Mig-21 Showdown begins in 2014

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Re: Mig-21 Showdown begins in 2014

Postby Karan M » 30 Dec 2013 20:50

Rajya Sabha
ANSWERED ON 07.08.2013

Question: Will the Minister of DEFENCE be pleased to satate :-

(a) whether as per recent policy decisions, more than 26 per cent FDI will be allowed in Defence, subject to approval from the Cabinet Committee on Security; and

(b) the possibility of this step compromising vital national defence information by providing the same to foreign firms?

Answer: Minister of Defence (Shri A.K. Antony)

(a) FDI up to 26% is permissible in the defence sector, subject to licensing. However, wherever FDI beyond 26% is likely to result in access to modern and state-of-the-art technology into the country, decisions can be taken to allow higher FDI on a case-to-case basis with approval of the Cabinet Committee on Security.

(b) All such concerns shall be addressed while taking approval from Cabinet Committee on Security on a case-to-case basis.

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Re: Mig-21 Showdown begins in 2014

Postby Karan M » 30 Dec 2013 20:50

Rajya Sabha
ANSWERED ON 07.08.2013

Question: Will the Minister of DEFENCE be pleased to satate :-

ANSWERED ON 07.08.2013

(a) whether there was a proposal to hike Foreign Direct Investment in defence sector which this Ministry did not agree;

(b) if so, the details thereof;

(c) whether a case by case examination to increase FDI limit has been agreed to; and

(d) if so, the reasons therefor?

Answer: Minister of Defence (Shri A.K. Antony)

(a) & (b): Yes, Sir. The proposal was to allow FDI to go up to 49%, inclusive of portfolio flows, in defence production.

(c) & (d): FDI up to 26% is permissible in the defence sector, subject to licensing. However, wherever FDI beyond 26% is likely to result in access to modern and state-of-the-art technology into the country, decisions can be taken to allow higher FDI on a case-to-case basis with the approval of the Cabinet Committee on Security.

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Re: Mig-21 Showdown begins in 2014

Postby Austin » 08 Jan 2018 21:02

As a MiG-21 variant flies into the sunset, a pilot recalls how he almost crashed in it

AVM Arjun Subramaniam (retd)

From IAF’s Tezpur base, rookie fighter pilots in the early 1980s went on to hone their air combat skills in MiG-21 squadrons.


The Hawkeyes or the 108 Squadron of the Indian Air Force flew into the sunset a few weeks ago. Equipped with the MiG-21 M or the T-96 as it is commonly called in the IAF, the photograph of the Chief of Air Staff flying the last sortie made me nostalgic.

The winter of 1982 saw me scrape through my MiG-21 operational flying training (MOFT) syllabus in Tezpur, Assam, which was for almost three decades, the hub of advanced fighter training in the IAF. Flying the oldest version of the MiG-21 in the IAF, at the time called the T-77 Close Formation, almost proved to be my nemesis had it not been for a benevolent flight commander who gave me a couple of extra sorties to iron out my inconsistencies in maintaining station.

Had it not been for him, I may never have flown fighters. From Tezpur, rookie fighter pilots in the early 1980s went on to hone their air combat and gunnery skills in operational MiG-21 squadrons that comprised three variants — T-77, T-96 and BIS.

Six of us from the 128th pilots’ course shivered our way into MiG Alley, a row of damp, grey, single-storey and single room accommodation in Air Force Station,
Adampur, in the first week of January 1983. We were attached to No. 108 Squadron and happy to be part of what was then, and is still one of the largest and most active fighter bases in the IAF.

The 108 squadron at the time was just recovering from a bad patch and was commanded by a typical ‘seat of the pants’ and happy-go-lucky fighter pilot with excellent leadership skills, both in the air and on the ground, Wing Commander Ashley Rodrigues. Complementing him as flight commander was a stern, meticulous and no-nonsense Anglo-Indian, Squadron Leader H.O. Robey.

The next six months were a tough grind as we honed our skills under the watchful eyes of a committed bunch of flight lieutenants and squadron leaders. From that bunch of Hawkeyes of 1983-84, I guess I was the last to call it a day from the IAF.

As we grew in confidence and approached our Day Ops status (the first milestone in a fighter pilot’s early career), the competition between all of us intensified, particularly when it came to proving ourselves in air combat and air-to-ground firing. As the healthy competition intensified, so did our risk-taking propensity and the severity of the mistakes we made in the air and on the ground. This is where the mentoring, monitoring and a timely rap on the knuckles from the senior flight lieutenants and young squadron leaders ensured that any suicidal tendencies were nipped in the bud.

I still remember the crisp winter mornings in Jaisalmer, Rajasthan, in December 1983, or maybe January 1984, during an annual air-to-ground weapons training detachment; all of us were happy to be away from the sub-zero temperatures at home base and were thoroughly enjoying our firing. One incident from this detachment will follow me to my grave and still gives me the shivers and relates to what is called in fighter pilot language ‘target fixation’.

This is a condition wherein, a pilot gets so engrossed in tracking a target on the ground while in a dive that he loses track of his relative proximity to the ground, violates the minimum height for pull-out and often digs a hole in the area around the target at speeds of over 850 kmph and finds himself in a coffin. The only difference at times is if there is an alert Range Safety Officer who yells out on radio ‘pull out’ and this, at times, jerks the pilot back into reality, or if there is some external stimulus that restores situational awareness and elicits the appropriate psychomotor response that averts disaster.

In my case, it was the day after I had fired a couple of good rockets and wanted good gun scores as well and wanted to go in real close and open fire, confident that I would be able to pull out in time. By this time, I had transgressed the firing window and should have pulled out of the dive. But I chose to continue, with my eyes fixed on the square cloth target for a fraction of a second more before I squeezed the trigger till I heard a scream, ‘Subbu, pull out’.

Luckily, I yanked back at the stick and pulled out with almost 8 Gs, blew the target off, not with my bullets, but with my exhaust wake and landed back, drenched in sweat and trembling, but glad to be alive.

Fighter pilots across the world have a special affection for their first squadron, and so was it for me with the Hawkeyes.

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Re: Mig-21 Showdown begins in 2014

Postby Manish_P » 09 Jan 2018 15:50

Austin wrote:AVM Arjun Subramaniam (retd)
Luckily, I yanked back at the stick and pulled out with almost 8 Gs, blew the target off, not with my bullets, but with my exhaust wake and landed back, drenched in sweat and trembling, but glad to be alive.


:shock: Just another day at the office, in the IAF

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Re: Mig-21 Showdown begins in 2014

Postby Austin » 27 Jan 2018 22:12

Night Sortie In MIG - 21, ''The Vintage Aircraft"


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Re: Mig-21 Showdown begins in 2014

Postby Austin » 27 Jan 2018 22:23

MiG-21: The Invincible Multi-Role Aircraft


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Re: Mig-21 Showdown begins in 2014

Postby K_Rohit » 30 Jan 2018 15:51

^^^^^^^^^^
Which version of the Mig 21 is this? I always thought that the RWR was only fitted to the Bison? This version with the RWR is the Bis?

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Re: Mig-21 Showdown begins in 2014

Postby Kartik » 31 Jan 2018 05:31

The MiG-21M also featured a RWR, and so did the MiG-21Bis. The big difference came with the Bison that had a digital Tarang RWR.

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Re: Mig-21 Showdown begins in 2014

Postby Kartik » 31 Jan 2018 05:33

One question for those who may know about this- the IAF had gone in for 126 MiG-21 Bison upgrade kits, with an option for 50 more. Does anyone know if those 50 options were converted to firm orders? Considering that there are MiG-21Bis still flying today and the MiG-21Bis will finally be retired from the fleet in 2018, it would've made sense to upgrade those Bis with some flying life left in them, to the Bison standard as well.

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Re: Mig-21 Showdown begins in 2014

Postby nachiket » 01 Feb 2018 01:51

Kartik wrote:One question for those who may know about this- the IAF had gone in for 126 MiG-21 Bison upgrade kits, with an option for 50 more. Does anyone know if those 50 options were converted to firm orders? Considering that there are MiG-21Bis still flying today and the MiG-21Bis will finally be retired from the fleet in 2018, it would've made sense to upgrade those Bis with some flying life left in them, to the Bison standard as well.

...especially considering that the older Mig-21M/MF is still flying. Recent pic of ACM Dhanoa at Jaisalmer shows No. 35 squadron with its Mig-21M/MFs.

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Re: Mig-21 Showdown begins in 2014

Postby Kartik » 01 Feb 2018 03:01

Those MiG-21Ms will be gone by this year as well, along with the MiG-21Bis variant.

So will that leave just 126 Bison or 126+50 Bison?

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Re: Mig-21 Showdown begins in 2014

Postby nachiket » 01 Feb 2018 03:08

The number will be 126-attrition. Some Bisons have crashed as well. I have never read any report about the 50 options being exercised. Safe to say the Bison numbers never went beyond 126.

There are 6 Bison squadrons that I know of - 3,4,21,23,32,51. If the 50 options were exercised, we would have seen more.

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Re: Mig-21 Showdown begins in 2014

Postby Austin » 01 May 2018 20:53

Flying & fighting in the MiG-21: In conversation with Air Marshal Matheswaran
Image

Small, fast and wickedly agile, the Soviet-designed MiG-21 was an extremely potent warplane. For two decades it formed the backbone of the Indian fighter force. We spoke to Air Marshal M Matheswaran (retd) about what it was like to fly and fight in the MiG-21.


When did you first fly a MiG-21 and what were your first impressions?

I began flying the MiG-21s in 1976. At that time it was the prime aircraft in the Air Force. Quite obviously it was great to be selected to go into a MiG-21 squadron. First impressions – fascinating, sleek, and fast.

What were the greatest limitations of the MiG-21?

None really. Particularly in performance, considering that period and environment. However, since it was truly light it carried limited fuel. Hence, range and endurance was low, as we entered the mid 80s and 90s.

Image

What were the best qualities of the MiG-21?


Small, low visual and radar signature, agile, excellent acceleration, and good thrust-to-weight ratio.

How would you rate the MiG-21 in terms of:


Acceleration? Excellent

Sustained turning? Good

Instantaneous turning? Excellent.

High altitude performance? Good

Image

Which aircraft have you ‘fought’ in training exercises? Of these which were the most formidable fighters?

Mirage 2000, MiG-29, MiG-23 MF, Gnat, Jaguar, and a few others. MiG-29 and M2000 were the tough ones.

“IT COULD GO SUPERSONIC AT LOW LEVEL, OUT-ACCELERATE THE MIRAGE 2000 (HENCE F-16) AT LOW LEVEL. IT HAD A VERY POWERFUL ENGINE WITH A SECOND REHEAT, A GOOD SIGHTING SYSTEM AND A GOOD RADAR”

What tips would you offer for ‘fighting’ these types?


In air-to-air combat performance the MiG-21Bis can hold itself. The Mirage 2000 and the F-16 would outlast due to longer endurance, better radar and also in strike role.


Do you believe the MiG-21 was the right choice for the IAF, what alternative fighters could have been procured at the time?


The MiG-21 was chosen in 1963. The US did not offer any, and its best at that time – the Phantom – was not available. However, the Phantom would have been better suited to the strike role. The F-104 was not a patch on the MiG-21. India had French and British aircraft for strike role. The MiG 21 was very good, particularly in air defence, and high altitude interception. Given the production and TOT advantages as well, the decision to go for MiG-21 was excellent.

What equipment would you have like to have seen integrated onto the MiG-21?

The question is too generic. You need to specify time and environment. Anyway, in the 90s we felt acutely the need to have HUD, a digital navattack system, and a new radar. This we did achieve by 2003-04, although 3 years late and some teething problems. Finally it was an excellent solution. The aircraft was called MiG-21 Bison. The ‘Fishbed’s major limitation was its lack of gyro-sight.

Image

Did you fly the MiG-21 into combat? Would you have been confident flying it into combat?


I had mobilised for war at least three times. I did active ORP duties for many years in early career.

By 1999 Kargil war, I was too senior, and hence in senior operational management role.

What is the greatest myth or misunderstanding of the MiG-21?


I suppose myth and misunderstanding were more about reliability . That was a fallacy, that Russian technology was unreliable. Russian technology was very robust and reliable, provided you ensured your inventory management and logistics well. In performance much of the myths came from Israelis victories against the Arabs. This was primarily due to poor pilot skills and training. India evolved its own training methodologies and tactics development. Americans knew the aircraft well from their Vietnam experience. So finally any aircraft is only as good as the man behind the machine. The MiG-21, in its time, was an exceptional aircraft in good hands.

Image

Which variant of the MiG-21 did you fly? What were the various merits of the different Indian variants?


All variants, starting from the Fishbed. The Fishbed (we called it Type 74) was very light, highly agile, and the most beautiful to handle, even in extreme low speeds. The subsequent versions became heavier, as they increased their internal fuel, more equipment etc. The MiG-21M was heavier, but had the same engine (R-11), as the Fishbed, and so became less efficient at low speeds. MiG-21MF had an improved radar and a more powerful engine (R-13), and so had similar performance as the Fishbed. The MiG-21Bis was the best of them, it was upgraded for multi-role operations. With wing tanks it had a good range. It could go supersonic at low level, out accelerate the Mirage 2000 (hence F-16) at low level. It had a very powerful engine (R-33) with a second reheat, a good sighting system and a good radar (Almaz). The Bis’s nose was heavier, and so its slow speed handling was slightly inferior to the Fishbed, but its other strengths made it a truly classy aircraft. The Bis was later upgraded to Bison, which was excellent.

How did the MiG-21 compare to the Mirage 2000? How would it compare with an F-16?


In air-to-air combat performance the MiG-21Bis can hold itself. The M2000 and the F-16 would outlast due to longer endurance, better radar – and they are also superior in the strike role.

What advice would you give to pilots converting to the MiG-21?

It’s now too late. The MiG–21 has been phased out. In any case, for a young pilot, off the training academy, the MiG–21 is not an easy aircraft. It required the best of guys to be selected, those with above average skills.

Did the MiG-21 have any eccentric handling characteristics?


No

What was your most memorable mission or flight and why?


Many. However, I will name one. Quite early in the operational conversion syllabus one had to do the flight at the highest operational envelope height. So here I put on the supersonic suit, its pretty much the same outfit worn by Yuri Gagarin, and I did the supersonic profile. You climb to 16 km in a quick profile, accelerate to 2.1 Mach, and then zoom to 21km, and fly an interception profile accelerating from 1.8M to 2.1M. This part was dropped in later years (after the mid eighties). Quite obviously, later generation never got to wear the supersonic suit, except for those select few who flew the MiG-25.

Image

What was the MiG-21 cockpit like?


Quite fine for a design of its times. Compared to the F-16’s bubble cockpit, its rear visibility was limited, as was the visibility below the nose. The cockpit was old instrumentation and cannot be compared to today’s glass cockpit. Air-conditioning came on after take-off. On ground it was air ventilated. For Indian climates, it would be fairly warm on ground. However, did not matter for hardcore, passionate fighter boys.

Did you have confidence in the Russian armament and avionics?

Yes.

How much variation was there in within the MiG-21 fleet, were certain aircraft better than others?


Basic aircraft aerodynamics was the same. But differences included weight, thrust, and systems. Bis was the most different. For example it had Boundary Layer Control, which made a major difference in its approach/landing profile.

Which three words best describe the MiG-21?


Light, agile, and excellent.

Image

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Re: Mig-21 Showdown begins in 2014

Postby Haridas » 01 May 2018 21:14

^^^ Maaty wrote the initial ASR for MMRCA, he used to brag about it in our meetings.

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Re: Mig-21 Showdown begins in 2014

Postby shiv » 01 May 2018 21:38


I have read articles by Suresh, Philip Rajkumar and Tipnis about the MiG 21. None show as much ego as this man who makes a contradictory statement in the article

What were the greatest limitations of the MiG-21?

None really.


Then he says
the MiG–21 is not an easy aircraft. It required the best of guys to be selected, those with above average skills.


So there is an elite among elite system being set up here - where only a few get to fighters and even fewer get MiG 21 because they are hard to fly.

I have seen fair to middling cardiac surgeons with steady hands and excellent cardiac surgeons with shaky hands. The statement that an average pilot can fly the Tejas rings a strong positive bell in my mind. Heck you don't need to be superman if you have a safe machine that lets you do the fighting while it flies itself.

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Re: Mig-21 Showdown begins in 2014

Postby Karthik S » 01 May 2018 21:55

shiv wrote:

I have read articles by Suresh, Philip Rajkumar and Tipnis about the MiG 21. None show as much ego as this man who makes a contradictory statement in the article

What were the greatest limitations of the MiG-21?

None really.


Then he says
the MiG–21 is not an easy aircraft. It required the best of guys to be selected, those with above average skills.


So there is an elite among elite system being set up here - where only a few get to fighters and even fewer get MiG 21 because they are hard to fly.

I have seen fair to middling cardiac surgeons with steady hands and excellent cardiac surgeons with shaky hands. The statement that an average pilot can fly the Tejas rings a strong positive bell in my mind. Heck you don't need to be superman if you have a safe machine that lets you do the fighting while it flies itself.


Does that mean we've been sending our best pilots in MiG 21s all this while? I know that Israeli F-15 pilots are best in their Air Force, therefore may probably will be best among the world. Don't other Air Forces follow similar convention wherein the best pilots operate the most advanced and lethal fighters in the inventory?

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Re: Mig-21 Showdown begins in 2014

Postby shiv » 01 May 2018 22:02

Karthik S wrote:
Does that mean we've been sending our best pilots in MiG 21s all this while? I know that Israeli F-15 pilots are best in their Air Force, therefore may probably will be best among the world. Don't other Air Forces follow similar convention wherein the best pilots operate the most advanced and lethal fighters in the inventory?

This is the problem with the word "best". When it comes to a difficult aircraft "best" would be a person who is calm under stress and has quick reflexes etc. But unfortunately all this has nothing to do with fighting. It's about multitasking to stay alive and in the air while fighting also if need be - making sure you don't exceed flight limits, making sure that you have enough fuel to get back etc. If some of this can be automated by FBW the entire definition of "best" changes. Every landing in the MiG 21 was a sort of challenge and at least a few of "best" pilots were lost that way.

Matheswaran is showing off.

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Re: Mig-21 Showdown begins in 2014

Postby Kartik » 01 May 2018 23:11

The only thing is that since he rates the MiG-21 so highly in STR, ITR and high altitude performance, he should be more than happy with the Tejas' performance in these areas. It will exceed the MiG-21 in STR and ITR.

All these points he made about the MiG-21 apply to the Tejas as well.


What were the best qualities of the MiG-21?

Small, low visual and radar signature, agile, excellent acceleration, and good thrust-to-weight ratio.



Good radar? On the MiG-21? He's not talking about the Bison's Kopyo either, since that only came around late 1990s.

“It could go supersonic at low level, out-accelerate the Mirage 2000 (hence F-16) at low level. It had a very powerful engine with a second reheat, a good sighting system and a good radar”


And look at the glowing praise for the Bison, which is completely overshadowed by the Tejas in terms of avionics and radar.

What equipment would you have like to have seen integrated onto the MiG-21?

The question is too generic. You need to specify time and environment. Anyway, in the 90s we felt acutely the need to have HUD, a digital navattack system, and a new radar. This we did achieve by 2003-04, although 3 years late and some teething problems. Finally it was an excellent solution. The aircraft was called MiG-21 Bison. The ‘Fishbed’s major limitation was its lack of gyro-sight.


Wow! The worst ergonomics of fighters and he claims the cockpit was "quite fine for its times"! Comparing it to the F-16 is dumb, since the F-16 has the best visibility of any fighter to date.

What was the MiG-21 cockpit like?

Quite fine for a design of its times. Compared to the F-16’s bubble cockpit, its rear visibility was limited, as was the visibility below the nose. The cockpit was old instrumentation and cannot be compared to today’s glass cockpit. Air-conditioning came on after take-off. On ground it was air ventilated. For Indian climates, it would be fairly warm on ground. However, did not matter for hardcore, passionate fighter boys.


really, the bias shines through. Clearly, you can see an emotional bond formed with the aircraft, which means he glosses over its known shortcomings. All the while talking trash about the Tejas which bests the MiG-21 in all areas, except for transonic acceleration.

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Re: Mig-21 Showdown begins in 2014

Postby naird » 01 May 2018 23:56

Kartik wrote:
really, the bias shines through. Clearly, you can see an emotional bond formed with the aircraft, which means he glosses over its known shortcomings. All the while talking trash about the Tejas which bests the MiG-21 in all areas, except for transonic acceleration.


Sorry but is there a history that Matheswaran has with Tejas ? Not aware of any.

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Re: Mig-21 Showdown begins in 2014

Postby Kartik » 02 May 2018 00:45

Yes in his interactions in one of the round tables on the MRCA, as well as in his articles on Vayu and elsewhere, he has been critical of the program. Spurious reasons mostly.

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Re: Mig-21 Showdown begins in 2014

Postby Austin » 02 May 2018 08:19

He is both praise worthy and critical of aircraft and he says it’s a fine design “in its time” when comparing to F-16 or others , obviously bison has been praised by every one who flew it and I know and spoke with pilots who did , if 21 wasn’t good it wouldn’t have survived this long in iaf , bison would last till 2025.

21 is a pilots aircraft but also an unforgiving one because if the pilot does not know the aircraft well and it’s flying envelop then it will let the pilot do what it wants to with little warning unlike fbw stuff they fly today where you can’t overide beyond sw limits set , that creates complacency and leads to forced and unforced errors on part of pilot and accidents

21 is as good or as bad as the pilot that flies it hence the term pilots aircraft

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Re: Mig-21 Showdown begins in 2014

Postby Indranil » 02 May 2018 09:05

Let’s stop discussing the Retd. AM here. I have strong reservations for him too. But discussing him does not serve anybody any good.

Austin, i am a big fan of the Mig21. And yes, to love it, you have to put it in the right timeframe. But, pilot friendly, that it was NOT.

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Re: Mig-21 Showdown begins in 2014

Postby Austin » 02 May 2018 09:24

Indranil wrote:Let’s stop discussing the Retd. AM here. I have strong reservations for him too. But discussing him does not serve anybody any good.


Just to be updated what did he do ? Was he in any way instrumental in stopping/delaying Tejas program ,the only thing I know about him is he was a critique of tejas but there were Airchief that criticised and praised the same program ?

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Re: Mig-21 Showdown begins in 2014

Postby chetak » 02 May 2018 09:39

Karthik S wrote:
shiv wrote:I have read articles by Suresh, Philip Rajkumar and Tipnis about the MiG 21. None show as much ego as this man who makes a contradictory statement in the article



Then he says


So there is an elite among elite system being set up here - where only a few get to fighters and even fewer get MiG 21 because they are hard to fly.

I have seen fair to middling cardiac surgeons with steady hands and excellent cardiac surgeons with shaky hands. The statement that an average pilot can fly the Tejas rings a strong positive bell in my mind. Heck you don't need to be superman if you have a safe machine that lets you do the fighting while it flies itself.


Does that mean we've been sending our best pilots in MiG 21s all this while? I know that Israeli F-15 pilots are best in their Air Force, therefore may probably will be best among the world. Don't other Air Forces follow similar convention wherein the best pilots operate the most advanced and lethal fighters in the inventory?


If you see some of the malaysian pilots handling the sukhoi, it will turn this logic on it's head, the flawed world wide logic of our pilots are the best.

Even the pakis claim that their pilots are the world's best. Are we also to believe such congenital liars??

There are good and bad pilots everywhere. Situational awareness is the key and often the only difference between life and death.

No single country or airforce has the lock on this.

As far as the MiG 21 goes, follow the incremental improvements of the series, the MiG 21 was a freak design that astounded everyone, including its designers. It was no run of the mill aircraft. The MiG design bureau has never produced a freak aircraft of this type again.

Let's hope that they will do so again someday.

If it weren't for the weak legs, it would have left a far, far greater impact on the fighter world.

Personally, this lean, mean machine is the best looking fighter that I have ever seen, bar none.

A lot of the "fatal accidents" were simply because instructions were not followed and foolish attempts were made to "save" the aircraft and such logic mostly resulted in the loss of both aircraft and pilot when in a great many cases it could have simply been limited to loss of aircraft only.

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Re: Mig-21 Showdown begins in 2014

Postby shiv » 02 May 2018 11:55

The following statement about the MiG 21 made by Matheeswaran need to be seen in the perspective of the image posted below
“IT COULD GO SUPERSONIC AT LOW LEVEL, OUT-ACCELERATE THE MIRAGE 2000 (HENCE F-16) AT LOW LEVEL.”


Image

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Re: Mig-21 Showdown begins in 2014

Postby Philip » 02 May 2018 12:27

I think it was over 15 yrs ago that with the LCA nowhere on the horizon as far as induction into IAF service, Shiv and I half-joked that the best replacement for the MIG-21 was the ...MIG-21 itself (new built Bison versions)! A pity we never built another 100 or so.Despite their range limitations,etc.,they would've been very useful point defence fighters uite capable with more modern missiles to take on the Paki JF-17s,legacy Mirages,and F-16s,as the Yanquis found out in the first COPE exercises many moons ago.

https://www.rbth.com/blogs/2014/02/16/c ... mbat_33111
Cope India: How the IAF rewrote the rules of air combat
Exactly 10 years ago, in the space of just 13 days, the Indian Air Force dealt a massive blow to the myth of invincibility of the US Air Force. At the Cope India exercise held at the Gwalior air force range on February 15-27, 2004, Indian pilots reportedly notched up an astounding 9:1 kill ratio against the all-powerful USAF, sending shock waves through the American defence establishment.

About the different IAF fighters the six F-15Cs from the 3rd Wing encountered, Snodgrass said: “The two most formidable IAF aircraft proved to be the MiG-21 Bison, an upgraded version of the Russian-made baseline MiG-21, and the Su-30MK Flanker, also made in Russia”.


Also, not underestimating the enemy would be good idea too. For instance, while the performances of the IAF’s Mirage-2000 and Su-30 were expected, the MiG-21 Bison came as a nasty surprise to the USAF. The positive attributes of the MiG-21 such as low radar visibility, instantaneous turn rate and “jackrabbit acceleration" were critical factors at Cope India.

India celebrates ‘Golden Jubilee’ of MiG-21’s association with the IAF *(It's now 60 years!)


Plus, its new of helmet mounted sight and high-off-boresight R-73 air-to-air missiles turned the MiG-21 into a “Great Equaliser” in the WVR (within visual range) combat scenario. It also validated the claim of Russian officials that they are capable of converting second generation late-model MiG-21 fighters to Generation 4 combat platforms.

This has serious implications for air forces inducting stealth fighters. At some stage aircraft like the F-22 and F-35 will have to come within visual range and that’s when pocket rockets like the MiG-21 can be deadly. As Ben Lambeth of the Rand Corporation so succinctly put it, “In visual combat everybody dies at the same rate.”

Austin
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Re: Mig-21 Showdown begins in 2014

Postby Austin » 04 May 2018 22:39

MiG-21: The Invincible Multi-Role Aircraft


Austin
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Re: Mig-21 Showdown begins in 2014

Postby Austin » 04 May 2018 22:40

Night Sortie In MIG - 21, ''The Vintage Aircraft"


Haridas
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Re: Mig-21 Showdown begins in 2014

Postby Haridas » 06 May 2018 07:50

Austin wrote:Night Sortie In MIG - 21, ''The Vintage Aircraft"


Feels very close to my heart. At one of the airbase our double story apartment had the best view of runway approach, as well as the bombing range about 15 km away. We used to get the treat of watching the thunderous takeoff of Mig21, at night the bluish-white AB flame was almost as long as the fuselage. Canberra and Vampire flew in style as well as the mejestic Super-constallation. Enjoyed the balcony seat for 3 years. It was the period when Mig21 of Wing Commander Padmanabha Gautam, MVC (Bar) crashed.

https://www.honourpoint.in/profile/wg-c ... c-bar-vsm/

https://m.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a ... 844&type=3

Austin
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Re: Mig-21 Showdown begins in 2014

Postby Austin » 14 May 2018 16:17

Winco Padmanabha crashlanding of 21 due to engine issue is very unfortunate , His bio says " 1960s he was posted to Iraq, as an instructor. He flew MiG-15s, and MiG-17s while in Iraq, and once force-landed a MiG-17"

So he must be rare Indian Pilot who must have flown the 15 , 17 to 21 from Subsonic to Supersonic age , RIP Sir

Austin
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Re: Mig-21 Showdown begins in 2014

Postby Austin » 14 May 2018 16:20

CAS Browne was more fortunate and managed to land his Mig with failed engine

How The Mig-21 Once Saved The Life Of Former Chief Of The Indian Air Force, NAK Browne

chola
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Re: Mig-21 Showdown begins in 2014

Postby chola » 14 May 2018 20:46

Austin wrote:Winco Padmanabha crashlanding of 21 due to engine issue is very unfortunate , His bio says " 1960s he was posted to Iraq, as an instructor. He flew MiG-15s, and MiG-17s while in Iraq, and once force-landed a MiG-17"

So he must be rare Indian Pilot who must have flown the 15 , 17 to 21 from Subsonic to Supersonic age , RIP Sir



RIP.

The sad truth is we had decades of tragedy in this thing. It WAS a great fighter for its time, I won’t deny that. There is a reason why it was made in such numbers.

BUT it was able to be made in such numbers because it was an unsophisticated lawn dart.

We had access to better machines during the lifecyle of the MiG-21. I could justify continuing to to use the MiG-21 if we had taken ownership of it like the Chinis did with the J-7. I can suffer the loss of our brave crew if they were flying Indian aircraft that needed to be wrung out for the benefit of the nation’s industry.

But what we had was a dangerous obsolete machine that STILL relied on Russian parts.

We should have moved away from this plane decades ago. If not, it should have bern indigenized to form a basis for our aviation industry.

The technical base for the LCA would have been much better if we had an indigenous Mach 2 turbojet fighter already in hand.

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Re: Mig-21 Showdown begins in 2014

Postby Philip » 15 May 2018 18:09

Quality issues as in the ACM Browne incident was responsible for many crashes.But it's now almost history as the Bisons are to fly on for a few more years.


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