Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby member_22539 » 31 Oct 2015 06:24

At this point I am not even disputing the punishments given to the soldiers for mutiny, frankly I think they are fair, except in the case of the sahayak. He is also charged with mutiny. How does a guy who is beaten up so bad that he is bedridden, take part in a mutiny? Also, somebody said that it was superficial injuries and he was discharged the same day, I would like to see a link to prove this (then I will shut up about that).

Having said that. I am pissed about the slaps on the wrists given to the officers. Loss of service years? Are you fukin kidding me? For brutally assaulting a man, torturing him and then preventing him from going to hospital, and on top of all of that causing the largest mutiny in the IA since independence, they get LOSS OF SERVICE?

In which universe is this commensurate with their crimes?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Thakur_B » 31 Oct 2015 06:30

^^ Ageed. It's disgraceful.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby rohitvats » 31 Oct 2015 10:01

Arun Menon wrote:At this point I am not even disputing the punishments given to the soldiers for mutiny, frankly I think they are fair, except in the case of the sahayak. He is also charged with mutiny. How does a guy who is beaten up so bad that he is bedridden, take part in a mutiny? Also, somebody said that it was superficial injuries and he was discharged the same day, I would like to see a link to prove this (then I will shut up about that).


That the Sahayak has been charged with Mutiny is a lie spread by the counsel of the accused. The Army has clarified in the link that I have posted, and which you have obviously not read, that the Sahayak was punished for violating the modesty of the lady.

As for evidence of his superficial injuries, it has also been clarified in the same report. He and the CO were admitted to the hospital and he was discharged the same day. The testimony of the Doctor would have been part of the summary of evidence and court martial proceedings.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby member_22539 » 31 Oct 2015 10:09

^In that case I agree to the punishments meted out to the sahayak and the soldiers, but what about the punishment given to the officers? Do you agree with the punishment? Should it have been more harsh?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby srin » 31 Oct 2015 11:20

rohitvats wrote:
Arun Menon wrote:At this point I am not even disputing the punishments given to the soldiers for mutiny, frankly I think they are fair, except in the case of the sahayak. He is also charged with mutiny. How does a guy who is beaten up so bad that he is bedridden, take part in a mutiny? Also, somebody said that it was superficial injuries and he was discharged the same day, I would like to see a link to prove this (then I will shut up about that).


That the Sahayak has been charged with Mutiny is a lie spread by the counsel of the accused. The Army has clarified in the link that I have posted, and which you have obviously not read, that the Sahayak was punished for violating the modesty of the lady.

As for evidence of his superficial injuries, it has also been clarified in the same report. He and the CO were admitted to the hospital and he was discharged the same day. The testimony of the Doctor would have been part of the summary of evidence and court martial proceedings.


From what I've read and I'll be happy to see any links which disputes this, it is the Sahayak's word against the Lady's. In such a case, how would the court martial reach a conclusion ?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby member_22539 » 31 Oct 2015 11:25

srin wrote:From what I've read and I'll be happy to see any links which disputes this, it is the Sahayak's word against the Lady's. In such a case, how would the court martial reach a conclusion ?


Are you kidding me? Women never lie!!! There is no need for an inquiry even. Besides the shayak is a well-known playboy, thats why his fellow soldiers were so respectful of him.

Just joking, maybe

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby rohitvats » 31 Oct 2015 11:28

Arun Menon wrote:^In that case I agree to the punishments meted out to the sahayak and the soldiers, but what about the punishment given to the officers? Do you agree with the punishment? Should it have been more harsh?


Harsh? They should have been chucked out of the Army with dishonorable discharge.

Because of their mishandling of the situation, things reached such level. Their conduct was unbecoming of an officer and betrayed the creed of being an officer. Its was against the Chetwode Motto.

Officers and men give their lives to uphold the honor of their paltan and regiment...the act of these idiots will most likely lead to disbandment of 226 Regiment. If by chance, the regiment remains within the Army, the stigma of the incident will forever remain with the unit. And which means that any young officer will try his best not to get commissioned into the regiment. And in whichever formation the unit serves, it will be marked out as the trouble maker to be always kept under watch.

The institutional memory in the Army is elephantine and such major instances are not forgotten. The unit and men associated with it will always be stigmatized. For now and forever. 4th Mountain Division was marched on foot from NEFA to Allahabad as mark of punishment for folding up during 1962 war. It was the supreme defense put up by this formation in Asal Uttar which redeemed its honor. But till now, soldiers know 4th Division (now a RAPID) as 'Punishment Division'.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby member_22539 » 31 Oct 2015 11:31

rohitvats wrote:Harsh? They should have been chucked out of the Army with dishonorable discharge.


Are there provisions for that, I mean laws? If so, why do you think they were left off with such lenience?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Picklu » 31 Oct 2015 11:33

Karan M wrote:
Picklu wrote:....


The basic thing is the court found the soldier to have molested the officers wife. Everything flows from there. Now either we have trust in the IA system or we don't and have it re-examined. Equal punishment is pointless. A bunch of men losing their cool and assaulting a molester? Stupid. The molester getting support and then almost killing the CO? Of a different level of gravity. All this of course dependent on whether the molestation occured and the COI says it has, so it boils down to whether the IA process was fair or not.


No Karan. If we have to go to the root cause, then officers broke rule and brought their family to an exercise where the womenfolk had no business being present. To praphrase you, everything else flows from there. Even if the Sahayak is worst kind of molester and rapist, the fault lies with the officers.

Analogy here - you drive without license and someone else hits you. It is still your fault.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby srin » 31 Oct 2015 11:53

Arun Menon wrote:
rohitvats wrote:Harsh? They should have been chucked out of the Army with dishonorable discharge.


Are there provisions for that, I mean laws? If so, why do you think they were left off with such lenience?


The Army Act
45. Unbecoming conduct. Any officer, junior commissioned officer or warrant officer who behaves in a manner unbecoming his position and the character expected of him shall, on conviction by courtmartial, if he is an officer, be liable to be cashiered or to suffer such less punishment as is in this Act mentioned; and, if he is a junior commissioned officer or a warrant officer, be liable to be dismissed or to suffer such less punishment as is in this Act mentioned.


47. Ill- treating a subordinate. Any officer, junior commissioned officer, warrant officer or noncommissioned officer who uses criminal force to or otherwise illtreats any person subject to this Act, being his subordinate in rank or position, shall, on conviction by court- martial, be liable to suffer
imprisonment for a term which may extend to seven years or such less punishment as is in this Act
mentioned.


But also lookup the max punishment for mutiny (section 37) :eek:

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby member_22906 » 31 Oct 2015 13:03

^^
That shouldn't be a surprise wrt to max punishment. It is a very good deterrent to a mutinous situation in war time

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Raja Bose » 31 Oct 2015 13:09

Mutiny is punishable by death is pretty much all armies.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby mody » 31 Oct 2015 15:29

Mutiny in the services is the most serious offense. In roman times, in case of mutiny the whole unit would be decimated. This involved clubbing to death of all the soldiers involved, in full view of other soldiers.

Without any inside info, it seems the following chain of events may have occurred:
1). Sahayak got into an uncomfortable situation with the wife.
2). Sahayak reports the matter to try and cover his ass to JCO or subedar and maybe some colleagues
3). Wife reports the matter to her husband and he informs the fellow Majors.
4). The officers beat up the Sahayak in view of some of the other Jawans
5). The officers do not allow the Sahayk to be taken for medical care. This enrages the jawans and without most of them knowing details about what had happened and why, the jawans fly into a rage and fight ensues.

From all accounts the act of not taking the Sahayak for medical care, post the beating and leaving him lying nearly unconscious, is what triggered the jawans to attack the officers.

The Army it seems is taking a heavy handed approach, to ensure that this kind of mutiny never occurs ever again. The punishment for the jawans, no matter what the provocation, will be severe.

What is puzzling is that the punishment for the officers involved, does not seem to be as harsh. The fact that wives were invited to enjoy a picnic in an operational area when 105 mm arty firing practice was being carried out and was clearly out of order, has not merited any punishment.
The officers involved should have been charged for the following counts:
1). Wrongfully inviting their wives to an operational area.
2). Beating up the jawan, instead of taking action against him as per the procedures laid down. One can argue, that when the honour of ones wife has been challenged, the man concerned should be allowed to vent his fury. But this is the army and when the rules are stringent, it should be the same for all. Besides, the other officers should have helped handle the situation, rather then participate in the beating.
3). Not allowing the Sahayak to be taken for medical care. There are many examples in the Indian army of jawans laying their life on the line, for the sake of their officers or at their single command. How will jawans being commanded by such officers, be willing to charge in the face of death, at their command.

The officers involved should have also been punished severely and this too would have sent out a clear message. From all accounts class prejudice is creeping into the services and giving out fitting punishments to the officers, would have sent out the message, that such elitist behaviour will not be tolerated.

Lastly, the obnoxious practice of Orderlies or Sahayak, should be disbanded as soon as possible.
Last edited by mody on 31 Oct 2015 15:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby member_29089 » 31 Oct 2015 15:31

deejay wrote:Just a clarification - right and wrong may be discussed.

<cut>

The 'sahayak' system where the 'sahayak' is used by officers family unofficially needs to go - no two opinions about that. Staff attendants in forward areas may be justified based on responsibility handled by the officers.


The "sahayak system" is a reflection of the society. Every two-bit civilian's 2-wheeler & 4-wheeler is washed by someone else. Shoes polished by someone else. Shirts ironed by someone else. OK that may be due to poverty and masses of people willing to work for a pittance. Instead of saying "this system needs to go" what if a creative method is implemented where the military formally hires (either as contractors or employees) non-combatant household helpers? They may be cooks, repairmen, general household help etc etc. They may assign them or rotate them as needed. And make a rule that trained military persons shall not perform "sahayak" duties. This would eliminate the need for a "sahayak", create employment, and provide services to military staff and their families.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby mody » 31 Oct 2015 15:41

+1. Agree with you Gunter.

Not just the sahayak system but a lot of other support staff duties need to be given to contractors. I had an employee, whose father was in the army and worked as a carpenter. The army can certainly give contracts to professional agencies for such services. In the above case, my ex-employee and his family enjoyed official housing and all other army benefits till his father was alive and all the retirement benefits, post his fathers service days.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby wig » 31 Oct 2015 15:54

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 52311.html

Gorkha Regiments to raise more battalions

The Gorkha Regiments of the Army are raising additional battalions, with the first new battalion scheduled to be functional in April, 2016. The new battalions are part of the force accretions approved by the Centre for raising a new mountain corps and the ongoing organisational restructuring.
The First Gorkha Rifles (1GR) is raising its sixth battalion, which is undergoing training at its regimental centre, 14 Gorkha Training Centre (14 GTC), here.
“It is after 50 years that a new Gorkha battalion is being raised,” Lt Gen Ravi Thodge, the Quarter Master General at the Army Headquarters and Colonel of 1 GR, told The Tribune on the sidelines of the regiment’s bicentenary celebrations and reunion here.
Unlike in the past where Gorkha battalions comprised troops primarily from Nepal, the new battalion, designated as the Sixth Battalion of the First Gorkha Rifles (6/1 GR), will comprise Gorkha troops of Indian domicile, that is, those settled in the hilly regions of northern India and the North-East.
The Army has several Gorkha regiments— 1GR, 3GR, 4GR, 5GR, 8GR, 9GR and 11 GR, with five battalions each. The stipulated ration of composition of these regiments between Nepalese and Gorkhas of Indian domicile is about 70:30.
“The Army’s plans are that each Gorkha Regiment will raise an additional battalion, which will be done in a phased manner, beginning with 1 GR,” said Lt Gen Thodge. “We will be recruiting more Gorkha-origin troops of Indian domicile and Gorkha Regiments are envisioned to have a pan-India footprint,” he said.
Lt Gen Thodge also discounted reports that Gorkhas belonging to Nepal have been prohibited by political leaders in the country from joining the Army. “There is no such issue affecting the Gorkha troops and we are getting adequate recruits,” he said. “We are also raising the minimum educational qualification for Gorkha troops from matriculation to Class XII,” he said.
Many serving and retired officers and other ranks of 1 GR from India as well as Nepal are attending the bicentenary celebrations and reunion. Unlike in the past, no former British officers, who had served with the regiment in the pre-Independence era were present with the exception of Lt Col JP Cross, a Britisher settled in Nepal.
Raised by the British in 1815 at Subathu from the remnants of General Amar Singh Thapa’s forces following the Gurkha War that was fought between the Gorkha kings of Nepal and British East India Company, 1 GR has a rich history of campaigns undertaken around the globe.
A wreath-laying ceremony to pay homage to martyrs, a special sainik sammelan that was addressed by senior serving and retired officers and the release of a first day cover and a commemorative stamp marked the celebrations today.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby member_22539 » 31 Oct 2015 16:11

mody wrote:In roman times, in case of mutiny the whole unit would be decimated. This involved clubbing to death of all the soldiers involved, in full view of other soldiers.


Decimation involves execution of 1 in 10 of the soldiers/unit involved in the mutiny, by draw of lots.

From what I hear, it was quite effective as well and saves the trouble of raising a completely new unit.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby mody » 31 Oct 2015 17:14

Arun Menon wrote:
mody wrote:In roman times, in case of mutiny the whole unit would be decimated. This involved clubbing to death of all the soldiers involved, in full view of other soldiers.


Decimation involves execution of 1 in 10 of the soldiers/unit involved in the mutiny, by draw of lots.

From what I hear, it was quite effective as well and saves the trouble of raising a completely new unit.


Stand corrected. It was randomly choosing 1 in 10 soldiers and clubbing them to death, in full view of other soldiers. It was really brutal, and obviously had the desired effect.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Rahul M » 31 Oct 2015 17:28

GunterH wrote:
deejay wrote:Just a clarification - right and wrong may be discussed.

<cut>

The 'sahayak' system where the 'sahayak' is used by officers family unofficially needs to go - no two opinions about that. Staff attendants in forward areas may be justified based on responsibility handled by the officers.


The "sahayak system" is a reflection of the society. Every two-bit civilian's 2-wheeler & 4-wheeler is washed by someone else. Shoes polished by someone else. Shirts ironed by someone else. OK that may be due to poverty and masses of people willing to work for a pittance. Instead of saying "this system needs to go" what if a creative method is implemented where the military formally hires (either as contractors or employees) non-combatant household helpers? They may be cooks, repairmen, general household help etc etc. They may assign them or rotate them as needed. And make a rule that trained military persons shall not perform "sahayak" duties. This would eliminate the need for a "sahayak", create employment, and provide services to military staff and their families.


we cant wait around for the day when society improves for army to get rid of the sahayak system. it needs to go today and it couldn't be sooner.

also army should not hire civilian personal staff under any circumstance. officers can surely arrange for that out of their own pocket, like rest of Indians do.

the only place where a sahayak/batman still makes sense is on the frontline. forcing an officer to do every single personal chore himself would eat into time that could be put to better use. neither can he hire somebody on the LoC to do those chores.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Surya » 31 Oct 2015 18:03

thats a possible compromise - leave the Sahayak for deployment duties

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Hobbes » 01 Nov 2015 05:42

rohitvats wrote:The institutional memory in the Army is elephantine and such major instances are not forgotten. The unit and men associated with it will always be stigmatized. For now and forever. 4th Mountain Division was marched on foot from NEFA to Allahabad as mark of punishment for folding up during 1962 war. It was the supreme defense put up by this formation in Asal Uttar which redeemed its honor. But till now, soldiers know 4th Division (now a RAPID) as 'Punishment Division'.

Which to me is grossly unfair, and a cruel reminder of Nehru's ineptitude and Krishna Menon's failures. Brig. Dalvi's book Himalayan Blunder documents in excruciating detail the reality of 4th Div in 1962. If anyone was to be pilloried, it ought to have been Krishna Menon and his sidekick, "General" B. M. Kaul. I am surprised the Army brass allowed this to happen, when they knew full well the root cause of the failure and the names of those responsible.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby sankum » 01 Nov 2015 10:05

Servant class culture which is a remnant of British rule is to done away with in all sectors of government but there is full scale resistance to it from the ruling class.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Gyan » 01 Nov 2015 10:30

I just want to point out that even officers suffer due to mistakes of Jawans. In Delhi Ridge Rape Case, the whole Unit (with officers and all) was given punishment posting in Siachin.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby ashish raval » 01 Nov 2015 11:56

OK, so as to get in context can we know many of you have hung out and had lunch or dinner with board of directors, managing directors or ceos of your company aka leadership team (not management team)? If not then we cannot expect generals to eat with soldiers. Leaders can only mix with soldiers upto a point. Chanakya said as you go higher up in chain chances are that you will have people at your throat vieing for blood and topple you. So they keep engagement only into limited circles which are of same power.

This is age old tradition. Hierarchy, order and discipline has to be maintained and should not be transgressed. It is not even done in western military.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby SaiK » 01 Nov 2015 23:01

Image
Bagalkot's Mudhol Hounds to Give Indian Army More Bite?

BENGALURU: Mudhol hound, a popular dog breed from north Karnataka, may soon be competing with foreign breeds in the Indian Army to hound criminals and sniff out bombs.

Talks are going on between the Canine Research and Information Centre at Timmapur (CRIC) in Bagalkot district and Remount Veterinary Corps (RVC) of the Army to induct Mudhol hounds in the force. While CRIC is involved in the development and conservation of Mudhol hounds, RVC trains dogs for the Army and takes care of them.

There is a proposal to induct Mudhol hounds into the Indian Army. Talks are on, but are still in the beginning stage. Colonel K K Mishra of RVC has recently asked CRIC to provide more details about these hounds. If they find these dogs suitable for Army services, then the matter is likely to be taken up further,” Mahesh Doddamani, station in-charge of CRIC, told Express.
The proposal to induct the hounds into the Army was first mooted by commissioner of Union Department of Animal Husbandry, Dairying and Fisheries Dr Suresh Honnappagol, a Kannadiga, who worked as vice-chancellor of Karnataka Veterinary, Animal and Fisheries Sciences University, Bidar under which CRIC functions.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby rohitvats » 02 Nov 2015 00:16

^^^ A beautiful breed...very lively. Playful and highly energetic. My neighbor in Bangalore had one. And since I could not keep a dog at that moment, used to go over and play with it. Saw it as a pup and in no time it grew into this tall and lively dog. What a sight it used to be when the fellow ran along side my Yamaha at speeds reaching 40+ kmph.

But Army work, especially, sniffing IED and other stuff requires dog which have a relaxed temperament. And respond well to commands. That is why Labrador breed does so well in sniffing business. Not to mention German Shepherds which excel in temperament as well as ability to tackle hostiles. After all, it has the second strongest bite in Canine kingdom after Rottweilers.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Karthik S » 02 Nov 2015 02:17

^^ OT but GS are not second , I believe you saw that Rottweiler vs GS vs Pit bull bite force video. Turkish Kangals have the highest bite force followed by mastiff, then come rotties and others.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Thakur_B » 02 Nov 2015 07:32


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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Karan M » 02 Nov 2015 08:02

Kakkaji wrote:
Karan M wrote:A bunch of men losing their cool and assaulting a molester? Stupid.


Karan:

I am sorry but it was not just 'a bunch of men losing their cool'. These were officers of the Indian Army and the man was under their command. They should have followed army procedure for punishment instead of delivering street justice.

I am surprised that, out of the 4 officers on the scene, not one stood up for following the army procedure for delivering justice. I am sure the army justice system would have adequately punished a rapist. If they had placed the man under arrest and filed a charge sheet, things would not have escalated so muh.

When officers were not disciplined in their behavior, how can the Jawans be expected to maintain discipline?


Those men are from Indian society. Ask any man about what he feels about a molester & all this stuff goes out of the window unless folks are very rational and what not.

This is actually an issue WW - plenty of cases wherein men return from deployment see strangers around their wives/significant others and assault them. Stuff happens in the heat of the moment.

In this case the IA says it was a case of molestation. It would have sparked much higher emotions and clearly, lacunae in training that these officers didn't think of what to do rationally or didn't debate the aggrieved officer.

Similarly, those men who assaulted their officers were not behaving rationally either. One of "theirs" was attacked so they tried for revenge. Their was no "we heard his story and 160 people were convinced" sort of ridiculous theory which was being floated around.

However, that they attacked and almost killed the CO was inexcusable. Such behavior will not be allowed by any professional army.

In every army, the soldiers outnumber the handful of senior officers and hence the JCOs/NCOs act as a bridge to prevent such conflicts and one may well argue that by dint of their experience & role, they are actually more mature and expected to be so, than even some officers. In this case, even they jumped in with the mob.

Hence, the IA is using this case to send out a message and the regiment will mostly be disbanded.

Much needs to change.
Last edited by Karan M on 02 Nov 2015 08:56, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Karan M » 02 Nov 2015 08:09

Picklu wrote:No Karan. If we have to go to the root cause, then officers broke rule and brought their family to an exercise where the womenfolk had no business being present. To praphrase you, everything else flows from there. Even if the Sahayak is worst kind of molester and rapist, the fault lies with the officers.

Analogy here - you drive without license and someone else hits you. It is still your fault.


No Picklu, you are wrong. This "rule breaking" would be an issue if it was some sort of rule that nobody ever breaks such as hanging around near the guns at a firing range. If could very well be more of an old system which is ignored as are many other rules in the Army which make sense depending on the context (eg deployment in Rajasthan during Parakram as versus a small peacetime exercise).

Even so, the other ranks are supposed to respect the dignity of the officers women and children. Everything flows from the sahayak being of good character. Your example is pointless because there are MULTIPLE situations wherein rules will be relaxed and officers/ranks come into contact with each other thanks to the exigencies of real life and deployments. People travel, interact all the time.

If you drive without a license for the first time and the other guy is a habitual offender, both of you deserve to be behind bars for the benefit of society. The second one though is more dangerous. He has a license and is attuned to hurting people.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Picklu » 02 Nov 2015 09:36

Karan, the rules exist to prevent majorissues which happens very rarely. Most of the time, nothing major happens, is not a valid argument. Did army formally relax those rules? If not, then the officers are guilty of the worst consequences for their action. The consequence, most of time is minor, is not a valid ground for leniency.

As you yourself has said, in the driving analogy, both would be behind bars irrespective of who is more dangerous. Similar analogies are numerous. Most of the people, break law without consequence, most of the time, is not a valid argument in court of law when you actually got caught breaking a rule. You use your personal computer to connect to office network and a virus impacts only once out of a million time. You can be sure that when that happens though, you will loose your job as well as be liable for severe financial damage. Bringing guests where not allowed to is similar in nature. When nothing bad happens, it is tolerated as no harm no foul. But when something really bad happens, that breaking of rules should bear the whole consequences and after effects.

Here, nobody is asking for leniency for the rapist or mutineering jawans/NCOs/JCOs. Most of the forum members are aghast about the injustice where the brother officers were allowed to go with a mere slap on the wrist where they are all equal if not more culpable for what really happened irrespective of the moral character and action of the sahayak.

That really points to something dangerous about HR within the army.

Off course, this whole discussion is based on newspaper reports (multiple) that brother officers took part in severe beating of the jawan and prevented his hospitalization to cover up the beating till the jawans went berserk. If that has not really happened, then it is a different issue altogether.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby member_27581 » 02 Nov 2015 15:20

http://idrw.org/the-strange-silence-surrounding-an-indian-military-exercise

In late September, India’s media reported on a military exercise to be undertaken by one of the country’s three “strike” corps, 21 Corps. Since then, Indian military watchers have encountered only silence on the exercise. This is uncharacteristic of India, on two counts.

One, India has always undertaken such exercises with a flurry of publicity, even if the military details are necessarily kept under wraps. There is sense in publicity in that it reassures the public of a vigilant military; it is good for the government’s image as “strong on defense”; and it sends a deterrence message in the form of military readiness to India’s neighbor, Pakistan. Yet this autumn’s round of exercises is an interesting shift in India’s information strategy.

The silence could well be for a mundane reason: During October the formation moved into an exercise location in the desert sector and is undertaking preliminary training. The exercise proper could build up to its climax in the near future with the relevant publicity and the attendance of high-level officials such as the defense minister and Delhi-based military brass.

Nevertheless, thus far, all that is known is that 21 Corps is on exercise along with the remainder of Southern Command. Even the name of the exercise – usually a martial one and sometimes with mythological roots – has not reached the public domain yet; and therein is the mystery.

Two, this is the second exercise involving one of India’s strike corps in the same year; the earlier one being held in early summer, in which India exercised 2 Corps, alongside the “pivot” 10 Corps. In effect, two field armies have been exercised this year: South Western Command earlier, of which 10 Corps is part, and now the Southern Command.

Usually, India exercises one strike corps a year. This owes to reasons such as the cropping pattern in exercise areas only allowing a window in early summer along with budget limitations. To exercise a second strike corps in the second seasonal window in late autumn/early winter the same year is a departure that, while indicating more budget availability, also suggests urgency.

Why the silence and possible urgency attending this exercise?

It can plausibly be speculated that the lack of publicity so far owes to a statement made by Pakistan’s foreign secretary on the eve of Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif’s visit to the U.S., namely that Pakistan’s tactical nuclear weapons (TNW) have been acquired to deter and if necessary respond to India’s conventional operations.

Since strike corps operations are offensive and have strategic ends, their employment can be expected to flirt with Pakistan’s nuclear thresholds. Pakistan has now publicly acknowledged a low nuclear threshold. Therefore, for strike corps operations it can no longer be business as usual.

From India’s conventional doctrine and exercises, it cannot easily be discerned if India is sufficiently cognizant of the nuclear reality. Its doctrine is of post-Kargil War vintage, though officially adopted after Operation Parakram in 2004. Much water has flown under the nuclear bridge since, including vertical proliferation and the addition of TNW to Pakistan’s arsenal in 2011.

India’s military, in exercising two field armies and two strike crops this year, is indicating that it can activate the border theater, from the semi-developed terrain abutting the northern part of Rajasthan to the desert terrain in the south. Strategically, it is projecting to Pakistan that it is not deterred by TNWs.

Such muscle flexing cannot be seen merely as going about what armies normally do in peace time: train. This could well imply that India has an answer to TNW that enables it to believe that it can persist with conventional operations.

Thus far, India’s declaratory nuclear doctrine has been of “retaliation only” and predicated on deterrence by punishment. However, since this would be a disproportionate response to TNW and could trigger a strategic exchange, it is possible that India’s operational nuclear doctrine has shifted to “proportionate” response or “graduated” deterrence. That way it can provide nuclear cover for conventional operations by employing TNW in retaliation. This has been the thrust of the recent strategic debate in India.

The urgency of two field armies exercising in the same year consequently derives from India’s conveying to Pakistan’s military unmistakably that it continues to have options, even when confronted by a lower nuclear threshold.

At the same time, the accompanying public silence (at the time of writing) surrounding the exercise appears to be intended to keep the focus of both strategic analysts and the international community away from this message intended for Pakistan’s military.

Strategic analysts skeptical of the so-called Cold Start doctrine of 2004 have pointed to the truncation of the crisis response window that quick-off-the-block conventional operations portend as well as the subsequent nuclear dangers. With India’s next edition of the conventional doctrine of 2010 not in the public domain it cannot be critiqued adequately. The manner in which the military exercises unfold will offer clues as to potential nuclear risks. Keeping the lid on this aspect enables the military to go about its business without external scrutiny.

If strategic analysts are unable to blow the whistle for want of evidence, the advantage for India is the lack of alarm in the international community. Even India’s public is kept ignorant of nuclear dangers, allowing its politicians to enjoy the limelight from military prowess while obscuring the dangers.

India’s belief that there is a conventional reply for any mega-terror action from across the border has one positive: It could help deter any Pakistani covert intelligence engagement in any such action. However, the flip side is that should rogue or autonomous elements undertake such action, the two states could be at blows before peace has a chance to intervene. "Assuming the rogue elements are different from the state"

While both militaries apparently envisage few TNW mushroom clouds, they need to be forewarned that this will only be so if they mutually put in place de-escalatory measures

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby member_29190 » 02 Nov 2015 16:39

ranjan.rao wrote:

Thus far, India’s declaratory nuclear doctrine has been of “retaliation only” and predicated on deterrence by punishment. However, since this would be a disproportionate response to TNW and could trigger a strategic exchange, it is possible that India’s operational nuclear doctrine has shifted to “proportionate” response or “graduated” deterrence. That way it can provide nuclear cover for conventional operations by employing TNW in retaliation. This has been the thrust of the recent strategic debate in India.



If only these reporters understand there is nothing called "graduated escalation using TNW" ! Nukes are useless battlefield weapon.

We would be bonkers to believe that world would sit idle and let India & Pak lob a few TNW at each other. It will make TNW an accepatable battlefield weapon.

If Indian & Pak can use it, why would US & Russia not use it in their little wars? why waste men & materials flattening entire city blocks when a single TNW can efficiently do it?

Pak TNW will not stop our strike corps, but will give us a perfect excuse to finish our "60 year old problem" very efficiently.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby srin » 02 Nov 2015 16:44

They threaten us with their TNW and we should reciprocate with ours. Only thing is: for them, TNW is "tactical nuclear weapon", for us it should be "thermo nuclear weapon" :D

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby member_27581 » 02 Nov 2015 18:23

I for one feel that more than Indian leadership, it will be Pakistani leadership who will be scared to use these TNWs. Rationality no rationality Pakistani generals may not want their fiefdom evaporated by retaliatory strikes. This tactic was enough to deter M/s MMS and company, but current leadership means is clearly of different mettle and it means business.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby ramana » 02 Nov 2015 20:49

In future please include the writer's name for it can tell a lot about the article.

Its scaremongering article.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby member_27581 » 02 Nov 2015 21:18

ramana wrote:In future please include the writer's name for it can tell a lot about the article.

Its scaremongering article.


ranjan.rao wrote:http://idrw.org/the-strange-silence-surrounding-an-indian-military-exercise


Apologies, will take care in future.

Trying to atone past sins
Source: Diplomat
Writer: By Ali Ahmed

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Karan M » 02 Nov 2015 21:26

tells us the state of affairs. that's colonel rtd ali ahmed in all likelihood, from IDSA/CLAWS who is writing on an indian event as if he is a foreigner.
i have never understood this. respective countries journalists/analysts write about their nations attempting to portray their nations events in such a manner that the "stranger" outside understands them or empathizes. our equivalents act as if they are western intermediaries trying to understand a third party issue. strange.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby member_29190 » 03 Nov 2015 00:21

Quite surprised that this article is by Col Ali Ahmed! I have read his article in CLAW before on nuke issue befire and he is not a layman. He knows about the flaw in TNW

May be it is just meant as a propaganda piece, i dont know.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby sum » 03 Nov 2015 04:07

^^ That was a Indian author?

I just assumed it was a Paki guy going by the language and did a re-read only after reading the next comments about him being a IDSA fellow!


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