Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 05 Jun 2015 09:06

TOI reporting that GoI has taken a very serious view of the situation. Speculation is that IA Paras might be deployed.

ticky · Post by **ticky** » 05 Jun 2015 11:31

Large troop movement towards Chandel district, Manipur. 3-4 choppers in the air.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 05 Jun 2015 11:37

Wait for the prestitutes to start crying "overreaction".

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Jun 2015 12:40

Looks like Nag and Javelin are back in the game.
Carter has a deal to win, question is whether he can pull it off.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/ ... 850156.ece
Defence Deal With Israel Hits a Roadblock

By Pradip R Sagar

Published: 05th June 2015 06:00 AM

NEW DELHI: The BJP-led NDA Government may have announced Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s plans to visit Israel, making him the country’s first ever Prime Minister to do so, but a defence procurement deal worth more than Rs 3,000 crore with that country for anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs) for the Army has hit a roadblock.

The Army has been trying hard to equip all its 382 Infantry Battalions and 44 Mechanised Infantry units with these ATGMs, as it was hamstrung with more than 50 per cent shortage in that front.

In October, the Centre had approved the purchase of ‘Spike’, the third generation Israeli ATGMs, for the Army after extensive technical trials evaluated by the force. Following this, a Rs 3,200 crore deal was signed to procure 8,356 ATGMs from Rafal, an Israeli firm. The Spike missile was selected over the US’s Javeline missile system.

But sources in the Ministry of Defence(MoD) said seven months on, the Cost Negotiation Committee, which was formed to work out the modalities for the procurement deal, failed to make any headway.

Officials from the MoD and the Army have raised several objections to the commercial bids submitted by the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) in the second week of May.

They claimed that the price quoted in the commercial bid was almost double that of the benchmark price. And moreover, the Israeli firm even asked for an additional amount on each missile to be produced in India, which would be above the cost of the transfer of technology.

“Besides, the OEM has asked for an yearly escalation of four per cent on all the supplies, including raw material to be sold to the Bharat Dynamic Limited (BDL). In fact, after the transfer of technology to the BDL, the company has refused to take responsibility for any quality issues,” said an officer, who is privy to the developments. So, perturbed with the Israeli firm’s attitude, the MoD has red-flagged its commercial bids. “We have discontinued the negotiations with the firm and asked it to reconcile and revert. It is an important project for the Army, which is in dire need of anti-tank missiles. At the same time, we cannot compromise on the terms and conditions,” the officer added.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Jun 2015 12:45

The 4-5 % yearly hike is normal taking into account inflation

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Jun 2015 13:08

Not just the 4-5%

They claimed that the price quoted in the commercial bid was almost double that of the benchmark price. And moreover, the Israeli firm even asked for an additional amount on each missile to be produced in India, which would be above the cost of the transfer of technology.

“Besides, the OEM has asked for an yearly escalation of four per cent on all the supplies, including raw material to be sold to the Bharat Dynamic Limited (BDL). In fact, after the transfer of technology to the BDL, the company has refused to take responsibility for any quality issues,

kancha · Post by **kancha** » 05 Jun 2015 13:57

X Posted from Strategic Affairs forum

kancha wrote:Here's a perspective - crisp and to the point

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Jun 2015 20:48

NSFW
Pictures from the Manipur attack. The images are not for the faint of heart. You have been warned.

http://chinditsdefence.blogspot.ca/2015 ... y.html?m=1

Hunt these pigs down and give them the same treatment.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 06 Jun 2015 21:14

Karan M wrote:Not just the 4-5%

They claimed that the price quoted in the commercial bid was almost double that of the benchmark price. And moreover, the Israeli firm even asked for an additional amount on each missile to be produced in India, which would be above the cost of the transfer of technology.

“Besides, the OEM has asked for an yearly escalation of four per cent on all the supplies, including raw material to be sold to the Bharat Dynamic Limited (BDL). In fact, after the transfer of technology to the BDL, the company has refused to take responsibility for any quality issues,

just asking onlee

If the GOI has mandated the JV partner and left the OEM no choice in the matter and TOT has been done per agreed terms, people have been trained at BDL and BDL now produces it, how is the OEM responsible any further.?? It can be called upon to help out but certainly not to take total responsibility for final product quality as it is not involved in the manufacture. Responsibility for quality comes with all the usually attendant and extremely expensive liability issues.

I know how IAF rapes companies on quality issues, as well they should.

If there is any lacunae in the TOT, raw material supply or training imparted per contract, then the OEM is answerable. Why on earth should should rafale (for the HAL manufacture) or even the israeli firm (for the BDL manufacture) be held accountable for quality issues that are notoriously well known problems with HAL or even BDL for that matter??

I think that negotiating skills of HAL/BDL are sorely lacking, pushed as they are from the background by the IA and the IAF. These terms are not enforceable anywhere in such complicated contracts.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 06 Jun 2015 21:23

Rakesh wrote:Pictures from the Manipur attack. The images are not for the faint of heart. You have been warned.

http://chinditsdefence.blogspot.ca/2015 ... y.html?m=1

Hunt these pigs down and give them the same treatment.

Yep. Looks like some of them were burned alive. No doubt they will be hunted. We need a long term comprehensive solution to ensure that these attacks never happen again. It will have to be centered around reconstructing their identities.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 07 Jun 2015 04:19

Rakesh wrote:Pictures from the Manipur attack. The images are not for the faint of heart. You have been warned.

http://chinditsdefence.blogspot.ca/2015 ... y.html?m=1

Hunt these pigs down and give them the same treatment.

Is the first picture of serving military personal? Who the hell authorized release of these photos to media in their current state?

Think of family members who have to view these before any official notification from Army.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Jun 2015 04:47

Sid this not a ordinary RPG round which has shrapnel. Looks like a thermo-baric or some sort of flame round that burns the victims.

Sorry for the soldiers who died.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Jun 2015 07:08

India should not mull "Armata" sidelining Arjun.. gotta be very careful in planning our programs. It is okay to buy them to learn, but never okay to throw away Arjun, and not develop on it. Again, the same tranche mode agreement is required from IA, and that they must buy at least 400 tanks per spec/GSQR request. Make In India can be best utilized by IA too.. and nothing but the best fit in, that is Arjun.

Let Arjun become Armata or better that.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 07 Jun 2015 07:34

shameful of the the Motorhama to post those pictures

acckthoo

and seriously wtf was the army thinking in allowing this

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 07 Jun 2015 08:34

I don't understand why our Army uses unarmored 4x4 Tatras for personnel transport, they give no protection and are sitting ducks if immobilized and fuel tank explodes, which seems to have happened in this case. Same incident happened in J&K.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Jun 2015 08:45

ravip wrote:I don't understand why our Army uses unarmored 4x4 Tatras for personnel transport, they give no protection and are sitting ducks if immobilized and fuel tank explodes, which seems to have happened in this case. Same incident happened in J&K.

I think the army uses standard trucks for all transport unless there is information that the area is particularly high risk. In this case the attack was a spectacular success because obviously there were no intel inputs.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Jun 2015 08:48

Seeing our dead helps to strengthen our resolve to see our enemies dead. We live in a land where we are being sensitized to react with horror when we see dead terrorists while we are shielded from our own dead. Naturally our nation is full of pinkos who think our armed forces are simply killing innocents in encounters.

member_28609 · Post by **member_28609** » 07 Jun 2015 09:58

shiv wrote:Seeing our dead helps to strengthen our resolve to see our enemies dead. We live in a land where we are being sensitized to react with horror when we see dead terrorists while we are shielded from our own dead. Naturally our nation is full of pinkos who think our armed forces are simply killing innocents in encounters.

This is very true. With due respect to martyrs and their families, the images will show the whole world, especially the so-called secular and other human rights sympathizers what are we up against. The perpetrators should be hunt and killed.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Jun 2015 10:04

shiv wrote: In this case the attack was a spectacular success because obviously there were no intel inputs.

http://idrw.org/indian-intelligence-on- ... more-65994

The massacre is a grim reminder of the decrepit state of the Indian Army’s Intelligence capability, which has been left in a shambles after a decade of demoralisation and factional feuds during the UPA years. The reasons are many: technological failure, the pathetic state of HUMINT (human intelligence) on the ground, a dejected Military Intelligence (MI) setup, which is stuck in the promotion ladder—no MI operative has ever become Army Chief, let alone be an Army Commander. This apart, the absence of coordination among the different agencies, lack of synergy between local resources and devious politics and ego confrontations within the Army itself have contributed to massive Intelligence failures that claimed the lives of soldiers.

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 07 Jun 2015 10:25

I think the first photo is of the lone militant they killed. In the other, you can also see sandbags across the vehicle floor.

*Langar Gup Alert*

The CO was on leave when the unit was deinducting to the rear. If true, most shameful.

There were maximum guys in the first truck against all regulations most unarmed which bore the full brunt of the attack. Similar thing also happened in the valley in the transit camp vehicle attack also. These guys look out for admin convoys where they know most soldiers would be vulnerable with token presence of armed men.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Jun 2015 11:28

Vicky_avinash wrote:
shiv wrote:Seeing our dead helps to strengthen our resolve to see our enemies dead. We live in a land where we are being sensitized to react with horror when we see dead terrorists while we are shielded from our own dead. Naturally our nation is full of pinkos who think our armed forces are simply killing innocents in encounters.
This is very true. With due respect to martyrs and their families, the images will show the whole world, especially the so-called secular and other human rights sympathizers what are we up against. The perpetrators should be hunt and killed.

and the worms start crawling out of the woodwork...make allegations before anything happens same same like "A minority in India will suffer unless they get a new nation"
http://scroll.in/article/732393/the-ind ... in-manipur

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Jun 2015 12:52

I am somewhat surprised to see the paucity of discussion on the manipur attack on the army boys and the aftermath. the implications of this attack on both the NE peace process and the army's internal security commitments are significant.

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 07 Jun 2015 13:36

vaibhav.n wrote:I think the first photo is of the lone militant they killed. In the other, you can also see sandbags across the vehicle floor.

*Langar Gup Alert*

The CO was on leave when the unit was deinducting to the rear. If true, most shameful.

There were maximum guys in the first truck against all regulations most unarmed which bore the full brunt of the attack. Similar thing also happened in the valley in the transit camp vehicle attack also. These guys look out for admin convoys where they know most soldiers would be vulnerable with token presence of armed men.

J&K truck attack also happened when troops were deinducting from conflict area. Jawans were not armed as they were deinducting and heading home for leave. There was a vehicle(jeep)with armed soldiers which was escorting the convoy in the J&K incident but they couldn't repel the attack as insurgents fired RPG's into truck which was in the middle of convoy and on spot many died. The insurgents fled in the ensuing commotion. I think there is a video of the incident.

This deinduction period is turning out to be very vulnerable as many attacks have happened during the same period in J&K also. There is a 2008 story that BAT attacked the deinducting ceremony at the Battalion HQ and decapitated 2 jawans.

Need of the hour is to provide Heavy Armored Personnel Carriers and to increase Intel.

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 07 Jun 2015 13:38

Rahul M wrote:I am somewhat surprised to see the paucity of discussion on the manipur attack on the army boys and the aftermath. the implications of this attack on both the NE peace process and the army's internal security commitments are significant.

Anything showing the Govt in poor light is strict no no for media these days. Discussions only raise public outrage, they add nothing to situation on ground.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Jun 2015 13:48

ravip wrote: Anything showing the Govt in poor light is strict no no for media these days. Discussions only raise public outrage, they add nothing to situation on ground.

are we following the same media ? because all I see is a virtual crusade by the media to show the govt in a bad light in any which way.

discussions should raise public awareness and create political ground for appropriate action. if that means outrage then so be it.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 07 Jun 2015 16:23

Vaibhav

right and more

lots of mistakes.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Jun 2015 17:05

Rahul, is it clear who conducted the attack yet? ULFA or NSCN as initial reports noted?

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 07 Jun 2015 17:17

ITANAGAR: Suspected NSCN (K) militants on Sunday fired at an Assam Rifles (AR) camp in remote Lazu area in Tirap district of Arunachal Pradesh, three days after the group ambushed an army convoy killing 18 soldiers.

A group of 35 NSCN (Khaplang) rebels attacked the camp in the Indo-Myanmar border region at around 2.30am, Tirap SP Ajit Kumar Singla said.

However, there was no report of any casualty, he said. "The AR personnel, who were on alert as per prior intelligence report, retaliated which compelled the militants to flee under cover of darkness," Singla said adding, cross firing from both the sides lasted for about ten minutes.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 573022.cms

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Jun 2015 17:57

Karan M wrote:Rahul, is it clear who conducted the attack yet? ULFA or NSCN as initial reports noted?

I have not seen any reliable report linking ulfa to this.

this is the most plausible one IMHO.
http://www.ndtv.com/opinion/the-implica ... ded-768890

Thursday's attack was reportedly carried out by a combined team of cadres drawn from Manipur-based outfits like KYKL (Kanglei Yawol Kanna Lup), the KCP (Kangleipak Communist Party) and the Khaplang group of National Socialist Council of Nagaland (NSCN-K).

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Jun 2015 18:11

Hope the IA is given a free hand in hunting these scum down and inflicting solid retaliation.

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 07 Jun 2015 19:39

ravip wrote:I don't understand why our Army uses unarmored 4x4 Tatras for personnel transport, they give no protection and are sitting ducks if immobilized and fuel tank explodes, which seems to have happened in this case. Same incident happened in J&K.

The trucks are 4x4 TATA LTPA 713 and not Tatra

what we see is an aftermath of IED + Multiple RPG's strike.

The cause of immobilization is IED and not fuel tank explosion. With multiple RPG's in few min time vehicle would have caught fire irrespective of fuel tank.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 07 Jun 2015 19:48

Need of the hour is to provide Heavy Armored Personnel Carriers and to increase Intel.

RPGs can cut through APCs too - you then will put up grills etc

need of the hour is for COs to be ever alert and make sure SOPs are followed no matter what.

better to be paranoid then pay the price

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Jun 2015 20:13

has the rpg and weapons used ID'ed ? some reports spoke of US made weapons ?

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 07 Jun 2015 20:26

http://s13.postimg.org/lzqde8vvb/seized ... th_the.png
http://s13.postimg.org/5d8t562xj/seized ... nition.png
http://s27.postimg.org/vc23sw3ib/sdf.jpg
http://s27.postimg.org/en0nwz6wz/recove ... _ammos.jpg

US is flooding northeast, well could have been US origin UBGL

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 07 Jun 2015 21:00

d_berwal wrote:
ravip wrote:I don't understand why our Army uses unarmored 4x4 Tatras for personnel transport, they give no protection and are sitting ducks if immobilized and fuel tank explodes, which seems to have happened in this case. Same incident happened in J&K.

The trucks are 4x4 TATA LTPA 713 and not Tatra

what we see is an aftermath of IED + Multiple RPG's strike.

The cause of immobilization is IED and not fuel tank explosion. With multiple RPG's in few min time vehicle would have caught fire irrespective of fuel tank.

As per reports there were no IED's involved.

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 07 Jun 2015 21:03

Surya wrote:
Need of the hour is to provide Heavy Armored Personnel Carriers and to increase Intel.
RPGs can cut through APCs too - you then will put up grills etc

need of the hour is for COs to be ever alert and make sure SOPs are followed no matter what.

better to be paranoid then pay the price

I agree SOP's were ignored but APC give time for reaction, they can withstand initial hits unlike open trucks where bullets fly every where.

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 07 Jun 2015 21:34

ravip wrote:
d_berwal wrote:The trucks are 4x4 TATA LTPA 713 and not Tatra

what we see is an aftermath of IED + Multiple RPG's strike.

The cause of immobilization is IED and not fuel tank explosion. With multiple RPG's in few min time vehicle would have caught fire irrespective of fuel tank.
As per reports there were no IED's involved.

I dont know which media or report you are talking about?

http://www.ibtimes.co.in/manipur-10-arm ... nts-634678
http://zeenews.india.com/news/north-eas ... 07404.html
http://in.reuters.com/article/2015/06/0 ... ZX20150604
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/05/world ... .html?_r=0

which report are you referring to as you have very strong argument and no self analysis !!!
If you have observation skills 1st pic clearly shows IED effect underneath 1st vehicle.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 07 Jun 2015 22:10

As per a tweet by Lt. General Hasnain, there were 32 people in lead vehicle as against the SOP of having only 10-12 people/vehicle in CI Ops area. This led to such high casualty level.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 08 Jun 2015 20:24

2 militants killed in Manipur, ADGPI tweeted.

btw Shiv, I don't agree with your logic on pictures of "mutilated bodies" of serving soldier being distributed in media. Specially for propaganda purpose, does not matter which side uses it.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 09 Jun 2015 01:36

RIP soldiers!!

by d_berwal
US is flooding northeast, well could have been US origin UBGL

Simple Geography question!

Who is closer USA or the PLA to manipur!