INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

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putnanja
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby putnanja » 05 Jun 2014 03:56

Safety scare on Gorshkov

New Delhi, June 4: A new fighter jet of the Indian Navy was partly damaged after a “hard landing” on the deck of the INS Vikramaditya today, less than a month after the aircraft carrier was declared “fully operational”.

The carrier — earlier called Admiral Gorshkov — and the aircraft were bought with a lot of taxpayer money and after years of delay.

The incident calls to question a history of tardiness in procurement of weapons-platforms, combined with challenges thrown to Arun Jaitley, who has succeeded A.K. Antony as defence minister. :roll:
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Navy sources described today’s incident as a “hard landing” to distinguish it from a crash. The nose wheel of the jet, a MiG29K — also procured from Russia like the Vikramaditya — is said to have been partly damaged. The MiG29K has tandem cockpits. Both pilots are safe, navy sources said.

The incident happened off the coast of Goa late this afternoon. The aircraft had taken off from the INS Hansa naval air station at Dabolim, where it is shore-based, and was to land on the Vikramaditya in manoeuvres that the vessel and its aircraft have been engaged in since May 7. That was when navy chief Admiral Robin Dhowan announced the carrier was fully operational with its combat aircraft integrated.
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Even if the potential for damage to a carrier and its aircraft is great, “hard landings” are not all that infrequent because of the complex techniques involved in landing and take-off from a sailing ship.
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The MiG29K is designed to land on the Vikramaditya with a tail-hook that has to be trapped in one of three arrester cables on the deck that will force the jet to come to a stop. (Just imagine a sprinter being forced to stop by a tape that cannot be breached, many times over). But the pilots of the jet cannot cut power so much that the aircraft may not be able to take off if the tail-hook fails to trap the arresters.

Navy sources said that in the waters off Goa this evening, the MiG29K failed to “trap” the first two arrester cables but took the third.

That caused the “hard landing” because the pilots were powering up (increasing throttle) to take-off after having missed the first two cables.

Apparently, the shock of the trap and the landing was so much that the nose of the aircraft pointed skywards before the plane dropped down on its nose wheel. The impact damaged the nose wheel. The arrester cables force the aircraft to stop on landing, bringing the aircraft from a speed of about 300kmph to zero in fractions of a second.
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crap
crap
crap
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Look at this reporter/journalist/bewakoof making silly statements. how does a hard landing have any relationship to procurement? Notice that later in the report, he himself mentions hard landings are not infrequent. Hard landings sometimes happens on civil aircraft too when they have lots of runway space available.

He should have just limited to reporting the issue as it occurred and not tried taxing his brains on "analysis". And this is basically a non-event. Yes, hard landings happens, accept it. Once the SBTF is fully operational, more practise runs can happen there, but even that will not rule out hard-landings. Carrier air ops are one of the toughest things out there.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 05 Jun 2014 09:41

What BS from the reporter. This is just a routine carrier landing accident, for an arrested recovery.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby rkhanna » 05 Jun 2014 09:54

Also dont forget that in Pre Monsoon / Monsoon Sea conditions Hard Landings are more frequent due to a erratically rolling deck.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby merlin » 05 Jun 2014 13:50

rkhanna wrote:Also dont forget that in Pre Monsoon / Monsoon Sea conditions Hard Landings are more frequent due to a erratically rolling deck.


Apart from the fact that the IN aviators may not have adequate hours yet to be complete experts in this. STOBAR is still new to the IN.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby kmkraoind » 05 Jun 2014 22:54

Inside INS Vikramaditya: 2012 Film by Sevmash - Shiv Aroor, Published on Jun 4, 2014



Apologies if this content has been posted previously.


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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby shiv » 07 Jun 2014 06:45

merlin wrote:
rkhanna wrote:Also dont forget that in Pre Monsoon / Monsoon Sea conditions Hard Landings are more frequent due to a erratically rolling deck.


Apart from the fact that the IN aviators may not have adequate hours yet to be complete experts in this. STOBAR is still new to the IN.

I don't think that is the case. They have been training to do this on land and it can happen to experienced pilots as well. Its just that we end up discussing and analyzing minutae and incidents that would otherwise pass notice. This is the sort of apologetic or "Our people may not be as good as others because they are novices at it" statement that I get to see in the Indian media. If such an accident happens after 10 years it is still possible to say "Oh Indian pilots restarted STOBAR only 10 years ago. The US has been doing it for 50 years" and we do see that in the media.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby merlin » 09 Jun 2014 10:14

shiv wrote:
merlin wrote:
Apart from the fact that the IN aviators may not have adequate hours yet to be complete experts in this. STOBAR is still new to the IN.

I don't think that is the case. They have been training to do this on land and it can happen to experienced pilots as well. Its just that we end up discussing and analyzing minutae and incidents that would otherwise pass notice. This is the sort of apologetic or "Our people may not be as good as others because they are novices at it" statement that I get to see in the Indian media. If such an accident happens after 10 years it is still possible to say "Oh Indian pilots restarted STOBAR only 10 years ago. The US has been doing it for 50 years" and we do see that in the media.


Yes, of course we are overdoing the minutae and behaving exactly the same as the clueless reporters. But I think you are overdoing the pisko stuff here. There is nothing to apologize for.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Shreeman » 09 Jun 2014 12:12

^^^^.

1. this was reported june 4.
2. this also happened june 4.

Same day.

Which is more serious 1 or 2? What if 2 had happened in India. How is the reporting of 2 indifferent to politics and cost?

Not minutiae.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 09 Jun 2014 14:28

THE PROVING GROUND: Vikramaditya aircraft carrier! (English subtitles)


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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 09 Jun 2014 20:10

How difficult is into to install guns and other defense systems on the Vikramaditya ?

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 10 Jun 2014 12:59

Easy,if there are dedicated zones planned for their installation.CIWS systems are usually fitted onto the sponsons on either beam and at the stern.The Kiev even has VLS silos flush with the flight deck.However,if B-8 is to be fitted to the Vik-A,it will have to be clear of the large island.Perhaps a Kiev type solution has been planned for. Even though the carrier will be escorted by several air defence ships,it should have a tri-layered air defence suite of LR SAMs,BPDMS and CIWS. Both soft and hard kill anti-torpedo systems should also be std. eqpt. Mini-torpedoes for hard kill solutions are being developed/fitted to western subs and warships.

Conventional SSKs are fine for littoral warfare,but their costs are skyrocketing.The cheapest conventional subs are still Russian Kilos and Amurs,very capable with their Klub missile variants and Shkval rocket torpedoes,which have no equal in western subs. Vietnam is acquiring the latest kilo versions for a paltry sum of around $300M a sub,almost half that of a non-AIP Scorpene. The German U-boats are also not far behind in costs.We are very late in the day if we want German U-boats,as several Asian navies including SoKo have acquired them,are building them locally,while we struggle with our Scorpenes. Our best bet is to add/replace old subs with new affordable Russian conventional subs and build/acquire at least 6-8 SSGNs (a couple more Akulas and an SSGN variant of the ATV/Arihant).With a load of 30+ missiles and torpedoes,they would be ideal for blue-water ops in the Indo-China Sea ,IOR and Pacific. China has begun operating its N-subs in the IOR and politely "informing us" about the same,as an insult! There is no time to lose on acquiring new subs asap as an interim measure.the trials and negotiations for the 75-Is may take as long as the MMRCA deal,and by the time they arrive,may well prove to be obsolete.

Some intl news:
http://www.janes.com/article/34771/all- ... oved-kilos
A model of the Project 636 'Kilo'-class submarine. Source: IHS/Patrick Allen

The sixth Improved 'Kilo' (Project 636)-class diesel-electric submarine (SSK) on order for the People's Army of Vietnam (PAVN) Navy was laid down on 28 May at the Admiralty Shipyards in St Petersburg, Russia, according to local media reports.

The vessel, Vung Tau , is the final SSK procured from Russia under a [b]2009 contract worth USD2 billion.[/b]

The boats feature six 533 mm tubes that can launch TEST-71 series anti-surface and anti-submarine heavyweight torpedoes.

Unnamed defence officials also told state-run news agency RIA Novosti that the third SSK, Haiphong , is undergoing sea trials while the fourth, Da Nang , was floated out in March. Vietnam commissioned first-in-class Hanoi in January.

All six boats are scheduled for delivery by 2016.

Related articles:

All four Russian fleets to receive Improved Kilos
Algeria to sign for two more 'Kilo' subs



Russian Navy Commander-in-Chief Admiral Viktor Chirkov has indicated that all four Russian fleets will receive new Improved Kilo-class (Project 636.3) diesel-electric submarines (SSKs).

While Adm Chirkov did not provide details of how many boats would operate with each fleet, the six units currently on contract with St. Petersburg's Admiralty Shipyard are headed for the Black Sea Fleet and will be homeported at Novorossiysk.

Project 636.3 lead unit Novorossiysk was floated out in November 2013. During the keel-laying of fourth-in-class Krasnodar on 20 February, Adm Chirkov told Russian media that the navy considers advanced SSKs as an important component of task group operations in littoral waters and expects them to operate "where the use of nuclear-powered submarines is impossible and inexpedient".


The fastest way to augment the IN's sub fleet is to order a few more Kilos for the littorals,to replace the SRakshak and the dismantled Kilo that HSL like Humpty Dumpty cannot put together again!

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 14 Jun 2014 12:22

NaMo:

"I don't know why the previous govts didn't do it, may be this pavitra work had to happen by myself, so our govt. has already taken a decision to make a war memorial for our soldiers........"

8)

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby chaanakya » 14 Jun 2014 15:30

Modi sails on aircraft carrier Vikramaditya
PTI | Jun 14, 2014, 10.10 AM IST

PANAJI: Prime Minister Narendra Modi on Saturday visited the country's largest warship INS Vikramaditya off Goa coast in Arabian Sea, showcasing India's naval prowess.

Arriving on board the warship in a Sea King chopper, the Prime Minister was given the ceremonial guard of honour by the Navy and was briefed about the warship, which will be dedicated to the nation today.

He also sat in a MiG 29 aircraft and had a feel of the combat fighter on the ship sailing off the Goa coast.

Modi embarked on the 'carrier at sea' by helicopter and witnessed a host of exercises by the frontline warships and aircraft of the Navy.

This is Prime Minister's first visit outside Delhi after taking over on May 26.


During his stay on the 44,500-tonne Vikramaditya, acquired from Russia for over Rs 15,000 crore, Modi would witness 'air power demonstration' by various naval aircraft, including MiG 29K, Sea Harriers, P 8I Long Range Maritime Patrol Anti-Submarine Warfare aircraft, TU 142M and IL-38SD maritime surveillance planes along with Kamov and Sea King helicopters.

He will also witness high-speed manoeuvres by the Navy's Western Fleet ships including aircraft carrier INS Viraat, Delhi-class destroyers and Talwar-class frigates.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Rony » 14 Jun 2014 18:20


Rony
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Rony » 14 Jun 2014 18:26

from Manu Pubby


Image
Image


From Nitin Gokhale

Image

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby member_23694 » 14 Jun 2014 21:45

Was there any take-off and landing of Mig-29K on the aircraft carrier today ? If no then was weather the reason or too much safety concern and precaution (Is it good ? does it show some more time needed by Navy to be fully ready with this carrier).
Does bad weather impacts landing and take off on carriers all around the world ? In that case what happens to the fighters in Air , where do they land ?

Sorry too many questions but more to do with curiosity rather than any negative opinion :)

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 14 Jun 2014 22:17

todays rainy weather would not be a deterrent to carrier ops. there would be a point in sea state where air ops might shut down. but there is no completely instrument guided blind visibility landing system in naval aviation unlike civilian a/c I think.

night ops might not be there yet for the mig29k.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby putnanja » 15 Jun 2014 05:01


VikB
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby VikB » 15 Jun 2014 13:24

Is that a Dhruv landing on the carrier?

Austin
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 15 Jun 2014 13:29

Yes its Naval Dhruv , I saw the video our PM landed via Sea King.

I think if they did not demonstrate Mig-29K landing and take off to PM it would be due to security reason but I am not sure if that actually happened , would be interesting to see the 4 hour of PM visit to Vik video

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 15 Jun 2014 15:08

The weather was pretty rough.They probably did not want to take any risk with the PM aboard.However,what was great was seeing two IN carriers together,the Vik-A and the Viraat after a very long time.The last time that happened was when the Viraat was inducted and we had both Vikrant and Viraat sailing together. If the Vikrant-2 is commissioned by 2017/18 and the Viraat nursed along until 2020,we will have the fab. sight of 3 carriers together.

I don't know how much it would cost,but if the Viraat can be "rebuilt" at a reasonable cost,hull completely patched up,new plates,whatever-in short a total makeover as was done with the Gorshkov,and the Viraat is in far better shape,an operational carrier,we might get another decade+ of it being as an amphibious/ASW carrier,at cheaper cost that acquiring a new similar sized vessel .The small number of Sea Harriers would not last that unless the ex-RN Sea Harriers available are acquired for cannibalisation.The carrier could also be used with the training sqd.Large warship,huge accommodation,which could still operate at sea and conduct helo ops. One doesn't know the actual state of the vessel,but it may be just a very long shot. Mothballing it/training sqd. could allow for the vessel to be reinducted during a crisis.The US has mothballed its battleships and carriers for decades and continue to do so with those capable of reinduction at reasonable cost.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 15 Jun 2014 20:37

it would be similar cost to buy and operate a newer vessel of that size methinks. much better uptime probably. does not have to be a tfta mistral, dokdo, oshumi or juan carlos type but a few of smaller and austere type like say rotterdam class.
Image

no harriers for sure, but enough resources for a couple of these to control a maldives or mauritius "uprising" by the faithful and serve as a disaster relief and evac role also. ships are only 175m long and 25m wide...ie not much longer than P15A kolkata class and around 15000t

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 15 Jun 2014 20:40

we should stop dreaming of pie in sky juan carlos thing unless financial situation vastly improves. getting 1 isnt going to be useful.
we need around 4 LPHD and rotterdam type ships can fill the role and give us exp than waiting 10 yrs for funds to accumulate for a BMW7. atleast the corolla will reliably get us to work and back every day. being smaller and less complex, might be a good project for one of our pvt shipyards to get into major naval build game.
4 x ak630 at the corners and a couple boxes of barak1 & chaff launchers, submerged noisemakers and floating decoys can form the defence line.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby krisna » 16 Jun 2014 06:08

NDA govt signed the deal and NaMo went aboard the VKD carrier.
Thank Lord Ram that congis did not land on it.

(It is silly me only. nothing in it. :D )
from the artilce posted by Putnanja
Much of his intent, he said, though, was to upgrade the technology of the military. One senior naval officer who was at the meeting said he was impressed “with the way Modi linked the importance of maritime security with economic growth”.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Nikhil T » 16 Jun 2014 07:50

No MiG show on INS Vikramaditya, PMO asks why

The Prime Minister’s Office is likely to ask the Navy why the MiG-29K fighter aircraft could not operate from the deck of INS Vikramaditya during PM Narendra Modi’s visit on Saturday, a senior government official told HT.


PM Narendra Modi in the cockpit of MiG-29K fighter aircraft onboard the newly dedicated India's largest warship INS Vikramaditya in Goa. (PTI photo)
The Navy had to abort plans to showcase take-off and landing of the fighters on the Russian-made aircraft carrier due to turbulent sea conditions.

The swell was 3.5-metres high due to a cyclonic storm in the Arabian Sea and the fo’c’sle (forward part of a ship) of warships accompanying the carrier could be seen bobbing up and down several feet, a senior Navy officer said. Authorising MiG-29K manoeuvres in the prevailing conditions would have amounted to violation of standard operating procedures, he said.

The PMO on Saturday had said Modi witnessed a “three-hour long breathtaking display of naval capabilities” onboard the 44,500-tonne warship amid heavy rain. The government official said the PMO wanted to know the exact nature of difficulty faced by the navy in operating the ship-borne fighters from the deck.

The PMO was also not too happy with “pudgy and rotund” personnel, including some officers, onboard, he added.

The Navy officer said some of the personnel needed to emulate Navy chief Admiral Robin Dhowan, who is fitter than officers half his age. Modi and Dhowan had appeared to hit it off on the warship, with the navy chief explaining every manoeuvre to the PM.

Modi witnessed MiG-29K fighters performing two overshoots (touch-and-go missions) on the flight deck. Western Fleet commander Rear Admiral Anil Chawla was standing on the warship’s bridge (the part of a vessel from where its movement is controlled) and personally overseeing every manoeuvre.

Navy pilots have carried out more than 100 take-offs and an equal number of landings on the $2.33-billion carrier in recent months.

The Navy could have overcome the sea conditions by diverting the course of the warship.

But it had no window to do so as the PM was on a tight schedule, said another senior officer.

“We did our best in the available time and sea conditions. Moreover, safety cannot be compromised when the PM is onboard,” he stressed.

The officer added that the navy would have unquestionably pushed the envelope had the carrier been on an operational deployment, but safety couldn’t be overlooked during a display for the PM. There was a possibility of launching fighters from the carrier, but recovering them with arrestor wires would have been highly risky due to the sea conditions.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby uddu » 16 Jun 2014 17:13

Better to go for a stealthy LPD. Also for the latest technology rather than outdated designs.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby krishnan » 16 Jun 2014 20:50

19:48 Dhruv chopper likely to be deployed on-board INS Vikramaditya: Indigenously-built Dhruv helicopter is likely to be deployed on country's largest warship Russian-origin aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya for carrying out the role of detecting hostile submarines.

If inducted, the Advanced Light Helicopter will be the first indigenous system to be integrated on the warship, which so far operates only imported equipment such as the MiG 29K naval combat fighters and the Kamov-31 helicopters.

The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited-built ALH Dhruv is undergoing trials for carrying out role of detecting hostile submarines using systems developed by the DRDO, Defence officials said here.

The system was put under trial at Vishakhapatnam and would be tried further before any final decision is taken on deploying the twin-engine chopper on board the carrier, they said.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 16 Jun 2014 22:02

uddu wrote:Better to go for a stealthy LPD. Also for the latest technology rather than outdated designs.


er what is a stealthy LPD? nobody has yet successfully come with a stealthy carrier or LPD design - by nature high volume combatants with a lot of stuff sticking out on radar.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 17 Jun 2014 09:44

As per a tweet of Manu Pubby (I think) we've 12 pilots certified yet for carrier landing and take-off. Balance under training for rest of 27 Mig-29K.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby merlin » 17 Jun 2014 10:18

IN Dhruv on INS Vikramaditya would be great news if that happens. In ASW role on an AC, the other limitations except range would not apply, so IN can buy more of them for this role.

3.5 m swells corresponds to sea state 5. I wonder upto what sea state this particular AC can allow the fighters to trap.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby JTull » 17 Jun 2014 13:35



This news is pure speculation. Motive is clearly to undermine PMO and Armed Forces morale.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby titash » 17 Jun 2014 20:47

merlin/krishnan,

I think this has to do with the LFDS sensor recently (hopefully successfully) trialed on the Dhruv combined with the fact that our fleet of medium helos has dwindled due to attrition and serviceability issues. Hopefully the folding blades issue is not a problem with the larger carriers and LHD flat tops

The sheer number of Dhruvs in service will ensure serviceability over the next 2 decades.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 17 Jun 2014 20:57

er what is a stealthy LPD?


In the authoritative book on "stealth", by definition, it is a ship that does not exist.

Complete stealth, fully stealth, purna stealth.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Multatuli » 17 Jun 2014 22:41

Singha wrote

we should stop dreaming of pie in sky juan carlos thing unless financial situation vastly improves. getting 1 isnt going to be useful.

we need around 4 LPHD and rotterdam type ships can fill the role and give us exp than waiting 10 yrs for funds to accumulate for a BMW7. atleast the corolla will reliably get us to work and back every day. being smaller and less complex, might be a good project for one of our pvt shipyards to get into major naval build game.

4 x ak630 at the corners and a couple boxes of barak1 & chaff launchers, submerged noisemakers and floating decoys can form the defence line.



I wouldn't do that. The Dutch (like the entire West) think of themselves as "the conscience of the world", no, I am not exaggerating, this is how the Dutch elites (political, intellectual and even the business elites) think of them self.

What this means is that they will impose embargo on the delivery of the ships, spare parts, etc. in case of war, because of "human rights" and what not whenever it suites them.

The Dutch suffer from a particularly nasty case of "being an extremely noble people".

I would go with the French, sure those ships cost more but are more capable too.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby vishvak » 17 Jun 2014 23:03

Well the Dutch don't seem to mind murder of hundreds of dolphins and whales next door - celebrated as a festival by the way. link, pics not for weak hearts.

In particular the third last pic is telling, when the sea is turned blood red literally in which the civilized European Danish ride in modern gears and clothing. The boats are of course modern & motorized. These buggers have no standards.
[img=>]http://climatechange.thinkaboutit.eu/scripts/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/imagemanager/files/Lucy/Slaying4.jpg[<=/img]
Please delete if OT.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby anyusharma » 18 Jun 2014 04:20

IMO, the Dhruv being used in an ASW role is purely a stopgap measure. The ALH has performed magnificently in land based operations, but it just doesn't have the design features to optimise it for maritime operations. There was a talk given at one of the Aero India's which emphasised just how difficult it was to design the helicopter with all three services wanting in on a piece of the action and each of them having distinct, sometimes conflicting performance requirements.

Bottomline is, a purebred medium maritime helicopter is needed as of yesterday. The navy has been giving the procurement very high priority from what I've been told.


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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby joygoswami » 18 Jun 2014 10:08

INDIAN NAVY VIDEO 8)

[youtube]t9WxdLyL-_A#t=122[/youtube]

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Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 18 Jun 2014 10:25

^^ I was not referring to buying LPHD from the dutch, but a similar smallish and austere design perhaps in collab with soko or japan shipyard.

the NH90/SH60 deal needs to be pushed through. the sea kings are getting really long in tooth now.

I think one of the american indian tribes in pacificNW exercise better judgement in this whaling tradition thing. they kill a single whale annually from a canoe with a gunshot I think, not this wholesale slaughter.


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