INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

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Dileep
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Dileep » 22 Jan 2019 11:21

I had the fortune to stroll on the flight desk of INS Vikramadithya at Karwar. I also went close to the powerplant innards. We are trying to 'indegenize' some stuff. Some musings:

1. Things do look old and dilapidated. It is my first time on a naval surface ship, so I am not sure if this is standard kit on board. I'd been on board a Kilo. It was congested, but looked reasonably nicely kept.
2. Several simpler 'LRUs' like indicator panels on the engg side are already indigenized and they look remarkably different (like lashes on grandma) than the old russian kit.
3. "Bubble gum, spit and duct tape" everywhere at engg.
4. Russians on board to conduct certain maintenance activity. Saw a 6.5 ft TFTA russian checking the throttle settings and barking in russian into a radio with someone on the other end. I am 5'8" and had to shorten myself constantly to walk around. Not sure how the TFTA russkies lived and worked there. The TFTA Rajput CPO on duty is seen walking around expertly ducking just in time to avoid the obstacles, like in a traintop stunt in movies.
5. I had to go up and down a total of 8 to 10 decks a few times, including a vertical ladder down to engg. Saw one guy who is on duty running errands (he wears a shorts and sports T shirt uniform with R33 insignia. Saw several of those uniforms going to main gate to pass people in and take things around within the ship) going up and down constantly. Should be dead tired after a shift I think.
5. The flight deck is smaller than I imagined. Give it to the guys who land on that!
6. Didn't get a chance to partake galley food. In a contrast to general belief and my experience elsewhere, the crew kind of 'forgot that I was there' during lunchtime and later when queried by an officer, reported that galley is closed at that point. (I am not an 'entitled civilian' but normally military places offer a visitor food at chow time, especially since there is absolutely no way one could go out and find food. I was there from 1200Hrs till 1530 Hrs)
6. Karwar base (for good reason) is at a godforsaken place. Outside the base, there is absolutely nothing. Not even a pan shop nearby. My poor taxiwala also starved, waiting for me. I hope we can do further visits close to home if we end up building stuff for her.
7. Lot of work is happening for indigenization. Many companies like us are visiting.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby PratikDas » 22 Jan 2019 11:33

Lashes on grandma :rotfl:

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 22 Jan 2019 11:42

Dileep wrote:I had the fortune to stroll on the flight desk of INS Vikramadithya at Karwar. I also went close to the powerplant innards. We are trying to 'indegenize' some stuff. Some musings:


7. Lot of work is happening for indigenization. Many companies like us are visiting.


It takes a long time to do this but can get cancelled at a minute like Vidvanshak and Denel Anti Material rifles, then no point complaining we dont have any rifles to hit back when Paki snipers turn up, yes snipers are not easy to locate but you can atleast hit them when located with these rather than being Nanga.

The whole thing will be reversed like in 2004 if 2019 turns out like 2004.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby chola » 22 Jan 2019 12:10

Dileep wrote:I had the fortune to stroll on the flight desk of INS Vikramadithya at Karwar. I also went close to the powerplant innards. We are trying to 'indegenize' some stuff. Some musings:

1. Things do look old and dilapidated. It is my first time on a naval surface ship, so I am not sure if this is standard kit on board. I'd been on board a Kilo. It was congested, but looked reasonably nicely kept.
2. Several simpler 'LRUs' like indicator panels on the engg side are already indigenized and they look remarkably different (like lashes on grandma) than the old russian kit.
3. "Bubble gum, spit and duct tape" everywhere at engg.
4. Russians on board to conduct certain maintenance activity. Saw a 6.5 ft TFTA russian checking the throttle settings and barking in russian into a radio with someone on the other end. I am 5'8" and had to shorten myself constantly to walk around. Not sure how the TFTA russkies lived and worked there. The TFTA Rajput CPO on duty is seen walking around expertly ducking just in time to avoid the obstacles, like in a traintop stunt in movies.
5. I had to go up and down a total of 8 to 10 decks a few times, including a vertical ladder down to engg. Saw one guy who is on duty running errands (he wears a shorts and sports T shirt uniform with R33 insignia. Saw several of those uniforms going to main gate to pass people in and take things around within the ship) going up and down constantly. Should be dead tired after a shift I think.
5. The flight deck is smaller than I imagined. Give it to the guys who land on that!
6. Didn't get a chance to partake galley food. In a contrast to general belief and my experience elsewhere, the crew kind of 'forgot that I was there' during lunchtime and later when queried by an officer, reported that galley is closed at that point. (I am not an 'entitled civilian' but normally military places offer a visitor food at chow time, especially since there is absolutely no way one could go out and find food. I was there from 1200Hrs till 1530 Hrs)
6. Karwar base (for good reason) is at a godforsaken place. Outside the base, there is absolutely nothing. Not even a pan shop nearby. My poor taxiwala also starved, waiting for me. I hope we can do further visits close to home if we end up building stuff for her.
7. Lot of work is happening for indigenization. Many companies like us are visiting.


Thank you, Dileep Saar, for giving us these nuggets!

1) For better or worse, the hull is close to 40 years old despite the Russian rebuild/refit. Keel laid down in 1979 as Baku.

5) Now imagine the starboard edge packed with parked MiGs as you land. Or at night. Landing on this converted helo/STOVL cruiser is simply amazing. Kudos to our pilots.

7) Wonderful that we are indigenizing and I hope we put more domestic lashes on this grandma.

I enjoyed the post a lot. Please update us if it is appropriate to do so.

Would love to see someone compare the Vikrant with our venerable Russian rebuild some day once the former is finally in service.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 29 Jan 2019 02:22

The new Vik will be a welcome addition and its wider flight deck make it easier for operations.Given the high cost of large CV, a slightly larger sister ship should've been immediately started after IAC-1 was launched.
One option is reducing thd number of amphibs to 3 and building IAC-2 of the Vik-2 class.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 30 Jan 2019 08:13

chola wrote:1) For better or worse, the hull is close to 40 years old despite the Russian rebuild/refit. Keel laid down in 1979 as Baku..

By this standard can we also say that the INS Kolkata, which was commissioned in 2014 in the IN, is also about 15-16 years old?

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby chola » 30 Jan 2019 09:32

Cain Marko wrote:
chola wrote:1) For better or worse, the hull is close to 40 years old despite the Russian rebuild/refit. Keel laid down in 1979 as Baku..

By this standard can we also say that the INS Kolkata, which was commissioned in 2014 in the IN, is also about 15-16 years old?


Good point, Marko ji. Then the better way is the commission date?

But hypothetically, steel still has a shelf life no?

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 30 Jan 2019 10:51

Hull of any ship is not an issue it can go on till 100 years if it is maintained well , the key is electronics and weapons that gets obsolete more soon , hence a Major Ship goes through 2-3 Major upgrade in its life time to keep its electronics and weapons relevant

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 31 Jan 2019 01:07

chola wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:By this standard can we also say that the INS Kolkata, which was commissioned in 2014 in the IN, is also about 15-16 years old?


Good point, Marko ji. Then the better way is the commission date?

But hypothetically, steel still has a shelf life no?

Chola sir Austin Garu makes a very good point above. consider that the Viraat was retired not because of the ships condition but because the shars were simply not available anymore. From Gulf News....

.

Speaking to reporters aboard the Centaur-class aircraft carrier, which is docked at Mumbai harbour, Vice-Admiral Girish Luthra, Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Western Naval Command, remarked how the decommissioning was an emotional and proud time for all those, including him, who served on the ship.

“Even after 50 years of service, a record in naval history, the ship is in good shape and can still go and perform at sea.”


Which also sometimes makes me wonder about some of the USNs decommissioned hulls as possible IN super carriers... In fact not too long ago there was a proposal being floated about, can't remember the name of the cv though. Get shornets or Raffles to ply from the beast.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby John » 31 Jan 2019 02:26

One of major aspects for ships getting retired is the ships machinery nearing end of life mainly the propulsion system, simply not feasible to replace turbines/engines, shaft and propellers along with their control units. Ironically one of my main concerns with Vikramaditya is her boilers and steam turbines which caused plenty problem for her sister ships.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 31 Jan 2019 05:24

^^Marko caab, that was Big E, the enterprise

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby hnair » 31 Jan 2019 08:35

If there is one thing that khan has not done, it is giving out a conventional super carrier CV, let alone prized assets like CVNs, nuke sub.

The closest was trident sub-system sale to brits

There were some empty speculation about Kitty Hawke about 10 years back. Khan mouthpieces later claimed it was an attempt by yevil yindoo baniya to shave the bear’s back

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 31 Jan 2019 11:25

True, but look how the Chins took the Varyag which we discarded in favour of the Gorky and resurrected her from the dead! Quite an admirable achievement.The adm. who inspected the two told me aeons ago that the Varyag's hull was in poor condition, plus we had no naval port facilities to accommodate such a large carrier.
I still feel that a modfied sister ship of the new Vikrant should be started asap.It can be built faster and the use of similar machinery and eqpt
would be very cost- effective plus easier training and crewing too. Aircraft and helos operating similar too with larger lift size provision for more advanced aircraft than the 29Ks in the latter half of the next decade.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby chola » 31 Jan 2019 11:47

Philip wrote:True, but look how the Chins took the Varyag which we discarded in favour of the Gorky and resurrected her from the dead! Quite an admirable achievement.The adm. who inspected the two told me aeons ago that the Varyag's hull was in poor condition, plus we had no naval port facilities to accommodate such a large carrier.


Found this bizzare video of a mass of decadent goras partying it up on a Chinese carrier:

Published on Jun 6, 2010
Huge aircraft party with a log of DJs and good music just outside Beijing in Tianjin!

By far the best party in my life!


Turns out it was the Vikramaditya’s sister ship Kiev which the chinis didn’t convert so that today it holds keg parties instead of J-15s.

They also have the Minsk as a tourist attraction too.

So there you have it — Cheen rebuilding the Varyag and leaving their two Kiev carrier cruisers as recreational theme parks while we paid Roos $3B to convert a Kiev.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby chetak » 31 Jan 2019 21:35

Cain Marko wrote:
chola wrote:
Good point, Marko ji. Then the better way is the commission date?

But hypothetically, steel still has a shelf life no?

Chola sir Austin Garu makes a very good point above. consider that the Viraat was retired not because of the ships condition but because the shars were simply not available anymore. From Gulf News....

.

Speaking to reporters aboard the Centaur-class aircraft carrier, which is docked at Mumbai harbour, Vice-Admiral Girish Luthra, Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Western Naval Command, remarked how the decommissioning was an emotional and proud time for all those, including him, who served on the ship.

“Even after 50 years of service, a record in naval history, the ship is in good shape and can still go and perform at sea.”


Which also sometimes makes me wonder about some of the USNs decommissioned hulls as possible IN super carriers... In fact not too long ago there was a proposal being floated about, can't remember the name of the cv though. Get shornets or Raffles to ply from the beast.



the steel on the russian hulls are not of the same quality as that on the brit or even Indian ships.

decommissioned russian hulls cannot even be auctioned for scrap because there are no buyers but decommissioned Indian and ex brit hulls like vikrant are in huge demand. Such russian hulls are used as missile targets by the IN and sunk out at sea.

In India, some brands of razor blades are made using the steel recovered/salvaged from these brits or even Indian hulls

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 01 Feb 2019 00:53

chetak wrote:the steel on the russian hulls are not of the same quality as that on the brit or even Indian ships.

decommissioned russian hulls cannot even be auctioned for scrap because there are no buyers but decommissioned Indian and ex brit hulls like vikrant are in huge demand. Such russian hulls are used as missile targets by the IN and sunk out at sea.


Interpolating this into vikad is a 40 year old rust bucket is a leap though. I wonder why the same Navy that just sinks old Russian hulls went to refurb the Gorky then? Also werent they using Russian steel for the Vikrant as well?

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby chetak » 01 Feb 2019 03:58

Cain Marko wrote:
chetak wrote:the steel on the russian hulls are not of the same quality as that on the brit or even Indian ships.

decommissioned russian hulls cannot even be auctioned for scrap because there are no buyers but decommissioned Indian and ex brit hulls like vikrant are in huge demand. Such russian hulls are used as missile targets by the IN and sunk out at sea.


Interpolating this into vikad is a 40 year old rust bucket is a leap though. I wonder why the same Navy that just sinks old Russian hulls went to refurb the Gorky then? Also werent they using Russian steel for the Vikrant as well?


why would anyone use russian steel on vikrant?? or did you mean Vikramaditya??

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 01 Feb 2019 04:11

Steel of the new INS Vikrant ---> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Vikrant_(2013)

The AB/A grade steel which was supposed to be supplied from Russia faced problems in delivery. To resolve this, the Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory (DMRL) and Steel Authority of India Limited (SAIL) created facilities to manufacture the steel in India. Reportedly, three types of special steel for the hull, flight deck and floor compartments were manufactured at the Bhilai Steel Plant, Chhattisgarh and Rourkela Steel Plant, Odisha. Due to this, this is the first ship of the Indian navy to be built completely using domestically-produced steel.


Steel of the old Vikrant is now used to manufacture Bajaj motorcycles.

The next best fitting tribute, in absence of converting her into a museum. May her motto of Jayema Sam Yudhi Sprdhah (I defeat those who fight against me) continue to live on. Shano Varuna!






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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 01 Feb 2019 08:05

Rakesh wrote:Steel of the new INS Vikrant ---> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Vikrant_(2013)

The AB/A grade steel which was supposed to be supplied from Russia faced problems in delivery. To resolve this, the Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory (DMRL) and Steel Authority of India Limited (SAIL) created facilities to manufacture the steel in India. Reportedly, three types of special steel for the hull, flight deck and floor compartments were manufactured at the Bhilai Steel Plant, Chhattisgarh and Rourkela Steel Plant, Odisha. Due to this, this is the first ship of the Indian navy to be built completely using domestically-produced steel.


Steel of the old Vikrant is now used to manufacture Bajaj motorcycles.

The next best fitting tribute, in absence of converting her into a museum. May her motto of Jayema Sam Yudhi Sprdhah (I defeat those who fight against me) continue to live on. Shano Varuna!



And I am a proud owner of one of it in Navy Blue colour

Image

Thinking of sticking decal of Vikrant crest on the white strip on the tank and R11 on the blue part of side cover

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 01 Feb 2019 08:13

in general though we just crossed japan to be 2nd largest steel producer we need to improve our steel product matrix into higher value added from just building roads and sheets and wires of basic nature.

would be interesting to know if our automobile and machine tools industry imports any steel or sources all domestically. there is a export market for good steel once chinese price dumping is punished.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 01 Feb 2019 12:23

chetak wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Interpolating this into vikad is a 40 year old rust bucket is a leap though. I wonder why the same Navy that just sinks old Russian hulls went to refurb the Gorky then? Also werent they using Russian steel for the Vikrant as well?


why would anyone use russian steel on vikrant?? or did you mean Vikramaditya??

IIRC they first sent for ship grade steel from Russia but delays forced indigenous manufacture. Point is neither Navy nor manufacturers had issues with Russian steel for the Vikrant
Last edited by Cain Marko on 01 Feb 2019 15:39, edited 1 time in total.

chetak
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby chetak » 01 Feb 2019 13:47

Cain Marko wrote:
chetak wrote:why would anyone use russian steel on vikrant?? or did you mean Vikramaditya??

IIRC they first sent for ship grade steel from Russia but delays forced indigenous manufacture. Point is neither Navy nor manufacturers had issues with Russian steel for the Vikrant

The demand for ship grade steel in India does not justify commercial production locally so most of it is imported.

Don't know the current situation as I have not been keeping up.

In the bygone days, a lot of the ship grade steel was usually imported from singapore, in the minuscule quantities that were used by us.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 05 Mar 2019 23:58

BTW out of sheer curiosity, what would be the feasibility of trying to get something like this as a Vishaal? Just wondering? Lease it perhaps? Buy 60 super hornets and ensure local production of the 414? The US if our new Chum esp for the Navy it seems...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/taskandpurpose.com/uss-harry-truman-retirement-2630202283.amp.html

Follow the vikad model... Free ship. We pay for airwing of 50 shornets, 2 Hawkeyes etc. Directly delivered. Great opportunity for Naval Tejas with catobar. Even for 10 billion USD, it might work out.

I know Chola Saar will lose his s##t if something like this happened. :D

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby gpurewal » 06 Mar 2019 02:35

Cain Marko wrote:BTW out of sheer curiosity, what would be the feasibility of trying to get something like this as a Vishaal? Just wondering? Lease it perhaps? Buy 60 super hornets and ensure local production of the 414? The US if our new Chum esp for the Navy it seems...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/taskandpurpose.com/uss-harry-truman-retirement-2630202283.amp.html

Follow the vikad model... Free ship. We pay for airwing of 50 shornets, 2 Hawkeyes etc. Directly delivered. Great opportunity for Naval Tejas with catobar. Even for 10 billion USD, it might work out.

I know Chola Saar will lose his s##t if something like this happened. :D

I remember a quote from a novel (the name escapes me): "Today's customer may be tomorrow's enemy". As much as the US is friendly to India today, their attitude may change in the future. Letting India buy a prized Aircraft Carrier could have long term consequences for the US, so the carrier that they provide may be stripped of important technology. Heck, I wonder if they will allow the carrier to be sold with A4W reactors? They might deem it more pertinent to scrap the ship, if they cannot mothball it.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby brar_w » 06 Mar 2019 02:42

Cain Marko wrote:BTW out of sheer curiosity, what would be the feasibility of trying to get something like this as a Vishaal? Just wondering? Lease it perhaps? Buy 60 super hornets and ensure local production of the 414? The US if our new Chum esp for the Navy it seems...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/taskandpurpose.com/uss-harry-truman-retirement-2630202283.amp.html

Follow the vikad model... Free ship. We pay for airwing of 50 shornets, 2 Hawkeyes etc. Directly delivered. Great opportunity for Naval Tejas with catobar. Even for 10 billion USD, it might work out.

I know Chola Saar will lose his s##t if something like this happened. :D


The HS Truman has decades of service life left in the USN after which it will be quite useless given the capital cost to modernize it. What you read in the article is a budget tactic the USN uses to divert money into other priorities and banking on Congress to backfill that funding request during the budget process. They did the same with the Lincoln RCOH a few years ago.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby chola » 06 Mar 2019 05:58

Cain Marko wrote:BTW out of sheer curiosity, what would be the feasibility of trying to get something like this as a Vishaal? Just wondering? Lease it perhaps? Buy 60 super hornets and ensure local production of the 414? The US if our new Chum esp for the Navy it seems...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/taskandpurpose.com/uss-harry-truman-retirement-2630202283.amp.html

Follow the vikad model... Free ship. We pay for airwing of 50 shornets, 2 Hawkeyes etc. Directly delivered. Great opportunity for Naval Tejas with catobar. Even for 10 billion USD, it might work out.

I know Chola Saar will lose his s##t if something like this happened. :D


Yah, probably lose control of all my sphincters and then go down with spasms.

That would be like giving an narcotic addict an oxycodone pill this size:

Image

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 06 Mar 2019 09:30

^Haha :rotfl:

Brarji,

Thanks for the details on how the process works. I was under the impression that it was a cost issue and a clever way for the Pentagon to get a new ford class but the Congress wouldn't want the Truman wasted since she has quite a bit of life left. Otoh if India were to purchase the shornets and refurb it, I thought the costs might work out.

Didn't know it was a creative accounting ploy

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Barath » 07 Mar 2019 16:57

Cain Marko wrote:BTW out of sheer curiosity, what would be the feasibility of trying to get something like this as a Vishaal? Just wondering? Lease it perhaps? Buy 60 super hornets and ensure local production of the 414? The US if our new Chum esp for the Navy it seems...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/taskandpurpose.com/uss-harry-truman-retirement-2630202283.amp.html

Follow the vikad model... Free ship. We pay for airwing of 50 shornets, 2 Hawkeyes etc. Directly delivered. Great opportunity for Naval Tejas with catobar. Even for 10 billion USD, it might work out.

I know Chola Saar will lose his s##t if something like this happened. :D



Congress has a law that states they have to have a minimum of 11 carriers. Right now, the US navy wants more ships, newer/,more capable ships, strategic submarines,SSBN/SSN, even planes (which have been hard ridden). Even for the mighty budget of the US, and the mild increases it has, it is quite impossible.

So they propose to retire the Truman in mid-life (20-25 years of 50 years life) to 'save money' on the 4 year refueling and overhaul. This will drop number of carriers to 10, breaking the law mandated by Congress. So Congress will give them more money, they can't just ignore it.

They tried this tactic before in past and succeeded.

Of course they will still be miles away from funding everything that they want, (over decades), but it was successful.

--

And the US has never sold a nuclear sub or carrier, not even to close buddy UK.

And finally, the costs for India would be astronomous. It includes staffing (huge), operating, air fleet (huge) , maintenance, posibly refueling (very huge) and the entire carrier group to go around it.Even if the other two impossibilities happen, it is not a given that any Indian government would splurge on this, especially given other navy needs (subs,planes, ...) , Air force needs, army ...

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 07 Mar 2019 18:54

Cain-ji, any tip-of-the-spear platforms of US origin are best avoided.

Logistical platforms (C-17, C-130, CH-47, etc)) and surveillance/second tier combat platforms (P-8, AH-64, etc) are okay.

The Americans are untrustworthy and unreliable. And that is putting it mildly. Best avoided.

The Harry Truman will not be coming. And if it does, it will be a noose around India's neck.

Have you not been seeing the end use monitoring agreements that the US has with Pakistan's F-16 Block 50/52s? What do you think the US will do with a nuclear powered aircraft carrier?

Keep the Americans at arms length. Buy whatever is needed for logistical capability and stay away from strategic partnership (double speak for a buyer-seller relationship).

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby brar_w » 07 Mar 2019 20:34

Rakesh wrote:Cain-ji, any tip-of-the-spear platforms of US origin are best avoided.

Logistical platforms (C-17, C-130, CH-47, etc)) and surveillance/second tier combat platforms (P-8, AH-64, etc) are okay.

The Americans are untrustworthy and unreliable. And that is putting it mildly. Best avoided.

The Harry Truman will not be coming. And if it does, it will be a noose around India's neck.

Have you not been seeing the end use monitoring agreements that the US has with Pakistan's F-16 Block 50/52s? What do you think the US will do with a nuclear powered aircraft carrier?

Keep the Americans at arms length. Buy whatever is needed for logistical capability and stay away from strategic partnership (double speak for a buyer-seller relationship).


While I don't expect any US combat fighter aircraft in IAF but a frontline ASW platform ( The ASW mission is the most important aspect of the P-8 and ISR and Maritime surveillance is second) and a heavy attack helicopter are most definitely first tier combat platforms much different from transport/lift aircraft or even, though to a lesser degree, ISTAR platforms like the Sentinel etc.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 07 Mar 2019 20:36

my bad, brar_w saar. I would prefer not to see any combat aircraft of US origin in the IAF or the IN.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby brar_w » 07 Mar 2019 20:43

The IN seems like to like and perhaps even want more P-8Is from what I have been able to make out and more Apaches are also a possibility. Strategically this is probably where the current comfort level lies between the two countries with perhaps armed drones ( the avenger rumors/reports) being the next possible test for it. Certainly fighter aircraft are out of questions.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 07 Mar 2019 20:48

Personally, I would love to see a repeat order of P-8Is, more CH-47s (please!), more C-130s and MH-60R helicopters. We lost out - due to Babu laziness - on additional C-17s. That was criminal.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 08 Mar 2019 11:42

Rakesh wrote:Cain-ji, any tip-of-the-spear platforms of US origin are best avoided.

Logistical platforms (C-17, C-130, CH-47, etc)) and surveillance/second tier combat platforms (P-8, AH-64, etc) are okay.

The Americans are untrustworthy and unreliable. And that is putting it mildly. Best avoided.

The Harry Truman will not be coming. And if it does, it will be a noose around India's neck.

Have you not been seeing the end use monitoring agreements that the US has with Pakistan's F-16 Block 50/52s? What do you think the US will do with a nuclear powered aircraft carrier?

Keep the Americans at arms length. Buy whatever is needed for logistical capability and stay away from strategic partnership (double speak for a buyer-seller relationship).

Completely understand Admiralji and as you probably know I too harbor similar feelings. However, I do see a convergence in interests in that India wants a big carrier and check China as well. The US too wishes to hamper Chinese expansion. I don't see the harm in it providing the deal is affordable and has certain end user conditions which allows free use against China and a degree of force projection. Against TSP I don't see why India should need more than the vikad or Vikrant.

If not the Truman, perhaps the kitty hawk? It should also be cheaper. Recently read an article where a US admiral suggested that the kh could still be salvaged.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby chola » 08 Mar 2019 14:26

Cain Marko wrote:Completely understand Admiralji and as you probably know I too harbor similar feelings. However, I do see a convergence in interests in that India wants a big carrier and check China as well. The US too wishes to hamper Chinese expansion. I don't see the harm in it providing the deal is affordable and has certain end user conditions which allows free use against China and a degree of force projection. Against TSP I don't see why India should need more than the vikad or Vikrant.

If not the Truman, perhaps the kitty hawk? It should also be cheaper. Recently read an article where a US admiral suggested that the kh could still be salvaged.


Yes, the key is power projection. And it doesn't mean attacking anyone. The truth is the dominant power in the IOR will be the USN for some time. But the perception that Cheen can create among the littoral state of the region if it sails into the IOR with a CBG is a clear number two even if we outgun them by a mile when all forces are taken into account. With the UK and France also plying in the region with their carriers we might be seen as the fifth rated power in our home waters.

The navy wants that 65K ton CATOBAR for a reason. I wish the MOD make a decision soon. The amreeki surplus carrier is a pipedream as much as I like the idea. We need to get started. The chinis had already sea tested their second carrier five times and we see modules of their third in Shanghai. We go for months without word on the Vikrant (look at the thread -- it's buried five pages back among threads for lack of news.)

Building a carrier expands our national capacity like no other single piece of military hardware. With such long lead times, it needs to be planned out far ahead of time. We seem to be haphazard in our approach.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 08 Mar 2019 19:02

Cain Marko wrote:Completely understand Admiralji and as you probably know I too harbor similar feelings. However, I do see a convergence in interests in that India wants a big carrier and check China as well. The US too wishes to hamper Chinese expansion. I don't see the harm in it providing the deal is affordable and has certain end user conditions which allows free use against China and a degree of force projection. Against TSP I don't see why India should need more than the vikad or Vikrant.

If not the Truman, perhaps the kitty hawk? It should also be cheaper. Recently read an article where a US admiral suggested that the kh could still be salvaged.

On the biggest convergence - the Quad - it is a damper. Go here ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7652&p=2332268#p2332268

How the US wishes to hamper Chinese expansion is night-and-day from how India intends to do it. And at the end of the day, India has to chart her own path and not follow the path of the US.

India wanting a big carrier does not translate into reality at the Ministry of Finance in New Delhi. India wanted a nuclear powered aircraft carrier. What happened? The MoF shot that proposal down. The babu got an asthma attack when he saw the price and neither BARC or the Indian Navy wanted to cough up the funds for a nuclear reactor. Go figure!

No point going in for old hulks like the Kitty Hawk either. She was commissioned in 1961! She is nearly 60 years old. What are we going to do with that?

Our best bet lies in building our own carriers. We have had enough experience (good & bad) with used carriers - Vikrant (ex-Hercules), Viraat (ex-Hermes) and Vikramaditya (ex-Admiral Gorshkov). The path forward is learning from the new Vikrant build and moving on from there. I wished our Naval Design Bureau did a stretched Vikrant design with wider lifts, than going in for a brand new design in the Vishaal.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 11 Apr 2019 21:27

Interview with CO of Vikramaditya and with Mig-29K Pilot


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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 30 Sep 2019 21:40

Photos : DM visit to INS Vikramaditya

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3790245.html

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 14 Apr 2020 03:53

Some interior and exterior pics of INS Vikramaditya

https://twitter.com/ThingNavy/status/12 ... 44706?s=20 --->

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 14 Apr 2020 03:57

I hope navy takes adequate protection to prevent spread on ships and carrier... CDG and Theodore roosevelt had to be brought to shore..


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