06 Nov 2014 23:50

NASA will host a media teleconference at Noon EST (10:30 Pm India Time) on Friday, Nov. 7, to provide initial science observations of Siding Spring's close flyby of Mars and the impact on the Martian atmosphere.

MAVEN, Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter (MRO), and a radar instrument aboard the European Space Agency's Mars Express's first close-up studies of the comet is included.

Briefing participants include:

Jim Green, director, Planetary Science Division, NASA Headquarters, Washington
Nick Schneider, instrument lead for MAVEN's Imaging Ultraviolet Spectrograph, University of Colorado, Boulder
Mehdi Benna, instrument scientist for MAVEN's Neutral Gas and Ion Mass Spectrometer, NASA Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Maryland
Don Gurnett, lead investigator on the Mars Advanced Radar for Subsurface and Ionosphere Sounding instrument on Mars Express, University of Iowa, Iowa City
Alan Delamere, co-investigator for MRO's HiRISE instrument, Delamere Support Services, Boulder, Colorado.

Visuals (posted at the start of the event ) will be at:

http://www.nasa.gov/mars/telecon

Audio of the teleconference will be streamed live at:

http://www.nasa.gov/newsaudio

The event will also be streamed, with visuals used by the participants, at:

http://www.ustream.tv/nasajpl2

****

The Compact Imaging Spectrometer for Mars (CRISM) related data:
CRISM recorded imaging data in 107 different wavelengths, showing the inner part of coma, (surrounding the comet's nucleus)

( images from CRISM presenting three of the recorded wavelengths are online at:) http://mars.nasa.gov/multimedia/images/?ImageID=6692

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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Postby Amber G. » 07 Nov 2014 00:58

SaiK wrote:what proximity we were talking ahead of siding spring? let us assume we never had a course/orbit change [and btw, what is the fuel remaining now?].

another question is if the distances were quite enough to feel safe, and it might be only those gas particles (H,O) we were concerned, then how it could have harmed the MOM?


This has been answered before, but FWIW - few points -
- About 2kg fuel was used for orbit correction. (Don't have exact details -- what exactly was achieved -- except that orbit was changed so that MoM will have less flux of comet tail particles)

- SS at its closest was about 130,000 Km from Mars, MoM was on in elliptical orbit (perigee about 80,000 Km). (One can calculate the closest distance by looking at the orbit(s)given by S^3)

- As far as harm to MoM - the speed of dust particles in coma, wrt to MoM, is 50-60 Km/sec! (100 times the speed of bullet).. so even a single particle collision can be deadly. Remember KE= (1/2)mv^2...(Simple calculation will show this is equivalent to 600 times TNT of equal weight!).
(This is why KE weapons do not need any explosive charges .. if you hit an incoming missile with antimissile which is traveling at high speed (say even 10 Km/sec - relative speed ) adding TNT or explosive is not necessary)

- Fortunately the flux of particles of SS was very low, so chance that a particle will hit MoM was of the order of 1 in a million.

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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Postby SSSalvi » 07 Nov 2014 03:06

Tomorrow ( 7th Nov ..1500 GMT ( 2030IST ) ) .. there is a webinar on Rosetta lander Philae landing event on 12th Nov.

https://plus.google.com/events/cjeue6sj ... o27mtcvb4g

Posting here because it is ESA event and not high profile NASA event

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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Postby Amber G. » 07 Nov 2014 07:01


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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Postby shiv » 07 Nov 2014 07:44

Amber G. wrote:- As far as harm to MoM - the speed of dust particles in coma, wrt to MoM, is 50-60 Km/sec! (100 times the speed of bullet).. so even a single particle collision can be deadly. Remember KE= (1/2)mv^2...(Simple calculation will show this is equivalent to 600 times TNT of equal weight!).

Interesting. But I guess a dust particle with that much energy will simply punch a hole through something - losing just enough energy to punch that hole and carrying on with the remaining energy on the other side.

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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Postby Amber G. » 08 Nov 2014 04:00

shiv wrote:
Amber G. wrote:- As far as harm to MoM - the speed of dust particles in coma, wrt to MoM, is 50-60 Km/sec! (100 times the speed of bullet).. so even a single particle collision can be deadly. Remember KE= (1/2)mv^2...(Simple calculation will show this is equivalent to 600 times TNT of equal weight!).

Interesting. But I guess a dust particle with that much energy will simply punch a hole through something - losing just enough energy to punch that hole and carrying on with the remaining energy on the other side.


But..a "hole" may not be healthy, specially if it goes through some critical component.. :mrgreen:

Yes, the figure I estimated for KE is for totally inelastic collision (no bouncing /hole etc) to give some idea.
How massive (how many particles) the colliding particles and where they hit obviously makes a lot of difference.

(Obviously there are lot of studies, on how the particles will do the damage, to understand the risk.. the size of particles vary a lot from .. and micro gram size particles do make some damage)

... BTW, the KE weapons (without any explosives as the KE was so much that putting any explosives will not increase significantly the destructive power) were part of ABM defense- highly classified at some time. These were called smart rocks and "brilliant pebbles" (No I ma not making this up .. look it up in google)

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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Postby Viv S » 08 Nov 2014 04:22

Amber G. wrote:... BTW, the KE weapons (without any explosives as the KE was so much that putting any explosives will not increase significantly the destructive power) were part of ABM defense- highly classified at some time. These were called smart rocks and "brilliant pebbles" (No I ma not making this up .. look it up in google)

I don't think its classified. The THAAD, SM-3 and PAC-3 are all hit-to-kill systems. I think the DRDO's also experimenting with a hit-to-kill approach (AAD IIRC).

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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Postby Amber G. » 08 Nov 2014 05:49

^^^Yes, the idea is not secret ..What I meant was that it is not classified now, but from what I know, it was in 80's.. (look at the odd looking names like "brilliant pebbles"). The science of course is not secret, and declassified versions of reports are there in .gov/mil archives... but some part are still (naturally) classified...

Meanwhile, China is putting its Mars probe on display at air show next week as it hopes to catch up with India's successful MoM..

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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Postby Amber G. » 09 Nov 2014 09:43

Some surprises from Siding Spring observation data ...

... Lot of shooting stars (meteoroid shower) in the Mar's atmosphere..
...The comet’s dust slammed into the upper atmosphere, creating a massive and dense ionospheric layer, and changing the chemistry of the upper atmosphere
... ionized magnesium in the atmosphere of Mars. Also iron, sodium, potassium, chromium, manganese, nickel and zinc.

NASA dazzled, puzzled by comet Siding Spring data Comet

Some excerpts
Thousands of shooting stars per hour scraped a yellowed Martian sky last month as a comet blazed through the red planet's atmosphere at 35 miles per second.

Unfortunately, no one was there to experience the spectacular pass of Siding Spring on Oct. 19, and the remote images and data from the close encounter were not nearly so dramatic.

Still, the space agency has learned surprising things from its extremely rare observations of a comet composed of the matter that formed the inner solar system, scientists said Friday.

“The comet’s dust slammed into the upper atmosphere, creating a massive and dense ionospheric layer, and literally changed the chemistry of the upper atmosphere” of Mars, said Jim Green, director of the NASA Planetary Science Division.

...
But data took several days to reach Earth.

“We were all wondering what we would see, realizing that the comet had faded in intensity, wondering if we would see anything at all; we’re all leaning into our screens,” said astrophysicist Nick Schneider or the University of Colorado, who is in charge of MAVEN's Imaging Ultraviolet Spectrograph.


Amid the routine, background emissions, scientists suddenly saw “this booming signal" of ionized magnesium in the atmosphere of Mars. They also detected iron, sodium, potassium, chromium, manganese, nickel and zinc -- the unambiguous signatures of a comet, Schneider said.

By looking at the brightness and extent of the ultraviolet emissions, researchers estimated that "a few tons,” of dust “covered at least a hemisphere of the planet," said Schneider. "So it was not an isolated impact," he added.


“It’s looking like that meteor shower must have had thousands of shooting start per hour - possibly, what’s called a meteor storm,” Schneider said. "It must have been a spectacular meteor shower on Mars that night.”

The sodium probably would have left a yellow afterglow visible to the human eye, Schneider said.

NASA did capture some high-resolution images, and it will have to sort through them, pixel by pixel, to figure out the size of the comet's nucleus and its rotation period.


“In fact, it’s a little surprising how quickly some of these materials are disappearing,” Schneider said. “We think the chemistry of Mars might be a little different.”

The metals are expected to condense in what’s known as meteoric smoke, a phenomenon seen on Earth, Schneider said. On Mars, that smoke could affect the planet’s interaction with sunlight and cause the formation of high-altitude clouds, according to Schneider.

“It’s possible it could change the chemistry of the atmosphere, just from the addition of these new ingredients,” he said.

Had NASA not sent its satellites to the lee side of the planetary brush-by, they most likely would have been destroyed by what turned out to be a far broader onslaught of dust particles than the space agency initially had anticipated.

“It makes me very happy that we decided to put our spacecraft on the other side of Mars,” Green said. “I really believe that hiding them like that saved them, and gave us a fabulous opportunity to make these observations.”



s


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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Postby akashganga » 12 Nov 2014 16:46


Congratulations ISRO for some nice visuals of the comet. Good job.

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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Postby member_28108 » 12 Nov 2014 18:12

Nice to see the images. Seems there is a tail forming in one of the images.

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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Postby SaiK » 12 Nov 2014 19:50


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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Postby HKumar » 12 Nov 2014 20:44

^^^

That is from Hubble http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C/2013_A1. The lazy a$$es in Zee News didn't bother to credit correct for the photos.

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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Postby Amber G. » 12 Nov 2014 23:39


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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Postby SaiK » 13 Nov 2014 08:29

^[that is artist's view] pl visit the other intl. space thread for more real pics

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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Postby Vishnu » 13 Nov 2014 09:51

I had the entire Mangalyaan team in our studios for a very special programme last night at 9 pm ...

Enjoy ....


http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/ndtv-s ... ion/344672

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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Postby Indranil » 13 Nov 2014 11:10

^^^ Nice program. And a much needed one. Please keep up the good work. It was a welcome change from the soap opera that news channels have turned into.

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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Postby JE Menon » 13 Nov 2014 11:26

^^soap opera? Wholesale fishmarket is more like it...

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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Postby Aditya_V » 13 Nov 2014 11:31



Why aren't ususal critics from BBC etc. who criticize ISRO etc. praising this. What scientific value does this bring to humanity. lets shutdown ESA.

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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Postby Indranil » 13 Nov 2014 11:40

^^^ It is better that we don't stoop down to that level. Well done ESA. Humanity took a step forward in space exploration today.

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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Postby JE Menon » 13 Nov 2014 11:42

^^Exactly right. It is a positive thing for all, for humanity - and it is something for the EU to be proud about. And it needs something to be proud about in these gloomy angst-ridden days. So yes, let's not belittle this tremendously difficult achievement and hope they do better, and we do better. There is plenty to do in space for everyone to accumulate enough "firsts".

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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Postby rsingh » 13 Nov 2014 17:36

What about child poverty in Europe?
Cancer level is worse then Bangladesh.
Clean drinking water is a big lie. Europeans are forced to buy packed drinking water. Tap water is bad even for washing machine. One has to add filtering machine to the water supply.
What about ROMA? EU could have solved the housing problem for Roma by using 1.5 billions Euros. Or with that money EU could hire more policemen to break up pedophile rings.

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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Postby vishvak » 13 Nov 2014 17:43

Exactly, let us not talk about issues that could have been successfully tackled, at least to a large extent, by channeling monies to social causes such as child poverty, pedophile rings, Roma housing or even clean drinking water. Good job EU people.

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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Postby omdhar » 13 Nov 2014 19:52

Rosetta lander sends its first image after initial hiccup from comet #67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko
Image

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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Postby Amber G. » 13 Nov 2014 22:39

Vishnu wrote:I had the entire Mangalyaan team in our studios for a very special programme last night at 9 pm ...

Enjoy ....


http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/ndtv-s ... ion/344672

Thank you very much. Did enjoy.

Excellent job.

FWIW, From someone who watched moon landing live, and was always interested in such programs...
Very enjoyable and informative program.

Continue the good work.

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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Postby Amber G. » 13 Nov 2014 22:46

Here is a real picture (not simulation) from 40 m ...
Image

... Link:
Comet Landing Bumpier Than First Thought

This historic landing of a spacecraft on a comet on Wednesday turned out to be not one but three landings as the lander hopped across the surface.

Because of the failure of a thruster that was to press it against the comet’s surface after touching down, the European Space Agency’s Philae lander, part of the $1.75 billion Rosetta mission, bounded up more than half a mile (about one kilometer) back into space before falling to the surface again nearly two hours later, more than half a mile away. It then bounced again, less high, and ended in a tipped-up position, only two of its three legs on the surface.

“We are almost vertical, one foot probably in the open air —open space. I’m sorry, there is no air around,” Jean-Pierre Bibring, the lead lander scientist, said at a news conference on Thursday.

In the skewed position, Philae’s solar panels are generating much less power than had been planned, and when its batteries drain in a couple of days, it may not be able to recharge.
<snip>

Probe finally did land.

Move amazing pictures, for example at:
Landing on a Comet, 317 Million Miles From Home

and http://nyti.ms/1oLNaEV

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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Postby SSSalvi » 14 Nov 2014 01:13

Reg MOM brochure of SS images, there is a lot of criticism in comments section of their facebook pages on which ISRO has published the brochure especially because the publication has coincided with Rosetta/Philae images of another comet.


Unfortunately for a common man both the missions are ' komet ka photo ' missions although for MOM it just happened to be an unexpected opportunity.

People expect that any camera should work for any photograph.

There is a retort by Priyanka Gupta: ' Try taking a picture from 1 lakh km from whatever camera you have and zoom it. '

It is the duty of ISRO to listen and clarify limitations and futility in comparison while publishing the images and after listening to vox populi.

But ISRO only have Cameras and no Ears :) and The image on their Facebook pages is not available on ISRO.org where any visitor will search for them.

They should have provided original 5 images given in the brochure individually for better viewing .


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