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INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

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INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 15 Nov 2013 13:28

Post any news,discussion and Video on INS Vikramaditya

Navy to get refurbished Vikramaditya tomorrow

At the quay adjoining Sevmash Shipyard’s enormous hull shop no. 55 is the aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya, getting decked up for its big day. The Cold War–era Russian carrier, which received a new lease of life after a five-year-long controversy-ridden period of “modernisation”, will on Saturday be inducted into the Indian Navy. The ceremony will be attended by Defence Minister A.K. Antony, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin and a host of other top officials including the naval chiefs of both countries.

After completion of minor interior works, Vikramaditya will set course for its historic 60-day voyage to Karnataka’s Karwar by the end of November with a 1,600-member Indian crew commanded by Captain Suraj Berry and a Russian surety team comprising 183 technicians, who will stay back in India for a year to ensure that the 44,500-tonne behemoth has a smooth sail.

A Talwar-class frigate and fleet tanker, INS Deepak, will escort Vikramaditya, which will be eventually joined by three other Indian vessels on way to its homeport at Karwar.

Andrey Dyachkov, Director-General of Russia’s Northern Shipbuilding Centre, which controls Sevmash, said negotiations were underway between both sides to ensure long-term fruitful service support to the carrier.

“The ship has been modernised and repaired. This allows us to say that it will be able to serve the Indian Navy for 40 years. Its life can be further enhanced if properly maintained. So we can safely say that it’s a whole new ship,” he told a group of Indian journalists.

Elaborating on the sea trials of the Vikramaditya, Sergey Novoselov, Head of the Military Technical Cooperation Division of Sevmash, said the carrier did exceedingly well during its trials in the White Sea that began on July 3.

“We’ve met all specifications and it attained a top speed of 29.5 knots without any glitch… The flight trials were witnessed by Vice-Admiral Shekhar Sinha, Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief of India’s Western Naval Command. Out of the 8,600 miles the carrier sailed during trials, 1,700 miles were done under the command of Captain Berry, its Commanding Officer. There were more than 3,200 people aboard including 1,000-odd personnel from the Navy. However, the camaraderie was so good that we didn’t need help from the over 80 translators aboard as trials came to a close. Rear Admiral R. Hari Kumar [who previously commanded INS Viraat] headed the carrier acceptance team,” said Mr. Novoselov.

Officials of Sevmash said the trials also demonstrated the strength of the fortified hull of Vikramaditya. To a query on the carrier’s boilers, which malfunctioned during trials last year, leading to another spell of delay in delivery, Mr. Dyachkov said the yard had replaced asbestos with “another material” on the firebrick-wall at the suggestion of the Indian Navy. “After it failed, it was realised that asbestos was the best and that it would not jeopardise the health of seamen. So we installed asbestos and our decision was proved correct during trials,” he said.

On the issue of cost-escalation, Mr. Dyachkov said initially it wasn’t possible to fathom the scope of work on the vessel. The Indian Navy understood that deeper repairs and refurbishment became inevitable, he said. Mr. Novoselov said 2,500 km of cable network and 3,000 km of pipes were fully replaced. “Besides, all radio and electronic warfare equipment, fans, pipes and the like are new.”

Igor Leonav, chief commissioner of Sevmash, who is heading the guarantee team to India, said the carrier controlled 778 flights during trials. There were 88 landings, too, all piloted by Russians. The carrier’s jamming capability was demonstrated when the Sukhoi-33s, Kamovs, MiG-29s and the early warning aircraft A-50 all failed to paint it on their radars, he said. The carrier’s radar, on the contrary, could pick oncoming aircraft from a distance of 350-400 km, said Mr. Leonav.

(Vikramaditya is being delivered without any air defence capability, as it is devoid of any surface-to-air missile or close-in weapon systems, which would be retrofitted later).

All systems, however, needed fine-tuning, which would be done during its voyage to India. While negotiations for refurbishment and procurement of Admiral Gorshkov began in 1994, the contract was signed in April 2004.

The Navy, in a release on Thursday, called the carrier a game-changer. .

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 15 Nov 2013 13:33

INS Vikramaditya


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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 15 Nov 2013 13:54

After all this time we have to wait just another 24 Hrs before the ship is in our hands. The crew and the ship has my best wishes and prayers for a safe journey home.

I pray for a long and successful association of the ship with the Indian Navy.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby member_20453 » 15 Nov 2013 14:48

quote]Igor Leonav, chief commissioner of Sevmash, who is heading the guarantee team to India, said the carrier controlled 778 flights during trials. There were 88 landings, too, all piloted by Russians. The carrier’s jamming capability was demonstrated when the Sukhoi-33s, Kamovs, MiG-29s and the early warning aircraft A-50 all failed to paint it on their radars, he said. The carrier’s radar, on the contrary, could pick oncoming aircraft from a distance of 350-400 km, said Mr. Leonav.[/quote]

Sweet :) there will be more obvious EW additions once home and thus we can safely say, Paki and Chinese aircraft can't even target it. :rotfl:

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby saumitra_j » 15 Nov 2013 17:28

Navy set to get its largest aircraft carrier tomorrow
Ending a nine-year wait, aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya will be inducted into the Indian Navy by Defence Minister A K Antony at the Sevmash shipyard in Severodvinsk, Russia on Saturday.
The first aircraft carrier to join the Navy in over two decades, Vikramaditya, the former Gorshkov, will set sail for India after the handing-over ceremony. It is likely to be greeted by a ship that already has a very special place in the Navy. INS Viraat, India's lone aircraft carrier, is said to be heading to Oman to escort the Vikramaditya home.

In a show of strength and capability, the two aircraft carriers are expected to sail together in the Arabian Sea before the Vikramaditya heads for its final berthing place in Karwar. The deployment will be one of the last overseas sailings for INS Viraat that has been in service with the Indian Navy since 1987 and is overdue for retirement, given that the hull is now over five decades old.

For Vikramaditya, the long journey home will be challenging — it will be unarmed, and will sail without weapons or fighter aircraft on board while making the transition from freezing seas to tropical waters. The Navy is planning a five-ship escort.

After it sets sail from Severodvinsk, the Vikramaditya, commanded by Commodore Suraj Berry, will be met by INS Deepak, a tanker ship, near Murmansk. Also tailing the aircraft carrier will be a Talwar-class frigate. Additional ships will join the convoy near Gibraltar. Though the final route home has not been revealed, the ship is likely to use the Suez Canal and will meet the Viraat once it reaches the Oman coast.

The escort is required especially as the route through the Suez will raise serious security issues given the multiple threats that can emerge in the region. The Navy has been tightlipped and has prepared the carrier for a sixty-day sail. This means that a route skirting Africa is also not being ruled out.

The Navy is also certain that the ship will be tailed and will be under surveillance throughout its journey home by all navies operating in the region. The Pakistani Navy is expected to try and gather as much information as possible on the Vikramaditya once it nears Indian waters and is likely to deploy warships as well as aircraft to monitor the carrier.

But there will be little to watch as the carrier will not conduct flying operations on its journey to India. The only flying elements on board are helicopters that are used for anti-submarine operations and utility purposes.

As thing stand, only three Indian aviators have landed on the ship, all sitting in the "passenger" seat of the MiG-29 KUB. One of them is Vice Admiral Shekhar Sinha, the Western Navy Commander under whose authority the ship will operate once it joins the fleet. Incidentally, Sinha is Grey Eagle, the name given to the seniormost aviator of the Navy.

Besides the crew of over 1,600 Indian sailors, the ship will also have 183 Russian technicians on board for the home journey. They will monitor all systems and assist the Indian crew. Several adjustments also need to be made to ship systems when it enters warmer waters, including tuning of the air-conditioning plant. The Russian crew will also be in Karwar for a year as part of the guarantee contract to ensure that the carrier remains snag-free.

A series of hits and misses saw the delivery time of the ship extended by five years and there was a significant cost escalation. But Vikramaditya has finally aced trials by reaching a top speed of 29.5 knots and successfully demonstrating its 'stealth mode' by blinding incoming aircraft with its electronic warfare suite.

The three-month trials in the White and Barents sea that concluded late September saw the carrier being pushed to its limits and coming out with flying colours. The main issue that delayed delivery by a year — malfunctioning insulation in the boilers — has also been resolved and the ship exceeded speeds of 29 knots on a regular basis during the trials,

"We met all parameters during the trials. The ship performed really well and the propulsion plant as well as the boilers did not have any problems. Of the 8,600 miles that the ship sailed, 1,700 miles were under the command of Commodore Suraj Berry (the Indian commanding officer)," Sergey Novoselov, Head of Military Technical Cooperation Division, Sevmash said.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby syele » 15 Nov 2013 19:52

http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 1115.htm#4

Admiral Gorshkov was put in hibernation after her last sailing in 1995. With most of her equipment lying un-utilised since then, the task of breathing life and converting her from a Vertical Takeoff and Landing missile cruiser carrier to a STOBAR aircraft carrier involved substantial degutting, equipment removal, refit and re-equipping. The major works envisaged were modification of flight deck to include ski-jump and arrester gear; modification of bulbous bow, aft aircraft lift and ammunition lifts; modification of 1,750 out of 2,500 compartments; installation of new main boilers; installation of new and additional Diesel Generators; replacement of existing distilling plants; fitment of reverse osmosis plants, new AC plants and refrigeration plants and installation of new sensors and equipment. In 2007, as the refit and repair of the ship was in progress, the yard realised that the scope of work was much larger than initially estimated and so a revised timeline for completion of the task of modernization was agreed upon by both Russian and Indian sides. With a revised timeline the delivery of ship was expected by end 2012.

Creation of the ski jump
Creation of the flight deck with structural modification to convert the VTOL carrier to a STOBAR carrier was the most intricate and arduous. The task involved installation of Sponsons to increase the breadth at the flight deck and a fitment of a new 14 degree ski jump, strengthening of arresting gear area, strengthening of run way area and elongation of the aft end to generate the required length of landing strip aft of the arresting gear. In all 234 new hull sections were installed to achieve the desired shape. Total steel work for carrying out structural modification on flight deck amounted to 2,500T.

Modification of super structure
The superstructure was modified to accommodate a host of sensors and equipment such as radars, electronic warfare suite and action information organisation system and other systems to suit the requirements of ship borne fighters and rotors. A very unique structural modification that was carried out on board the ship was the installation of the aft mast for accommodating various communication antennae.

Machinery Modification
Vikramaditya in its older avatar was powered by boilers fuelled by heavy oil. The re-equipping included replacement of these old boilers with state of the art boilers utilizing LSHSD and providing a steam capacity of 100 tonnes per hour each.

Electrical re-cabling
The initial estimate included replacement of only 1,400 kms of old cable with new cables. However, as degutting progressed and confined spaces were accessed it was realised that an additional 900 kilometres of cable will need to be replaced. Finally the mammoth task involved replacing 2,300 kilometres of cable, which is a little short of half of the entire coastline of India.

Outfitting
The modification plan of Vikramaditya was not restricted to the gears and sparks alone. The change also necessitated revamp of the living spaces and galleys to cater to the needs of the Indian men in uniform. Of 2,500 a total of 1,750 compartments were completely re-fabricated. A host of new galley equipment suited for preparation of Indian food such as dosas and chapatis was also installed.

Arrestor and restraining gears
The conversion of VTOL carrier to STOBAR involved fitment of three 30m wide arrester gears and three restraining gears. Installation of these equipment not only involved modification and strengthening of the flight deck but also changes to internal layout of compartments.

To sum it up, a total of 234 new hull sections were fabricated using 2,500 tonnes of steel which is almost equivalent to the standard displacement of a mid-size frigate. Repair and re-equipping of Vikramaditya to give a new lease of life as a full- fledged carrier was no mean task and was probably as demanding a task as constructing a similar tonnage ship from the drawing board. The task was enabled by the expertise and experience of the Russian designers and yard workers working hand in glove with Indian experts. The extreme cold weather conditions of winter only made the work environment harder.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Peregrine » 16 Nov 2013 04:53

syele wrote:http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/slide-show-1-all-you-wanted-to-know-about-ins-vikramaditya/20131115.htm#4

Machinery Modification
Vikramaditya in its older avatar was powered by boilers fuelled by heavy oil. The re-equipping included replacement of these old boilers with state of the art boilers utilizing LSHSD and providing a steam capacity of 100 tonnes per hour each.


I believe LSHSD = Low Sulphur High Speed Diesel. In the age when normal Large Marine Diesel Engines use Fuel Oil of 380 CST, I would request some of the GURUS to enlighten me as to why LSHSD should be used in Vikramaditya Boilers instead of Furnace or Heavy Oil.

Cheers Image

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Victor » 16 Nov 2013 06:21


MiG-29KUB walkthrough


MiG-29KUB carrier ops. Check out peculiar ceremony at 1:47 :shock:

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Altair » 16 Nov 2013 09:14

I believe LSHSD = Low Sulphur High Speed Diesel. In the age when normal Large Marine Diesel Engines use Fuel Oil of 380 CST, I would request some of the GURUS to enlighten me as to why LSHSD should be used in Vikramaditya Boilers instead of Furnace or Heavy Oil.

Better Milaege ROTFL

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 16 Nov 2013 09:48

isnt it apples to oranges ? the diesel on gorshy heats up the boilers which produce steam for the power shaft.
the merchant ships directly use a diesel engine and generally steam between 15-20knots.
maybe HSD is more energy density per volume than furnace oil but more expensive?

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 16 Nov 2013 10:09

Here is something from Vishnu Som

Exclusive: on board the INS Vikramaditya


http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/e ... tya/298086

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 16 Nov 2013 11:02

Interview with INS Vikramaditya’s commanding officer, Commodore Suraj Berry

Grateful for the professionalism and support of the Russian Navy - Commodore Berry

First of all, we would like to congratulate you on the successful completion of one of the most successful Indo-Russian military projects. Many Russian Naval personnel are envious about the fact you are going to get a state of the art aircraft carrier under your command that is more advanced than anything that Russia has. How do you feel at the moment and what are your main concerns at the moment?

Thank you very much for your kind wishes. I consider myself very fortunate to have been entrusted the command of this magnificent ship. While standing on the bridge and flight deck, I am conscious of this immense responsibility, trust and honour that has been bestowed upon me by the Indian Navy and my nation. The task of commissioning the ship and ensuring readiness of the crew for conduct of safe and efficient operational tasking along with flying is a challenge.

Effective planning, thorough professional training, creation of efficient operating procedures, high safety standards, institution of sound management and good administration principles along with the time honoured traditions, customs and discipline would effectively pave the way for the success of my team. The large number of officers and personnel of my crew are some of the finest professionals of our Navy and I am indeed very fortunate to be part of this team and their shipmate.

During the trials and refit of the ship you had to meet and cooperate with many people from the commissioning team. Could you tell us a little bit about the training of the Indian crewmembers?

Each time the Indian Navy acquired an aircraft carrier, it was a big induction, it is no different this time except the fact that this ship is the largest one to be acquired by the Indian Navy thus far. Displacing nearly 45,000 tonnes, the ship is indeed big. The advanced equipment and state of the art systems present peculiarities of handling and mastering. The Indian Navy selected well qualified personnel with adequate experience at sea and these personnel were put through an intense, well crafted and excellent training programme by the Russian Navy.

The methodology of training has suitably enabled all the Indian crew to imbibe the intricacies of operating and maintaining the ship. The experience of participating in the sea trials and practical training onboard has provided the crew an excellent opportunity to learn by observing the Russian specialists. Having been afforded the opportunity to steer the ship, anchor and manoeuvre her, I must say that the ship has excellent handling characteristics and steers much like a frigate belying its size. The power and manoeuvrability provide great flexibility in its operation.

Backed with experience of operating aircraft carriers and other helicopter carrying platforms, the Indian crew has been able to seamlessly gain hands-on experience on the equipment fitted onboard. The close association and mutual understanding with Russian crew has paved the way for a smooth transition for the Indian crew during trials and training, overcoming challenges and progressing towards independent operation of the ship. To summarize, I must say that each and every Russian crew has been outstanding and acted as a team.

How was the training of the Indian crew organised? Could you comment on the interaction with Russian Naval officers and sailors during the trials?

The interaction and professional understanding between the Russian and Indian Navy has been very good and has stood the test of time over decades. A sizable percentage of Indian Naval personnel have been in Russia for various projects in the past and fostered strong bonds of friendship and mutual respect. The bilateral exercise, ‘INDRA’ conducted annually between the two navies reflects the good and warm relations and is testimony of our commitment to each other.

The 12th Crew under command of Captain 1st Rank Igor Vaisilivich Raybko and the Indian commissioning crew have fostered close bonding during the course of trials. Whilst both the crew may not be proficient in the languages, the understanding is perfect and both crews joined hands in all evolutions onboard and have imbibed a good sense of mutual understanding. The joint planning/ coordination group of the Crew along with the Brigade Staff are responsible for the successful conduct of trials. Similarly, the joint working group on training has done a marvelous job in creating a unique concurrent trials and training programme onboard.

Onboard we undertook evolutions for trials, working side by side on the main propulsion plant, power generation/ distribution systems, radio electronic aids, handling movement of aircraft on deck, anchoring/ mooring to the buoy, tasks with boats etc. Our cooperation also extends to mutual participation in sports and cultural activities onboard. Both crews jointly celebrated the Russian Navy Day and Independence Day of India with flags of both countries flying side by side on the mast in 2012 and in 2013. This truly epitomized the joint-ness, mutual feeling of respect and understanding between the two crews. We are thankful for the professionalism of the Russian Navy and the support that they have rendered to us during each phase of the trials.

It is interesting to know what' route the carrier is going to follow while going from the White Sea to the Indian Ocean. When are you supposed to be received in India?

There are only two routes that the carrier can follow enroute to reaching its new port of Karwar in India. The primary route would be through the Suez Canal. In case of non-availability of services for passage through the Canal, the ship will sail around the Cape of Good Hope to India.

Could you please tell us about your family? How did they react to the news that you were appointed as the Commissioning Officer of Vikramaditya?

They felt very happy and honoured by the trust and faith reposed on me by our Navy.

What rules do you follow during important periods of your life and when you have to take individual decisions?


Work honestly and sincerely in the best interest of the Navy and the nation always. What’s good for the ship and Navy is good for all. Train and work hard as a team always, it’s the team and the ship that matter most. Forward planning and optimal utilisation of resources is key to success. Finally it’s the men behind the machine who are important. Indian Navy has excellent professionals who are ever willing and ready for any challenge, anywhere, anytime. It’s an honour to be part of such a force.

What memories will you keep about the time in Severodvinsk? Would you like to come back here again? For example to take a look at a cedar which you have planted yourself....

Severodvinsk has been a home away from home. The hospitality, respect and warmth that have been bestowed upon me in this maritime town has been unforgettable. I am sure that I will always remember Severodvinsk for the rest of my life. I would definitely like to come here again at some point of time and take a look at the cedar I have planted!

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby member_23455 » 16 Nov 2013 11:07

Image

OK, time for all the Sanskrit scholars to take a crack at the motto...

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Eric Leiderman » 16 Nov 2013 11:42

I would hope the boilers run on dual fuel
High speed diesel is 2 ==> 2.5 times the price of fuel oil.
there is a marginal difference in calorific value.
It could be a logistical reason, where by the other vessels are on High spped diesel hence ??
If she is going to do some serious blue water work then it is going to be expensive.

Usually a boiler is run on HFO however HFo needs to be heated up before it can be pumped/atomoised etc
on start up of a boiler the lines have been purged with diesel as u do not want FO to be stagnent in the lines for an extended period
therefore before shut down the boiler is fired on diesel so the lines have a lighter oil in them

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby rohanldsouza » 16 Nov 2013 13:39

Another Exclusive by NDTV

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/i ... od-related

It is interesting to see the BIG Item reported in Both the NDTV Videos make special mention on Calories Consumption per month.

1. 1 Lakh Eggs
2. 20,000 Litres of Milk
3. 16 Tons or Rice.

Almost like "Kitna Deta hai" question that everybody always asks when purchasing a "New Vehicle".

When you need to ensure the well being of the 1600 Sailors deployed for 45 days at a stretch on One Ship then they need to Eat?

One can't expect the 1600 Sailors & Officers to drink sea-water and sustain themselves , NOW Can You.

I only wish to see when the two carriers join up - now that would be amazing if they could cover that LIVE.

But All In All - A Great Thumbs Up for the Indian Navy for realising their vision and seeing it through no matter the delays and Cost. This is required if we are to play our part on the World Stage.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 16 Nov 2013 13:42


Lilo
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Lilo » 16 Nov 2013 13:47

RajitO wrote:Image

OK, time for all the Sanskrit scholars to take a crack at the motto...


One of the arrows from the middle four has its end fletching missing. Probably an instance of glue not holding .
Apart from that, the emblem itself is perfect in the sense that its very meaningful .

Ohh BTW the motto
Durakshya Saralakshya - Strike far, Strike Sure is similar as no 27 strike squadron having Jaguars
Last edited by Lilo on 16 Nov 2013 13:56, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby chetak » 16 Nov 2013 13:49

Eric Leiderman wrote:I would hope the boilers run on dual fuel
High speed diesel is 2 ==> 2.5 times the price of fuel oil.
there is a marginal difference in calorific value.
It could be a logistical reason, where by the other vessels are on High spped diesel hence ??
If she is going to do some serious blue water work then it is going to be expensive.

Usually a boiler is run on HFO however HFo needs to be heated up before it can be pumped/atomoised etc
on start up of a boiler the lines have been purged with diesel as u do not want FO to be stagnent in the lines for an extended period
therefore before shut down the boiler is fired on diesel so the lines have a lighter oil in them



The reasons for preference of LSHSD are .....

Ease of operations. Can comfortably power conventional diesel as well as gas turbine engines. Incidentally, in emergencies, even the Chetak engine can run on diesel fuel for some time.

Diesel power generation on board ships is preferred as it can be run even when the boilers are not fired. Turbo alternators only run when steam is available.

Simplified logistics for the fleet. Can be transferred to ships and submarines.

Easy availability of LSHSD. Simple equipment required for use, transportation and transfer.

Maintenance of boilers / GTs running on LSHSD is much simpler.

In emergency, LSHSD can be transferred directly to other ships at sea, even if the fleet tanker is not around.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby member_23455 » 16 Nov 2013 14:17

rohanldsouza wrote:Another Exclusive by NDTV

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/i ... od-related

It is interesting to see the BIG Item reported in Both the NDTV Videos make special mention on Calories Consumption per month.

1. 1 Lakh Eggs
2. 20,000 Litres of Milk
3. 16 Tons or Rice.

Almost like "Kitna Deta hai" question that everybody always asks when purchasing a "New Vehicle".

When you need to ensure the well being of the 1600 Sailors deployed for 45 days at a stretch on One Ship then they need to Eat?

One can't expect the 1600 Sailors & Officers to drink sea-water and sustain themselves , NOW Can You.

I only wish to see when the two carriers join up - now that would be amazing if they could cover that LIVE.

But All In All - A Great Thumbs Up for the Indian Navy for realising their vision and seeing it through no matter the delays and Cost. This is required if we are to play our part on the World Stage.


Not to defend the DDM but that stat typically directly comes from the Navy briefing as they want to impress upon folks the quantum jump of magnitude - the Nimitz class documentaries are also replete with such factoids.

What one wishes to happen in future briefings is for the Navy to spend some time educating folks on the big shift from a having 2 carriers to having 2 CBGs operational more or less constantly by 2018-20 when IAC-1 also comes online.

Steady, if slow, progress and we are 7-10 years away from applying max. combat power of these capabilities...hope that time flies just as the wait for Vikramaditya has.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Atri » 16 Nov 2013 16:03

Altair wrote:
I believe LSHSD = Low Sulphur High Speed Diesel. In the age when normal Large Marine Diesel Engines use Fuel Oil of 380 CST, I would request some of the GURUS to enlighten me as to why LSHSD should be used in Vikramaditya Boilers instead of Furnace or Heavy Oil.

Better Milaege ROTFL


:D..

With all the technical achievements by SDREs, some yindoo must have surely asked Russians this question - Average kitna deti hain?

by the way, about the motto - its vibhakti is as follows as far as I think -

दुर्रक्षया सरलक्षया - दुः रक्षया सरल क्षया -

दुःरक्षया - Something which is very badly protected (for us - Kind of like word Duryodhana - One fights badly OR in difficult manner (from enemy's perspective - a double negative)).
सरल क्षया - easy attrition.

literal translation - दुर्रक्षया सरलक्षया - (one who) easily causes attrition of even something which is very difficultly/badly protected (from our perspective).

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby nits » 16 Nov 2013 16:30

saumitra_j wrote:For Vikramaditya, the long journey home will be challenging — it will be unarmed, and will sail without weapons or fighter aircraft on board while making the transition from freezing seas to tropical waters. The Navy is planning a five-ship escort.the ship will operate once it joins the fleet.


Any reason why Navy choose not to deploy aircrafts on its maiden journey... for sure it would have added much needed extra security cover...

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 16 Nov 2013 16:50

I think its going to avoid the red sea route. pakis would like nothing better than do a USS cole on it.

it will probably keep well clear of coastal waters and sail around south africa. thats why the oiler & supply ship also so no need to visit any port.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Bob V » 16 Nov 2013 16:51

Where's our resident expert SNaik ? Where are the exclusive pics, kaffir ?

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby harbans » 16 Nov 2013 18:03

LSHSD is low Sulfur HSD and it is always better to run any boiler/ engine using HSD than using IFO 180/ 380 cst grade oils for very simple reasons like low carbon accumulation, less fouling, reduced funnel exhaust signatures, longer life of equipment, longer MTBO (mean time between overhauls), Higher CV etc. For ships that traverse a huge amount across continents it would make sense to use a lower grade fuel..for an A/C that need not traverse such distances it makes sense to use fuel that is least harmful to equipment. So on a cost benefit perspective of using HFO vs HSD they may have worked out that it would not be too much of a differential, considering higher costs of maintenance that would accrue with use of a lower grade fuel. LS HSD as opposed to HSD have one problem that presently many in the industry face, that of flash back issues. So handling with caution is a necessary requirement for such fuels.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby member_23455 » 16 Nov 2013 18:24

Photo Credits - Manu Pubby, Indian Express

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby SNaik » 16 Nov 2013 19:27

Bob V wrote:Where's our resident expert SNaik ? Where are the exclusive pics, kaffir ?


Relax, I'm not in Severodvinsk like Aroor :wink:

http://newstube.ru/m/692438

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Peregrine » 16 Nov 2013 19:37

Harbans Ji,

Many thanks for your detailed reply.

1. Up to 380 Cst is for Large Diesel Engines and for Boilers it is usually Furnace Oil.

2. Although the Vessel is powered by 200 Thousand HP let us say that the Cruising is at 18 Knots will require about 60 Thousand HP in which case the Vessel is going to Burn at about 300 Tonnes per day.

To the above figure must be added the Consumption for the Turbo-Generators.

As explained by Eric Leiderman Ji the Consumption comparison between the two fuels is that the Price of LSHSD is at least Twice the Price of HFO or Furnace Oil or Bunker C. LSHSD is presently about US$ 1,000 and that of IFO 380 CST US$ 600 so it is safe to assume that the Bunker C or Furnace Oil or Fuel Oil should be around US$ 500 per MT.

Thus while cruising at 18 Knots on about 60,000 HP consuming 300 Tonnes would make a difference of US Dollars 150,000 per day. For say 30 days that would be US$ 4,500,000.

As such with the Turbo-Generators one would venture a Guess of the Difference in Cost being about US$ Five Million for the Voyage of the Vikramaditya from Severodvinsk.

It would be interesting to know about the Power of the Turbo and/or Diesel Generators to work out the difference between the Port Fuel Costs in respect of the Vessel’s Fuel Consumed.

BTW : I cannot comment on Marine Propulsion Plants but can only state that all the Oil Burning Power Generation Plants – to my knowledge – burn Furnace Oil.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Peregrine » 16 Nov 2013 19:44

chetak wrote:
Eric Leiderman wrote:I would hope the boilers run on dual fuel
High speed diesel is 2 ==> 2.5 times the price of fuel oil.
there is a marginal difference in calorific value.
It could be a logistical reason, where by the other vessels are on High spped diesel hence ??
If she is going to do some serious blue water work then it is going to be expensive.

Usually a boiler is run on HFO however HFo needs to be heated up before it can be pumped/atomoised etc
on start up of a boiler the lines have been purged with diesel as u do not want FO to be stagnent in the lines for an extended period
therefore before shut down the boiler is fired on diesel so the lines have a lighter oil in them



The reasons for preference of LSHSD are .....

Ease of operations. Can comfortably power conventional diesel as well as gas turbine engines. Incidentally, in emergencies, even the Chetak engine can run on diesel fuel for some time.

Diesel power generation on board ships is preferred as it can be run even when the boilers are not fired. Turbo alternators only run when steam is available.

Simplified logistics for the fleet. Can be transferred to ships and submarines.

Easy availability of LSHSD. Simple equipment required for use, transportation and transfer.

Maintenance of boilers / GTs running on LSHSD is much simpler.

In emergency, LSHSD can be transferred directly to other ships at sea, even if the fleet tanker is not around.


Chetak Ji :

Remember that the New Aircraft Carrier INS Vikramaditya may - on an average spend around Ninety Days at Sea Annually. In case she spends more than Ninety days at Sea Annually I have Salt & Pepper Cellars at the ready to EAT MY HAT.

Added Later :

An Aircraft Carrier Group ventures at sea with a REPLENISHMENT TANKER being part and Parcel of the AC Group. In this case I reckon it will be the INS Jyoti of about 25,000 Tonnes Capacity.

Added even Later :

Is the Indian Navy going to convert all its Steam Turbine propelled Ships to consuming LSHSD from its presently consuming Furnace Oil?

Cheers Image
Last edited by Peregrine on 16 Nov 2013 20:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby harbans » 16 Nov 2013 20:00

Pere ji, i don't think 60,000 BHP will be required for an 18 kn cruising speed for a 45k ton streamlined ship like Vikramaditya. 150K ton tankers run on 15-20K BHP at around 14 knots. 380 or 180 cst is used for Boilers too nowadays, just have to heat it to recommended injection viscosity, but problems related to fouling, tubes become more dominant. If the exhaust is running generators or supercharging equipment or the heat is being used for other purposes expect massive accumulation of carbon. If the fuel contains Vanadium, catalytic fines one can expect damage to nozzle blades and fittings if not removed effectively. With HFO grade fuel one will have to put in place massive heating coils in storage tanks, refinery/ purification equipment on a massive scale. Much of this can be done away using HSD. Prices of 1000 USD/ ton for HSD or 600 USD/ton for HFO are probably market bunker prices after assorted taxes. For the IN the tax parts should not be taken into consideration.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 16 Nov 2013 20:10

Since we have been able to integrated nuclear power reactor in the closer confines of a submarine , what are the new logistics/technology that have to be developed to enable (future) nuclear propulsion for a possible indigenous aircraft carrier ?

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Peregrine » 16 Nov 2013 20:12

harbans wrote:Pere ji, i don't think 60,000 BHP will be required for an 18 kn cruising speed for a 45k ton streamlined ship like Vikramaditya. 150K ton tankers run on 15-20K BHP at around 14 knots. 380 or 180 cst is used for Boilers too nowadays, just have to heat it to recommended injection viscosity, but problems related to fouling, tubes become more dominant. If the exhaust is running generators or supercharging equipment or the heat is being used for other purposes expect massive accumulation of carbon. If the fuel contains Vanadium, catalytic fines one can expect damage to nozzle blades and fittings if not removed effectively. With HFO grade fuel one will have to put in place massive heating coils in storage tanks, refinery/ purification equipment on a massive scale. Much of this can be done away using HSD. Prices of 1000 USD/ ton for HSD or 600 USD/ton for HFO are probably market bunker prices after assorted taxes. For the IN the tax parts should not be taken into consideration.


Harbans Ji :

Many thanks above.

The 150 K Oil Tankers are Basically DIESEL PROPELLED and as such use 380 CST. The same fuel is used for Boilers - IN PORT ONLY - as at Sea, I believe, the Exhaust Gases are used to meet the Vessel's Steam Requirements so I suppose they do not carry a separate Tank full of Furnace Oil - Bunker C.

The Bunker Prices I have quoted are - I believe - International "Duty Free - Export" Prices. INS Vikramaditya will be Bunkered in India at Indian Prices!

I would also direct to you the question I have asked Chetak Ji i.e. Is the Indian Navy going to convert all its Steam Turbine propelled Ships to consuming LSHSD from its presently consuming Furnace Oil?

Cheers Image

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 16 Nov 2013 20:19

"Strike Far Strike Sure"

http://cs317430.vk.me/v317430895/626d/PP3JFSr6GV8.jpg

My my ... what a fleet we have now!

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby harbans » 16 Nov 2013 20:34

The 150 K Oil Tankers are Basically DIESEL PROPELLED and as such use 380 CST. The same fuel is used for Boilers - IN PORT ONLY - as at Sea, I believe, the Exhaust Gases are used to meet the Vessel's Steam Requirements so I suppose they do not carry a separate Tank full of Furnace Oil - Bunker C.


I think most ports have started putting restrictions on use of heavier fuel grades in port and required LS fuel usage.

Is the Indian Navy going to convert all its Steam Turbine propelled Ships to consuming LSHSD from its presently consuming Furnace Oil?


I don't think a composite policy decision regarding that can be taken. Maybe on a case by case basis. Many equipment particularly pre 2000 built may not be suitable for HFO use and would continue to run on HSD. PS: I think Furnace oil and HFO are basically one and same by ISO.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 16 Nov 2013 21:01

SNaik wrote:
Bob V wrote:Where's our resident expert SNaik ? Where are the exclusive pics, kaffir ?


Relax, I'm not in Severodvinsk like Aroor :wink:

http://newstube.ru/m/692438


SNaik , Any info on the EW/ESM suite installed on Vikramaditya ? Thanks.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Karan M » 16 Nov 2013 21:26

I thought it should be the Ellora suite as on regular IN ships. Wonder whether it is a Russian suite.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby chetak » 16 Nov 2013 21:39

Peregrine wrote:{quote="chetak"}{quote="Eric Leiderman"}I would hope the boilers run on dual fuel
Added Later :

An Aircraft Carrier Group ventures at sea with a REPLENISHMENT TANKER being part and Parcel of the AC Group. In this case I reckon it will be the INS Jyoti of about 25,000 Tonnes Capacity.

Added even Later :

Is the Indian Navy going to convert all its Steam Turbine propelled Ships to consuming LSHSD from its presently consuming Furnace Oil?

Cheers Image


Peregrine ji,

IIRC, There haven't been any FFO consuming IN warships for many years now. Nothing left to convert.:)

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 16 Nov 2013 21:42

On Bridge ( Shiv Aroor )


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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 16 Nov 2013 21:54

Two questions on ECM:

-if the ECM is not anisotropic, it should be trivial to determine the position of the emitter.
-the ECM presumably needs to be off for returning aircraft, which gives away the ship position/EM guidance transmissions also would reveal the ship.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 16 Nov 2013 22:12

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=20556
I am sorry to say, we have gone leaps and bounds on news headlines like these

INS Vikramaditya will be unarmed on its 60-day journey home

Is ddm trying to nudge some somali pakis to do a uss cole?

SICK!!!


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