Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

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Gagan
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Gagan » 21 May 2016 06:23

Dunno if this has been posted in the past. This is a must watch video about the battle in the batalik sector during Kargil. Capt Manoj Pandey's attack on Khalubar top also described with maps of the area.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1rIkwAoZGg

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby ticky » 25 May 2016 12:19

6 Assam Rifles soldiers were killed in an ambush by Manipur miliitants 2 days back. It was CO's convoy that was ambushed whille returning from inspecting a landsilde. Place of ambush is in Joupi Chandel dist. Manipur. 1 Jco and 5 OR are the casualties. Militants suspected to have made off with atleast 1 lmg and few rifles before making their escape. Casualties on militant side not known

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby wig » 27 May 2016 18:41

Soldier kills four heavily-armed terrorists before being martyred
It was sheer grit and determination of 36-year-old Havildar Hangpan Dada that saw him fight valiantly at the 13,000-feet high Shamsabari range to eliminate four heavily-armed terrorists who infiltrated into North Kashmir from PoK before he laid down his life.
Having been posted at the high range since late last year, it was the team of Havildar, who is known as just Dada, which spotted the movement of terrorists in the area on Thursday and lost no time in engaging them in an encounter that went on today too.
Enrolled in the Assam Regiment of the Army in 1997, Dada was posted with the 35 Rashtriya Rifles, a force carved out for counter-insurgency operations, at present.
A senior Army official said on Friday that he was injured badly in the encounter as the terrorists who crossed over from Pakistan-occupied Kashmir(PoK) were having a slight height advantage.
He displayed raw courage, unflinching grit, presence of mind and with utter disregard to his personal safety and despite bleeding profusely, discharged his duties and made supreme sacrifice for the nation, the official said.
He charged at the spot where terrorists were holed up to ensure that two terrorists were killed on the spot and the third one after a scuffle today as they slid down the hill towards the Line of Control. One terrorist was shot dead by him on Thursday itself.
The official said that the presence of mind of Dada, a native of village Boduria in far flung Arunachal Pradesh, saved lives of his team members who were coming under heavy fire from the terrorists.
His body was being taken to his native village where the last rites will be conducted with military honours.
The Havaldar is survived by his wife Chasen Lowang, daughter Roukhin who will turn 10 on June 30 and six-year-old son Senwang.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 466759.cms

chetak
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby chetak » 27 May 2016 19:27

CUTTING NOSE TO SPITE FACE


CUTTING NOSE TO SPITE FACE
Friday, 27 May 2016 | Deepak Sinha | in Oped


To reduce revenue expenditure, look at civilians paid from Defence Estimates, not Services’s non-combat manpower

The Minister for Defence has recently announced the formation of an 11-member committee, led by Lieutenant General DB Shekatkar (Retd), to look into areas of overlap and convergence within the three Forces — the Indian Army, Navy and Air Force. The committee will also identify areas to “rationalise manpower”, examine possible areas of multi-tasking by troops and suggest ways to “optimise” combat potential by bringing in more technology instead of more boots.

This is to ensure that the burgeoning revenue expenditure, the monies spent on pay, allowances and pensions among other things, is brought under control so that more funds are available for capital expenditure, especially acquisition of modern weapon systems. As Bhartendu Kumar Singh of the Indian Defence Accounts Service points out, “The Accounts Branch of the Indian Air Force, for example, has 492 commissioned officers and 7,000 men catering to the pay matters of 1,60,000 officers and men in the Air Force. On a competitive note, the same can be provided by 300 people on the civilian side very easily.”

There can be no two opinions that such a detailed examination is necessary and must be undertaken periodically, except to suggest that the period of three months given to the Committee to complete its task seems grossly insufficient, if it is to do justice to this critical issue. In fact, one may even suggest that by restricting this examination only to the military, the Defence Minister has not gone far enough. The reasons for this are not far to seek. The MOD, for example, has sanctioned posts of 5, 85,000 civilians, which is more than the active strength of the Pakistan Army. The MOD spends more than Rs1,000 crore annually on pay, allowances and establishment of the Ministry of Finance personnel who are attached to it. The civilian-manned Military Engineering Services spends nearly double the amount of the work it does on its own establishment costs. The Defence Research and Development Organisation only utilises 39 per cent of its budget on research and development while the remainder is spent on establishment costs.

The burgeoning pension bill, which is expected to touch Rs60,000 crore this year after taking into account the sanctioning of One-Rank-One-Pension, is another problem. While reduction of manpower will certainly go some way in controlling this issue, the fact is that the per capita expenditure on 25 lakh military veterans and their kin amounts to approximately Rs1.5 lakh annually, while the four lakh civilians paid from the defence pension budget receive an average of Rs5.38 lakh a year, which will shoot up astronomically as and when the Seventh Pay Commission report is implemented.

These examples show that priority needs to be given to reducing civilian manpower paid from Defence Estimates, before reducing non-combat manpower of the Services. The fact is that civilian pensions, despite catering to one-fifth the number of military pensioners, make for approximately 36 per cent of defence pensions — and given our difficulties in ensuring employment, even populism suggests it is better to reduce civilians who cost five times more than to reduce the military.

On the question capital expenditure being given pride of place in our defence budget to ensure our Forces are adequately equipped, the fact is that this issue is much more than just adequate budgeting. Between eight to 13 per cent of the funds marked for capital expenditure remains unutilised. For 2015-16, this was as high as 13.4 per cent, amounting to returning Rs11,505 crore. This should count as criminal negligence, given the poor state of our weapons and equipment, on the part of those within the military responsible for procurement.

And this is where the issue gets complicated. The Government always shows its ‘firm commitment’ to national security by allotting adequate funds to the MoD but then manipulates the budget to cater to unforeseen situations. The Finance Minister cannot touch revenue allotments as those are fully committed but, with the active connivance of the MoD (Finance), he takes full advantage of the capital allotment to meet unexpected expenses. All bureaucratic measures are put to good use to delay or derail the procurement process, resulting in vast amounts remaining unspent.


Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar is known for his intelligence and clarity of thought but like one of his earlier predecessors, Krishna Menon, he too may find his reputation dented somewhat, if he looks at issues through blinkers and acts in haste. It makes little sense to cut off your nose to spite your face. To start with, instead of setting up new committees, he will do well to implement the report of the Naresh Chandra Committee and the recommendations of the Group of Ministers of AB Vajpayee Government.

(The writer is a military veteran and consultant with the Observer Research Foundation)

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby wig » 29 May 2016 07:22

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/cities ... 43676.html
13,000 Army troops carry out massive exercise
The Indian Army launched a massive summer exercise with troops over the complete month of May in the riverine terrain of Punjab, involving over 13,000 troops and several components of artillery guns, tanks and infantry combat vehicles as a part of its efforts to project its battle supremacy on the Western Front, said a spokesperson of Vajra Corps Headquarters, Jalandhar.
Under the aegis of Vajra Corps, all ranks of the Panther Division commenced collective training by honing up basic battle procedures and drills at tactical and operational levels. The troops built the momentum of training gradually with increased combat tempo involving rapid mobilisation and execution of battle plans in conjunction with the Air Force, said the spokesperson.
A large number of innovations and modifications carried out by units and formations to enhance combat power were validated in the field. During the exercise, intelligence, surveillance, reconnaissance and communication systems were put to test in a network- centric battlefield environment supported by required operational logistics.
“The exercise entered its culmination phase in May end and was witnessed by Western Army Commander Lt Gen KJ Singh. Beside interacting with soldiers and officers involved in the exercise, the Army Commander witnessed various battle maneuvers by infantry troops, mechanised infantry, tanks, artillery, special forces troops and surveillance detachments,” the spokesperson further added.
The focus of the exercise was to validate operational and transformational effectiveness of various formations of Panther Division and achieving joint and seamless coordination among all the forces in the Indian Army in a NBC Warfare scenario so as to deliver the enemy a lethal punch with full might at a lightning speed, he further added.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Singha » 30 May 2016 11:58

a cross border raid has been conducted into myanmar in retaliation for the recent attack in manipur.
reports speak of 8 terrorists killed and 18 nabbed(handed over to myanmar govt).

http://www.indiatvnews.com/news/india-a ... ush-331757

The camps where the action took place are located inside 16 km inside Myanmar.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby deejay » 30 May 2016 14:38

What a gallant soldier. What an inspirational and brave story. Another Martyr for a war with no end. A soldier ready to die for India thinking nothing of tomorrow, a wife, an 11 year old daughter and a seven year old son. Salute Sir! Many pranaams to the brave men and women of Indian Army.

http://www.arunachaltimes.in/mortal-remains-of-brave-heart-hangpan-dada-laid-to-rest-with-full-military-honour/

https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=Indian%20Army

Mortal remains of brave-heart Hangpan Dada laid to rest with full military honour
May 30, 2016

KHONSA, May 29: The mortal remains of brave-heart Havildar Hangpan Dada of the 35 Rashtirya Rifles was laid to rest with full military honour amidst thousands of mourners in his native village Borduria in Tirap district on Sunday. Dada attained martyrdom on May 27 during an operation against a group of heavily armed terrorists trying to infiltrate into Indian territory in the Naugam sector in Kupwar district, Jammu and Kashmir.
Gun salute by the personnel of 16 Assam Rifles and prayers were offered by the Catholic Priest, relatives and hundreds of mourners from all over the country.
Earlier, Chief Minister Kalikho Pul, Education Minister Wanglin Lowangdong, MLAs Kaling Moyong, Tirong Aboh, DC, Tirap, Commander, 117 Mountain Brigade Sanjoi Ghosh, CO, 22 Punjab Col. Ranjiv Patiyal, CO, 16 Assam Rifles Siddhu, Major R.S. Mohan, ‘A’ Coy Commander laid wreath for the martyr at Borduria Mini-stadium in presence of thousands of people from all walks of life.
Wreaths were also placed on behalf of the GOC, 3 Corps and GOC, 2 Mountain Division as a mark of respect to the departed soldier who made a supreme sacrifice for the Nation.
“In his supreme sacrifice, it is not just that Arunachal Pradesh has lost a brave son, but the nation too has lost a valiant soldier and selfless patriot. I salute the sacrifice that he has made in defense of our nation,” Chief Minister Pul said.
While assuring all possible help from the state government to the wife and children of the martyr, Pul handed over a cheque of Rs 20 lakhs to the wife of the brave soldier as ex-gratia and assured to provide education to the martyr’s son and daughter till graduation from the state government and would give promotion to the soldier’s wife who is already serving in Health and Family Welfare department. He also committed to name an important institution or a road after the martyr as a tribute to the brave soldier. He further urged the local administration to construct a befitting memorial in memory of the martyr that would stand as a beacon light to inspire the youth of the country.
Pul also said that he would write to the Prime Minister, Defence Minister and the Army Chief to recognize Hangpan’s supreme sacrifice.
“I know that no amount of compensation can bring back your loved one and compensate the loss. But, I want to assure that you are not alone in this moment of grief. The whole of Arunachal and the nation stands with you today and in the future too,” said the Chief Minister consoling the bereaved family.
If he (Hangpan) wanted, he could have avoided gun-fight upon sighting the terrorists. But he decided to take on catching them off-guard knowing the risks for the sake of the security of the country,” Pul said. “Through his bravery, late Hangpan Dada has brought great respect to Arunachal Pradesh and to Borduria village to where he belonged. Else Arunachal Pradesh is generally in the news only for wrong reasons,” he added.
Former Minister James Lowangcha Wanglat, public leaders, PRI leaders, senior civil and defense Officers and a sea of mourners attended the wreath laying ceremony. The martyr’s body was flown in yesterday from Srinagar by a special Indian Army helicopter.
Havildar Dada is survived by his wife Chasen Lowang Dada, daughter Roukhin (11) and son Senwang (7). DIPRO/Source


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Karthik S
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Karthik S » 30 May 2016 21:54

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 495649.cms

Eight militants killed in ambush by Indian army in Myanmar for the second time in a year

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby prahaar » 31 May 2016 11:19

http://zeenews.india.com/news/india/fir ... 90321.html

Major fire at India's biggest ammunition depot in Maharashtr (Nagpur). 17 dead. This is tragic.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Manish_P » 31 May 2016 18:47

So many casualties this time ! Horrible occurrence

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby rohitvats » 31 May 2016 20:25

As per news reports, ~130 tonnes of landmines got cooked off. And this would not be 1% of tonnage of ammunition held in a place like this.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby prahaar » 31 May 2016 20:45

Raksha Mantri said many people lost lives to limit damage. This is so sad.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Sid » 31 May 2016 22:10

These service men laid down their life for this country without even flinching once. Few in field, few in peace locations. We as a country will always be in debt to our forces.

RIP.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby jamwal » 31 May 2016 22:21

Isn't it the 3rd such incident in last 6 years or so ?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Karan M » 31 May 2016 23:43

prahaar wrote:Raksha Mantri said many people lost lives to limit damage. This is so sad.


yes, i wonder how much worse the issue became due to ostensible heat wave or due to storage facilities being underfunded @ such a time. IA has long complained about lack of storage for much of ammo which has to be stored outside.

added - col danveer singh of IDR notes the same things.

in between the usual cr@p directed at services (par for course amongst journos), note:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/afp/ar ... -fire.html

Colonel Danveer Singh, an associate editor at Indian Defence Review magazine, said ammunition was often stored out in the open at depots, making it susceptible to fire during hot summer months.

"We aren't short of ammunition or production capabilities but lack space to safely store them," he told AFP.

The facility, spread over 2,800 hectares (7,000 acres), is one of the largest in India and provides ammunition for the army, navy and air force. Trains transport stockpiles on kilometres of railways lines around its grounds, according to an expert.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Karan M » 31 May 2016 23:45

Sid wrote:These service men laid down their life for this country without even flinching once. Few in field, few in peace locations. We as a country will always be in debt to our forces.

RIP.


and those who survived. i hope DM monitors that aspect and their recovery is supported properly.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Kashi » 01 Jun 2016 04:50

RIP to the brave servicemen who laid down their lives trying to control the damage.

We must take a long hard look at our ammunition storage facilities. We can ill afford such accidents in the future.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Vivek K » 01 Jun 2016 06:11

It is sad that the lives of these brave men were lost son senselessly. Has the IA made changes to its storage systems to avoid a recurrence of such losses?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby sum » 01 Jun 2016 06:55

Titbit from article on DRDO:
Link

M. Natarajan, who had worked on the Arjun MBT programme, wept at a meeting attended by defence minister A.K. Antony and services chiefs. He had to be consoled by another DRDO veteran, A. Sivathanu Pillai. Natarajan said the Army top brass ridiculed his presentation on Arjun

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby member_22539 » 01 Jun 2016 09:34

sum wrote:Titbit from article on DRDO:
Link

M. Natarajan, who had worked on the Arjun MBT programme, wept at a meeting attended by defence minister A.K. Antony and services chiefs. He had to be consoled by another DRDO veteran, A. Sivathanu Pillai. Natarajan said the Army top brass ridiculed his presentation on Arjun


I wonder how the resident service apologists are going to rationalize this one.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby deejay » 01 Jun 2016 10:50

Arun Menon wrote:
M. Natarajan, who had worked on the Arjun MBT programme, wept at a meeting attended by defence minister A.K. Antony and services chiefs. He had to be consoled by another DRDO veteran, A. Sivathanu Pillai. Natarajan said the Army top brass ridiculed his presentation on Arjun


I wonder how the resident service apologists are going to rationalize this one.


That would be me Arun ji?

Anyways, read the whole piece - it is full of how Shri Reddy did not inform Shri Christopher and how Shri Christopher never invited Shri Reddy to meetings. The article is about issues within DRDO leadership. At the end as a segment on history sheet of Problems faced by DRDO chiefs of the article this is also mentioned and quoted here by Sum. Why quote only this?

Will the service baiters rationalize what's happening within DRDO?

If Arun ji is interested in bean counting for "lets blame the Services" on the Arjun Saga, I think a little search on BRF will throw tonnes of it.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby member_22539 » 01 Jun 2016 11:08

deejay wrote:That would be me Arun ji?


Nope, there are others who are more strenuous in their retaliation at any criticism directed at the services.

deejay wrote:Anyways, read the whole piece - it is full of how Shri Reddy did not inform Shri Christopher and how Shri Christopher never invited Shri Reddy to meetings. The article is about issues within DRDO leadership. At the end as a segment on history sheet of Problems faced by DRDO chiefs of the article this is also mentioned and quoted here by Sum. Why quote only this?


Yep, read the whole thing and having relatives in PSU's and other govt orgs, this is hardly a surprise. Such petty rivalry and ego battles are the norm.

deejay wrote:Will the service baiters rationalize what's happening within DRDO?


Nope, because no one feels the need to flay someone with no skin left. That these orgs are subject to such negatives is known and accepted.

Furthermore, we are not really service baiters. We do not hate or criticize the soldier, but we do have a few choice words for the DGMF who wrecked the Arjun program. It is no use feeling defensive about that. Such criticism is more than well-deserved.

deejay wrote:If Arun ji is interested in bean counting for "lets blame the Services" on the Arjun Saga, I think a little search on BRF will throw tonnes of it.


Have been following this sordid story for years on BRF and otherwise. I have only had it add to my anger at the DGMF and their apologists.

Sadly, I think such an experience has prejudiced many patriots (including myself) to view any rejection/revision of indigenous projects by the services as suspicious and unfair (while most foreign products never go through the same).

Only severe punishments and a sustained visible support of indigenous products will remedy this.

Of course, the MOD and politicians are equally and more responsible for this, but please pardon me if I hold the services at higher standards than them.


PS: I have a high regard for your opinion and your experience. Please do not take any of my statements as a personal criticism. My most fervent wish was to join the very same services I sometimes criticize, but my health was never going allow that. End result is that I am a keyboard warrior lucky enough to hang out with real warriors like yourself on this forum.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby schinnas » 01 Jun 2016 11:25

Most of the work of DRDO can be privatised except for the super sensitive areas. If the org size is small, the bar for entry can bet set up very high.

ISRO, while performing very well also should be restructured into research vs commercial launch units and the commercial launch unit fully should be privatised (we should have two private parties to foster competition). The current arrangement where only the sales and marketing of satellite launches is privatised is grossly insufficient.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby deejay » 01 Jun 2016 11:32

Arun Ji, I understand what you say. I am nothing more than a key board warrior today so there is no difference between us today. Service to the nation does not need a uniform and for me the debate has a relevance. IMHO, the bane of indigenous MIC is Indians not trusting Indians or Indians fault finding other Indians constantly. We never let develop a common ground.

What I was trying to highlight is that the article was more of a DRDO internal friction story. It is not about corruption but ego hassles. There was one mention of and IA vs DRDO thing (A relatively old issue). It is related to Arjun. The IA has drawn its criticism on the subject and probably even this episode would have been discussed. The person linking the article opted to quote only this point from an entire article. If DRDO feels that all such issues in the past need to be addressed, this needs to be taken up in MOD. Also, it will be quite a challenge for DRDO and Services to settle old scores and get back to "Love All". I can assure you, there are similar stories from Services side.

The Arjun saga and IA's role is something I have not been a fan of. I've probably posted about in the past. My objection is that people are hunting for blaming services. IA/IAF more so. Where criticism is justified and / or debatable we have all taken are reasoned positions. Here, I felt it was selective and incorrect to link an article which discussed something else but quote the part which suits a narrative which one might have preferred.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby sum » 01 Jun 2016 11:37

^^ Deejay saar, the quote was in this thread since it direclty related to IA and just a tit-bit which wasnt really known (about the top brass "strong critisism" of the MBT programme which caused the head of the project to openly shed tears ). The story by itself was quoted in the DRDO dhaaga.

It is not to start a flame war but just a data point from the not very recent past. Apologies if it comes across as some narrative being set etc. If there was anything good/bad about IA being mentioned in any article, i link it to this thread as it concerns IA ( no judgement on good/bad)

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby deejay » 01 Jun 2016 11:44

^^^ Fair enough. I posted in response to Arun Ji. Based on my yesterday's interaction on another thread, I felt it was meant for me.

So peace. :)

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby chetak » 06 Jun 2016 10:46

Nandini ‏@_NAN_DINI May 31
A story that will make you smile -

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby wig » 06 Jun 2016 12:51

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/commen ... 47339.html

Reducing flab in armed forces by Gen V P Malik (retd)
Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has set up a 12-member committee headed by Lieut-Gen DB Shekatkar (retd) to suggest structural changes in the Army, the IAF and the Navy on cutting down flab and reducing revenue (maintenance) expenditure. Its recommendations will entail doing away with posts that may have become redundant due to technology, and to ensure that addition of new equipment (modernisation) does not mean a corresponding rise in the personnel strength of the forces.
Parrikar has two important reasons for ordering this study. One is the ever-increasing revenue expenditure on manpower which leaves less than 20 per cent of the defence budget for weapons and equipment modernisation. The other is the advice from Prime Minister Narendra Modi. In his address at the Combined Commanders' Conference in December 2015, Modi had said, “At a time when major powers are reducing their forces and rely more on technology, we are still constantly seeking to expand the size of our forces. Modernisation and expansion of forces at the same time is a difficult and unnecessary goal.” Articulating global, regional and national strategic environment and politico-military concerns, the Prime Minister exhorted the Defence Minister and the military commanders to promote "jointness" across every level, shorten the tooth-to-tail ratio, and re-examine assumptions that keep massive funds locked up in inventories.
There is no doubt that budgetary constraint is the primary reason for this decision. As a percentage of the GDP, the defence budget has been decreasing over the last decade. This year there was an increase of 1.16 per cent on the basis of the budget estimate of FY 2015-16. Calculated against the revised estimates (Rs 18,295 crore was surrendered by the Ministry of Defence), it works to an increase of 9 per cent. This allocation does not cover the rate of inflation, fall in the value of the rupee against the dollar, and the sharply increasing cost of weapons and equipment all over the world.
Due to the “One Rank, One Pension” scheme, the pension bill will increase substantially. With implementation of the Seventh Pay Commission recommendations, salaries, allowances and establishment charges of all civil and military personnel, paid from the defence budget, will shoot up. Recently, Defence Secretary G. Mohan Kumar admitted to the Standing Committee on Defence that “India’s military spending for FY 2016-17 is not as per the requirements of the services.” Unless the government hikes the defence budget, which is very unlikely, the Ministry of Defence would face a serious resource crunch to make up huge deficiencies of weapons, equipment and ammunition. Any force modernisation will remain a dream.
We faced a similar situation in the late 1990s. As Army Chief, I decided to suppress 50,000 manpower (mostly from non-field force) over a period of three years, provided the money saved would be given to the army for capital purchases. D B Shekatkar, then a Major-General, heading Perspective Planning Directorate, worked on details in consultation with the heads of arms and services, principal staff officers and army commanders. There was considerable opposition within the army and outside. After obtaining approval and a written commitment on the savings from the Cabinet Committee on Security, we implemented the scheme for two years. The Kargil war put an end to that scheme in its third year.
The Indian army today is the third largest in the world with over 38,000 officers (sanctioned strength is 49,631 officers) and 11.38 lakh soldiers. Cadre reviews and implementation of the Ajai Vikram Singh report has made it top-heavy with bloated headquarters. This is definitely not in line with modern defence management to win short and swift wars.
Incidentally, India is not alone in its attempt to trim its armed forces and improve the teeth-to-tail ratio. In the last decade, all major armed forces of the world have attempted such exercises and made deep cuts in manpower — the most important and costliest military resource. In 2012, the UK announced a 20 per cent cut, reducing the strength of its army to 82,000 combatants by the end of this decade. The Russian army has done away with large size divisional headquarters to make itself a quick-strike, lean force. The US army has announced a reduction of strength by a whopping 80,000 by 2017 to “reduce the overall number of headquarters, while sustaining as much combat capabilities as possible.” China’s recently announced military reforms envisage a cut of 300,000 personnel in its 2.3 million PLA forces by 2020. The idea is to “remake the PLA from a manpower intensive force to a smaller, technologically able and mobile force capable of combat beyond its geographical borders.”
Over the last decade, India's armed forces have absorbed a fair amount of technological developments, including communications and digitisation. Manpower intake is better educated, savvy on computers and smart phones. Most of them have driving licences. But the resultant organisational changes, shedding of redundant establishments and manpower savings have seldom been attempted by the army. On many of these issues, there is a lot to be learnt from the best practices of the private sector.
In the past, many units were raised to meet special operational circumstances of that period e.g. Rashtriya Rifles for Punjab. A review to examine the need or quantum of such forces is overdue.
Meanwhile, there is considerable scope for downsizing forces in areas which are not of operational importance, and to reduce the flab. Some suggestions which require further study are:
•By further improving jointness amongst the forces, there is scope to cut down duplication (sometime triplication) of logistic (medical, supplies, station duties) and security resources.
•Reducing size of headquarters, particularly of field formations, training establishments and shedding redundant establishments.
•Merger and pruning of logistic units and training facilities of the army like the EME, Ordnance, Army Service Corps, Army Education Corps, and so on.
•Clubbing of non-essential unit functions such as Military Farms and Army Postal Service, or outsourcing their functions.
•A review of all peace establishments.
•Multiple use of lands/facilities wherever units and formations are in close proximity to each other.
With the development of the automobile sector and availability of civilian repair and maintenance infrastructure in forward areas, this requirement of the armed forces fleet can be outsourced, or even better, contracted with vehicle manufacturers.
The flab is not only within the military. Civilian organisations like the ordnance factories, defence PSUs, DRDO, the MES, the Defence Estate, and the Armed Forces Headquarters Civil Services, paid from the defence budget, also need to be trimmed. With the Indian private sector coming of age and contributing more for the defence, and greater opportunity to outsource services, these organisations should be included in the flab reduction exercise.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby rohitvats » 06 Jun 2016 18:35

A good article which analyses the ground situation in eastern Ladakh. And for a change, rather than have high sounding 'strategic' nonsense, we've some hard data to go with analysis.

http://www.dailyo.in/politics/indian-army-china-pla-ladakh-xi-jinping-aksai-chin-nefa-1962-war-pakistan-siachin-daulet-beg-oldi-tibet/story/1/10944.html

This article has been co-authored by Ravi Rikhye and Mandeep Singh Bajwa.

East Ladakh was so isolated and so lightly patrolled by Indian police that only in 1957 did India realise the Chinese had occupied the region. An Indian Army officer, who photographed parts of the Aksai Chin highway cutting across Ladakh, was disbelieved by Army HQ.

Because of increasing problems with China, the Army asked for three additional divisions and one-two independent brigades. The division for Ladakh was to have four strong brigades.

New Delhi reluctantly sanctioned just one division for NEFA (North-East Frontier Agency) and one independent brigade for Ladakh with two militia battalions.

Resigned to the government's inaction, the Army asked for five regular battalions for 114 Brigade. Instead it got two. The second did not even arrive until the outbreak of the war.

As the 1962 disaster, unfolded, HQ 3rd Division was raised at Leh; HQ 114 Brigade moved to Chushul, HQ 70 Brigade arrived from the west Kashmir front, as also 163 Brigade.

Prior to the 1971 War, India withdrew 163 Brigade to the Pakistan plains without replacement. Eventually, by the first decade of the 21st Century, India had only four regular infantry battalions supplemented by two Special Frontier Force battalions committed to the China front.

After we occupied Siachen, four of the six battalions were either inducting or de-inducting from 102 (I) Brigade at Thoise. The effective deployment against China was two battalions - a return to 1959. This shows India's acceptance of the de facto boundary with China, a wish to demilitarise the area, and to live in peace.

Instead, from about 2008 onward China began a long series of intrusions across the CFL (Cease Fire Line), pushing and provoking India. Possibly China wanted to pressure India into a formal acceptance of the Ladakh CFL.

Possibly as it grew in power, China, which is extremely contemptuous of India, simply wanted to show that we are only a vassal of the Middle Kingdom.

Whatever the reason, India authorised a build-up of its long-neglected northern border forces. As is always the case with India, instead of providing a force-level required by the circumstances, the government equivocated, hemmed and hawed about the money, and most amusingly, worried about provoking China. This is akin to worrying about angering the intruders who come into your house whenever they want.

Nonetheless, India has built up to what the Army wanted in 1959 and then some. A corps reserve brigade from west Kashmir was given to 3 Division to strengthen defences south of the Changchemo River, making three brigades instead of two.

A new brigade was raised north of the river. A new armoured brigade is under raising. Mandeep Singh Bajwa will explain its rationale in a subsequent article. And HQ XIV Corps is getting a new brigade to function as a reserve wherever required in the theatre.

So from two brigades facing China, India has now raised/inducted four new brigades, effectively tripling its resources for the China front. So it seems the Chinese are not really as clever as they think they are, because for no reason they have created a threat where none existed.

The new raisings, however, do not end India's requirements. No one ever won a war by relying on the pure defence. The Army has always known this, which is why it has requested a mountain strike corps for Ladakh and Kashmir.

Further, there is an urgent requirement for a brigade at Daulet Beg Oldi (DBO) with its own armour component. The new armoured brigade has to be reserved for east Ladakh.

Given that China is motorising or mechanising all its mountain troops, Daulet Beg Oldi, which has no natural defences, becomes difficult to protect. A new brigade at DBO means a new division HQ north of the Changchemo.

China's GDP today is $10-trillion, four times ours. In 1980, our countries were equal at $500-billion each. China's announced defence budget is four times ours.

Chinese expansion across all its frontiers is swift and aggressive. It stations only three brigades in Tibet proper, and a division close to east Ladakh. But it is building a formidable series of railroads in the region that will permit rapid reinforcement.

Its ground forces are shifting from a defensive to an offensive posture. Instead of doing what is needed, Delhi has cut back its GDP spending on defence to less than 1.7 per cent, showing remarkable negligence in protecting our country which is now threatened on all its frontiers.

Far from sanctioning the second mountain strike corps, Delhi is coming up with every excuse possible to cancel it altogether. More on this another time.

And Delhi is also as usual proceeding at an excruciatingly slow pace in constructing roads and railways.

The scandal about our failure to modernise our military is now globally discussed. Which then raises the question: will India need another Chinese lesson before we start taking our northern defence seriously?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby srai » 06 Jun 2016 19:24

^^^

Current (and foreseeable) defense budget is not going to be sufficient for manpower increase. Rather, a question should be asked on how existing units could be reorganised/re-equipped to give them more mobility and increase their offensive capabilities?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Avik » 07 Jun 2016 03:29

A good article which analyses the ground situation in eastern Ladakh. And for a change, rather than have high sounding 'strategic' nonsense, we've some hard data to go with analysis.


Rohit- great article from R Rikhye, as usual. Interesting nugget about the second MSC. I guess the concept was always to use the new divs at Panagarh and Pathankot as the nucleus for the two MSCs. There was some buzz a while back about the Pathankot div, but I guess that has now died down given that XVII itself is struggling

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby srai » 07 Jun 2016 18:51

^^^

That article itself had one "indirect" solution for India ... do it like the Chinese. Build infrastructure and equip formations so that they allow for rapid reinforcement all over India. Other is paradigm shift from specialised geo-bounded formations of either defensive or offensive in nature to ubiquitous ones ... why not make all formations (brigade/division level) capable of both defense and offense? How about some highly motorised brigades that can self-deploy anywhere in India within 24-72 hours using existing road networks? The IA needs to be able to rapidly mirror Chinese deployments i.e. if they start moving troops to border areas, India should also have that capability to rapidly move equal number of troops to those areas. Infrastructure development on the Indian side needs to overcome difficult geography to allow for such movements all year round.

...
Chinese expansion across all its frontiers is swift and aggressive. It stations only three brigades in Tibet proper, and a division close to east Ladakh. But it is building a formidable series of railroads in the region that will permit rapid reinforcement.

Its ground forces are shifting from a defensive to an offensive posture.
...

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Aditya G » 08 Jun 2016 02:48

Viz-a-viz deployment on the Tibet frontier.

We should also count:

- Our heavy troop presence in Sikkim.
- ITBP deployment which is similar to IA deployment pattern Pre-1962
- New Corps HQ raised specifically for Ladakh frontier
- Ladakh Scouts raised
- Arunachal Scouts raised
- IAF has activated multiple ALGs in both sectors
- Rohtang tunnel under construction

Surely all is not unwell?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby sum » 08 Jun 2016 05:59

Bit dated but had this been posted earlier?
War game quells doubts on new corps

Quelling fears about its raising, the Army’s mountain strike corps — which is aimed at countering threats from China — concluded its war-gaming exercise last month focusing on various scenarios emerging from the recent changes in Chinese military organisation and strategy. While details of the war-gaming exercise of under-raising 17 Corps are classified, its conduct, sources said, showed that the Army’s newest corps was moving towards operationalisation.

Concerns about the new corps were raised after Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar announced last May that lack of resources was likely to slow down the raising of the corps.

Meanwhile, sources in Army confirmed that the raising of the corps was proceeding as per the original schedule. The mountain strike corps is currently headquartered at Ranchi in Jharkhand. “We have not received any political direction to slow down the raising. We are supposed to raise 250 headquarters and units for this corps, out of which 75 have already been raised. Raising of another 75 is in progress, and the balance 100 will also be raised as per plan by 2021,” a senior Army official said.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby deejay » 08 Jun 2016 09:30

Aditya G wrote:Viz-a-viz deployment on the Tibet frontier.

We should also count:

- Our heavy troop presence in Sikkim.
- ITBP deployment which is similar to IA deployment pattern Pre-1962
- New Corps HQ raised specifically for Ladakh frontier
- Ladakh Scouts raised
- Arunachal Scouts raised
- IAF has activated multiple ALGs in both sectors
- Rohtang tunnel under construction

Surely all is not unwell?


I think it is just a capability build up to act as deterrent to Chinese adventurism. 02 years ago, the border violations in summer by the Chinese was very frequent. I have hardly seen reports on these recently.

One of the biggest challenges to deployment in Laddakh / Tibet or those altitudes is acclimatization. This acclimatization is not a 01/02 day affair like that in tourism to Leh. With experience and research, we have a formula of 06 months acclimatization prior to induction, 06 months of high altitude deployment and 06 months in de induction. This is not a line drawn with permanent marker in terms of time lines or practice everywhere but should give you an idea.

So, all the chatter of quick swap from plain X to mountain Y is laughable. The way to look at it (just a humble suggestion) - It is not the number of troops that is being increased, it is fighting ability in the mountains that is being improved. Does that justify increase in size of IA manpower? IMHO, IA is best source or authority on this question. Can we afford it? The political and military situation will dictate answer to that.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby srai » 08 Jun 2016 12:22

Right, same should be pointed out to Ravi Rikhye and Mandeep Singh Bajwa who are writing about the Chinese doing the "rapid reinforcement" to Tibet and Ladak regions ;)

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby deejay » 08 Jun 2016 13:55

^^^ The Chinese troops are already in Tibet and at altitude in those numbers. Perhaps you should check a map.

Anyways thanks for your enlightening advice.

Ravi Rikhiye and Shree Bajwa talk of rapid redeployment possibilities because of existing infrastructure. I did not see any example on how they will do it with their troops. The infrastructure can move equipment but fresh fighting men will take time. It is physiological requirement and not some wishful thinking. Anyone who takes a short cut, whether Chinese or Indian will suffer the consequences.

Unfortunately, our policy makers in MOD are also like you and it takes forever and a disaster to make them see. All they need is a Ravi Rikhye article which they failed to see for what it was stating.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby srai » 08 Jun 2016 14:41

In their article they mention that Chinese only have 3 brigades in Tibet proper and one division near east Ladakh.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby deejay » 08 Jun 2016 15:26

srai wrote:In their article they mention that Chinese only have 3 brigades in Tibet proper and one division near east Ladakh.


srai ji, Tibet is a very large area. It has also some very anti Chinese population. They have much more than 3 brigades in Tibet.

My understanding is that these 03 brigades and 01 Division are actively deployed on the border with India. There are other formations further back. However, if we take the article as the data source even then you missed the reasoning which is being forwarded.

Given that China is motorising or mechanising all its mountain troops, Daulet Beg Oldi, which has no natural defences, becomes difficult to protect. A new brigade at DBO means a new division HQ north of the Changchemo.

China's GDP today is $10-trillion, four times ours. In 1980, our countries were equal at $500-billion each. China's announced defence budget is four times ours.

Chinese expansion across all its frontiers is swift and aggressive. It stations only three brigades in Tibet proper, and a division close to east Ladakh. But it is building a formidable series of railroads in the region that will permit rapid reinforcement.


So 03 full brigades in Tibet proper and 01 Division close east Laddakh plus other ancilliary missile units and centers it has spread across Tibet. Plus they have infrastructure to move armour, arty and mech across their territory.

Against that we have lesser infrastructure and DBO is fully exposed without any mech or armour support. Even in Laddakh the Chinese have a Division. Further, our deployment / manning should have an objective. That objective could be to deter aggression, hold off advances in case of aggression or retake lost territories (Aksai Chin, Eastern Laddakh) when there is a flare up. Present manning / formations deployed from our side were adequate in a non mechanised situation (IMO).

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby deejay » 08 Jun 2016 15:35

PLA has recently reorganised itself from 07 Zones to 05 Theater commands and it has a major impact on Indian preparedness. China has shown repeatedly its ability to think and move faster in terms of offensive preparedness:

> Military Deployment
> Infrastructure Development
> Strategic Planning

This has allowed them to dictate the agenda and ground situation while we are being reactive.

Here is an assessment from VIF on the reorganisation:
http://www.vifindia.org/article/2016/february/04/pla-reform-reorganisation-restructuring-and-implications-for-india

...
Implementation has moved rapidly since the beginning of January 2016. Creation of two new services, namely the PLA Army (PLAA) and the PLA Strategic Support Force, along with their separate Headquarters and Commanders, have been formalised. The Second Artillery, or strategic force, has essentially been renamed the PLA Rocket Force. Fifteen organisations including major departments like the General Staff Department (GSD), General Political Department (GPD), General Logistics Department (GLD) and the General Armaments Department (GAD) have been absorbed directly into the Central Military Commission (CMC). Of these, the Political Department is already receiving noticeably more importance, indicating that the CCP leadership is determined to ensure that PLA officers are ‘politically reliable’ and that the PLA remains the Party’s army.

...


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