Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 10 Apr 2015 16:50

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/more-men-or-better-technology-government-rethinking-strategy-to-counter-china-sources-753345

ndia is said to be re-thinking a decision made two years ago to raise a mountain strike corps to guard the hilly northern borders with China. Sources said the government is now weighing whether it will make more sense to invest in better technology rather than raise an 80,000 strong force at considerable expense.

The Manmohan Singh government of the Congress had hastily cleared the raising of the corp after repeated transgression by Chinese troops in Ladakh in 2013, one of which lasted for over a month. The Mountain Strike Corps, or the Panagarh based 17 Corps, would add on about 80,000 men at a cost of Rs. 64000 crore to be spent over eight years.

The corps headquarters have come up at Panagarh in West Bengal; a few battalions have come up as well. For the last two years, no separate funds have been allocated to the Indian Army to raise the corps and neither has border infrastructure been built to house troops. The Indian Army has been forced use war reserves to raise and equip the corps.

Sources told NDTV that plans to reposition troops in the northern command were put on hold temporarily because the existing infrastructure was found to be "incapable of absorbing more troops."

"Are we preparing for wars of the past or wars of future? Wars of the future will depend on disruptive technologies. The emphasis should be modern means of combat and not bayonet to bayonet or muzzle to muzzle war," Major General (retd) B K Sharma, who heads Centre for Strategic Studies at the United Services Institute told NDTV.

The Chief of Integrated Defence Staff and the National Security Council Secretariat have asked the government whether it wants a huge army or then a small but smart army with a focus on technology and non-contact fighting capabilities.

Besides, questions have also been raised about the huge cost by way of salaries and pensions, for the Indian Army. Already, manpower accounts for nearly 90 per cent of the Army's budget.

"Going by the average budget allocations, there may come a time when the Army finds itself unable to set aside money for capital expenditure, therefore, force accretion should be thought through," a top Defence Ministry official told NDTV.

srin · Post by **srin** » 10 Apr 2015 18:18

That has been taken care of ... http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 407_1.html

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 10 Apr 2015 20:55

Dilbu wrote:My only question is why the red colour? Why cant it be grey or something which makes it difficult to spot. Or is it for the recovery team to spot it easily?

This is always with Indian stuff. Missile in sky blue and yellow. PSLV, GSLV support structure same drama. Teja in weird colour with liberty shoes (good old times) type decoration. will post some pics that are simply ridicule.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 10 Apr 2015 21:38

vaibhav.n wrote:http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/more-men-or-better-technology-government-rethinking-strategy-to-counter-china-sources-753345

this is welcome news. even if they dont rollback completely, a more judicious spread of resources is needed.

corresponds with some of our earlier discussions in this thread.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 10 Apr 2015 21:41

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 10 Apr 2015 23:38

Rahul M wrote:this is welcome news. even if they dont rollback completely, a more judicious spread of resources is needed.

corresponds with some of our earlier discussions in this thread.

Ohh completely agree!!

They need to rationalize formations/numbers to threats and prioritize accordingly for both PLA/PA.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 13 Apr 2015 02:42

Lt. Gen. Hanut Singh, a 1971 war hero, passes away
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/l ... 095506.ece
STAFF REPORTER
Lt. Gen. Hanut Singh (Retd), a hero of the 1971 Indo-Pak war, died while in meditation, in Dehradun.

He who was known to be a spiritual person, and lived in an ashram. He went into meditation two days back, and passed away while he was meditating.

He commanded the 17 Horse, or the Poona Horse regiment in the 1971 Indo-Pak war. He was honoured with the Param Vishisht Seva Medal (PVSM) and the Maha Vir Chakra (MVC). He retired from the Army in 1991.

Former Uttarakhand Chief Minister and Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) MP from Pauri seat Maj. Gen. (Retd) B.C. Khanduri who knew him even before the 1971 war, said, “He [Singh] was a very religious man and a great General. He never married. His life and leadership has always been a source of inspiration.”

Lt. Gen. Singh, who was a cousin of former union minister Jaswant Singh, was born in the year 1933 in Jasol in Rajasthan’s Barmer district.

He last rites will be conducted at Haridwar, on April 13, 2015.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Apr 2015 08:20

What a man!!! Truly inspirational.

A true Bhisma reincarnated.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 13 Apr 2015 09:14

ramana wrote:What a man!!! Truly inspirational.

A true Bhisma reincarnated.

Legend has it that the reason he was refused further promotion because he did not take Indira Gandhi's telephone call. He was in his meditation and on being told IG had called, he did not immediately take the call. He continued with his meditation and called her after couple of hours.

He did not marry because he was of the opinion that marriage would interfere with his duties as a warrior.

His most outstanding quality was the concern for welfare of his troops. Came to known as 'General sahab, jo apni troops ka bahut khyaal rakhte hain' (General Sir who takes very good care of his troops).

The following write-up about him by Lt. General Surrinder Singh, who joined the Poona Horse in January 1958, captures his personality:

"Amongst this lot, the officer who was to have the most profound influence was Hanut Singh, who had joined the Regiment in January 1953. A tall, lean and ascetic figure, uncompromising in his beliefs and convictions yet gentle and considerate to his juniors and subordinates, possessed with an exuberant sense of humour and a pungent, ready wit, he was an extremely dedicated and devoted professional. His forte was instruction, delivered in a modulated and compelling tone which carried conviction and understanding. A man of sterling character combined with a forceful personality, he had no time for fools - a fact which was soon apparent to those in this category."

A lot is spoken about Hanut's religious beliefs. Religion and the military profession appear to be a contradiction in terms, but Hanut did not see it that way. Religion had always formed an integral part of Rajput culture and ethos. Hanut believed that religion gave the inner strength to a soldier, to rise above the mundane and achieve self actualisation, when the mission became supreme, rather than the individual. In fact, Hanut found religion a great motivating factor. He did not practice religion in the traditional manner of rituals and fasts but as an intellectual, who explored and found a new dimension to it. His wide reading enabled him to grasp the true meaning of religion, and he abided by the tenet of the Bhagwad Gita, which equates Dharma, or religion, with Karma, or righteous living. Hanut realised that for a soldier, the two are synonymous, and this became the basic philosophy of his life.

A very good source about his life:

http://veekay-militaryhistory.blogspot. ... singh.html

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 13 Apr 2015 09:25

As ramana said, bhishma reincarnated, but on the side of the pandava's this time around.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 14 Apr 2015 08:05

Here is the full interview, must see. MP has good grasp of things, including DRDO, Make in India, Private sector participation, OROP, CDS, MSC etc.

navneeet · Post by **navneeet** » 14 Apr 2015 08:32

Around 26 mins, talks about paring of the proposed MSC, and the haste in which the decision was taken by the previous govt.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Apr 2015 04:00

There is an awesome tribute to Lt Gen Hanut Singh tweeted by Prem Kumar.

Please try to post it here.

http://veekay-militaryhistory.blogspot. ... singh.html

It dispels and reinforces many myths about Indian Army.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 15 Apr 2015 05:16

I only wonder what could have been had Lt Gen Hanut Singh been made the Chief of Army Staff for 3 years from 1988-1991.

What would have been the impact on IPKF?
Initial handling of Islamic terror in Kashmir.
Stand off with TSPA on the border in 1990.
General IA doctrine..

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 15 Apr 2015 06:31

kashi... the PM and the politicians control the policies etc..COAS makes marginal difference IMO

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 15 Apr 2015 07:37

manjgu wrote:kashi... the PM and the politicians control the policies etc..COAS makes marginal difference IMO

Not politics, but operational readiness, combat effectiveness, military intelligence and counter intelligence etc. I believe these would be well within the domain of the COAS. Do recall that TSD was Gen VK Singh's baby.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Apr 2015 08:48

Kashi, Read the above bio I linked.

It was IA and India that lost due to petty incorrect decisions.

they couldn't get Gen. Sundarji so they got his commander.

member_28539 · Post by **member_28539** » 15 Apr 2015 09:53

The very memory of Lt. Gen. Hanut Singh gives me shivers & pride till date...though i din't know about the man that he was at that point! Alas!
He was present at our School Investiture Ceremony at Mayo, Ajmer, came in walking tall & sat straight like a iron rod, his speech was short, to point. I got to know about Lt. Khetrapal's story and his role from one of the seniors...I asked him what did you say/do that he fought so bravely and all he said was that he took a small line i told a tid bit to heart and went on to say the same lines to me "Talwar se bijli kadke..laal lahoo bahe dharti...ye var dena prabhu mohe...vijay ho ya veergati"...

Those penetrating eyes & awe-striking moustaches i saw when he pinned a badge on my chest will be memory cherished forever...

srai · Post by **srai** » 15 Apr 2015 10:44

vaibhav.n wrote:
Rahul M wrote:{quote="vaibhav.n"}http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/more-men-or-better-technology-government-rethinking-strategy-to-counter-china-sources-753345
{/quote}
this is welcome news. even if they dont rollback completely, a more judicious spread of resources is needed.

corresponds with some of our earlier discussions in this thread.
Ohh completely agree!!

They need to rationalize formations/numbers to threats and prioritize accordingly for both PLA/PA.

The IA needs billions of dollars just to upgrade its existing formations and arms. I didn't quite understand how the IA was planning to add 80,000 more soldiers to its payroll when the defense budget was not increasing. It seems the IA and IAF are out of touch with country's finances in relation to costs associated with its acquisition wishlist and whether those are sustainable or not. Some sense finally prevailing.

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 15 Apr 2015 11:50

I don't think you can really fault the services when the MMRCA and MSC both were okayed at the highest levels of CCS. How basic math escaped the Nehru regime of the day is what is shocking.

There were umteen 'statements' from the top UPA echelons that funds would be made available but when it came to exercising it things came to a naught....

IMVVHO.....We have fallen into the trap of planning everything from a purely conventional sense. A two front scenario will result in a faster nuclear escalatory ladder and force structures need to be planned as such to bring the pain to the enemy's doorstep.

While there has been some amount of convergence in both PLA/PA in the past whether either of the country's would actually declare war for the others interest remains to be seen China's intrest in Pakistan notwithstanding.

The likely scenario for us is the possibility of Pakistan opening the jehadi flood gates once again incase of a future Chinese aggression without committing their own army.

One of the reasons it becomes prudent to keep the Pak Army tied down in FATA/NWFP CI Ops....

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 15 Apr 2015 11:59

ramana wrote:Kashi, Read the above bio I linked.

It was IA and India that lost due to petty incorrect decisions.

they couldn't get Gen. Sundarji so they got his commander.

Thanks very much for that link Ramana ji. It was after reading the bio that I wistfully thought- What if Lt Gen Hanut Singh was allowed to become the COAS, how much better would have things have turned out for IA and India.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 17 Apr 2015 23:24

IDSA researcher selling Arunachal border troop deployment secrets for few $$ ...

https://wikileaks.org/gifiles/docs/39/3 ... rder-.html

From: namrata goswami <namygoswami@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 4:40 AM
Subject: Visit to India-China border
To: Peter Garretson

Dear Peter,

As part of my project on "International Security Audit: Great/Major
Power Cooperation or Competition in Asia" at the Institute for Defence
Studies and Analyses, New Delhi, which included a specific focus on the
Chinese territorial claim on the Indian state of Arunachal Pradesh and
the border dispute there, I undertook an intensive month long field
study in the claimed state as well as the India-China border areas last
month (March 2011).

I specifically focused on the state of infrastructure and military
preparedness on both sides of the India-China border; local perceptions
of the Chinese claim, the issue of Tibet and the implications of my
research findings for major power relations in Asia (read India and
China)...

I was wondering if there are possibilities of making a presentation in
Washington DC based on my findings from the field trip on "Major Power
Relations in Asia: A Case Study of India-China"; also, if there is the
possibility of a short term project on this very critical issue in a
reputed think tank in Washington DC.

I will appreciate your advice.

best
Namrata

--

Namrata Goswami
MDJC-SIJC, M'Phil-Ph.D.
Research Fellow
Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses
Development Enclave-1
Delhi Cantonment (Near USI)
New Delhi---110010
India
cell--09811440306,
email-- <mailto:email--ngoswami@idsa.in> ngoswami@idsa.in
<mailto:ngoswami@idsa.in> ,namygoswami@gmail.com
website- <http://website--www.idsa.in/>
--http://www.idsa.in/profile/ngoswami

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 17 Apr 2015 23:37

She is still in IDSA and looks like she sold it to USIP...

http://www.idsa.in/profile/ngoswami

Dr. Goswami was a Senior Fellow at the United States Institute of Peace (USIP), Washington. D.C from October 2012 to June 2013; Visiting Fellow at the South Asia Institute, University of Heidelberg (November–December 2010); the International Peace Research Institute, Oslo (PRIO), August 2006 to July 2010; and a Visiting Fellow at the Centre for Dialogue, La Trobe University, Melbourne from April to August 2009. She is a recipient of the Fulbright-Nehru Senior Research Fellowship, 2012-2013.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 17 Apr 2015 23:50

I missed this, look at who she sent the info first to, straight to USAF/pentagon...

https://wikileaks.org/gifiles/docs/39/3 ... rder-.html

From: "Garretson, Peter A Lt Col MIL USAF HAF/CK"
<PeterA.Garretson@pentagon.af.mil>
Date: April 5, 2011 6:04:27 PM CDT
To: Reva Bhalla <reva.bhalla@stratfor.com>
Subject: Visit to India-China border
Something for you to stick in your quiver. Not too many people get to
make such site visits and interviews.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 18 Apr 2015 12:21

x-post

IDSA researchers don't have access to classified material in the normal course of things. and even if one did, he/she will most definitely not use email to communicate it. from the disclosures so far, at most she is guilty of badly wanting to bag a trip to the US.

please put an end to this kite flying.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Apr 2015 13:57

rahul, unless this was approved by GOI (no reference to that in the stuff above) dont see how this is kite flying. its clearly a pretty big security breach.

but this badly wanting to bag a trip to US and making presentations on Indian stuff is definitely not kosher. did she inform the places she visited and people she talked to, that she would be presenting on them?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Apr 2015 16:32

a lot of stuff is told off the record to senior folks from the IDSA etc in India. they carry a lot of weight in indian decision making circles. if she went with that tag, chances are she was given a lot of inside info.. stuff like "we are ok in this sector, but generally we are lacking...".. even without specifics that sort of stuff is an intel gold mine. and she was hawking it openly abroad?
unbelievable. pretty much everything seems to have been up for grabs in the past decade. only if this was GOI approved does this seem to be in anyway ok. but no clear indications there either. this needs to be flagged for sure. wonder how many other "think tanks" staffed with people with contacts are running these kinds of studies and what not.

rajrang · Post by **rajrang** » 18 Apr 2015 17:23

Rahul M wrote:
vaibhav.n wrote:http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/more-men-or-better-technology-government-rethinking-strategy-to-counter-china-sources-753345
this is welcome news. even if they dont rollback completely, a more judicious spread of resources is needed.

corresponds with some of our earlier discussions in this thread.

This is shocking. So, to add to this line of thought - the current Indian defense budget is about 240,000 crores. Assuming the proposed 64,000 crores on the strike core is spent over 8 years, (in India you can never tell how long this will actually take), this will be approximately 8,000 crores per year. This will translate into a 3% increase in India's defense budget. So, the defense budget which is probably 2% of India's GNP will become 2.06%. Remember this is only a one time expenditure, the recurring future annual expenditure will be a fraction of this amount. All this to counter the second most militarily (and economically) powerful country in the world, that is filled with hubris, and claims 80,000 square km of Indian territory in AP after having swallowed 30,000 square km of Indian territory in Ladakh. The same country invaded India to "teach India a lesson" and to grab vast amounts of territory, has armed our western neighbor with nuclear weapons and means to deliver them (on India), string of pearls, and the list goes on. Further, in an emergency these forces can be shifted to Kashmir - both railways and expressways will allow this to happen expeditiously. With all respects, in my view, this expenditure is trivial, given that the vast majority of India's borders with China and Pakistan are mountainous.

This same country has a track record of trying to grab vast amounts of territory from many of its neighbors. So, China's claims in AP is not merely due to a misunderstanding due to history. It is deliberate national policy bent on expansionism, similar in intent to the axis powers of WWII, though the means adopted may be relatively less open and aggressive. Unlike the axis powers, which some could argue as an aberration in human history, China's policies have been nurtured by generations of leaders going back to 1949. After all there are always enough historical reasons for nearly EVERY nation in the world to demand territory from its neighbors. As a quick example, Mexico can demand territory from the US. The border transgressions in AP and S China Sea are partly meant to clearly communicate these policies, just in case India and other nations rationalize that these claims are only a "political bark" without a "bite."

On balance, one can always argue on what would be the best use of the money. One should avoid excessive analysis - or will end up with "analysis paralysis." If this is what the army wants, simply give it to them.

From a cynical standpoint, possible motives for the sudden development include: (a) softening of India's military posture vis-à-vis China due to the impending visit of PM Modi to China in anticipation of some reciprocation on the part of China, (b) lobbies that prefer the money be spent on weapons rather than salaries, (c) President Obama's visit to India's republic day and other western powers courting India, has temporarily got the Chinese to back off the political pressure they exert on India and has emboldened India's politicians to become more complacent or (d) just simply accounting perspectives gaining ascendency over other considerations.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Apr 2015 18:19

just as harvard and yale are used to accomodate the sons and daughters of third world elites, looks like the network of think tanks around D.C. are used to accomodate officials and such from various countries to reward them, rehabilitate them, pump them for all info under cover of research...hell even moles and spies could be run in this way...one layer for official work, one layer for andaar ki baat.

A high level audit is needed of IDSA or anyone else who has access

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 18 Apr 2015 20:34

This is shocking. So, to add to this line of thought - the current Indian defense budget is about 240,000 crores. Assuming the proposed 64,000 crores on the strike core is spent over 8 years, (in India you can never tell how long this will actually take), this will be approximately 8,000 crores per year. This will translate into a 3% increase in India's defense budget. So, the defense budget which is probably 2% of India's GNP will become 2.06%. Remember this is only a one time expenditure, the recurring future annual expenditure will be a fraction of this amount[/quote]
I think you are grossly over-estimating what we can actually afford. Rs 8,000 Cr/year in capital spending is an absolute HUGE amount for the Army. The entire actual capital spending for last year was only around 16,900 Cr (source). So you are talking about a 50% increase just to fund this expansion.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 19 Apr 2015 08:59

x-post

Some visuals of the Dhruv @Siachen, Op Baba temple, details about the facilities base camp, etc. If Vishnu-ji still lurks, please take a bow. A good report.

NDTV at Siachen: How India is Consolidating its Hold on World's Highest Battlefield - Vishnu Som, NDTV

An interview with the commander of Siachen base camp:
Defending the Siachen Heights - Vishnu Som, NDTV

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 19 Apr 2015 09:09

Singha wrote:just as harvard and yale are used to accomodate the sons and daughters of third world elites, looks like the network of think tanks around D.C. are used to accomodate officials and such from various countries to reward them, rehabilitate them, pump them for all info under cover of research...hell even moles and spies could be run in this way...one layer for official work, one layer for andaar ki baat.

A high level audit is needed of IDSA or anyone else who has access

It's wrong to simply assume that this lady does not have access to classified material. why would anyone at IDSA restrict access to one of it's own members?? She would have full access to all IDSA stuff without restriction. She would simply not be able to function effectively otherwise.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Apr 2015 10:03

the extent of penetration by the US dangling the carrot of US trips & stints(for the small fry) and GC(for the full timers like rabinder singh) is frightening

true soft power at work.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 19 Apr 2015 10:44

For those commenting effortlessly on this alleged spying, take a look at the Intelligence thread. She checks out (for now)

(lot of time, there is pressure from khan via international agencies, when India upgrades facilities against pak or cheen. It is vitally important to publicize Indian lacunae wrt cheen, cry shrilly in the beltway and make sure the next Indian budget allocs has grudging support. FWIW, we still has got pressure points of "guns vs butter", when it comes to multi-lateral agencies)

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 19 Apr 2015 11:36

There should be no presumption that the flow of information is only a one-way thing. The automatic assumption if someone applies to secure a position in a US think tank need not be that she is a traitor. Nor should there be a natural predisposition that our own agencies are so incompetent that they do not know about any of this.

Unlike, of course, us heroes at BRF.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Apr 2015 15:01

Much of the stuff she has written about is available online. Could have been an IDSA sponsored outreach.
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1 ... 011.591248

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 19 Apr 2015 18:18

@rajrang, you have gone off on a tangent. please check discussion on this in last 2-3 pages.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 19 Apr 2015 22:39

8 LESSER-KNOWN INDIAN SPECIAL FORCES THAT ARE AMONG THE BEST IN THE WORLD

http://www.mensxp.com/special-features/ ... world.html

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 20 Apr 2015 05:31

BTW, yesterday happened to meet a rather interesting ex-serviceman. Retired colonel, who's "fought in every war since 1971" (Sri Lanka, Kargil, various insurgencies), sustained 16 injuries (bullets, fractures etc). Jat regimenter during Kargil, and.... was Saurabh Kalia's CO at one time. Seemed to have vaguely heard of BRF too.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Apr 2015 18:05

^^ Wow!

On another note, here is a rollicking read.
http://www.quora.com/What-is-your-respo ... resstitute